Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Hi all, With regards to some of the attitudes about M.D.s recently posted on this forum (in response to the back pain study), I'd like to share a different point-of-view... Hope you will bare with me. (if not, skip down to the fun videos at the bottom!) --- For the benefit of our patients and our profession, we have got to move away from this " us vs. them " mentality. The mindset bashing on M.D.s with their 140hr training will only create more conflict and keep us on the fringe of mainstream medicine. If we are to move out of this " sick society " into a healthy, harmonious, and integrated system, then we must start by setting the example with our own attitudes and behaviour. We must see MDs as friends/allies, not as enemies. They have the potential to be either, and it is up to us TCM doctors to set the tone. In my opinion, it's wonderful that some MDs are getting a little acupuncture training. If it means that they may try a needle treatment for simple pain relief rather than prescribing drugs, then as long as they're not causing harm (such as puncturing an organ), the patient is probably better off, even if the points are not elegantly chosen. Also from a business perspective, this will undoubtedly get people curious about acupuncture, which in turn will grow the total acupuncture market. Even if we have less than 100% market-share, the total pie will be much bigger. It'd also mean that patients are taking less drugs and trying more natural medicine options. In the grand scheme of things, this could be very good for patients, TCM doctors, and society in general! While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited training may mis-represent the true power of our medicine, my experience has been to the contrary. My experience has been that MDs interested in acupuncture tend to be more humble, genuine people interested in true healing, what you'd call " out-of-the-box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s who received just enough acupuncture training to understand their limitations and will refer patients to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when they are not able to deliver results themselves. I myself have been a very happy (and flattered ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships. Also if we don't like the way these studies are designed, then seek out training about research methodologies so that we can be eloquent in expressing these concerns to patients and M.D. colleagues. Or better yet, get a DAOM/PhD degree in order to develop more TCM-appropriate research protocols! Someone earlier made an insulting comment about how MDs have " no idea how to propagate Qi " . Surely this person is not alone in this sentiment. I urge all of us to not get too cocky thinking how much better we are just because we have a tiny bit more training. Let's consider the scale of amazing healers who have passed the medicine to us. Hua Tuo, Li Dong Yuan, Zhang Zhong Jing, etc... Compared to them, how are your acupuncture or herbal skills? surely many of us are closer to the 140hr M.D.s than we are to these TRUE Masters. Let us practice humility in order that we may be worthy heirs of their amazing medicine. As for ability to direct Qi, here's are a couple videos to help put things into perspectives -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM (especially watch near 5minute mark) (courtesy of my apprenticeshipbrother Ben Krieg. thanks ben!) Hope you find these videos motivating and humbling as I do. Now let us get back to the business of becoming the best darn healers we can be. With love & respect, Edith Chan DAOM Candidate -- Edith Chan, L.Ac. Phone: 415.298.5324 www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com <http://www.edithchanacupuncture.com/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Edith, Thank you for sharing the videos and reminding us all to be humble and harmonious. Peace to all. On 10/2/07, Edith Chan, L.Ac. <chineseherbs wrote: > > Hi all, > > With regards to some of the attitudes about M.D.s recently posted on this > forum (in response to the back pain study), I'd like to share a different > point-of-view... Hope you will bare with me. (if not, skip down to the fun > videos at the bottom!) --- > > For the benefit of our patients and our profession, we have got to move > away > from this " us vs. them " mentality. The mindset bashing on M.D.s with their > 140hr training will only create more conflict and keep us on the fringe of > mainstream medicine. If we are to move out of this " sick society " into a > healthy, harmonious, and integrated system, then we must start by setting > the example with our own attitudes and behaviour. We must see MDs as > friends/allies, not as enemies. They have the potential to be either, and > it > is up to us TCM doctors to set the tone. > > In my opinion, it's wonderful that some MDs are getting a little > acupuncture > training. If it means that they may try a needle treatment for simple pain > relief rather than prescribing drugs, then as long as they're not causing > harm (such as puncturing an organ), the patient is probably better off, > even > if the points are not elegantly chosen. Also from a business perspective, > this will undoubtedly get people curious about acupuncture, which in turn > will grow the total acupuncture market. Even if we have less than 100% > market-share, the total pie will be much bigger. It'd also mean that > patients are taking less drugs and trying more natural medicine options. > In > the grand scheme of things, this could be very good for patients, TCM > doctors, and society in general! > > While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited training may mis-represent the > true power of our medicine, my experience has been to the contrary. My > experience has been that MDs interested in acupuncture tend to be more > humble, genuine people interested in true healing, what you'd call > " out-of-the-box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s who received just enough > acupuncture training to understand their limitations and will refer > patients > to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when they are not able to > deliver results themselves. I myself have been a very happy (and flattered > ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships. > > Also if we don't like the way these studies are designed, then seek out > training about research methodologies so that we can be eloquent in > expressing these concerns to patients and M.D. colleagues. Or better yet, > get a DAOM/PhD degree in order to develop more TCM-appropriate research > protocols! > > Someone earlier made an insulting comment about how MDs have " no idea how > to > propagate Qi " . Surely this person is not alone in this sentiment. I urge > all of us to not get too cocky thinking how much better we are just > because > we have a tiny bit more training. Let's consider the scale of amazing > healers who have passed the medicine to us. Hua Tuo, Li Dong Yuan, Zhang > Zhong Jing, etc... Compared to them, how are your acupuncture or herbal > skills? surely many of us are closer to the 140hr M.D.s than we are to > these TRUE Masters. Let us practice humility in order that we may be > worthy > heirs of their amazing medicine. > > As for ability to direct Qi, here's are a couple videos to help put things > into perspectives -- > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM (especially watch near 5minute > mark) > (courtesy of my apprenticeship> brother Ben Krieg. thanks ben!) > > Hope you find these videos motivating and humbling as I do. Now let us get > back to the business of becoming the best darn healers we can be. > > With love & respect, > > Edith Chan > DAOM Candidate > > -- > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > Phone: 415.298.5324 > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com <http://www.edithchanacupuncture.com/> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 My sentiments exactly. I work with mds who refer me patients and are very pro TCM. --- <johnkokko wrote: > Edith, > > Thank you for sharing the videos > and reminding us all to be humble and harmonious. > > Peace to all. > > > On 10/2/07, Edith Chan, L.Ac. > <chineseherbs wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > With regards to some of the attitudes about M.D.s > recently posted on this > > forum (in response to the back pain study), I'd > like to share a different > > point-of-view... Hope you will bare with me. (if > not, skip down to the fun > > videos at the bottom!) --- > > > > For the benefit of our patients and our > profession, we have got to move > > away > > from this " us vs. them " mentality. The mindset > bashing on M.D.s with their > > 140hr training will only create more conflict and > keep us on the fringe of > > mainstream medicine. If we are to move out of this > " sick society " into a > > healthy, harmonious, and integrated system, then > we must start by setting > > the example with our own attitudes and behaviour. > We must see MDs as > > friends/allies, not as enemies. They have the > potential to be either, and > > it > > is up to us TCM doctors to set the tone. > > > > In my opinion, it's wonderful that some MDs are > getting a little > > acupuncture > > training. If it means that they may try a needle > treatment for simple pain > > relief rather than prescribing drugs, then as long > as they're not causing > > harm (such as puncturing an organ), the patient is > probably better off, > > even > > if the points are not elegantly chosen. Also from > a business perspective, > > this will undoubtedly get people curious about > acupuncture, which in turn > > will grow the total acupuncture market. Even if we > have less than 100% > > market-share, the total pie will be much bigger. > It'd also mean that > > patients are taking less drugs and trying more > natural medicine options. > > In > > the grand scheme of things, this could be very > good for patients, TCM > > doctors, and society in general! > > > > While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited > training may mis-represent the > > true power of our medicine, my experience has been > to the contrary. My > > experience has been that MDs interested in > acupuncture tend to be more > > humble, genuine people interested in true healing, > what you'd call > > " out-of-the-box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s > who received just enough > > acupuncture training to understand their > limitations and will refer > > patients > > to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when > they are not able to > > deliver results themselves. I myself have been a > very happy (and flattered > > ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships. > > > > Also if we don't like the way these studies are > designed, then seek out > > training about research methodologies so that we > can be eloquent in > > expressing these concerns to patients and M.D. > colleagues. Or better yet, > > get a DAOM/PhD degree in order to develop more > TCM-appropriate research > > protocols! > > > > Someone earlier made an insulting comment about > how MDs have " no idea how > > to > > propagate Qi " . Surely this person is not alone in > this sentiment. I urge > > all of us to not get too cocky thinking how much > better we are just > > because > > we have a tiny bit more training. Let's consider > the scale of amazing > > healers who have passed the medicine to us. Hua > Tuo, Li Dong Yuan, Zhang > > Zhong Jing, etc... Compared to them, how are your > acupuncture or herbal > > skills? surely many of us are closer to the 140hr > M.D.s than we are to > > these TRUE Masters. Let us practice humility in > order that we may be > > worthy > > heirs of their amazing medicine. > > > > As for ability to direct Qi, here's are a couple > videos to help put things > > into perspectives -- > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM > (especially watch near 5minute > > mark) > > > (courtesy of my apprenticeship > > brother Ben Krieg. thanks ben!) > > > > Hope you find these videos motivating and humbling > as I do. Now let us get > > back to the business of becoming the best darn > healers we can be. > > > > With love & respect, > > > > Edith Chan > > DAOM Candidate > > > > -- > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > <http://www.edithchanacupuncture.com/> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > The Four Reliances: > Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the > teaching. > As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words > alone, but rely upon the > meaning that underlies them. > Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the > provisional meaning alone, but > rely upon the definitive meaning. > And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely > upon ordinary > consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ______________________________\ ____ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 There is a huge difference between the support of neighborhood MDs-DOs versus the mega-corporate structures which RUN the large allopathic organizations. To believe that the German Acupuncture study was done by your local supportive MD is to be naive to say the least. Those who do the dirty work for the system ARE in fact enemies.......and that is not to say that your local MD is one of them who refers. Just about every MD, DO and DC who have themselves graduated a FULL acupuncture program themselves STRONGLY speak out against the 100 hour week-end warriors. So let's separate fact from fiction by making logical analogies. Richard .. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Edith and John, I agree completely. And what about the MD's and DO's who go for full training in acupuncture? Maybe some go for full training in TCM. I'm actually going to be one of them, I'm taking a few years off from full time practicing and starting school in January. The program will probably take me 4 years, by the end I hope the school will be offering a doctorate -right now it's a Masters program (nothing wrong with that but there are some schools now offering doctorates and their curriculum is much the same). Anyway it is very humbling the amount of information that I will need to learn. There are quite a number of us 'open minded western trained people'. Dr. Northrup is one of the 'famous' ones but there are more of us 'quiet not so famous' ones around. I think the two have to work together, I believe there is a place for both. I certainly wouldn't want acupuncture or herbs if I was having an acute MI or stroke, or in diabetic ketoacidosis, but I think the point is that at that point 'you've gotten the patient too late'. If we could only teach people to care for themselves differently, to open themselves up more spiritually perhaps we could avoid a good deal of the need for the 'high tech medicine'. I am however glad it exists, because I did need it once and it saved my life, and this was after going for holistic treatment and acupuncture and the acupuncturist even said 'you need surgery'. It's just as wrong to shun all western ideas as it is for them to shun TCM. I much prefer to start with natural alternatives over prescription medications. This is why I want to learn more as I really believe in the ability of the body to help heal itself and that the mind and the body are intensely connected, not separate parts to be medicated independently. I've also spent time and spoken with my patients about their lives etc. Anyway, I'm new and I hope I didn't totally just wear out my welcome. I can't wait to start school. I have a couple of books I want to read first that are spiritual but not tcm and then I plan on reading 'The web that has no weaver' as it was recommended to me to read before I start. Nancy Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Petra Buchanan Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:09 PM Chinese Medicine Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies My sentiments exactly. I work with mds who refer me patients and are very pro TCM. --- <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > wrote: > Edith, > > Thank you for sharing the videos > and reminding us all to be humble and harmonious. > > Peace to all. > > > On 10/2/07, Edith Chan, L.Ac. > <chineseherbs <chineseherbs%40gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > With regards to some of the attitudes about M.D.s > recently posted on this > > forum (in response to the back pain study), I'd > like to share a different > > point-of-view... Hope you will bare with me. (if > not, skip down to the fun > > videos at the bottom!) --- > > > > For the benefit of our patients and our > profession, we have got to move > > away > > from this " us vs. them " mentality. The mindset > bashing on M.D.s with their > > 140hr training will only create more conflict and > keep us on the fringe of > > mainstream medicine. If we are to move out of this > " sick society " into a > > healthy, harmonious, and integrated system, then > we must start by setting > > the example with our own attitudes and behaviour. > We must see MDs as > > friends/allies, not as enemies. They have the > potential to be either, and > > it > > is up to us TCM doctors to set the tone. > > > > In my opinion, it's wonderful that some MDs are > getting a little > > acupuncture > > training. If it means that they may try a needle > treatment for simple pain > > relief rather than prescribing drugs, then as long > as they're not causing > > harm (such as puncturing an organ), the patient is > probably better off, > > even > > if the points are not elegantly chosen. Also from > a business perspective, > > this will undoubtedly get people curious about > acupuncture, which in turn > > will grow the total acupuncture market. Even if we > have less than 100% > > market-share, the total pie will be much bigger. > It'd also mean that > > patients are taking less drugs and trying more > natural medicine options. > > In > > the grand scheme of things, this could be very > good for patients, TCM > > doctors, and society in general! > > > > While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited > training may mis-represent the > > true power of our medicine, my experience has been > to the contrary. My > > experience has been that MDs interested in > acupuncture tend to be more > > humble, genuine people interested in true healing, > what you'd call > > " out-of-the-box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s > who received just enough > > acupuncture training to understand their > limitations and will refer > > patients > > to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when > they are not able to > > deliver results themselves. I myself have been a > very happy (and flattered > > ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships. > > > > Also if we don't like the way these studies are > designed, then seek out > > training about research methodologies so that we > can be eloquent in > > expressing these concerns to patients and M.D. > colleagues. Or better yet, > > get a DAOM/PhD degree in order to develop more > TCM-appropriate research > > protocols! > > > > Someone earlier made an insulting comment about > how MDs have " no idea how > > to > > propagate Qi " . Surely this person is not alone in > this sentiment. I urge > > all of us to not get too cocky thinking how much > better we are just > > because > > we have a tiny bit more training. Let's consider > the scale of amazing > > healers who have passed the medicine to us. Hua > Tuo, Li Dong Yuan, Zhang > > Zhong Jing, etc... Compared to them, how are your > acupuncture or herbal > > skills? surely many of us are closer to the 140hr > M.D.s than we are to > > these TRUE Masters. Let us practice humility in > order that we may be > > worthy > > heirs of their amazing medicine. > > > > As for ability to direct Qi, here's are a couple > videos to help put things > > into perspectives -- > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drz-CMespEM > (especially watch near 5minute > > mark) > > > (courtesy of my apprenticeship > > brother Ben Krieg. thanks ben!) > > > > Hope you find these videos motivating and humbling > as I do. Now let us get > > back to the business of becoming the best darn > healers we can be. > > > > With love & respect, > > > > Edith Chan > > DAOM Candidate > > > > -- > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > <http://www.edithchanacupuncture.com/> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > -- > aka Mu bong Lim > Father of Bhakti > > The Four Reliances: > Do not rely upon the individual, but rely upon the > teaching. > As far as teachings go, do not rely upon the words > alone, but rely upon the > meaning that underlies them. > Regarding the meaning, do not rely upon the > provisional meaning alone, but > rely upon the definitive meaning. > And regarding the definitive meaning, do not rely > upon ordinary > consciousness, but rely upon wisdom awareness. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 This is a general repsonse! It seems like a lot of members of this forum are feeling victimized by the established medical community - there´s so much cynicism, crying and behaviour befit two year-olds not mature adults?! No need tto get hung up on what other people do or don't do, miscredit CM or not- Care about what YOU do and stop giving your power away to ideas about the big bad wolf... they are just that - thoughts. Let those limiting beleifs go and empower yourself! The only only who really needs to have faith in what you do is YOU - and the rest will follow..... Don't be afraid of greatness... and don't rub your shortcomings of on the everybody else. Assume responsibility thorugh your own personal integrity - YOU show what CM is truly all about. The guy who sells rotten apples cheap is not going to make it in lon run. If you are true to yourself and put your ego aside, let your true self shine through your passion (CM?) then it can't go wrong! And if it does go wrong then that's that - get back up on the horse... and don't whine! Bottom line: Don't blame anyone else for what is wrong in the world - take responsibility and " be the change you want to see in the world! " Thomas 2007/10/4, acuman1 <acuman1: > > I agree. The vast majority of those folks who take the limited lay > acupuncture course see their limitations, but enough of them do not and > provide > acupuncture that puts a bad taste in enough patient's mouths to spread bad > faith. > There are also a number who are entranced by acupuncture and become quite > good at > it, but these are the exceptions. The bad apples with minimal moral and > professional ethics are always those who ruin it for everyone. > David Molony > > In a message dated 10/3/07 12:59:36 PM, chineseherbs<chineseherbs%40gmail.com>writes: > > > While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited training may mis-represent > the > > true power of our medicine, my experience has been to the contrary. My > > experience has been that MDs interested in acupuncture tend to be more > > humble, genuine people interested in true healing, what you'd call > > " out-of-the- " out-of-the-<wbr>box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s who > re > > acupuncture training to understand their limitations and will refer > patients > > to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when they are not able to > > deliver results themselves. I myself have been a very happy (and > flattered > > ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships. > > > > " If in a competitive society you are sincere and honest, in some > circumstances people may take advantage of you. If you let someone do so, > he or she will > be engaging in an unsuitable action and accumulating bad karma that will > harm > the person in the future. Thus it is permissable, with an altruistic > motivation, to take counteraction in order to prevent the other person > from having to > undergo the effects of this wrong action. " > Dalai Lama > > David Molony > 101 Bridge Street > Catasauqua, PA 18032 > Phone (610)264-2755 > Fax (610) 264-7292 > > **********Confidentiality Notice ********** > This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other > writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information > that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure > under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe > Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are > responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data > integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the > intended > recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for > delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or > storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this information in error, please notify the sender by return > email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments > from > your system. > > ************************************** > See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 That's the only way to win this war, Thomas. Thanks for the wisdom. WM shot us down because it works. (their agenda can't advance to make people sicker) Like it or not, we (OM) are task repairing /cleaning up their mess. That's humbling enough. amy ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 What you must do is go after these people. Thats the way to deal with bullies. Belittle them and discredit them, run their reputation through the mud. And hit them where it hurts. Sue the heck out of them and hurt them where it really hurts them. Run them out of their profession, THROUGH ANY MEANS NECESSARY! YOU DO HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT! ________________________________> To: Chinese Medicine > aikinohari Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:51:56 +0200> Re: Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies>> This is a general repsonse!> It seems like a lot of members of this forum are feeling victimized by the> established medical community - there´s so much cynicism, crying and> behaviour befit two year-olds not mature adults?!> No need tto get hung up on what other people do or don't do, miscredit CM or> not- Care about what YOU do and stop giving your power away to ideas about> the big bad wolf... they are just that - thoughts. Let those limiting> beleifs go and empower yourself!> The only only who really needs to have faith in what you do is YOU - and the> rest will follow..... Don't be afraid of greatness... and don't rub your> shortcomings of on the everybody else. Assume responsibility thorugh your> own personal integrity - YOU show what CM is truly all about.> The guy who sells rotten apples cheap is not going to make it in lon run. If> you are true to yourself and put your ego aside, let your true self shine> through your passion (CM?) then it can't go wrong! And if it does go wrong> then that's that - get back up on the horse... and don't whine!> Bottom line: Don't blame anyone else for what is wrong in the world - take> responsibility and " be the change you want to see in the world! " > Thomas> 2007/10/4, acuman1:>>>> I agree. The vast majority of those folks who take the limited lay>> acupuncture course see their limitations, but enough of them do not and>> provide>> acupuncture that puts a bad taste in enough patient's mouths to spread bad>> faith.>> There are also a number who are entranced by acupuncture and become quite>> good at>> it, but these are the exceptions. The bad apples with minimal moral and>> professional ethics are always those who ruin it for everyone.>> David Molony>>>> In a message dated 10/3/07 12:59:36 PM, chineseherbs:>>>>> While there is a worry that MDs w/ limited training may mis-represent>> the>>> true power of our medicine, my experience has been to the contrary. My>>> experience has been that MDs interested in acupuncture tend to be more>>> humble, genuine people interested in true healing, what you'd call>>> " out-of-the- " out-of-the-box " thinkers. I've come across M.D.s who>> re>>> acupuncture training to understand their limitations and will refer>> patients>>> to a " real acupuncturist " for trickier cases when they are not able to>>> deliver results themselves. I myself have been a very happy (and>> flattered>>> ) beneficiary of such wonderful partnerships.>>>>>>> " If in a competitive society you are sincere and honest, in some>> circumstances people may take advantage of you. If you let someone do so,>> he or she will>> be engaging in an unsuitable action and accumulating bad karma that will>> harm>> the person in the future. Thus it is permissable, with an altruistic>> motivation, to take counteraction in order to prevent the other person>> from having to>> undergo the effects of this wrong action. " >> Dalai Lama>>>> David Molony>> 101 Bridge Street>> Catasauqua, PA 18032>> Phone (610)264-2755>> Fax (610) 264-7292>>>> **********Confidentiality Notice **********>> This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other>> writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended>> recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information>> that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure>> under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe>> Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are>> responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data>> integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the>> intended>> recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for>> delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby>> notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or>> storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have>> received this information in error, please notify the sender by return>> email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments>> from>> your system.>>>> **************************************>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>>>>> --> Althea Akupunktur> " Dit liv... Dit potentiale! " > Albanigade 23A, Kld.> 5000 Odense C> Denmark> Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26> > www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> _______________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Dear all, I think that there is all kinds of professions and all of them need practice. MD or nurse or anybody can render acupuncture and not only that we can prescribe any medications at our wishes... But when the worse or the worst arises who will be the blame? Of course, the unprofessionals. MD can do acupuncture, but is he a professional in this field? When he messes up, the medical board will point the finger to whom ? And if he find no resolution in his practice of acupuncture do we think he still give acupuncture good credit or only bad mouth ???????? If he cannot perform it, nobody can't ( this is his mind, MD )...... We need them in their skills and of their profession to work with us, not to perform our work.......... To me, if they are not educated long enough and possess no experience , they are not entitled to make any judgment against any of us ( they are not qualified ). The same thing, we cannot render any mecial prescriptions and make any judgments against any of them. Just as in a company, there are clerk, workers, personels, managers, supervisors each of them have their own skills and should develop their in own field, then work together. MD make no threat to us, but some of them can bad mouth just as one of us bad mouth to them... We should ignore those individuals. Find a good MD and work with them is our goal... CO-OPERATION will bring best result. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Thomas, I've also been thinking about the tone many take toward biomedicine. I have a hypothesis, which I'm preliminarily calling " Xiao Yao Syndrome. " (xys) Many acupuncture may be suffering from XYS. These are individuals who are attracted to the " alternative " aspects of alternative medicine. Now as an individual who grew up in the tradition of Transcendental Meditation in a small Iowa town, I know a thing or two about being alternative, especially in the eyes of fairly provincial Midwesterners. In any case, as a person who has found EFT immensely effective for clearing emotional blocks, I was fortunate enough to run across an article that addressed the frustrations EFT practitioners face in getting into orthodox settings. The author recommended that practitioners begin doing work on their feelings about authority. Tapping upon the universe of emotions relating to authority has greatly enhanced my relations with authority-- including police! The point here is that other's may also benefit from examining their feelings around authority as it relates to the medical " establishment. " My bet is this is not the first time you've felt this way. best health, y.c. http://vytalpathways.com ______________________________\ ____ Catch up on fall's hot new shows on TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! http://tv./collections/3658 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Thank you. Let's stop obfuscating the issue. I have nothing against MD's. I have something against a system that allows a person with very little training to be seen as equivalent to what I am. It only encourages the thinking that acupuncture is a nonspecific technique requiring no training. If that becomes the accepted wisdom, we are through, our profession is done, because every doctor's office will be able to provide a sham acupuncture treatment that does almost nothing, but is seen as the best that acupuncture can do. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies <Chinese Medicine/message/26941;_ylc=X\ 3oDMTJyZG9scmRzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\ 0lkAzI2OTQxBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTE0NjEwOTg-> Posted by: " acudoc11 " acudoc11 <acudoc11?Subject=%20Re%3A%20M%2ED%2Es%20as%20allies%20not%20enem\ ies> acudoc11 <http://profiles./acudoc11> Wed Oct 3, 2007 5:56 pm (PST) There is a huge difference between the support of neighborhood MDs-DOs versus the mega-corporate structures which RUN the large allopathic organizations. To believe that the German Acupuncture study was done by your local supportive MD is to be naive to say the least. Those who do the dirty work for the system ARE in fact enemies..... ..and that is not to say that your local MD is one of them who refers. Just about every MD, DO and DC who have themselves graduated a FULL acupuncture program themselves STRONGLY speak out against the 100 hour week-end warriors. So let's separate fact from fiction by making logical analogies. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Thomas - So you are saying that pointing out methodological flaws in a study which utilizes undertrained MD's to perform " acupuncture " is somehow immature? Or is it magical thinking, which seems to indicate that if we put our heads in the sand all will be well, that befits a two year old? The entrenched interests of Big Medicine will not go away. Our profession suffers from a lack of fight and strategy, not a surplus. The big bad wolf is real. The medical research community does not like us, and does not like acupuncture, the AMA does not like us, and so we are in a battle for ideas and legitimacy. Remember, it is very easy for the establishment to restrict what we do and make it impossible for us to practice, so long as they have a proper justification. Undercutting the legitimacy of training and the history of our profession is one such strategy for bringing acupuncture under the control of the medical system and making it very hard to do what we do. Anyone who thinks this is somehow paranoid or over the top needs to look at the struggles of chiropractic, homeopathy, nutrition, etc. in this century in the US to get an idea of what the medical institution would likely do to us if they had the chance. So yes, of course, we all need to be as good as we can be at what we do. But that does not mean pretending the political side of our profession is an illusion. THAT is immature.-Ben Hawes Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies <Chinese Medicine/message/26949;_ylc=X\ 3oDMTJydWJucTdxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ\ 0lkAzI2OTQ5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTE0ODgxMTc-> Posted by: " Thomas Sørensen " aikinohari <aikinohari?Subject=%20Re%3A%20TCM%20-%20M%2ED%2Es%20as%20allie\ s%20not%20enemies> thomasboegedal <http://profiles./thomasboegedal> Wed Oct 3, 2007 11:51 pm (PST) This is a general repsonse! It seems like a lot of members of this forum are feeling victimized by the established medical community - there´s so much cynicism, crying and behaviour befit two year-olds not mature adults?! No need tto get hung up on what other people do or don't do, miscredit CM or not- Care about what YOU do and stop giving your power away to ideas about the big bad wolf... they are just that - thoughts. Let those limiting beleifs go and empower yourself! The only only who really needs to have faith in what you do is YOU - and the rest will follow..... Don't be afraid of greatness... and don't rub your shortcomings of on the everybody else. Assume responsibility thorugh your own personal integrity - YOU show what CM is truly all about. The guy who sells rotten apples cheap is not going to make it in lon run. If you are true to yourself and put your ego aside, let your true self shine through your passion (CM?) then it can't go wrong! And if it does go wrong then that's that - get back up on the horse... and don't whine! Bottom line: Don't blame anyone else for what is wrong in the world - take responsibility and " be the change you want to see in the world! " Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Cheers Ben I was getting the feeling that very few see what is really going on and/or afraid to stand up and fight the big bad wolf and be prepared to be attacked in all sorts of ways. I was legally harassed and abused for some five years and in the end I THANKED the attacking side's LAWYERS for forcing me to learn law. As I may have stated in the past....it cost me $10,000 but the other side had to EAT over $500,000.00 in legal fees. Call it probono or whatever....no sucker to collect from. The lawyer responded in great fear that I should NOT thank them for placing me in such a quandry...and I said...if not YOU then WHO? Of course there was no answer because the " feudal lord " always stays hidden. They are too chicken to show their faces lest the truth be known. These hidden corporate types would rather blame their own rank and file and discard/dispense with their own puppets to protect their identity. Richard In a message dated 10/5/2007 12:50:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, bhawes writes: Thomas - So you are saying that pointing out methodological flaws in a study which utilizes undertrained MD's to perform " acupuncture " is somehow immature? Or is it magical thinking, which seems to indicate that if we put our heads in the sand all will be well, that befits a two year old? The entrenched interests of Big Medicine will not go away. Our profession suffers from a lack of fight and strategy, not a surplus. The big bad wolf is real. The medical research community does not like us, and does not like acupuncture, the AMA does not like us, and so we are in a battle for ideas and legitimacy. Remember, it is very easy for the establishment to restrict what we do and make it impossible for us to practice, so long as they have a proper justification. Undercutting the legitimacy of training and the history of our profession is one such strategy for bringing acupuncture under the control of the medical system and making it very hard to do what we do. Anyone who thinks this is somehow paranoid or over the top needs to look at the struggles of chiropractic, homeopathy, nutrition, etc. in this century in the US to get an idea of what the medical institution would likely do to us if they had the chance. So yes, of course, we all need to be as good as we can be at what we do. But that does not mean pretending the political side of our profession is an illusion. THAT is immature.-Ben Hawes ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 That German Acupuncture study was laughed at quietly by some at Harvard Medical this Wednesday/Thursday while reporting research and clinical experience on fascia. Some said trying not to be too critical.....that the study was faulted. Now that's an understatement. Richard In a message dated 10/5/2012:29:50 P.M. Central Standard Time, bhawes writes: Thank you. Let's stop obfuscating the issue. I have nothing against MD's. I have something against a system that allows a person with very little training to be seen as equivalent to what I am. It only encourages the thinking that acupuncture is a nonspecific technique requiring no training. If that becomes the accepted wisdom, we are through, our profession is done, because every doctor's office will be able to provide a sham acupuncture treatment that does almost nothing, but is seen as the best that acupuncture can do. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Touche, so how do you propose to fight? Whinning isn't going to do it, being disjointed as a group isn't going to do it. There are a lot of closed minds out there. I am third generation western medicine, my niece who is about to graduate will be 4th generation. I am going to take so much ****** flack to going into a TCM program, there will be jokes galore for who knows how long, but I am strong inside and strong in my beliefs so I will be able to handle it. I already see the reaction on collegues faces when I tell them, some think it's great and others you would think I had personally betrayed them. But what is the answer? And how do you stop the 100 hour weekend programs? I see them advertised in the health papers (actually I see more like 500 hour programs) and then I look at the fact that I won't touch a needle near a person for almost 2 years and it makes me fume with anger. However there is a nationwide exam and certification. Those 100 hour people can't possible meet the requirements to sit for that exam. Does the exam give you the ability to say you have particular certification? If so it becomes also a matter of patient education. There are some battles against the institution of medicine you will probably not win, though the walls are crumbling a bit with 'new discoveries' they are making about the mind body connection LOL. The journals are starting to fill with such articles. They write like they have discovered some new revolutionary idea instead of something that has been known for 1000's of years. I truly believe in the person who said you need to take pride in your work and believe in what you do and people will come to you. The problem becomes when people go for acupuncture by someone poorly trained and it doesn't work and then they declare it a 'bad treatment' I have heard this from patients often. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of acudoc11 Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:51 PM Chinese Medicine Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies There is a huge difference between the support of neighborhood MDs-DOs versus the mega-corporate structures which RUN the large allopathic organizations. To believe that the German Acupuncture study was done by your local supportive MD is to be naive to say the least. Those who do the dirty work for the system ARE in fact enemies.......and that is not to say that your local MD is one of them who refers. Just about every MD, DO and DC who have themselves graduated a FULL acupuncture program themselves STRONGLY speak out against the 100 hour week-end warriors. So let's separate fact from fiction by making logical analogies. Richard .. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 For one....I have never whined and I don't propose to anyone else to do anything. I act for myself going out into the world and standing up to and in front of the establishment whether that be in the legislative arena or judicial arena also making friends of those MDs who are open. And now in the scientific arena by presenting my little niche clinical experience in AP/OM over the past 13 years.....at the First Fascia Research Congress hosted at Harvard this past Thursday/Friday. There were several MDs who did the 100+ hour AP education offering all kinds of theories from the monies they received for research funding........ and you know what......they steered clear of me and would not engage in any conversation. One of them who saw my poster presentation of BaGuaFa walked away from the poster as she entered the poster presentation room. Later the next day I introduced myself to her giving her a business card and attempted to cordially engage her in conversation. She was silent. I made many contacts and new friends at this Research Congress and will now enter the system's sand-box of research......by applying for funding to perform credible research which then will not be able to be denied. And in the process you can bet there will be a pointing towards the ludicrous 100 hour week-end warriors - comparing their faulted research such as the acupuncture study released from Europe recently using 142 hour trained so-called acupuncturists. I said it years ago and maintain the position that the 100 hour people should call what they do as Chiro-puncture and Medi-puncture because other than using an acupuncture needle is has little similarity to the acupuncture taught in the majority of 4 year programs. As to the national exam......what you might not know is that many practitioners screamed for years until the NCCAOM stopped the loophole in January of 2001. Prior to that for some approximate 16 years they allowed anyone in without the appropriate education and to add insult to their so-called Board Certification as DIPLOMATE they have even been caught credentialing some who never sat for any test. We know of one such MD from New Jersey who on the basis of that Credential Document Review received an acupuncture license in Florida and there is still going to be hell for some to pay for that VIOLATION of Florida Statutes. So there are dirty hands in a lot of this. You fight one battle at a time until there is change. As to the institutions in western allopathic medicine such as the AMA.....in 1998 I spoke with one of the high-up MDs at the AMA who worked for the ABMS for many years prior. She laughed at our profession for failing to stop those weekend warriors. The AMA at least at that time up until the last time I checked did not recognize acupuncture to be practiced or used by their MDs!!! And what did we do as a profession....absolutely nothing. I passed such information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind my own business in Florida.....so I did. Richard In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:47:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, nancy writes: Touche, so how do you propose to fight? Whinning isn't going to do it, being disjointed as a group isn't going to do it. There are a lot of closed minds out there. I am third generation western medicine, my niece who is about to graduate will be 4th generation. I am going to take so much ****** flack to going into a TCM program, there will be jokes galore for who knows how long, but I am strong inside and strong in my beliefs so I will be able to handle it. I already see the reaction on collegues faces when I tell them, some think it's great and others you would think I had personally betrayed them. But what is the answer? And how do you stop the 100 hour weekend programs? I see them advertised in the health papers (actually I see more like 500 hour programs) and then I look at the fact that I won't touch a needle near a person for almost 2 years and it makes me fume with anger. However there is a nationwide exam and certification. Those 100 hour people can't possible meet the requirements to sit for that exam. Does the exam give you the ability to say you have particular certification? If so it becomes also a matter of patient education. There are some battles against the institution of medicine you will probably not win, though the walls are crumbling a bit with 'new discoveries' they are making about the mind body connection LOL. The journals are starting to fill with such articles. They write like they have discovered some new revolutionary idea instead of something that has been known for 1000's of years. I truly believe in the person who said you need to take pride in your work and believe in what you do and people will come to you. The problem becomes when people go for acupuncture by someone poorly trained and it doesn't work and then they declare it a 'bad treatment' I have heard this from patients often. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Well my apologies, clearly I have a lot to learn, and perhaps I live in a more progressive area. I was quite surprised when I told some of my MD friends what I was about to do because their reaction was ‘I can’t wait to send you patients’ when they heard how long it would be before I graduated they were shocked. I then educated them on the difference between ‘courses for acupuncture’ and real training. I realize I’m one person but it starts somewhere. I get more odd reactions from my lay friends who can’t believe I would go for training in ‘hocus pocus’ and when I talk about the healing power of the body and some basic theories they look at me like I have two heads. I also have lay friends who think it is fantastic-I just hadn’t anticipated the reaction from some that I got. I guess I’m going to get a lot of ‘ribbing’. It’s ok, I survived my childhood, I can survive some ribbing! I agree with you on the scientific studies. I was so angered by that back pain article, then there was an article in a newspaper (I forget which one because I read it online) that infuriated me. He was critiquing the article and he hadn’t had even the most basic knowledge. He also referred to his osteopath who ‘jumped on his back and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t’. I left a comment that if his osteopath is jumping on his back then he needs to find a new osteopath. I highly doubt he was telling the truth. I think he was writing for effect and to trash acupuncture. I brought to his attention that the mere insertion of any needle was likely to trigger an endorphin release at the very minimum and how did the ‘sham’ people know they weren’t hitting some point/channel or doing something? There are some very closed minded people in the universe. It’s hard to fight them. I would be terrified to have someone who took a 100 hour course work on me but more importantly I WOULD NEVER PRACTICE ON SOMEONE AFTER ONLY 100 HOURS OF TRAINING!!!! The book for obgyn acupuncture was over 1000 pages! When I walked into the school book store I was very humbled. I knew there was a lot to learn but seeing it in front of you is humbling. I place out of a lot of classes but I took the syllabus for every single class and will go through it to review all that material to make sure it is fresh. I would just rather not have to pay for classes I don’t need to. I certainly don’t need to take pharmacology and physiology etc. That story about the boards is horrific. When you go to their web site now they have a list of ‘approved schools’ I am assuming you can only take their exam if you graduate from one of those schools? I hope so. Here is the real problem. John Doe MD/DO with acupuncture skills tells the patient ‘let me do acupuncture’ Or John Doe with all the right credentials. Are patients/people educated enough to know the difference? The osteopathic society put out a huge education campaign to get the word out about who they are and how they are ‘real doctors with more’ So how do you educate the world that only people who have been through a real program are qualified to practice acupuncture? Oh I just saw your last sentence “. I passed such information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind my own business in Florida.....so I did. “ That is very sad – You can bet when I am trained and working I will be very vocal about why someone with not enough hours of training isn’t as qualified as I am(hopefully will be) My biggest concern in the program was enough clinic time and practice time. I was happy to see there was a lot. I’m not young and afraid anymore of what the teacher might say, it’s more that I am going to want to take as much knowledge from them as possible and any criticism they have will only make me better. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of acudoc11 Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:32 AM Chinese Medicine Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies For one....I have never whined and I don't propose to anyone else to do anything. I act for myself going out into the world and standing up to and in front of the establishment whether that be in the legislative arena or judicial arena also making friends of those MDs who are open. And now in the scientific arena by presenting my little niche clinical experience in AP/OM over the past 13 years.....at the First Fascia Research Congress hosted at Harvard this past Thursday/Friday. There were several MDs who did the 100+ hour AP education offering all kinds of theories from the monies they received for research funding........ and you know what......they steered clear of me and would not engage in any conversation. One of them who saw my poster presentation of BaGuaFa walked away from the poster as she entered the poster presentation room. Later the next day I introduced myself to her giving her a business card and attempted to cordially engage her in conversation. She was silent. I made many contacts and new friends at this Research Congress and will now enter the system's sand-box of research......by applying for funding to perform credible research which then will not be able to be denied. And in the process you can bet there will be a pointing towards the ludicrous 100 hour week-end warriors - comparing their faulted research such as the acupuncture study released from Europe recently using 142 hour trained so-called acupuncturists. I said it years ago and maintain the position that the 100 hour people should call what they do as Chiro-puncture and Medi-puncture because other than using an acupuncture needle is has little similarity to the acupuncture taught in the majority of 4 year programs. As to the national exam......what you might not know is that many practitioners screamed for years until the NCCAOM stopped the loophole in January of 2001. Prior to that for some approximate 16 years they allowed anyone in without the appropriate education and to add insult to their so-called Board Certification as DIPLOMATE they have even been caught credentialing some who never sat for any test. We know of one such MD from New Jersey who on the basis of that Credential Document Review received an acupuncture license in Florida and there is still going to be hell for some to pay for that VIOLATION of Florida Statutes. So there are dirty hands in a lot of this. You fight one battle at a time until there is change. As to the institutions in western allopathic medicine such as the AMA.....in 1998 I spoke with one of the high-up MDs at the AMA who worked for the ABMS for many years prior. She laughed at our profession for failing to stop those weekend warriors. The AMA at least at that time up until the last time I checked did not recognize acupuncture to be practiced or used by their MDs!!! And what did we do as a profession....absolutely nothing. I passed such information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind my own business in Florida.....so I did. Richard In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:47:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, nancy <nancy%40ticeonline.com> writes: Touche, so how do you propose to fight? Whinning isn't going to do it, being disjointed as a group isn't going to do it. There are a lot of closed minds out there. I am third generation western medicine, my niece who is about to graduate will be 4th generation. I am going to take so much ****** flack to going into a TCM program, there will be jokes galore for who knows how long, but I am strong inside and strong in my beliefs so I will be able to handle it. I already see the reaction on collegues faces when I tell them, some think it's great and others you would think I had personally betrayed them. But what is the answer? And how do you stop the 100 hour weekend programs? I see them advertised in the health papers (actually I see more like 500 hour programs) and then I look at the fact that I won't touch a needle near a person for almost 2 years and it makes me fume with anger. However there is a nationwide exam and certification. Those 100 hour people can't possible meet the requirements to sit for that exam. Does the exam give you the ability to say you have particular certification? If so it becomes also a matter of patient education. There are some battles against the institution of medicine you will probably not win, though the walls are crumbling a bit with 'new discoveries' they are making about the mind body connection LOL. The journals are starting to fill with such articles. They write like they have discovered some new revolutionary idea instead of something that has been known for 1000's of years. I truly believe in the person who said you need to take pride in your work and believe in what you do and people will come to you. The problem becomes when people go for acupuncture by someone poorly trained and it doesn't work and then they declare it a 'bad treatment' I have heard this from patients often. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Are you going to school in MD, Nancy? Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Nancy Tice " <nancy > > > Well my apologies, clearly I have a lot to learn, and perhaps I live in a > more progressive area. I was quite surprised when I told some of my MD > friends what I was about to do because their reaction was ‘I can’t wait to > send you patients’ when they heard how long it would be before I graduated > they were shocked. I then educated them on the difference between ‘courses > for acupuncture’ and real training. I realize I’m one person but it starts > somewhere. I get more odd reactions from my lay friends who can’t believe I > would go for training in ‘hocus pocus’ and when I talk about the healing > power of the body and some basic theories they look at me like I have two > heads. I also have lay friends who think it is fantastic-I just hadn’t > anticipated the reaction from some that I got. I guess I’m going to get a > lot of ‘ribbing’. It’s ok, I survived my childhood, I can survive some > ribbing! > > I agree with you on the scientific studies. I was so angered by that back > pain article, then there was an article in a newspaper (I forget which one > because I read it online) that infuriated me. He was critiquing the article > and he hadn’t had even the most basic knowledge. He also referred to his > osteopath who ‘jumped on his back and sometimes it worked and sometimes it > didn’t’. I left a comment that if his osteopath is jumping on his back then > he needs to find a new osteopath. I highly doubt he was telling the truth. I > think he was writing for effect and to trash acupuncture. I brought to his > attention that the mere insertion of any needle was likely to trigger an > endorphin release at the very minimum and how did the ‘sham’ people know > they weren’t hitting some point/channel or doing something? > > There are some very closed minded people in the universe. It’s hard to fight > them. I would be terrified to have someone who took a 100 hour course work > on me but more importantly I WOULD NEVER PRACTICE ON SOMEONE AFTER ONLY 100 > HOURS OF TRAINING!!!! The book for obgyn acupuncture was over 1000 pages! > When I walked into the school book store I was very humbled. I knew there > was a lot to learn but seeing it in front of you is humbling. I place out of > a lot of classes but I took the syllabus for every single class and will go > through it to review all that material to make sure it is fresh. I would > just rather not have to pay for classes I don’t need to. I certainly don’t > need to take pharmacology and physiology etc. > > That story about the boards is horrific. When you go to their web site now > they have a list of ‘approved schools’ I am assuming you can only take their > exam if you graduate from one of those schools? I hope so. > > > > Here is the real problem. John Doe MD/DO with acupuncture skills tells the > patient ‘let me do acupuncture’ > > Or John Doe with all the right credentials. Are patients/people educated > enough to know the difference? > > The osteopathic society put out a huge education campaign to get the word > out about who they are and how they are ‘real doctors with more’ So how do > you educate the world that only people who have been through a real program > are qualified to practice acupuncture? > > Oh I just saw your last sentence > > “. I passed such > information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind > my own > business in Florida.....so I did. “ > > > > That is very sad – > > You can bet when I am trained and working I will be very vocal about why > someone with not enough hours of training isn’t as qualified as I > am(hopefully will be) My biggest concern in the program was enough clinic > time and practice time. I was happy to see there was a lot. I’m not young > and afraid anymore of what the teacher might say, it’s more that I am going > to want to take as much knowledge from them as possible and any criticism > they have will only make me better. > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > acudoc11 > Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:32 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies > > > > > For one....I have never whined and I don't propose to anyone else to do > anything. I act for myself going out into the world and standing up to and > in > front of the establishment whether that be in the legislative arena or > judicial > arena also making friends of those MDs who are open. > > And now in the scientific arena by presenting my little niche clinical > experience in AP/OM over the past 13 years.....at the First Fascia Research > Congress hosted at Harvard this past Thursday/Friday. There were several MDs > who > did the 100+ hour AP education offering all kinds of theories from the > monies > they received for research funding........ and you know what......they > steered > clear of me and would not engage in any conversation. One of them who saw my > > poster presentation of BaGuaFa walked away from the poster as she entered > the poster presentation room. Later the next day I introduced myself to her > giving her a business card and attempted to cordially engage her in > conversation. She was silent. > > I made many contacts and new friends at this Research Congress and will now > enter the system's sand-box of research......by applying for funding to > perform credible research which then will not be able to be denied. > > And in the process you can bet there will be a pointing towards the > ludicrous 100 hour week-end warriors - comparing their faulted research such > as the > acupuncture study released from Europe recently using 142 hour trained > so-called acupuncturists. I said it years ago and maintain the position that > the 100 > hour people should call what they do as Chiro-puncture and Medi-puncture > because other than using an acupuncture needle is has little similarity to > the > acupuncture taught in the majority of 4 year programs. > > As to the national exam......what you might not know is that many > practitioners screamed for years until the NCCAOM stopped the loophole in > January of > 2001. Prior to that for some approximate 16 years they allowed anyone in > without the appropriate education and to add insult to their so-called Board > > Certification as DIPLOMATE they have even been caught credentialing some who > never > sat for any test. We know of one such MD from New Jersey who on the basis of > > that Credential Document Review received an acupuncture license in Florida > and there is still going to be hell for some to pay for that VIOLATION of > Florida Statutes. So there are dirty hands in a lot of this. You fight one > battle > at a time until there is change. > > As to the institutions in western allopathic medicine such as the AMA.....in > > 1998 I spoke with one of the high-up MDs at the AMA who worked for the ABMS > for many years prior. She laughed at our profession for failing to stop > those > weekend warriors. The AMA at least at that time up until the last time I > checked did not recognize acupuncture to be practiced or used by their > MDs!!! > And what did we do as a profession....absolutely nothing. I passed such > information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind > my own > business in Florida.....so I did. > > Richard In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:47:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, > nancy <nancy%40ticeonline.com> writes: > > Touche, so how do you propose to fight? Whinning isn't going to do it, > being disjointed as a group isn't going to do it. There are a lot of closed > minds out there. I am third generation western medicine, my niece who is > about to graduate will be 4th generation. I am going to take so much ****** > flack to going into a TCM program, there will be jokes galore for who knows > how long, but I am strong inside and strong in my beliefs so I will be able > to handle it. I already see the reaction on collegues faces when I tell > them, some think it's great and others you would think I had personally > betrayed them. But what is the answer? And how do you stop the 100 hour > weekend programs? I see them advertised in the health papers (actually I see > more like 500 hour programs) and then I look at the fact that I won't touch > a needle near a person for almost 2 years and it makes me fume with anger. > However there is a nationwide exam and certification. Those 100 hour people > can't possible meet the requirements to sit for that exam. > > Does the exam give you the ability to say you have particular certification? > If so it becomes also a matter of patient education. > > There are some battles against the institution of medicine you will probably > not win, though the walls are crumbling a bit with 'new discoveries' they > are making about the mind body connection LOL. The journals are starting to > fill with such articles. They write like they have discovered some new > revolutionary idea instead of something that has been known for 1000's of > years. > > I truly believe in the person who said you need to take pride in your work > and believe in what you do and people will come to you. > > The problem becomes when people go for acupuncture by someone poorly trained > and it doesn't work and then they declare it a 'bad treatment' I have heard > this from patients often. > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Anne, I am already a physician, I am going to school in TCM. A sort of odd change but I am not the only doctor to pass through the program from what I understand. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of anne.crowley Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:32 PM Chinese Medicine RE: M.D.s as allies not enemies Are you going to school in MD, Nancy? Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Nancy Tice " <nancy > > > Well my apologies, clearly I have a lot to learn, and perhaps I live in a > more progressive area. I was quite surprised when I told some of my MD > friends what I was about to do because their reaction was 'I can't wait to > send you patients' when they heard how long it would be before I graduated > they were shocked. I then educated them on the difference between 'courses > for acupuncture' and real training. I realize I'm one person but it starts > somewhere. I get more odd reactions from my lay friends who can't believe I > would go for training in 'hocus pocus' and when I talk about the healing > power of the body and some basic theories they look at me like I have two > heads. I also have lay friends who think it is fantastic-I just hadn't > anticipated the reaction from some that I got. I guess I'm going to get a > lot of 'ribbing'. It's ok, I survived my childhood, I can survive some > ribbing! > > I agree with you on the scientific studies. I was so angered by that back > pain article, then there was an article in a newspaper (I forget which one > because I read it online) that infuriated me. He was critiquing the article > and he hadn't had even the most basic knowledge. He also referred to his > osteopath who 'jumped on his back and sometimes it worked and sometimes it > didn't'. I left a comment that if his osteopath is jumping on his back then > he needs to find a new osteopath. I highly doubt he was telling the truth. I > think he was writing for effect and to trash acupuncture. I brought to his > attention that the mere insertion of any needle was likely to trigger an > endorphin release at the very minimum and how did the 'sham' people know > they weren't hitting some point/channel or doing something? > > There are some very closed minded people in the universe. It's hard to fight > them. I would be terrified to have someone who took a 100 hour course work > on me but more importantly I WOULD NEVER PRACTICE ON SOMEONE AFTER ONLY 100 > HOURS OF TRAINING!!!! The book for obgyn acupuncture was over 1000 pages! > When I walked into the school book store I was very humbled. I knew there > was a lot to learn but seeing it in front of you is humbling. I place out of > a lot of classes but I took the syllabus for every single class and will go > through it to review all that material to make sure it is fresh. I would > just rather not have to pay for classes I don't need to. I certainly don't > need to take pharmacology and physiology etc. > > That story about the boards is horrific. When you go to their web site now > they have a list of 'approved schools' I am assuming you can only take their > exam if you graduate from one of those schools? I hope so. > > > > Here is the real problem. John Doe MD/DO with acupuncture skills tells the > patient 'let me do acupuncture' > > Or John Doe with all the right credentials. Are patients/people educated > enough to know the difference? > > The osteopathic society put out a huge education campaign to get the word > out about who they are and how they are 'real doctors with more' So how do > you educate the world that only people who have been through a real program > are qualified to practice acupuncture? > > Oh I just saw your last sentence > > " . I passed such > information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind > my own > business in Florida.....so I did. " > > > > That is very sad - > > You can bet when I am trained and working I will be very vocal about why > someone with not enough hours of training isn't as qualified as I > am(hopefully will be) My biggest concern in the program was enough clinic > time and practice time. I was happy to see there was a lot. I'm not young > and afraid anymore of what the teacher might say, it's more that I am going > to want to take as much knowledge from them as possible and any criticism > they have will only make me better. > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > acudoc11 > Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:32 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: M.D.s as allies not enemies > > > > > For one....I have never whined and I don't propose to anyone else to do > anything. I act for myself going out into the world and standing up to and > in > front of the establishment whether that be in the legislative arena or > judicial > arena also making friends of those MDs who are open. > > And now in the scientific arena by presenting my little niche clinical > experience in AP/OM over the past 13 years.....at the First Fascia Research > Congress hosted at Harvard this past Thursday/Friday. There were several MDs > who > did the 100+ hour AP education offering all kinds of theories from the > monies > they received for research funding........ and you know what......they > steered > clear of me and would not engage in any conversation. One of them who saw my > > poster presentation of BaGuaFa walked away from the poster as she entered > the poster presentation room. Later the next day I introduced myself to her > giving her a business card and attempted to cordially engage her in > conversation. She was silent. > > I made many contacts and new friends at this Research Congress and will now > enter the system's sand-box of research......by applying for funding to > perform credible research which then will not be able to be denied. > > And in the process you can bet there will be a pointing towards the > ludicrous 100 hour week-end warriors - comparing their faulted research such > as the > acupuncture study released from Europe recently using 142 hour trained > so-called acupuncturists. I said it years ago and maintain the position that > the 100 > hour people should call what they do as Chiro-puncture and Medi-puncture > because other than using an acupuncture needle is has little similarity to > the > acupuncture taught in the majority of 4 year programs. > > As to the national exam......what you might not know is that many > practitioners screamed for years until the NCCAOM stopped the loophole in > January of > 2001. Prior to that for some approximate 16 years they allowed anyone in > without the appropriate education and to add insult to their so-called Board > > Certification as DIPLOMATE they have even been caught credentialing some who > never > sat for any test. We know of one such MD from New Jersey who on the basis of > > that Credential Document Review received an acupuncture license in Florida > and there is still going to be hell for some to pay for that VIOLATION of > Florida Statutes. So there are dirty hands in a lot of this. You fight one > battle > at a time until there is change. > > As to the institutions in western allopathic medicine such as the AMA.....in > > 1998 I spoke with one of the high-up MDs at the AMA who worked for the ABMS > for many years prior. She laughed at our profession for failing to stop > those > weekend warriors. The AMA at least at that time up until the last time I > checked did not recognize acupuncture to be practiced or used by their > MDs!!! > And what did we do as a profession....absolutely nothing. I passed such > information on to one of our national organizations and they told me to mind > my own > business in Florida.....so I did. > > Richard In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:47:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, > nancy <nancy%40ticeonline.com> writes: > > Touche, so how do you propose to fight? Whinning isn't going to do it, > being disjointed as a group isn't going to do it. There are a lot of closed > minds out there. I am third generation western medicine, my niece who is > about to graduate will be 4th generation. I am going to take so much ****** > flack to going into a TCM program, there will be jokes galore for who knows > how long, but I am strong inside and strong in my beliefs so I will be able > to handle it. I already see the reaction on collegues faces when I tell > them, some think it's great and others you would think I had personally > betrayed them. But what is the answer? And how do you stop the 100 hour > weekend programs? I see them advertised in the health papers (actually I see > more like 500 hour programs) and then I look at the fact that I won't touch > a needle near a person for almost 2 years and it makes me fume with anger. > However there is a nationwide exam and certification. Those 100 hour people > can't possible meet the requirements to sit for that exam. > > Does the exam give you the ability to say you have particular certification? > If so it becomes also a matter of patient education. > > There are some battles against the institution of medicine you will probably > not win, though the walls are crumbling a bit with 'new discoveries' they > are making about the mind body connection LOL. The journals are starting to > fill with such articles. They write like they have discovered some new > revolutionary idea instead of something that has been known for 1000's of > years. > > I truly believe in the person who said you need to take pride in your work > and believe in what you do and people will come to you. > > The problem becomes when people go for acupuncture by someone poorly trained > and it doesn't work and then they declare it a 'bad treatment' I have heard > this from patients often. > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.