Digest Number 2396

September 8, 2007

I disagree with David.

It is a good habit to write the meaning and than the abbreviation. Look at

the scientific journals.

To judge a person for not knowing the abbreviation is wrong.

Tatiana

" about ABORM, and who is or is not qualified to treat infertility

> somebody posted a very simple question, " What is PCOS? "

>

> See message #26271.

>

> I presume that the person who posted the question is an

acupuncturist,

> as most of us on this discussion board are. So I ask you this, is

this

> acupuncturist qualified to treat and manage infertility cases??

>

> Those of you who argue against specialty certification and claim

that

> all acupuncturists are created equal, do you honestly feel that

> someone who does not know what PCOS is should be treating

infertility?? "

September 9, 2007

Tatiana,

I did not judge Andrea as a person for not knowing the acronym. I

did not even judge her as an acupuncturist. None of us knows

everything about everything.

I used her timely comment to contest the point being made by some of

our colleagues that a general acupuncture education is sufficient to

diagnose, treat and manage infertility cases. The point being, if

one does not instantly recognize the acronym PCOS, then that person

is very unlikely to possess expertise of Reproductive Medicine. And

thus, I support efforts being made to create a certification

credential that alerts the public about who may be best qualified to

treat infertility.

David Karchmer

-- In Chinese Medicine , " Tatiana

Gaidarenko " <tvgaid wrote:

>

> I disagree with David.

>

> It is a good habit to write the meaning and than the abbreviation.

Look at

> the scientific journals.

> To judge a person for not knowing the abbreviation is wrong.

>

> Tatiana

>

> " about ABORM, and who is or is not qualified to treat infertility

> > somebody posted a very simple question, " What is PCOS? "

> >

> > See message #26271.

> >

> > I presume that the person who posted the question is an

> acupuncturist,

> > as most of us on this discussion board are. So I ask you this, is

> this

> > acupuncturist qualified to treat and manage infertility cases??

> >

> > Those of you who argue against specialty certification and claim

> that

> > all acupuncturists are created equal, do you honestly feel that

> > someone who does not know what PCOS is should be treating

> infertility?? "

>

September 9, 2007

Hi David. You need to give up this point, at least the way you are stating it.

Your point is illogical and unproveable. Treating infertility has been a part of

for a long time. All it takes for someone to become good at it

is to take their basic theory seriously, develop a relationship with a doctor

who " is good " at this type of case, and learn from them. This is the way it has

been for a very long time. Yes, there were certificates involved in this

process, and it is not the certification I am against. It is this idea that you

are proposing that without having knowledge of western medical acronyms a CM

practitioner is therefore not qualified to " manage " an infertility case because

they supposedly have not had exposure to infertility cases. This is a completely

irrational statement since it ignores the bulk of Chinese Medical history, where

infertility was treated successfully without *anyone* knowing what PCOS was. Or

even knowing what

western medicine was, for that matter.

I believe your assertion will be a lot more realistic, as well as palatable to

many here, if you modify it to assert something more realistic: " Specialist

training and certification might be necessary in order to drive our profession's

growth when dealing with western medical systems. It may also help to preserve

our autonomy by providing one less barrier for western medicine to jump when

dealing with us. " (coz we all know how much it fries an MD's mind that as

generalists we can treat soo much stuff effectively.)

Hugo

David Karchmer <acuprof

I used her timely comment to contest the point being made by some of

our colleagues that a general acupuncture education is sufficient to

diagnose, treat and manage infertility cases. The point being, if

one does not instantly recognize the acronym PCOS, then that person

is very unlikely to possess expertise of Reproductive Medicine. And

thus, I support efforts being made to create a certification

credential that alerts the public about who may be best qualified to

treat infertility.

David Karchmer

and adjust

accordingly.

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September 9, 2007

Hugo,

First of all, I can see that we have some fundamental disagreements.

Our first disagreement is that I have to give up my position because

you don't happen to agree with it. Is this really how you want to go

about debating the important issues that confront our profession? By

commanding silence when someone holds an opinion that contradicts

your own?

As for the substance of the debate, you suggested that my point of

view is " completely irrational....since it ignores the bulk of

Chinese Medical history, where infertility was treated successfully

without *anyone* knowing what PCOS was. Or even knowing what western

medicine was, for that matter. "

Let me first address this by pointing out that where Reproductive

Medicine is concerned, the medical landscape has changed

dramatically in the last 30 years. The drugs, procedures, diagnostic

tests and ethical concerns involved in modern reproductive medicine

were not remotely imagined during the time that CM was being

developed.

So, while I hate to go tit-for-tat, I think that you are the one who

is arguing irrationally when you suggest that the principles of

reproductive medicine are the same today as they were 1,000 years

ago, and that the treatment methods of yesteryear are equally

applicable in the modern landscape.

To make such a claim really underscores and stregthens my belief

that these distinctions need to be made, and that it is important

for the public to be able to discern who within our field does and

does not possess a fundamental understanding of the reproductive

process.

David Karchmer

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David. You need to give up this point, at least the way you

are stating it. Your point is illogical and unproveable. Treating

infertility has been a part of for a long time. All

it takes for someone to become good at it is to take their basic

theory seriously, develop a relationship with a doctor who " is good "

at this type of case, and learn from them. This is the way it has

been for a very long time. Yes, there were certificates involved in

this process, and it is not the certification I am against. It is

this idea that you are proposing that without having knowledge of

western medical acronyms a CM practitioner is therefore not

qualified to " manage " an infertility case because they supposedly

have not had exposure to infertility cases. This is a completely

irrational statement since it ignores the bulk of Chinese Medical

history, where infertility was treated successfully without *anyone*

knowing what PCOS was. Or even knowing what

> western medicine was, for that matter.

> I believe your assertion will be a lot more realistic, as well as

palatable to many here, if you modify it to assert something more

realistic: " Specialist training and certification might be necessary

in order to drive our profession's growth when dealing with western

medical systems. It may also help to preserve our autonomy by

providing one less barrier for western medicine to jump when dealing

with us. " (coz we all know how much it fries an MD's mind that as

generalists we can treat soo much stuff effectively.)

>

> Hugo

>

> David Karchmer <acuprof

>

I used her timely comment to contest the point being made by some

of

>

> our colleagues that a general acupuncture education is sufficient

to

>

> diagnose, treat and manage infertility cases. The point being, if

>

> one does not instantly recognize the acronym PCOS, then that

person

>

> is very unlikely to possess expertise of Reproductive Medicine.

And

>

> thus, I support efforts being made to create a certification

>

> credential that alerts the public about who may be best qualified

to

>

> treat infertility.

>

> David Karchmer

and

adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

>

Change settings via the Web ( ID required)

>

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Switch format to Traditional

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>

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> 2

>

> New Members

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> for Good

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>

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September 9, 2007

I agree with Tatiana. I had never seen any medical literature

wrote an acronym by itself. It is always preceded by its whole term,

the acronym then in the bracket " .... " as Carpel Tunnel Syn " CTS " .

I do not even know anybody including specialists who would judge a

practitioner who does not know the acronym is an incompentent.

I believe that whenever any TCM wants to show off his talent or

knowledge of WM, please spell out the whole words before the acronym.

For those whose know the acronym does not mean they know their

stuff. Knowing the acronym is one thing, understanding is another, and

practicing is a different issue.

Even specialists in GYN / OB , there are crooks. Any of us TCM

knows that they do the hysterectomy or cessarian in most unnecessary

cases? 50-80%. Administering estrogen therapy in a wrong way ( because

they know estrogen RX are harmful ) and causing too much problem for

women. Same thing as wrongful prostate removal. But they are not

punished and they are continuing to do that. Are these belong to ABORM

" reproductive medicine " ? Are we following them ?

Please check this book out : Hormonal Health by Dr. Michael

Colgan. We TCM must be strong, not following the bad crowd and should

not be proud of understanding a little knowledge of WM and despite

other TCM folks. But it is good to know and understand WM to

incoporate into our knowledge for practicing. I have read a lot of WM

books explaining a lot of diseases explicitly, but they can not do

anything about it. What does it do to us? THere are a lot of BS in

explanation too, I think. However, there have been a lot of diseases

have been treated successfully in TCM in very plain and humble

explanation, but WM denies it and everybody still follows its crowd.

Dr. Colgan states that when MD made a statement is like GOd's word.

We TCM must think and find out for our own's sake I believe.

Nam Nguyen

Chinese Medicine , " Tatiana

Gaidarenko " <tvgaid wrote:

>

> I disagree with David.

>

> It is a good habit to write the meaning and than the abbreviation.

Look at

> the scientific journals.

> To judge a person for not knowing the abbreviation is wrong.

>

> Tatiana

>

> " about ABORM, and who is or is not qualified to treat infertility

> > somebody posted a very simple question, " What is PCOS? "

> >

> > See message #26271.

> >

> > I presume that the person who posted the question is an

> acupuncturist,

> > as most of us on this discussion board are. So I ask you this, is

> this

> > acupuncturist qualified to treat and manage infertility cases??

> >

> > Those of you who argue against specialty certification and claim

> that

> > all acupuncturists are created equal, do you honestly feel that

> > someone who does not know what PCOS is should be treating

> infertility?? "

>

September 9, 2007

David,

I guess I seem to think that the ABORM group could teach seminars on TCM

reproductive medicine instead of giving a unaccredited certification tests.

That way more might benefit from this knowledge. Has anyone spoken with

the ABORM about this? A lot of us are tired of our profession doing things

haphazard, like education, and creating a bizarre way of doing things.

This appears to once again be happening.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

: acuprof:

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:36:07 +0000Re: Digest Number 2396

Hugo,First of all, I can see that we have some fundamental disagreements. Our

first disagreement is that I have to give up my position because you don't

happen to agree with it. Is this really how you want to go about debating the

important issues that confront our profession? By commanding silence when

someone holds an opinion that contradicts your own?As for the substance of the

debate, you suggested that my point of view is " completely irrational....since

it ignores the bulk of Chinese Medical history, where infertility was treated

successfully without *anyone* knowing what PCOS was. Or even knowing what

western medicine was, for that matter. " Let me first address this by pointing out

that where Reproductive Medicine is concerned, the medical landscape has changed

dramatically in the last 30 years. The drugs, procedures, diagnostic tests and

ethical concerns involved in modern reproductive medicine were not remotely

imagined during the time that CM was being developed.So, while I hate to go

tit-for-tat, I think that you are the one who is arguing irrationally when you

suggest that the principles of reproductive medicine are the same today as they

were 1,000 years ago, and that the treatment methods of yesteryear are equally

applicable in the modern landscape. To make such a claim really underscores and

stregthens my belief that these distinctions need to be made, and that it is

important for the public to be able to discern who within our field does and

does not possess a fundamental understanding of the reproductive process.David

KarchmerChinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:>> Hi David. You need to give up this point, at least the

way you are stating it. Your point is illogical and unproveable. Treating

infertility has been a part of for a long time. All it takes

for someone to become good at it is to take their basic theory seriously,

develop a relationship with a doctor who " is good " at this type of case, and

learn from them. This is the way it has been for a very long time. Yes, there

were certificates involved in this process, and it is not the certification I am

against. It is this idea that you are proposing that without having knowledge of

western medical acronyms a CM practitioner is therefore not qualified to

" manage " an infertility case because they supposedly have not had exposure to

infertility cases. This is a completely irrational statement since it ignores

the bulk of Chinese Medical history, where infertility was treated successfully

without *anyone* knowing what PCOS was. Or even knowing what> western medicine

was, for that matter.> I believe your assertion will be a lot more realistic, as

well as palatable to many here, if you modify it to assert something more

realistic: " Specialist training and certification might be necessary in order to

drive our profession's growth when dealing with western medical systems. It may

also help to preserve our autonomy by providing one less barrier for western

medicine to jump when dealing with us. " (coz we all know how much it fries an

MD's mind that as generalists we can treat soo much stuff effectively.)> > Hugo>

> > David Karchmer <acuprof> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I used her timely comment to contest the point being made by some

of > > our colleagues that a general acupuncture education is sufficient to > >

diagnose, treat and manage infertility cases. The point being, if > > one does

not instantly recognize the acronym PCOS, then that person > > is very unlikely

to possess expertise of Reproductive Medicine. And > > thus, I support efforts

being made to create a certification > > credential that alerts the public about

who may be best qualified to > > treat infertility.> > > > David Karchmer> > > >

> > >

and adjust

accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication

outside the group requires prior permission from the author.> > > > Please

consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. >

> > > > > > > > > > > Change settings via the Web ( ID required) > >

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to

Traditional > > > > Visit Your Group > |> > Terms of Use |> >

Un > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recent Activity> > > > 2> > New Members>

> > > > > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > > > > > Give Back> > for Good>

> Get inspired> > by a good cause.> > > > > Y! Toolbar> > Get it Free!> > easy

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________ > Want ideas for

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Gear up for Halo® 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It’s our way of

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http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2

September 9, 2007

The issue isn't so much in the reading, heck we can look it up if we need to.

The problem is when a patient is sitting in front of you and she says " I was

diagnosed with PCOS " or " My doctor says my FSH is too high " and you have to ask

what PCOS or FSH are? If I was a patient going to a TCM doc and they asked me

what PCOS was, I'd turn around and walk out.

Julie