cancer patients and strong analgesics

[Guest guest]

Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

 

I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer patients.

Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker, BTW) , who had been

given up on and sent home to die by her Western physician--except that he

insisted that she receive a high dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with

pain. " She and her family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each

evening to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of her

pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but

nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so

discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After

that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect

that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and

did her in. My question is, have any of

you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone,

Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was

showing significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic

Western intervention.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,

photos & more.

 

 

[Guest guest]

That's a tough one. Of course, high doses of opiates can kill

people. Junkies die every day from opiate overdoses. On the other

hand, painkillers can be very helpful to somebody in the late stages

of cancer. Once the cancer gets into the bones, it can be very

difficult to treat the pain with acupuncture alone. Painkillers plus

acupuncture actually works. This is jus my limited experience, of

course.

 

- Bill

 

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated

cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-

smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her

Western physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high

dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her

family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening

to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of

her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment

with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family

faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician

said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it

would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was

all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect

that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her

fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your

pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't doubt that there may be something to the opiate overdoses but

I have two other tough alternatives. I'm wondering if they were doing

so well just a day before if the family members weren't experiencing

the patient's false Shen. I've seen this happen a day or two before

passing away. I think it's not impossible that you have made the

patients comfortable enough to pass away.

 

 

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> That's a tough one. Of course, high doses of opiates can kill

> people. Junkies die every day from opiate overdoses. On the other

> hand, painkillers can be very helpful to somebody in the late stages

> of cancer. Once the cancer gets into the bones, it can be very

> difficult to treat the pain with acupuncture alone. Painkillers plus

> acupuncture actually works. This is jus my limited experience, of

> course.

>

> - Bill

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

> >>>>>

You also need to remember it is common for people to suddenly show remarkable

positive change just before they die. Opiate tolerance is very individual and

toxicity symptoms are caused by huge variation in dosage. It depends on how long

some has been on them and individual metabolism. Death is from respiratory

depression

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

bill_schoenbart

Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:51 AM

Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

That's a tough one. Of course, high doses of opiates can kill

people. Junkies die every day from opiate overdoses. On the other

hand, painkillers can be very helpful to somebody in the late stages

of cancer. Once the cancer gets into the bones, it can be very

difficult to treat the pain with acupuncture alone. Painkillers plus

acupuncture actually works. This is jus my limited experience, of

course.

 

- Bill

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated

cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-

smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her

Western physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high

dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her

family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening

to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of

her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment

with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family

faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician

said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it

would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was

all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect

that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her

fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your

pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

That's the protocol in Hospice Care, in the name of " to assist the pt &

family for a peaceful passing "

Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then

death.

It takes 24-48hrs to work. Yes, the pt die in that time frame.

I'm an RN, worked for Hospice few months. Quit after examining my moral

issues.

Take care.

amy

 

 

 

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

Are you sure it was not coincidence of timing with morphine? I had treated an

elderly person who had breathing problems yet slept the best they had in years

a few days before they also passed. Sometimes people appear to be getting

better right before they pass. A last flash of brightness (yang) and then

they pass (yin). Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

;

Chinese Traditional Medicine: : Sun,

19 Aug 2007 01:07:27 -0700cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

 

 

Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,I want to compare notes with those of you

who have treated cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a

non-smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV morphine

to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very cooperative, and

excitedly called me each evening to report on how much better they felt she was

doing. The level of her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second

treatment with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family

faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since

her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to

increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she passed away

this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may have just too strong for

someone in her fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any ofyou had

similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine or

Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing significant

improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western

intervention.Sincerely,YehudaYehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST,

SERTake the

Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos &

more.

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

Morphine, etc. does, indeed, have the effect of moving a fragile patient closer

to death. I was my grandmother's " night nurse " many many years ago when she was

dying at home of colon cancer, and the attending MD explained to us carefully

that, while we should not hesitate to give her additional shots as she showed

signs of discomfort, we should know that each shot, in her condition, would

bring her that much closer to death.

 

I knew nothing about Chinese medicine then, but I assume that as one of the

effects of morphine, etc is to relax and slow down the functioning of the

organs, in one with extreme qi deficiency (as one would have after battling

cancer and western cancer treatments for a long time) at some point there's not

enough left to counter the unrooting effects of the drug, and the spirit simply

slips loose of the body and floats away.

 

---Deb Marshall

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/07, Deb Marshall <taichideb wrote:

>

> I knew nothing about Chinese medicine then, but I assume that as one of

> the effects of morphine, etc is to relax and slow down the functioning of

> the organs, in one with extreme qi deficiency (as one would have after

> battling cancer and western cancer treatments for a long time) at some point

> there's not enough left to counter the unrooting effects of the drug, and

> the spirit simply slips loose of the body and floats away.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can read up on Ying Su Ke for more info on how TCM sees the opium husk

and to a certain extent the effects of morphine.

 

" This unrooting of the spirit which slips loose and floats away. " That's a

lovely image. I got no problem with this sort of intervention at the end of

a painful disorder and intuitively see a bed-ridden death as this very

experience.

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

Not based on my experience as an acupuncturist, but based on the experience of

both my mother and sister who are nurses working with the elderly, this is

common. When the patient is diagnosed as declining without hope of recovery,

morphine is given and within a few days the patient passes away.

 

Sincerely,

Cheryle, L.Ac.

 

wrote:

Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

 

I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer patients. Last

week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker, BTW) , who had been given

up on and sent home to die by her Western physician--except that he insisted

that she receive a high dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She

and her family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to

report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was

down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also brought

her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but

nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so

discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After

that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect

that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and

did her in. My question is, have any of

you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine

or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing

significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western

intervention.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news,

photos & more.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow. This is a heavy topic. I thought euthanasia was illegal... and the moral

considerations are another complicated layer. A good topic for discussion.

 

 

 

Amyc144 wrote: Hi Yehuda,

That's the protocol in Hospice Care, in the name of " to assist the pt &

family for a peaceful passing "

Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then

death.

It takes 24-48hrs to work. Yes, the pt die in that time frame.

I'm an RN, worked for Hospice few months. Quit after examining my moral

issues.

Take care.

amy

 

 

 

 

 

Got a little couch potato?

Check out fun summer activities for kids.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear group,

 

What nurse Amy confirms is exactly as I have suspected: Western medicine's

primary task in cases beyond its ability to resolve is pain control.

 

" Hi Yehuda,

That's the protocol in Hospice Care, in the name of " to assist the pt &

family for a peaceful passing "

Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then

death.

It takes 24-48hrs to work. Yes, the pt die in that time frame.

I'm an RN, worked for Hospice few months. Quit after examining my moral

issues. "

 

Shocking, no?

 

I'll never forget, that a few years ago, when seeing a neurologist at UCLA,

seeing her wearing a button (like the no-smoking butttons) with the word " PAIN "

and a line through it. In other words, pain must be SUPPRESSED at all costs!

When they ultimately give up, their agenda calls for heroic doses of analgesics

which means euthanasia. They may deny it, it may not be politically correct to

admit it, but that IS their protocol. Shades of " Dr. Death " , the infamous Jack

Kevorkian. I feel we must do something! Our medicine and other related and

complementary therapies are able to ameliorate pain without side effects. At

the very least, dialogue must be initiated with the medical community to have

them consider the benefit of alternatives to heroic dosages of strong analgesics

used alone which DO kill. Just like " goldilocks " a new protocol needs to be

developed to offer patients in unrelenting pain, relief that can be achieved

using small doses of analgesics which

are " just right " , together with acupuncture, herbs and other modalities. Not

only will the patient suffer less, but more importantly, this will give us the

time to make a difference, to affect a change and to give our medicine a chance

to work.

 

I am just a little guy. I am a relatively new practitioner and an not well

connected. Some of you do work with oncologists regularly and others of you do

work in lobbying and legislative reform.

 

Do you want to effect a change? Or are there other, bigger issues that YOU

consider priorities such as medicare or insurance reform? Personally, if you

want to involve me in this process, I will gladly make myself available, but who

am I?

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

 

 

 

 

< wrote: Wow. This is a heavy

topic. I thought euthanasia was illegal... and the moral considerations are

another complicated layer. A good topic for discussion.

 

 

 

Amyc144 wrote: Hi Yehuda,

That's the protocol in Hospice Care, in the name of " to assist the pt &

family for a peaceful passing "

Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then

death.

It takes 24-48hrs to work. Yes, the pt die in that time frame.

I'm an RN, worked for Hospice few months. Quit after examining my moral

issues.

Take care.

amy

 

 

Got a little couch potato?

Check out fun summer activities for kids.

 

 

[Guest guest]

What about pulses, Alon, in all 3 cases, there was a dramatic improvement in

the patient's pulses. As far as opiate tolerance, I strongly question how high

the threshold of tolerance is for patients already weakened by cancer, chemo and

radiation. BTW, as I posted about 6 months ago, (and again, this is only

concerning methadone, not vicodin or morphine), there have been published

studies clearly showing that Methadone causes severe damage heart and liver

tissue.

 

Yehuda

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

> >>>>>

You also need to remember it is common for people to suddenly show remarkable

positive change just before they die. Opiate tolerance is very individual and

toxicity symptoms are caused by huge variation in dosage. It depends on how long

some has been on them and individual metabolism. Death is from respiratory

depression

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Al Stone <al wrote: Dear Al,

You may have no problem with it, but I have a big problem with it:

1. The decision is made by the western physician rather than the patient. My

patient had specifically told me that she wanted to live and was willing to

endure pain, as long as she had a chance to live. Then when she was sent home,

she was sent home with instruction to start the Morphine drip immediately. That

was the beginning of the end. And,BTW, it only made her incoherent and spacey.

There as terrrible groaning and pain, which never ended until the end, from the

onset of the IV, which began about 2 hours after I left. Let the patient make

an informed decision. If the CM physician feels that a)quality of life can be

improved and b)there is what to be done to give the patient a chance (even

though the Western docs had given up) , then certainly don't dogmatically

automatically begin the drip!

Again, I see very little difference between this and euthanasia, which to me,

is unacceptable, though I don't believe this is an appropriate forum to engage

in debate as to its merits or not.

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

You can read up on Ying Su Ke for more info on how TCM sees the opium husk

and to a certain extent the effects of morphine.

 

" This unrooting of the spirit which slips loose and floats away. " That's a

lovely image. I got no problem with this sort of intervention at the end of

a painful disorder and intuitively see a bed-ridden death as this very

experience.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Yehuda,

Not sure what you were treating with the herbs / acupuncture - but I'm

assuming it was pain? I'm also going to assume it was stage 4 lung Ca

beyond western treatment based on your reporting. Assuming that is

all correct, do you consider your treatment a failure? Your patient

said they felt better shortly before passing away after battling a

hideous disease - that sounds like a success to me. The morphine was

probably very helpful for comfort, and sometimes if the dose is quite

high - to help passing on as well.

 

After treating a few late stage cancer patients, you loose any

thoughts that you are going to bring them back from the brink of

destruction - all I can pray for is a swift comfortable death at home

with their family around them. I am not an expert, but defer to the

expertise of the oncologists working with the patient to get a good

idea of what the treatment plan should be - fight or get ready to pass

on. Julian Scott taught us that sometimes you just help give the

patient enough Qi to pass away. You see a lot of people in the

hospital that are too weak to die, which is a terrible way to go.

 

Geoff

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer

patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker,

BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV

morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very

cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how

much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down

significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to

her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her

signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial

to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she

passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may

have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in.

My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

[Guest guest]

Hi Geoff,

 

Yes and no. because I integrate CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional

release into my treatments (among other things), I feel comfortable utilitzing

my hands-on therapies to address co-existing pain issues, while at the same time

unblocking some of the blockage the cancer has caused. Also, I feel very

strongly that cancer is a process, often long term which results from the

sympathetic nervous system being under constant vigilence, working overtime.

With CranioSacral therapy, patients are able to let go and maybe for the first

time in years get out of fight or flight. As far as the herbs and acupuncture

I use, I don't treat Western conditions rather I try to determine the patient's

patterns in order to establish differential diagnosis. This patient presented

with severe lung, stomach and kidney yin xu, which had transformed into toxic

heat in the lungs. Furthermore, this patient originally had 5 years previously

a history of colon cancer and chronic

constipation. She was very thirsty, had a chronic non-productive dry cough,

low grade fever, had severe night sweats, dyspnea and rapid breathing. She had

developed pneumonia over the past week as well. After taking the herbal

medicine, her sweating stopped, her cough virtually stopped, her breathing

slowed down, she had much more strength, and was able to talk without using

oxygen. Also, not to be underestimated, she smiled. Was the treatment a

failure? No way! Again, as I implied in an earlier post, what I learned from

this experience, is to begin treatment as early as possible, and to engage the

attending physician and/or hospice nurse in dialogue as to my experience in

previous hospice patients with Morphine, Methadone and Vicodin. Also, I would

involve family members, so that they too will be knowledgable and not

intimidated into capitulating to the pressure on them. So often decisions are

based upon default. I want to avoid irreversable actions,

which can cost a life. If the patient doesn't make it, it's heartbreaking.

But knowing that I did everything I know how to to proactively help my patient

in some way regain balance, while at the same time preventing harmful

therapeutics, gives me the comfort in knowing that I have fulfilled my

responsibility. I believe that we are detectives, translators, tour guides

and messengers. As detectives it is incumbant upon us to read all the clues

given to us. As translators, we need to learn how to listen to our patients,

the words of their mouths and body language, as well as learning to hear with

the proprioceptors in our fingers the language of their bodies. As tour guides,

we need to not have agendas, but follow the intelligent guidance that is given

to us by our patients, " really " listening! and we must always be humble enough

to know that we are just messengers, not healers. If we follow this guidance,

our egos will not get in the way. Failure then can only

come from not following instructions due to ignorance, ego, negligence, or

incompetance.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

Hello Yehuda,

Not sure what you were treating with the herbs / acupuncture - but I'm

assuming it was pain? I'm also going to assume it was stage 4 lung Ca

beyond western treatment based on your reporting. Assuming that is

all correct, do you consider your treatment a failure? Your patient

said they felt better shortly before passing away after battling a

hideous disease - that sounds like a success to me. The morphine was

probably very helpful for comfort, and sometimes if the dose is quite

high - to help passing on as well.

 

After treating a few late stage cancer patients, you loose any

thoughts that you are going to bring them back from the brink of

destruction - all I can pray for is a swift comfortable death at home

with their family around them. I am not an expert, but defer to the

expertise of the oncologists working with the patient to get a good

idea of what the treatment plan should be - fight or get ready to pass

on. Julian Scott taught us that sometimes you just help give the

patient enough Qi to pass away. You see a lot of people in the

hospital that are too weak to die, which is a terrible way to go.

 

Geoff

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer

patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker,

BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV

morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very

cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how

much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down

significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to

her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her

signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial

to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she

passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may

have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in.

My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I just lost my father two weeks ago to cancer at 71 years old. He had an

oligoglioblastoma that was diagnosed a year and a half ago. He lived in

California and came out to visit my family for a month visit when he passed.

He had been doing acupuncture, two hours of qi gong a day and a number of

different supplements, but in the end the tumor still grew to the point that

it compressed his right hemisphere enough to cause a stroke. In his case he

was kept on a pretty low dose of morphine over the week where he eventually

passed. I know you aren't looking to start a debate here (and neither am

I), but there was no chance of recovery for him so we had decided to pull

his IV fluids. He continued to eat a bit with some assistance for a short

time. I couldn't help but think that although he was comfortable, his death

was facilitated by starvation and dehydration. I think we treat our dogs

better than this, but I know a lot of this may hinge on ones religious

beliefs.

 

Respectfully,

 

Sean

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of yehuda frischman

Sunday, August 19, 2007 11:47 PM

 

Re: re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

 

 

 

Al Stone <al <al%40gancao.net> > wrote: Dear Al,

You may have no problem with it, but I have a big problem with it:

1. The decision is made by the western physician rather than the patient. My

patient had specifically told me that she wanted to live and was willing to

endure pain, as long as she had a chance to live. Then when she was sent

home, she was sent home with instruction to start the Morphine drip

immediately. That was the beginning of the end. And,BTW, it only made her

incoherent and spacey. There as terrrible groaning and pain, which never

ended until the end, from the onset of the IV, which began about 2 hours

after I left. Let the patient make an informed decision. If the CM physician

feels that a)quality of life can be improved and b)there is what to be done

to give the patient a chance (even though the Western docs had given up) ,

then certainly don't dogmatically automatically begin the drip!

Again, I see very little difference between this and euthanasia, which to

me, is unacceptable, though I don't believe this is an appropriate forum to

engage in debate as to its merits or not.

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

You can read up on Ying Su Ke for more info on how TCM sees the opium husk

and to a certain extent the effects of morphine.

 

" This unrooting of the spirit which slips loose and floats away. " That's a

lovely image. I got no problem with this sort of intervention at the end of

a painful disorder and intuitively see a bed-ridden death as this very

experience.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

Early treatment is great - and the best chance you have to attack the

cancer. I get the feeling you are blaming the narcotics for the

patients death. Cancer killed the patient, and at some point nothing

is going to change that. Alon noted the 'off-label' use for the

respiratory suppression. God only knows where the cut-off point is.

As for the patient wanting to fight, that's great, and hope helps!

Paraphrasing an earlier post by Alon on another topic he said you have

to objectively evaluate the results of your treatment independently

from the patient's desire (and ours!) that it's working. Treating

terminally ill patients, it's hard to not to let your personal

feelings prevent you from seeing the true nature of the disease.

Personally, after working with several terminally ill patients and

having some friends in town who are in hospice nursing, I know it

takes a very special kind of person to endure that labor - and I'm

just not one who could do it day in and out like they do.

 

As for sharing your experience with the docs who are experts in their

field about their medicine and informing the family contradictory to

what the oncologists are informing the family about, that will be

another war you will decide to wage. It can have some serious

personal, professional, and malpractice ramifications. The " maybe you

should ask your doctor about the side-effects of this medication " can

easily become " my acupuncturist told me to stop taking this

medication " - regardless of how well you document in your chart!

 

Best regards,

Geoff

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

A patient can always refuse medication or any other treatment. Also, i have seen

pt in severe pain change their mind all the time about what they want done. When

they feel a little better they think they can stop treatment when pain returns

they bag for more medication

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:46 PM

Re: re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

 

 

Al Stone <al wrote: Dear Al,

You may have no problem with it, but I have a big problem with it:

1. The decision is made by the western physician rather than the patient. My

patient had specifically told me that she wanted to live and was willing to

endure pain, as long as she had a chance to live. Then when she was sent home,

she was sent home with instruction to start the Morphine drip immediately. That

was the beginning of the end. And,BTW, it only made her incoherent and spacey.

There as terrrible groaning and pain, which never ended until the end, from the

onset of the IV, which began about 2 hours after I left. Let the patient make an

informed decision. If the CM physician feels that a)quality of life can be

improved and b)there is what to be done to give the patient a chance (even

though the Western docs had given up) , then certainly don't dogmatically

automatically begin the drip!

Again, I see very little difference between this and euthanasia, which to me,

is unacceptable, though I don't believe this is an appropriate forum to engage

in debate as to its merits or not.

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

You can read up on Ying Su Ke for more info on how TCM sees the opium husk

and to a certain extent the effects of morphine.

 

" This unrooting of the spirit which slips loose and floats away. " That's a

lovely image. I got no problem with this sort of intervention at the end of

a painful disorder and intuitively see a bed-ridden death as this very

experience.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Monday, August 20, 2007 1:43 AM

Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Yes and no. because I integrate CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional

release into my treatments (among other things), I feel comfortable utilitzing

my hands-on therapies to address co-existing pain issues, while at the same time

unblocking some of the blockage the cancer has caused. Also, I feel very

strongly that cancer is a process, often long term which results from the

sympathetic nervous system being under constant vigilence, working overtime.

With CranioSacral therapy, patients are able to let go and maybe for the first

time in years get out of fight or flight. As far as the herbs and acupuncture I

use, I don't treat Western conditions rather I try to determine the patient's

patterns in order to establish differential diagnosis. This patient presented

with severe lung, stomach and kidney yin xu, which had transformed into toxic

heat in the lungs. Furthermore, this patient originally had 5 years previously a

history of colon cancer and chronic

constipation. She was very thirsty, had a chronic non-productive dry cough,

low grade fever, had severe night sweats, dyspnea and rapid breathing. She had

developed pneumonia over the past week as well. After taking the herbal

medicine, her sweating stopped, her cough virtually stopped, her breathing

slowed down, she had much more strength, and was able to talk without using

oxygen. Also, not to be underestimated, she smiled. Was the treatment a failure?

No way! Again, as I implied in an earlier post, what I learned from this

experience, is to begin treatment as early as possible, and to engage the

attending physician and/or hospice nurse in dialogue as to my experience in

previous hospice patients with Morphine, Methadone and Vicodin. Also, I would

involve family members, so that they too will be knowledgable and not

intimidated into capitulating to the pressure on them. So often decisions are

based upon default. I want to avoid irreversable actions,

which can cost a life. If the patient doesn't make it, it's heartbreaking. But

knowing that I did everything I know how to to proactively help my patient in

some way regain balance, while at the same time preventing harmful therapeutics,

gives me the comfort in knowing that I have fulfilled my responsibility. I

believe that we are detectives, translators, tour guides and messengers. As

detectives it is incumbant upon us to read all the clues given to us. As

translators, we need to learn how to listen to our patients, the words of their

mouths and body language, as well as learning to hear with the proprioceptors in

our fingers the language of their bodies. As tour guides, we need to not have

agendas, but follow the intelligent guidance that is given to us by our

patients, " really " listening! and we must always be humble enough to know that

we are just messengers, not healers. If we follow this guidance, our egos will

not get in the way. Failure then can only

come from not following instructions due to ignorance, ego, negligence, or

incompetance.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

Hello Yehuda,

Not sure what you were treating with the herbs / acupuncture - but I'm

assuming it was pain? I'm also going to assume it was stage 4 lung Ca

beyond western treatment based on your reporting. Assuming that is

all correct, do you consider your treatment a failure? Your patient

said they felt better shortly before passing away after battling a

hideous disease - that sounds like a success to me. The morphine was

probably very helpful for comfort, and sometimes if the dose is quite

high - to help passing on as well.

 

After treating a few late stage cancer patients, you loose any

thoughts that you are going to bring them back from the brink of

destruction - all I can pray for is a swift comfortable death at home

with their family around them. I am not an expert, but defer to the

expertise of the oncologists working with the patient to get a good

idea of what the treatment plan should be - fight or get ready to pass

on. Julian Scott taught us that sometimes you just help give the

patient enough Qi to pass away. You see a lot of people in the

hospital that are too weak to die, which is a terrible way to go.

 

Geoff

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer

patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker,

BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV

morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very

cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how

much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down

significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to

her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her

signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial

to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she

passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may

have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in.

My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

 

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

[Guest guest]

Geoff,

 

IMVHO, I don't believe that the understanding you have of my post is

completely clear. The statement that narcotics killed the patient, is just not

accurate. Nor is the statement that cancer killed the patient, completely

accurate. Cancer is not some monster that invades the body like an aggressive

exterior pathogen. It is a long unrelenting, insidious excruciatingly

complicated process, that sometimes takes 20 or 30 years before its ugly face

reveals itself openly. The question is not blame, either. It is rather

incredibly important to begin to understand the pathogenic factors in order to

stop and hopefully reverse them as early as possible. So, in viewing a cancer

patient I feel it is inappropriate to judge like in a court of law. There was a

bootleg Bob Dylan song that I used to listen to called, " Who Killed Davy Moore? "

In it all the different killers of a prize fighter give excuses that " it wasn't

me, I was just doing my job! " , including the fighter who

knocked him out, the manager, the doctor, the promoter, the fan asking for more

blood, etc. The same here. I feel that blame doesn't change anything. Rather

we need to ask ourselves, what elements have contributed to and accelerated a

given patient's functionality, quality of life and ultimately death. I say that

heroic pain killers in the context of a hospice patient must be used with

greater thoughtfulness and humility, and should not be administered

automatically! Of course, relief of pain is incredibly important, but

everything is not a straight forward black and white!

As far as relating to family members, again, you have to set your own

priorities, and risks for that matter. I am not afraid of giving a patient's

family, information either orally or in writing, for them to make an informed

decision on the use of Methadone, morphine or other heroic analgesics and the

risks involved. I am not afraid of engaging a hospice nurse or attending

physician in an informative civil conversation empowering them with information

that they may not have had heretofore.

 

The decision is yours.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

 

G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

Yehuda,

Early treatment is great - and the best chance you have to attack the

cancer. I get the feeling you are blaming the narcotics for the

patients death. Cancer killed the patient, and at some point nothing

is going to change that. Alon noted the 'off-label' use for the

respiratory suppression. God only knows where the cut-off point is.

As for the patient wanting to fight, that's great, and hope helps!

Paraphrasing an earlier post by Alon on another topic he said you have

to objectively evaluate the results of your treatment independently

from the patient's desire (and ours!) that it's working. Treating

terminally ill patients, it's hard to not to let your personal

feelings prevent you from seeing the true nature of the disease.

Personally, after working with several terminally ill patients and

having some friends in town who are in hospice nursing, I know it

takes a very special kind of person to endure that labor - and I'm

just not one who could do it day in and out like they do.

 

As for sharing your experience with the docs who are experts in their

field about their medicine and informing the family contradictory to

what the oncologists are informing the family about, that will be

another war you will decide to wage. It can have some serious

personal, professional, and malpractice ramifications. The " maybe you

should ask your doctor about the side-effects of this medication " can

easily become " my acupuncturist told me to stop taking this

medication " - regardless of how well you document in your chart!

 

Best regards,

Geoff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I agree 100%. But the problem is when a patient is given pain medicine

unbeknownst to them or their family.

 

Yehuda

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

A patient can always refuse medication or any other treatment. Also, i have seen

pt in severe pain change their mind all the time about what they want done. When

they feel a little better they think they can stop treatment when pain returns

they bag for more medication

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

 

Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:46 PM

Re: re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

Al Stone <al wrote: Dear Al,

You may have no problem with it, but I have a big problem with it:

1. The decision is made by the western physician rather than the patient. My

patient had specifically told me that she wanted to live and was willing to

endure pain, as long as she had a chance to live. Then when she was sent home,

she was sent home with instruction to start the Morphine drip immediately. That

was the beginning of the end. And,BTW, it only made her incoherent and spacey.

There as terrrible groaning and pain, which never ended until the end, from the

onset of the IV, which began about 2 hours after I left. Let the patient make an

informed decision. If the CM physician feels that a)quality of life can be

improved and b)there is what to be done to give the patient a chance (even

though the Western docs had given up) , then certainly don't dogmatically

automatically begin the drip!

Again, I see very little difference between this and euthanasia, which to me, is

unacceptable, though I don't believe this is an appropriate forum to engage in

debate as to its merits or not.

 

Yehuda

 

You can read up on Ying Su Ke for more info on how TCM sees the opium husk

and to a certain extent the effects of morphine.

 

" This unrooting of the spirit which slips loose and floats away. " That's a

lovely image. I got no problem with this sort of intervention at the end of

a painful disorder and intuitively see a bed-ridden death as this very

experience.

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

As I have said on multiple occasions, I am a relatively new practitioner.

This was my 5th hospice patient.

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

 

Monday, August 20, 2007 1:43 AM

Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Yes and no. because I integrate CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional release

into my treatments (among other things), I feel comfortable utilitzing my

hands-on therapies to address co-existing pain issues, while at the same time

unblocking some of the blockage the cancer has caused. Also, I feel very

strongly that cancer is a process, often long term which results from the

sympathetic nervous system being under constant vigilence, working overtime.

With CranioSacral therapy, patients are able to let go and maybe for the first

time in years get out of fight or flight. As far as the herbs and acupuncture I

use, I don't treat Western conditions rather I try to determine the patient's

patterns in order to establish differential diagnosis. This patient presented

with severe lung, stomach and kidney yin xu, which had transformed into toxic

heat in the lungs. Furthermore, this patient originally had 5 years previously a

history of colon cancer and chronic

constipation. She was very thirsty, had a chronic non-productive dry cough, low

grade fever, had severe night sweats, dyspnea and rapid breathing. She had

developed pneumonia over the past week as well. After taking the herbal

medicine, her sweating stopped, her cough virtually stopped, her breathing

slowed down, she had much more strength, and was able to talk without using

oxygen. Also, not to be underestimated, she smiled. Was the treatment a failure?

No way! Again, as I implied in an earlier post, what I learned from this

experience, is to begin treatment as early as possible, and to engage the

attending physician and/or hospice nurse in dialogue as to my experience in

previous hospice patients with Morphine, Methadone and Vicodin. Also, I would

involve family members, so that they too will be knowledgable and not

intimidated into capitulating to the pressure on them. So often decisions are

based upon default. I want to avoid irreversable actions,

which can cost a life. If the patient doesn't make it, it's heartbreaking. But

knowing that I did everything I know how to to proactively help my patient in

some way regain balance, while at the same time preventing harmful therapeutics,

gives me the comfort in knowing that I have fulfilled my responsibility. I

believe that we are detectives, translators, tour guides and messengers. As

detectives it is incumbant upon us to read all the clues given to us. As

translators, we need to learn how to listen to our patients, the words of their

mouths and body language, as well as learning to hear with the proprioceptors in

our fingers the language of their bodies. As tour guides, we need to not have

agendas, but follow the intelligent guidance that is given to us by our

patients, " really " listening! and we must always be humble enough to know that

we are just messengers, not healers. If we follow this guidance, our egos will

not get in the way. Failure then can only

come from not following instructions due to ignorance, ego, negligence, or

incompetance.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

Hello Yehuda,

Not sure what you were treating with the herbs / acupuncture - but I'm

assuming it was pain? I'm also going to assume it was stage 4 lung Ca

beyond western treatment based on your reporting. Assuming that is

all correct, do you consider your treatment a failure? Your patient

said they felt better shortly before passing away after battling a

hideous disease - that sounds like a success to me. The morphine was

probably very helpful for comfort, and sometimes if the dose is quite

high - to help passing on as well.

 

After treating a few late stage cancer patients, you loose any

thoughts that you are going to bring them back from the brink of

destruction - all I can pray for is a swift comfortable death at home

with their family around them. I am not an expert, but defer to the

expertise of the oncologists working with the patient to get a good

idea of what the treatment plan should be - fight or get ready to pass

on. Julian Scott taught us that sometimes you just help give the

patient enough Qi to pass away. You see a lot of people in the

hospital that are too weak to die, which is a terrible way to go.

 

Geoff

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer

patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker,

BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV

morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very

cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how

much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down

significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to

her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her

signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial

to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she

passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may

have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in.

My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Would that be the same Qi that caused the Birth operating till Death?

Just a thought.

Take care.

amy RN.LMT.AP.DOM

 

 

 

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

I would therefore be careful not to come to any conclusion as of yet. And by the

way cancer pain is not considered to be sympathetically mediated, related to

facilitated segments or dural related. It is by definition none of the above

being a true nociceptive lesion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Monday, August 20, 2007 11:17 AM

Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

 

Alon,

 

As I have said on multiple occasions, I am a relatively new practitioner. This

was my 5th hospice patient.

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Monday, August 20, 2007 1:43 AM

Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Yes and no. because I integrate CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional

release into my treatments (among other things), I feel comfortable utilitzing

my hands-on therapies to address co-existing pain issues, while at the same time

unblocking some of the blockage the cancer has caused. Also, I feel very

strongly that cancer is a process, often long term which results from the

sympathetic nervous system being under constant vigilence, working overtime.

With CranioSacral therapy, patients are able to let go and maybe for the first

time in years get out of fight or flight. As far as the herbs and acupuncture I

use, I don't treat Western conditions rather I try to determine the patient's

patterns in order to establish differential diagnosis. This patient presented

with severe lung, stomach and kidney yin xu, which had transformed into toxic

heat in the lungs. Furthermore, this patient originally had 5 years previously a

history of colon cancer and chronic

constipation. She was very thirsty, had a chronic non-productive dry cough,

low grade fever, had severe night sweats, dyspnea and rapid breathing. She had

developed pneumonia over the past week as well. After taking the herbal

medicine, her sweating stopped, her cough virtually stopped, her breathing

slowed down, she had much more strength, and was able to talk without using

oxygen. Also, not to be underestimated, she smiled. Was the treatment a failure?

No way! Again, as I implied in an earlier post, what I learned from this

experience, is to begin treatment as early as possible, and to engage the

attending physician and/or hospice nurse in dialogue as to my experience in

previous hospice patients with Morphine, Methadone and Vicodin. Also, I would

involve family members, so that they too will be knowledgable and not

intimidated into capitulating to the pressure on them. So often decisions are

based upon default. I want to avoid irreversable actions,

which can cost a life. If the patient doesn't make it, it's heartbreaking. But

knowing that I did everything I know how to to proactively help my patient in

some way regain balance, while at the same time preventing harmful therapeutics,

gives me the comfort in knowing that I have fulfilled my responsibility. I

believe that we are detectives, translators, tour guides and messengers. As

detectives it is incumbant upon us to read all the clues given to us. As

translators, we need to learn how to listen to our patients, the words of their

mouths and body language, as well as learning to hear with the proprioceptors in

our fingers the language of their bodies. As tour guides, we need to not have

agendas, but follow the intelligent guidance that is given to us by our

patients, " really " listening! and we must always be humble enough to know that

we are just messengers, not healers. If we follow this guidance, our egos will

not get in the way. Failure then can only

come from not following instructions due to ignorance, ego, negligence, or

incompetance.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

G Hudson <crudo20 wrote:

Hello Yehuda,

Not sure what you were treating with the herbs / acupuncture - but I'm

assuming it was pain? I'm also going to assume it was stage 4 lung Ca

beyond western treatment based on your reporting. Assuming that is

all correct, do you consider your treatment a failure? Your patient

said they felt better shortly before passing away after battling a

hideous disease - that sounds like a success to me. The morphine was

probably very helpful for comfort, and sometimes if the dose is quite

high - to help passing on as well.

 

After treating a few late stage cancer patients, you loose any

thoughts that you are going to bring them back from the brink of

destruction - all I can pray for is a swift comfortable death at home

with their family around them. I am not an expert, but defer to the

expertise of the oncologists working with the patient to get a good

idea of what the treatment plan should be - fight or get ready to pass

on. Julian Scott taught us that sometimes you just help give the

patient enough Qi to pass away. You see a lot of people in the

hospital that are too weak to die, which is a terrible way to go.

 

Geoff

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer

patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker,

BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western

physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV

morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very

cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how

much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down

significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also

brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to

her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her

signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial

to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she

passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may

have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in.

My question is, have any of

> you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as

Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a

patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after

receiving the analgesic Western intervention.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda

 

 

Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel.

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I am constantly learning and re-evaluating. I would point out, though, two

considerations which have been articulated in our groups which are the basis of

my conviction:

 

1. There is clearly an agenda in hospice medicine

 

" to assist the pt & family for a peaceful passing " Pts are given heavy doses of

narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then death.It takes 24-48hrs to work "

 

quoting nurse Amy, an insider in hospice care.

 

2. The literature clearly indicates that Methadone and Morphine do damage

internal organs and hasten death.

 

Yehuda

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

I would therefore be careful not to come to any conclusion as of yet. And by the

way cancer pain is not considered to be sympathetically mediated, related to

facilitated segments or dural related. It is by definition none of the above

being a true nociceptive lesion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

 

Monday, August 20, 2007 11:17 AM

Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics

 

Alon,

 

As I have said on multiple occasions, I am a relatively new practitioner. This

was my 5th hospice patient.

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain