Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Something I have learned and experienced working at Hospice in San Diego is that it takes qi to die. If qi is being used to deal with pain, then it is not available to use for the death process. Sometimes when the pain is dealt with (and there is no unfinished business), the qi can then move to the death process. Death can, and sometimes does, follow palliation of pain. This is not referring to patients who are being given or taking higher doses than necessary for palliation, nor those whose pain is not able to be palliated. JMHO. Sincerely, Margi Duran, LAc wrote: Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western intervention. Sincerely, Yehuda Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Yehuda if you do give advise on the use of methadone or other analgesics make sure you really know the clinical reality of these drugs. One cannot look at a PDR and think that is a reflection of the real world. Narcotics are remarkably safe, except for addiction which is not a problem with end of life care (overdose is a different problem and usually not from medical intervention). The problem i see every day is patients have not been managed with regard to the cause of their pain so they end up addicted to narcotics. There are however many cases were the only solution is to include narcotics if the patient is to become functional. - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 11:12 AM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Geoff, IMVHO, I don't believe that the understanding you have of my post is completely clear. The statement that narcotics killed the patient, is just not accurate. Nor is the statement that cancer killed the patient, completely accurate. Cancer is not some monster that invades the body like an aggressive exterior pathogen. It is a long unrelenting, insidious excruciatingly complicated process, that sometimes takes 20 or 30 years before its ugly face reveals itself openly. The question is not blame, either. It is rather incredibly important to begin to understand the pathogenic factors in order to stop and hopefully reverse them as early as possible. So, in viewing a cancer patient I feel it is inappropriate to judge like in a court of law. There was a bootleg Bob Dylan song that I used to listen to called, " Who Killed Davy Moore? " In it all the different killers of a prize fighter give excuses that " it wasn't me, I was just doing my job! " , including the fighter who knocked him out, the manager, the doctor, the promoter, the fan asking for more blood, etc. The same here. I feel that blame doesn't change anything. Rather we need to ask ourselves, what elements have contributed to and accelerated a given patient's functionality, quality of life and ultimately death. I say that heroic pain killers in the context of a hospice patient must be used with greater thoughtfulness and humility, and should not be administered automatically! Of course, relief of pain is incredibly important, but everything is not a straight forward black and white! As far as relating to family members, again, you have to set your own priorities, and risks for that matter. I am not afraid of giving a patient's family, information either orally or in writing, for them to make an informed decision on the use of Methadone, morphine or other heroic analgesics and the risks involved. I am not afraid of engaging a hospice nurse or attending physician in an informative civil conversation empowering them with information that they may not have had heretofore. The decision is yours. Respectfully, Yehuda G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: Yehuda, Early treatment is great - and the best chance you have to attack the cancer. I get the feeling you are blaming the narcotics for the patients death. Cancer killed the patient, and at some point nothing is going to change that. Alon noted the 'off-label' use for the respiratory suppression. God only knows where the cut-off point is. As for the patient wanting to fight, that's great, and hope helps! Paraphrasing an earlier post by Alon on another topic he said you have to objectively evaluate the results of your treatment independently from the patient's desire (and ours!) that it's working. Treating terminally ill patients, it's hard to not to let your personal feelings prevent you from seeing the true nature of the disease. Personally, after working with several terminally ill patients and having some friends in town who are in hospice nursing, I know it takes a very special kind of person to endure that labor - and I'm just not one who could do it day in and out like they do. As for sharing your experience with the docs who are experts in their field about their medicine and informing the family contradictory to what the oncologists are informing the family about, that will be another war you will decide to wage. It can have some serious personal, professional, and malpractice ramifications. The " maybe you should ask your doctor about the side-effects of this medication " can easily become " my acupuncturist told me to stop taking this medication " - regardless of how well you document in your chart! Best regards, Geoff Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Oral methadone has demonstrated an excellent record of effectiveness and safety during the more than 60 years since its development. During more than 40 years clinical use as methadone maintenance treatment (MMT) for opioid addiction, hundreds of studies have examined the pharmacology and efficacy of oral methadone. With a greater understanding of methadone and its proper prescribing, it has proven to be a well-tolerated medication, without serious adverse reactions or associated organ damage, even in patients taking the drug for more than 20 years (Leavitt 2003, 2006). As a result, methadone also has re-emerged as an important opioid analgesic. - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 1:31 PM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Alon, I am constantly learning and re-evaluating. I would point out, though, two considerations which have been articulated in our groups which are the basis of my conviction: 1. There is clearly an agenda in hospice medicine " to assist the pt & family for a peaceful passing " Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then death.It takes 24-48hrs to work " quoting nurse Amy, an insider in hospice care. 2. The literature clearly indicates that Methadone and Morphine do damage internal organs and hasten death. Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I would therefore be careful not to come to any conclusion as of yet. And by the way cancer pain is not considered to be sympathetically mediated, related to facilitated segments or dural related. It is by definition none of the above being a true nociceptive lesion - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 11:17 AM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Alon, As I have said on multiple occasions, I am a relatively new practitioner. This was my 5th hospice patient. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Alon, I posted a link previously unscoring the concern that the FDA had with life-threatening respiratory depression and cardiac arrhythmias resulting from inappropriate methadone dosaging. As it hasn't been posted yet here it is again. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/548340?src=mp I believe that compare apples and oranges: The use of methadone as a treatment of opiate addiction where often the patient is quite hardy, is very different than its use in debilitated cancer patients. Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Oral methadone has demonstrated an excellent record of effectiveness and safety during the more than 60 years since its development. During more than 40 years clinical use as methadone maintenance treatment (MMT) for opioid addiction, hundreds of studies have examined the pharmacology and efficacy of oral methadone. With a greater understanding of methadone and its proper prescribing, it has proven to be a well-tolerated medication, without serious adverse reactions or associated organ damage, even in patients taking the drug for more than 20 years (Leavitt 2003, 2006). As a result, methadone also has re-emerged as an important opioid analgesic. - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 1:31 PM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Alon, I am constantly learning and re-evaluating. I would point out, though, two considerations which have been articulated in our groups which are the basis of my conviction: 1. There is clearly an agenda in hospice medicine " to assist the pt & family for a peaceful passing " Pts are given heavy doses of narc, usually morphine, to induce coma, then death.It takes 24-48hrs to work " quoting nurse Amy, an insider in hospice care. 2. The literature clearly indicates that Methadone and Morphine do damage internal organs and hasten death. Yehuda Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I would therefore be careful not to come to any conclusion as of yet. And by the way cancer pain is not considered to be sympathetically mediated, related to facilitated segments or dural related. It is by definition none of the above being a true nociceptive lesion - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 11:17 AM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Alon, As I have said on multiple occasions, I am a relatively new practitioner. This was my 5th hospice patient. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda How many hospice patients have you treated cancer pain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2007 Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 , yehuda frischman < wrote: >It is a long unrelenting, insidious excruciatingly complicated process, that sometimes takes 20 or 30 years before its ugly face I thought that way but I'll never forget a school mate a year younger than me who had one leg amputated and died of lung cancer 6 months later - in kindergarten. I think we sometimes overthink things being a long drawn out complex process. >empowering them with information that they may not have had heretofore. That's quite interesting. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Dear Yehuda, and everyone, I've taken care of 3 patients who have died of cancer; 2 since I became an acupuncturist. Two accepted pain meds, one didn't. It's important to remember that a terminal patient (or any patient) can refuse treatment or medication; your patient wasn't forced to hook up the morphine drip. If our patients have forgotten that ultimately they can and should make these important (and informed) decisions, despite their doctor's (or our) suggestions and instructions, we can gently remind them. I think it's also important to keep in mind that it hasn't been very long since the western medical establishment finally came to grips with the idea that if pain can be relieved, it should be relieved, especially in terminal patients, and no more forcing people to buck up and bear it. As far as I know, we (in Chinese medicine) don't have legal access to herbs that are anywhere nearly as effective for this type of massive pain relief, nor have I seen acupuncture to be reliably useful for controlling this immense type of pain - if I'm wrong, someone please direct me to sources where I can learn better! But of the 3 patients I've been with, one was terrified of experiencing the kind of pain terminal cancer patients can experience, and as a nurse, she knew exactly what was possible as far as pain goes. Not providing her with sufficient morphine, in spite of its side-effects, would have been the same as forcing her to undergo extended torture, a practice regularly engaged in by western med until it was seen to be an ethical dilemma. The second patient was so exhausted from months and months and months of treatments that she literally begged to be allowed to die, and experienced horrible anxiety attacks (in part induced by her extreme lung qi xu) that were agony to watch and agony for her to bear; her pain levels were not so high, so her narcotic intake was low, but without it she would have been even more exhausted from fighting a greater level of pain and fear. The third, who refused pain meds, didn't experience great pain, although it grew as she grew closer to death; but she also experienced terrible anxiety attacks as she grew closer to death - again, not uncommon in terminal cancer patients as the lung and heart qi become so frail. The two patients I was treating as an acupuncturist received great physical and emotional/mental comfort (and some hours of apparently remarkable energy and seeming recovery) from treatments until just about a day and a half prior to death; at that point, needles became too much for them to bear; nor were they able to tolerate herbs at that point. This is also when the anxiety attacks began, and it wouldn't be surprising if the groaning and pain your patient endured were also from this anxiety. The qi in the chest becomes too frail to root the spirit, the patient feels as if she's unable to breath, the heart becomes uncertain, anxiety and great discomfort is overwhelming. Both of these patients - with and without narcotics - seemed to rally and improve hours before going into their final decline, which was consequently seemingly sudden and surprising. All patients have different abilities to tolerate pain and exhaustion and strange sensations in the body; and what we think we will willingly endure, we often discover we cannot bear once we're deeply into the actuality of the experience. I'm glad that western med is making sure that adequate pain relief is available to such patients, whether they think they want it or not, so they can make quick use of it if they discover they do want it. Enduring pain can also hasten death in the frail. As healers, it's our ability, as well as our grace, to be able to fortify those who wish to endure, as well as to bring ease to those who are undergoing the unbearable. But at some point, each spirit will release itself from the body, and the physical breakdown that accompanies that is inevitable and mysterious and universal. I think that at that point, we healers must become witnesses and comforters; we must comfort our patients and their companions that what is happening is what is supposed to happen; and we must comfort ourselves that we've done whatever could be done, and that it was important, and good, and a blessing. I think, from your description, that if your patient was not beyond the point of healing, the morphine she had wouldn't have made a difference in her lifespan and she would still be living; and if she was so close to death that the morphine did shorten her life, it was shortened only by a matter of hours, and that her body and spirit had already untied most of the knots that keep them bound together. The morphine didn't kill her, the cancer and the cancer treatments and her own immune system failure did; the morphine may have shortened her experience of dying. You gave her some good hours in the short time she had left, that she might not have had without your care; try to take some comfort in that. I think you need comforting, dear heart. The time for us to intervene, if we can, is earlier in the treatment of cancer, so we can help our patients survive the cure, and increase the chances that there will be a cure. That will be a big struggle, because western cancer treatment is still uncertain, and the MDs are terrified of adding any variable into their already uncertain attempts. ---Deb Marshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Thank you, Deb. Very sobering, indeed. I would like to humbly add two thoughts in response to your elequent comments: first, though patient's are not forced to accept strong pain killers, often, they are either in an extremely weakened state or semi-conscious, and there is tremendous pressure placed upon family members to " ease the suffering. " The implication is that to not accept heroic doses of the narcotics shows heartlessless. Yet even that is not an unreasonable argument on face value. Which brings me to point two: Rarely, as many of you have said, is acupuncture analgesia adequate. The key is integrating other powerful modalities as well such as CranioSacral therapy and SomatoEmotional release. I have found often that very sick patients hold onto deep physical, emotional, mental and spiritual traumas, which they carry around with them like heavy weights and promote a continued pattern of guardedness and sympathetic hypertonicity (chronic fight or flight). This causes yet more inflammation and the release of cortisol and adrenaline. It may even be the root and pathogenetic cause of the cancer. By releasing the trauma, the patient experiences deep relaxation and relief of pain. This evening, I treated a young 25 year old woman who had been having digestive disorders her whole life. She had all the five accumulations indicated in Yue Ju San, (Qi stagnation, blood stasis, food stagnation, heat, and phlegm/dampness). Yet while treating the area of her liver and diaphragm, I felt a hard rubberiness and I engaged her in therapeutic dialogue. To make a long story short, her father was physically and verbally abusive, and the trauma of seeing her mother abused as a six year old, left a profound imprint on her which she consciously didn't remember at all. The session took two hours, but afterwards she said that she felt 20 lbs lighter and her countenance was completely different. I didn't initiate anything but merely " listened " to her body and facilitated what she needed to do. I feel that this needs to be an essential element in the treatment of cancer patients as well. All the best, Yehuda Deb Marshall <taichideb wrote: Dear Yehuda, and everyone, I've taken care of 3 patients who have died of cancer; 2 since I became an acupuncturist. Two accepted pain meds, one didn't. It's important to remember that a terminal patient (or any patient) can refuse treatment or medication; your patient wasn't forced to hook up the morphine drip. If our patients have forgotten that ultimately they can and should make these important (and informed) decisions, despite their doctor's (or our) suggestions and instructions, we can gently remind them. I think it's also important to keep in mind that it hasn't been very long since the western medical establishment finally came to grips with the idea that if pain can be relieved, it should be relieved, especially in terminal patients, and no more forcing people to buck up and bear it. As far as I know, we (in Chinese medicine) don't have legal access to herbs that are anywhere nearly as effective for this type of massive pain relief, nor have I seen acupuncture to be reliably useful for controlling this immense type of pain - if I'm wrong, someone please direct me to sources where I can learn better! But of the 3 patients I've been with, one was terrified of experiencing the kind of pain terminal cancer patients can experience, and as a nurse, she knew exactly what was possible as far as pain goes. Not providing her with sufficient morphine, in spite of its side-effects, would have been the same as forcing her to undergo extended torture, a practice regularly engaged in by western med until it was seen to be an ethical dilemma. The second patient was so exhausted from months and months and months of treatments that she literally begged to be allowed to die, and experienced horrible anxiety attacks (in part induced by her extreme lung qi xu) that were agony to watch and agony for her to bear; her pain levels were not so high, so her narcotic intake was low, but without it she would have been even more exhausted from fighting a greater level of pain and fear. The third, who refused pain meds, didn't experience great pain, although it grew as she grew closer to death; but she also experienced terrible anxiety attacks as she grew closer to death - again, not uncommon in terminal cancer patients as the lung and heart qi become so frail. The two patients I was treating as an acupuncturist received great physical and emotional/mental comfort (and some hours of apparently remarkable energy and seeming recovery) from treatments until just about a day and a half prior to death; at that point, needles became too much for them to bear; nor were they able to tolerate herbs at that point. This is also when the anxiety attacks began, and it wouldn't be surprising if the groaning and pain your patient endured were also from this anxiety. The qi in the chest becomes too frail to root the spirit, the patient feels as if she's unable to breath, the heart becomes uncertain, anxiety and great discomfort is overwhelming. Both of these patients - with and without narcotics - seemed to rally and improve hours before going into their final decline, which was consequently seemingly sudden and surprising. All patients have different abilities to tolerate pain and exhaustion and strange sensations in the body; and what we think we will willingly endure, we often discover we cannot bear once we're deeply into the actuality of the experience. I'm glad that western med is making sure that adequate pain relief is available to such patients, whether they think they want it or not, so they can make quick use of it if they discover they do want it. Enduring pain can also hasten death in the frail. As healers, it's our ability, as well as our grace, to be able to fortify those who wish to endure, as well as to bring ease to those who are undergoing the unbearable. But at some point, each spirit will release itself from the body, and the physical breakdown that accompanies that is inevitable and mysterious and universal. I think that at that point, we healers must become witnesses and comforters; we must comfort our patients and their companions that what is happening is what is supposed to happen; and we must comfort ourselves that we've done whatever could be done, and that it was important, and good, and a blessing. I think, from your description, that if your patient was not beyond the point of healing, the morphine she had wouldn't have made a difference in her lifespan and she would still be living; and if she was so close to death that the morphine did shorten her life, it was shortened only by a matter of hours, and that her body and spirit had already untied most of the knots that keep them bound together. The morphine didn't kill her, the cancer and the cancer treatments and her own immune system failure did; the morphine may have shortened her experience of dying. You gave her some good hours in the short time she had left, that she might not have had without your care; try to take some comfort in that. I think you need comforting, dear heart. The time for us to intervene, if we can, is earlier in the treatment of cancer, so we can help our patients survive the cure, and increase the chances that there will be a cure. That will be a big struggle, because western cancer treatment is still uncertain, and the MDs are terrified of adding any variable into their already uncertain attempts. ---Deb Marshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Like I said, cancer is a process. What sets it in motion is the $64,000 question. In the case of that young child could it have been a genetic disturbance? An in-utero trauma experienced as a fetus? Who knows? Maybe someday soon, we will be able to tap into cellular memory and be able to determine what sets the process in motion. G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: --- In , yehuda frischman < wrote: >It is a long unrelenting, insidious excruciatingly complicated process, that sometimes takes 20 or 30 years before its ugly face I thought that way but I'll never forget a school mate a year younger than me who had one leg amputated and died of lung cancer 6 months later - in kindergarten. I think we sometimes overthink things being a long drawn out complex process. >empowering them with information that they may not have had heretofore. That's quite interesting. Geoff Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 I've been working on an inpt oncology unit now for 3yrs and have seen many pts transition to death. I have never seen any RN or MD hasten a pt's death with opiates just to speed things up. Pain is tricky - cancer pain is extremely so. Sometimes the fine line between comfort (no pain) and supression of the pt's breathing is a difficult edge to walk. All I know is that if I'm ever in that position, I would choose pain relief (and possibly a speedier death) rather than to suffer. Also, some of the finest human beings I know work for Hospice - more caring and compassionate than most other people walking around. To imply that Hospice workers behave unethically or euthanize their charges is Fightin' Words -- but I'm going out of town for the next week on a retreat for women who have been touched by cancer. Too bad I'll miss the rest of this thread! :-) Janet Yelowchan, ND, LAc, LPC, LAC Medicine Buddha Clinic 1533 Corydalis Ct Fort Collins, CO 80526 970.494.1120 www.bluebuddha.net Chinese Medicine , Margi Duran <healingqilac wrote: > > Something I have learned and experienced working at Hospice in San Diego is that it takes qi to die. If qi is being used to deal with pain, then it is not available to use for the death process. Sometimes when the pain is dealt with (and there is no unfinished business), the qi can then move to the death process. Death can, and sometimes does, follow palliation of pain. This is not referring to patients who are being given or taking higher doses than necessary for palliation, nor those whose pain is not able to be palliated. > JMHO. > Sincerely, > Margi Duran, LAc > > wrote: > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of > you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western intervention. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Yehuda Dosing methadone is quite a skill that should be done only by exports. We probably have several hundred pt on methadone at our clinic and none had any problems what so ever. As i said one need to understand the medicine one gives advice on or prescribes - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 4:43 PM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Dear Janet, Please let me clarify: first of all I am not implying that hospice MDs or RNs deliberately euthanize. What I am saying, though, is that their sincere desire to comfort their patients and give them relief motivates an increase in dosaging, and indirectly, that can be lethal! Our world and the medical profession is general is filled with some of the finest, most sincere human being around. But understanding dosaging, the potential for organ damage and the encouraging complementary therapies as I have spoken about, are at least as important as bedside manner and sincerity in my opinion. Sincerely, Yehuda janety410 <janet wrote: I've been working on an inpt oncology unit now for 3yrs and have seen many pts transition to death. I have never seen any RN or MD hasten a pt's death with opiates just to speed things up. Pain is tricky - cancer pain is extremely so. Sometimes the fine line between comfort (no pain) and supression of the pt's breathing is a difficult edge to walk. All I know is that if I'm ever in that position, I would choose pain relief (and possibly a speedier death) rather than to suffer. Also, some of the finest human beings I know work for Hospice - more caring and compassionate than most other people walking around. To imply that Hospice workers behave unethically or euthanize their charges is Fightin' Words -- but I'm going out of town for the next week on a retreat for women who have been touched by cancer. Too bad I'll miss the rest of this thread! :-) Janet Yelowchan, ND, LAc, LPC, LAC Medicine Buddha Clinic 1533 Corydalis Ct Fort Collins, CO 80526 970.494.1120 www.bluebuddha.net Chinese Medicine , Margi Duran <healingqilac wrote: > > Something I have learned and experienced working at Hospice in San Diego is that it takes qi to die. If qi is being used to deal with pain, then it is not available to use for the death process. Sometimes when the pain is dealt with (and there is no unfinished business), the qi can then move to the death process. Death can, and sometimes does, follow palliation of pain. This is not referring to patients who are being given or taking higher doses than necessary for palliation, nor those whose pain is not able to be palliated. > JMHO. > Sincerely, > Margi Duran, LAc > > wrote: > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > I want to compare notes with those of you who have treated cancer patients. Last week, I treated a lung cancer patient (a non-smoker, BTW) , who had been given up on and sent home to die by her Western physician--except that he insisted that she receive a high dose of IV morphine to " help her cope with pain. " She and her family will very cooperative, and excitedly called me each evening to report on how much better they felt she was doing. The level of her pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of > you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western intervention. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda > > > > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 I agree, but the problem seems to be that not everyone who prescribes it understands that. Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda Dosing methadone is quite a skill that should be done only by exports. We probably have several hundred pt on methadone at our clinic and none had any problems what so ever. As i said one need to understand the medicine one gives advice on or prescribes - yehuda frischman Monday, August 20, 2007 4:43 PM Re: Re: cancer patients and strong analgesics Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hi Yehuda...I think the question that I would have, and that I would ask you clarify fully for the group is whether the patient was in pain or not, and whether this pain justified morphine - in other words, did the patient ask for it. In any case, it is clear that both morphine and poppies (from which morphine is derived) can cause generalised weakness, dizziness, mental cloudiness, deficiency type headaches and so on. Morphine itself has a dangerous side-effect termed respiratory depression. Supposedly morphine also affects a part of the brain called the chemotactic trigger zone, which leads to nausea and vomiting. This leads to a fairly clear picture in terms of , although western medicine is adamant that the above effects are not clinically significant - docs are just supposed to keep an eye out for respiratory depression. So the dangerous question about whether or not the docs are killing people by administering morphine? I guess I would not be sedating or " hypometabolising " someone who is in a weakened state. Thoughts? Hugo pain was down significantly Friday, after my second treatment with her (I also brought her a decoction of herbs which her family faithfully gave to her), but nonetheless, her Western physician said that since her signs and Xrays were so discouraging, he felt it would be beneficial to increase the IV morphine. After that it was all downhill, and she passed away this morning. I strongly suspect that the Morphine may have just too strong for someone in her fragile state, and did her in. My question is, have any of you had similar experiences with strong pain killers such as Methadone, Morphine or Vicodin? This is my 3rd " coincidence " when a patient who was showing significant improvement, passed away after receiving the analgesic Western intervention. Sincerely, Yehuda www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net ------------ --------- --------- --- Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 What underlies these issues is our culture's immature and unexamined fears and beliefs about Death and Dying. If there existed a healthier and more open realtionship to these we probably wouldn,t be having this conversation. Like Birth ...Death is good,hard and beautiful. And so is Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Turiya, I would substitute the word " Pain " for " Death " in your post. You are right that people are afraid of death and view it as a monster to be avoided at all costs, when in reality, it doesn't have to be feared. But, there is a difference: like birth, death is a gift which we don't have a choice in avoiding, but pain is a gift which we DO have a choice in dealing with: either ignoring, avoiding or blocking (which resolves nothing and can actually exascerbate the accompanying cause) or listing, releasing and resolving. respectfully, Yehuda Turiya Hill <turiya wrote: What underlies these issues is our culture's immature and unexamined fears and beliefs about Death and Dying. If there existed a healthier and more open realtionship to these we probably wouldn,t be having this conversation. Like Birth ...Death is good,hard and beautiful. And so is Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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