Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Hi Nam and all, just to go along with what you're writing... The Asian Medicine Industry has a long fight ahead to gain the status that MDs enjoy in this country. The majority of people in this country see us as technicians at best or " bush doctors " or " witch doctors " or " snake-oil peddlers " at worst. I live in a progressive area, East Bay California, so I'm insulated from a lot of those problems, but every time I travel to Colorado or the Midwest, the climate changes, so to speak, where people rain down doubt and distrust for this " alternative " modality. I " m wondering for people who practice outside of hot spots, such as California, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico, Florida, Austin, TX etc... how much energy do you have to spend educating the general public that what we're doing isn't " hogwash " .? Of course, those who come to your clinic under their own accord don't even count. I'm talking about the millions of people out there who are told by their MDs that Chinese herbs don't work because : 1. The herbs that we use are laden with heavy metals such as lead and mercury. (of course, the fact that they come from China stigmatizes our industry, because of the lead paint issue in the news) 2. The herbs that we sell can not be dosed specifically by chemical compound content, since each batch may be different, depending on when, where and from whom, we're sourcing it from. I'm only passing this along, because I have a cousin who was taught recently in her med school that these are two reasons why people shouldn't trust our medicine. (No joke) Of course, these med students will relay this to their patients every time they say that they're also getting treated by an " acupuncturist " . In fact, a patient told me that their M.D. repeated exactly that. Can you blame them? They don't know anything about Asian medicine, except that Oprah tried it and what their med schools taught them. Also, inherent in our industry's own limitations are the fact that we allow associates degree or the equivalent (2 years of undergraduate) as an entry into this medicine. I've heard from both sides on this issue; one, we want to get more people through the doors, so that we can have more " manpower " on the other side. Contrasting with this, we can't complain about being called " technicians " , because we: 1. allow for only 2 years as a pre-requisite for entry into our schools 2. we don't have an entry level exam, such as the MCATs... 3. many Asian medical schools in the country have only around 2000 hours of didactic/clinical training. (contrast this with med schools, D.O. schools and D.C. schools - 4200 hours minimum) 4. we don't have an official residency training available for graduates What can we do about this? On 8/16/07, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > Hi everybody, > I am sorry to hear about this, about the TCM title " Dr. or Ph.D " . > My good friend " Harry Potter " has a feeling about all of us, TCM , > is having a fake degree. I think he is absolutely right, a fake > degree. I do not even think that TCM can be considered as a > technician. If we , TCM , are considered technicans as such , we are > extremely lucky because we are recognized and we can have a job at > least a little above the minimum wage. > A technician or an AA degree in any field can transfer his units > everywhere and can be accepted for a job in his degree. I know that an > Electronic Assembler without experience can be hired for $12.00/ hr, > experienced $14- $18.00/ hr; Electronic technician $$18.81 - $32.00/hr > ; computer technician $ $18.00 -$32.00/hr ; Radiology techinican $18 - > $27.00/hr same as X-ray technician. > TCM with Ph.d or Dr. " degree " can get for what, how much ? > $8.00/hr part-time only or even nothing, share a room or get pay > 40/60. With this degree we can survive for this kind of negotiation. > A front office clerk without experience can get pay for $10-$15.00/ hr > FT. So why are we struggling or among ourselves or reasoning about > ourselves for a title " Dr. " ? We had been ripped ? We 've been > cheated. Our title or units are not even recgonized nor transferred to > any school at all. Then why ask for title ? Why do we believe we are > better than this , better than that... Our ego was damaged and we are > defending it. > I think our best position is to complain to our school for a fake > degree and demand punitive damaged. They must do something about it. > THere are thousands and thousands of students graduated in big debt > struggling looking for a job or something related to TCM to earn a > living and to pay his debts, but there is nothing for them! This is a > reality. We must face this and fight this for our next generation. > Or target is our school , the cheater. I believe and I truly believe > it with my friend that all TCMs " most of them are Oriental, > businessmen like are the keys " . Most our teachers came from foreign > country " China " and they claimed that they are MD in China or > claimed all kinds of titles. They are here to teach us with minimum > pay. Even after you graduated and consider to teach in one of TCM > school with your Ph.D degree. Will they pay you the salary equivalent > to the nationwide degree? Or they will rip you off? > > WE ONCE GET CHEATED AND IF WE THINK THAT IS NOT ENOUGH AND GO FOR > ABORM ONCE MORE TIME ??? THIS IS REALLY FUNNY ! DO NOT LET THEM FOOL > US ANYMORE........ FORGET ABOUT ABORM AT THIS TIME. > WE HAVE TO FIGHT. THE FIGHT SHOULD BE TAKEN PLACE IN OR FROM OUR > SCHOOL. > > Nam Nguyen > > . > > > -- aka Mu bong Lim Father of Bhakti Confidentiality Notice: THE INFORMATION AND ANY ATTACHMENTS CONTAINED IN THIS EMAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED RECIPIENT(S) NAMED ABOVE. This message may be proprietary and/or attorney-client communication, and as such is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or any agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error, and that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. 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Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Hi John and all: Number 1 is total hogwash in my opinion. Can someone explain to me exactly which field offered in any university " preps " a student for ? Right, Chinese language studies, perhaps Chinese cultural studies. Certainly physics, engineering, law or chemistry doesn't prep for CM, and, in fact, can greatly impair CM education. I don't believe we need prerequiste training. In fact, empty your teacup before starting CM schooling. What CM schools need to do is simply make their programs more rigorous, preferably by maintaining a small teacher / student ratio, and ensuring that each student _gets_ the material taught. Period. We do not need to follow the western university model which churns out plenty of graduates, many of which are unprepared for the job market or do not have a job market to go into - there is no solution there. My two cents, Hugo <johnkokko 1. allow for only 2 years as a pre-requisite for entry into our schools 2. we don't have an entry level exam, such as the MCATs... 3. many Asian medical schools in the country have only around 2000 hours of didactic/clinical training. (contrast this with med schools, D.O. schools and D.C. schools - 4200 hours minimum) 4. we don't have an official residency training available for graduates <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{ font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} ..bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-vital a { text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc { background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o {font-size:0;} ..MsoNormal { margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} ..replbq {margin:4;} --> _________ Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Hi Hugo, You are right about skipping the prerequisite training. However, We have followed and completed all the requirements of TCM, but what we get at the end? The fake degree. And that was not enough, they also created Ph.D and we all know that they are unacceptable degree. unrecognized, not accredited, not as they ( TCM schools ) clearly stated " accredited " . IT is now for more tempted, ABORM . Why don't we do something to stop this kind of behave? ACCREDITED, MY PHONY HOLY !!!!!!!!! Any organization can open itself a school and claims that his title is accredited but not so I think this constitutes a fraud. Can we see something fishy? Nam Nguyen Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi John and all: > Number 1 is total hogwash in my opinion. > Can someone explain to me exactly which field offered in any university " preps " a student for ? Right, Chinese language studies, perhaps Chinese cultural studies. Certainly physics, engineering, law or chemistry doesn't prep for CM, and, in fact, can greatly impair CM education. > I don't believe we need prerequiste training. In fact, empty your teacup before starting CM schooling. > > What CM schools need to do is simply make their programs more rigorous, preferably by maintaining a small teacher / student ratio, and ensuring that each student _gets_ the material taught. Period. We do not need to follow the western university model which churns out plenty of graduates, many of which are unprepared for the job market or do not have a job market to go into - there is no solution there. > > My two cents, > Hugo > > > > <johnkokko > > > > 1. allow for only 2 years as a pre-requisite for entry into our schools > > 2. we don't have an entry level exam, such as the MCATs... > > 3. many Asian medical schools in the country have only around 2000 hours of > > didactic/clinical training. > > (contrast this with med schools, D.O. schools and D.C. schools - 4200 hours > > minimum) > > 4. we don't have an official residency training available for graduates > > > > > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family:Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family:Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white-space:nowrap;} > .bld{font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom:10px;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\ ercase;} > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\ ght:.5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-vital a { > text-decoration:none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc { > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\ ;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration:none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o {font-size:0;} > .MsoNormal { > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120%;} > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq {margin:4;} > --> > > > _________ > Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 I don't know much about all the politics, Nam, I just know that a sincere teacher will teach well, and that sincere students will learn well. This is a good formula and leads to success. Perhaps there is a lack of both types, who knows. Sadly, Hugo dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 Chinese Medicine Thursday, 16 August, 2007 8:50:20 AM Re: Technicians vs Doctors Hi Hugo, You are right about skipping the prerequisite training. However, We have followed and completed all the requirements of TCM, but what we get at the end? The fake degree. And that was not enough, they also created Ph.D and we all know that they are unacceptable degree. unrecognized, not accredited, not as they ( TCM schools ) clearly stated " accredited " . IT is now for more tempted, ABORM . Why don't we do something to stop this kind of behave? ACCREDITED, MY PHONY HOLY !!!!!!!!! Any organization can open itself a school and claims that his title is accredited but not so I think this constitutes a fraud. Can we see something fishy? Nam Nguyen Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John and all: > Number 1 is total hogwash in my opinion. > Can someone explain to me exactly which field offered in any university " preps " a student for ? Right, Chinese language studies, perhaps Chinese cultural studies. Certainly physics, engineering, law or chemistry doesn't prep for CM, and, in fact, can greatly impair CM education. > I don't believe we need prerequiste training. In fact, empty your teacup before starting CM schooling. > > What CM schools need to do is simply make their programs more rigorous, preferably by maintaining a small teacher / student ratio, and ensuring that each student _gets_ the material taught. Period. We do not need to follow the western university model which churns out plenty of graduates, many of which are unprepared for the job market or do not have a job market to go into - there is no solution there. > > My two cents, > Hugo > > > > <johnkokko@. ..> > > > > 1. allow for only 2 years as a pre-requisite for entry into our schools > > 2. we don't have an entry level exam, such as the MCATs... > > 3. many Asian medical schools in the country have only around 2000 hours of > > didactic/clinical training. > > (contrast this with med schools, D.O. schools and D.C. schools - 4200 hours > > minimum) > > 4. we don't have an official residency training available for graduates > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <!-- > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family: Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family: Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; } > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white- space:nowrap; } > .bld{font-weight: bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom: 10px;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform: uppercase; } > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-right: .5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight: bold;} > #ygrp-vital a { > text-decoration: none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration: underline; } > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font- size:77%; } > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; } > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc { > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration: none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration: underline; } > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o {font-size:0; } > .MsoNormal { > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120% ;} > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq {margin:4;} > --> > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2007 Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 Acupuncturists have a comparable level of education to that of a chiropractor, which needs two years of college (with prerequisites) and upon completion of their training and passing their boards, get the title DC (doctor of chiropractic). Being a doctor has to do with level of proficiency, which I believe that 99 % of those who have studied, passed their board, and have clinical experience would have. Just as with Western MDs, the more experience an acupuncturist has, the better they will be. No, our medicine is nothing like that of an MD, but that is in a sense comparing apples to oranges. We have our own system of medicine, just as a chiropractor does, just as a naturopathic doctor does. We should be looking to improve the quality of our education of course, but anyone who does not believe in the power of TCM should not be practicing ancient oriental medicine. marie s. LAc, LMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2007 Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 Marie, I must point out that entrance into chiropractic college requires 3 years of college, just like for most medical schools, and the courses must be of anat, physio, chem, biochem, math, physics, psych, etc. Many students enter with a Bachelor of Science degree, not sure what the % is though. The TCM level of education varies between schools (CA requires more hours and subjects) yet falls way short of the 4000 hours spent for MD, DC or ND training. Being a doctor has to do with training and amount of hours spent in classroom as well as what your state decides your title to be. This is one reason why there is the DAOM programs to get us up to the 4000 hr level. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : shamanist1: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:21:59 +0000Re: Technicians vs Doctors Acupuncturists have a comparable level of education to that of a chiropractor, which needs two years of college (with prerequisites) and upon completion of their training and passing their boards, get the title DC (doctor of chiropractic). Being a doctor has to do with level of proficiency, which I believe that 99 % of those who have studied, passed their board, and have clinical experience would have. Just as with Western MDs, the more experience an acupuncturist has, the better they will be. No, our medicine is nothing like that of an MD, but that is in a sense comparing apples to oranges. We have our own system of medicine, just as a chiropractor does, just as a naturopathic doctor does. We should be looking to improve the quality of our education of course, but anyone who does not believe in the power of TCM should not be practicing ancient oriental medicine.marie s. LAc, LMT _______________ Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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