Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Good propaganda story........who gave you those misleading " talking points " ? In a message dated 8/14/2007 1:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, angela.pf writes: " mike Bowser " <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) > <_traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_ (Chinese Traditional Medicine ) > Monday, August 13, 2007 9:15 PM RE: Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title. Richard, Nice try but your case law is for academic degrees only. If a person beats the trial maybe he had a good lawyer and it was his first misdemeanor charge. You state, " ...can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice. " It is misleading to claim you have a doctorate degree when in fact you do not. Whatis so hard to understand about either you do or you do not have one?You seem to forget that the federal govt grants the states the power to governand set up standards for its licensing boards, which it then leaves up to the state'sto regulate. The federal govt does not get involved here and this is not an issue ofinterstate commerce either. While the case you quote is interesting it bares little in connection with the issueat hand, which is that you seem to be claiming that a state's acupuncture statutescannot legally decide who we claim to be. We are not talking about your state fraud statute, but rather about a professional statute, which does havejurisdiction over it's state's acupuncturists. Do you not agree that we must follow our respective acupuncture board on this? You seem to disagree with this basic premise and yet I can only wonder from your email what poor example this might set for others. Just so you know, I think we need to change a lot of laws but for now they are what they are and I intend to follow them. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I think we need to keep focused on some real issues: yes, it would be great if we received doctoral titles from regionally accredited schools and right now that is not the case. It seems everyone agrees that this would be ideal, but it's not the case and the blame for this is being pushed around; the schools don't want to go the extra mile, smaller schools would go out of business, etc. It also seems that as a profession we have not created a definite mandate that this is what we want; which may in term be due to differences in the states. If you are a NM " doctor " you probably won't be very interested in additional education when you already have the title you want. Maybe we should talk about how we as a profession can work consistently towards becoming Doctors with degrees from regionally fully accredited schools instead of considering if there are loopholes that allow us with getting away with using a title and a degree that we all know we don't have!!! Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angela.pf Phone: 503 364 3022 - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, August 13, 2007 9:15 PM RE: Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title. Richard, Nice try but your case law is for academic degrees only. If a person beats the trial maybe he had a good lawyer and it was his first misdemeanor charge. You state, " ...can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice. " It is misleading to claim you have a doctorate degree when in fact you do not. Whatis so hard to understand about either you do or you do not have one?You seem to forget that the federal govt grants the states the power to governand set up standards for its licensing boards, which it then leaves up to the state'sto regulate. The federal govt does not get involved here and this is not an issue ofinterstate commerce either. While the case you quote is interesting it bares little in connection with the issueat hand, which is that you seem to be claiming that a state's acupuncture statutescannot legally decide who we claim to be. We are not talking about your state fraud statute, but rather about a professional statute, which does havejurisdiction over it's state's acupuncturists. Do you not agree that we must follow our respective acupuncture board on this? You seem to disagree with this basic premise and yet I can only wonder from your email what poor example this might set for others. Just so you know, I think we need to change a lot of laws but for now they are what they are and I intend to follow them. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:29:48 -0400Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title. MikeThis issue at root IS all about " commercial free speech " regarding the US Constitutional which takes precedent over a state's police powers especially when it comes to commerce which in this case was considered federal domain due to one's CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS as a US Citizen first and foremost.The several state's police powers and their state administrative agencies such as their Department(s) of Health and their sub-boards such as the Board(s) of Acupuncture do have a certain domain of police powers but which isseverly LIMITED to a NARROWLY TAILORED INTEREST in protecting the public.... which can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice.You relate that you have some sort of legal exposure.....so you must be capable of accessing, reading and understanding case law. So why don;t you all access this information and review the Federal court case which took place in Florida in 1996. A simple search on FIndLaw, Westlaw or LexusOne should give you access. Or do it the old fashioned way and go to a law library and pull the hard copy that way you will get to read the headnotes. Without offering or suggesting any legal advice.....and instead of interpreting oneself since not being legal minded or trained in the law.....one might take this to a Constitutional Lawyer and pay them for their evaluation!!!! Please resist on any further bickering as federal case law is crystal clear...... further proven by what just two of us accomplished here in Florida as seen by the adopted promulgated Administrative Code Rule effective September 27th, 2006........ some 10 years after the fraud statute was STRUCK DOWN. For those ten years we were all told these " urban legend tall tales " about prohibition on the use of doctor titles. Federal District Court Judge James Lawrence King's final words in cited case and I quote from copies of the actual case file in my hands after personally ordering the whole box of documents sent to me in Florida from the store house in Atlanta, Georgia: " Accordingly, after a careful review of the record, and the Court being otherwise fully advised, it isORDERED and ADJUDGED that Plaintiff's (Dr. Bart Strang III) for Summary Judgment be, and the same is hereby, GRANTED.It is FURTHER ORDERED and ADJUDGED that Florida Statute Sect. 817.567 be, and the same ishereby DECLARED unconstitutional and violative of the First Amendment of the United StatesConstitution.It is FURTHER ORDERED and ADJUDGED that Defendant Michael B. Satz as State Attorney forBroward County, Florida be, and the same is hereby, PERMANENTLY ENJOINED from enforcingthe provisions of Fla. Stat. Sect. 817.567 against Plaintiff Samuel Bartow Strang III. The Courtshall retain jurisdiction to hear motions for fees and costs pursuant to 42 U.S.C. Sect. 1988.DONE and ORDEREDS.D. Fla. 1995Strang v. Satz884 F. Supp. 504, 100 Ed. Law Rep. 182, 23 Media L.Rep. 2333 " Validity Decision as published in Florida's Annotated Statutes regarding Florida's fraud statute Chapter 817.567, Florida Statute which prohibited people from claiming to hold academic degrees or titles unless such degrees or titles were conferred by accredited institutions, violated First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution in that it was not narrowly tailored to achieve substantial government interest; state could have merely required those holding degrees from unaccredited institutions to disclose the fact that the institutions were unaccredited. See Strang v. Satz, S.D. Fla. 1995, F. Supp. 504. Strang v. Satz, Case No.94-6686-CIV-KING , In the United States District Court, Southern District of Florida, 1996.Comments: The Florida Attorney General did not appeal the ruling.Being exposed to legal work as you state, you know or should know that laws are only settled when challenged. Just because other state's laws possibly contain certain unconstitutional prohibitive sections within those laws or practice acts that may be violative of the First Amendment of the US Constitution does not mean they are lawful. Legal until challenged...... but not necessarily lawful.....if you understand the difference. In Florida such an issue went to a federal Court and they ruled that Florida's Fraud Statute was VIOLATIVE of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Therefore - when push came to shove so-to-speak the Florida Board of Acupuncture had no choice but to promulgate a rule as it did which has been posted if memory serves right in this arena...namely:64B1-9.007 Advertising.(1) Advertising by persons licensed or certified under Chapter 457, F.S., is permitted so long as theinformation disseminated is in no way false, deceptive, or misleading and so long as the information does not claim that acupuncture is useful in curing any disease. Any advertisement or advertising shall be deemed false, deceptive, or misleading if it:(a) Contains a misrepresentation of facts; or(b) Makes only a partial disclosure of relevant facts; or© Creates false or unjustified expectations of beneficial assistance; or(d) Contains any representations or claims, as to which the person making the claims does not intend to perform; or(e) Contains any other representation, statement, or claim which misleads or deceives; or(f) Fails to conspicuously identify the licensee by name in the advertisement.(2) As used in the rules of this board, the terms " advertisement " and " advertising " shall mean anystatements, oral or written, disseminated to or before the public or any portion thereof, with the intent of furthering the purpose, either directly or indirectly, of selling professional services, or offering to perform professional services, or inducing members of the public to enter into any obligation relating to such professional services.(3) It shall not be considered false, deceptive, or misleading for any persons licensed or certified under Chapter 457, F.S., to use the following initials or terms:(a) L.Ac.;(b) R.Ac.;© A.P.;(d) D.O.M.;(e) Licensed Acupuncturist;(f) Registered Acupuncturist;(g) Acupuncture Physician; and(h) Doctor of Oriental Medicine.(4) Any licensee who advertises through an agent or through a referral service shall be held responsible for the content of such advertising and shall ensure that the advertising complies with this rule and Chapter 457, F.S.Specific Authority 456.072, 457.104, 457.109 FS. Law Implemented 456.072(1)(a), (m), 457.109(1)(d), (e), (k) FS. History-New 9-27-06.In a message dated 08/13/07 7:17:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I know that you worked with a FL acu assoc and I also know that you had a toughtime with them. I am not sure why you are so hung up with the concept of free speech and that it does not apply to our board designation or regulationof our profession. You have the right to think and say things, yes you are correctbut when it comes to acupuncture you do not have the right to call yourself anythingnor do you have the right to do what you please and create your own scope of practice. Any attorney will tell you that. I would certainly take a look at some supposed case ifyou ever plan to post it. It might be interesting to read. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ See what you're getting into.before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Richard, You did and you also cited the inappropriate FL statute for our discussion. If you have a case where an LAc used an unearned doctor as a title, I would surely like to know of it. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:44:09 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles Good propaganda story........who gave you those misleading " talking points " ?In a message dated 8/14/2007 1:01:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, angela.pf writes: " mike Bowser " <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) >To: <_traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_ (Chinese Traditional Medicine ) >Monday, August 13, 2007 9:15 PMRE: Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title.Richard,Nice try but your case law is for academic degrees only. If a person beats thetrial maybe he had a good lawyer and it was his first misdemeanor charge.You state, " ...can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice. " It is misleading to claim you have a doctorate degree when in fact you do not. Whatis so hard to understand about either you do or you do not have one?You seem to forget that the federal govt grants the states the power to governand set up standards for its licensing boards, which it then leaves up to the state'sto regulate. The federal govt does not get involved here and this is not an issue ofinterstate commerce either. While the case you quote is interesting it bares little in connection with the issueat hand, which is that you seem to be claiming that a state's acupuncture statutescannot legally decide who we claim to be. We are not talking about your state fraudstatute, but rather about a professional statute, which does havejurisdiction over it's state's acupuncturists.Do you not agree that we must follow our respective acupuncture board on this?You seem to disagree with this basic premise and yet I can only wonder from youremail what poor example this might set for others.Just so you know, I think we need to change a lot of laws but for now they arewhat they are and I intend to follow them. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ See what you’re getting into…before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Angela, Regional accreditation would be great and some programs are getting it done but we still have programs with no accreditation status at all. I know of one in CA and there are several elsewhere across the US. The issue with the doctorate was coming from some small programs and online (out of state) companies that try to imply you can earn a doctorate. This may be a source of some impetus for the DAOM programs that have taken off. There are a couple of these DAOM's are now accredited by ACAOM.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : angela.pf: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 09:18:04 -0700Re: TCM Doctoral Titles I think we need to keep focused on some real issues: yes, it would be great if we received doctoral titles from regionally accredited schools and right now that is not the case. It seems everyone agrees that this would be ideal, but it's not the case and the blame for this is being pushed around; the schools don't want to go the extra mile, smaller schools would go out of business, etc. It also seems that as a profession we have not created a definite mandate that this is what we want; which may in term be due to differences in the states. If you are a NM " doctor " you probably won't be very interested in additional education when you already have the title you want. Maybe we should talk about how we as a profession can work consistently towards becoming Doctors with degrees from regionally fully accredited schools instead of considering if there are loopholes that allow us with getting away with using a title and a degree that we all know we don't have!!!Regards,Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.angela.pf: 503 364 3022- " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1To: <Chinese Traditional Medicine >Monday, August 13, 2007 9:15 PMRE: Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title.Richard,Nice try but your case law is for academic degrees only. If a person beats thetrial maybe he had a good lawyer and it was his first misdemeanor charge.You state, " ...can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice. " It is misleading to claim you have a doctorate degree when in fact you do not. Whatis so hard to understand about either you do or you do not have one?You seem to forget that the federal govt grants the states the power to governand set up standards for its licensing boards, which it then leaves up to the state'sto regulate. The federal govt does not get involved here and this is not an issue ofinterstate commerce either. While the case you quote is interesting it bares little in connection with the issueat hand, which is that you seem to be claiming that a state's acupuncture statutescannot legally decide who we claim to be. We are not talking about your state fraudstatute, but rather about a professional statute, which does havejurisdiction over it's state's acupuncturists.Do you not agree that we must follow our respective acupuncture board on this?You seem to disagree with this basic premise and yet I can only wonder from youremail what poor example this might set for others.Just so you know, I think we need to change a lot of laws but for now they arewhat they are and I intend to follow them. Mike W. Bowser, L AcTo: Chinese Medicine: acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:29:48 -0400Re: Federal Case Law striking DOWN Florida's Fraud Statute on Doctor title.MikeThis issue at root IS all about " commercial free speech " regarding the US Constitutional which takes precedent over a state's police powers especially when it comes to commerce which in this case was considered federal domain due to one's CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS as a US Citizen first and foremost.The several state's police powers and their state administrative agencies such as their Department(s) of Health and their sub-boards such as the Board(s) of Acupuncture do have a certain domain of police powers but which isseverly LIMITED to a NARROWLY TAILORED INTEREST in protecting the public.... which can NOT prohibit a commercial business (including professionals) from " free speech in commerce " as long as that speech is not misleading or intended to mislead and the business is operating within the scope of practice.You relate that you have some sort of legal exposure.....so you must be capable of accessing, reading and understanding case law. So why don;t you all access this information and review the Federal court case which took place in Florida in 1996. A simple search on FIndLaw, Westlaw or LexusOne should give you access. Or do it the old fashioned way and go to a law library and pull the hard copy that way you will get to read the headnotes. Without offering or suggesting any legal advice.....and instead of interpreting oneself since not being legal minded or trained in the law.....one might take this to a Constitutional Lawyer and pay them for their evaluation!!!! Please resist on any further bickering as federal case law is crystal clear...... further proven by what just two of us accomplished here in Florida as seen by the adopted promulgated Administrative Code Rule effective September 27th, 2006........ some 10 years after the fraud statute was STRUCK DOWN. For those ten years we were all told these " urban legend tall tales " about prohibition on the use of doctor titles. Federal District Court Judge James Lawrence King's final words in cited case and I quote from copies of the actual case file in my hands after personally ordering the whole box of documents sent to me in Florida from the store house in Atlanta, Georgia: " Accordingly, after a careful review of the record, and the Court being otherwise fully advised, it isORDERED and ADJUDGED that Plaintiff's (Dr. Bart Strang III) for Summary Judgment be, and the same is hereby, GRANTED.It is FURTHER ORDERED and ADJUDGED that Florida Statute Sect. 817.567 be, and the same ishereby DECLARED unconstitutional and violative of the First Amendment of the United StatesConstitution.It is FURTHER ORDERED and ADJUDGED that Defendant Michael B. Satz as State Attorney forBroward County, Florida be, and the same is hereby, PERMANENTLY ENJOINED from enforcingthe provisions of Fla. Stat. Sect. 817.567 against Plaintiff Samuel Bartow Strang III. The Courtshall retain jurisdiction to hear motions for fees and costs pursuant to 42 U.S.C. Sect. 1988.DONE and ORDEREDS.D. Fla. 1995Strang v. Satz884 F. Supp. 504, 100 Ed. Law Rep. 182, 23 Media L.Rep. 2333 " Validity Decision as published in Florida's Annotated Statutes regarding Florida's fraud statute Chapter 817.567, Florida Statute which prohibited people from claiming to hold academic degrees or titles unless such degrees or titles were conferred by accredited institutions, violated First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution in that it was not narrowly tailored to achieve substantial government interest; state could have merely required those holding degrees from unaccredited institutions to disclose the fact that the institutions were unaccredited. See Strang v. Satz, S.D. Fla. 1995, F. Supp. 504. Strang v. Satz, Case No.94-6686-CIV-KING , In the United States District Court, Southern District of Florida, 1996.Comments: The Florida Attorney General did not appeal the ruling.Being exposed to legal work as you state, you know or should know that laws are only settled when challenged. Just because other state's laws possibly contain certain unconstitutional prohibitive sections within those laws or practice acts that may be violative of the First Amendment of the US Constitution does not mean they are lawful. Legal until challenged...... but not necessarily lawful.....if you understand the difference. In Florida such an issue went to a federal Court and they ruled that Florida's Fraud Statute was VIOLATIVE of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Therefore - when push came to shove so-to-speak the Florida Board of Acupuncture had no choice but to promulgate a rule as it did which has been posted if memory serves right in this arena...namely:64B1-9.007 Advertising.(1) Advertising by persons licensed or certified under Chapter 457, F.S., is permitted so long as theinformation disseminated is in no way false, deceptive, or misleading and so long as the information does not claim that acupuncture is useful in curing any disease. Any advertisement or advertising shall be deemed false, deceptive, or misleading if it:(a) Contains a misrepresentation of facts; or(b) Makes only a partial disclosure of relevant facts; or© Creates false or unjustified expectations of beneficial assistance; or(d) Contains any representations or claims, as to which the person making the claims does not intend to perform; or(e) Contains any other representation, statement, or claim which misleads or deceives; or(f) Fails to conspicuously identify the licensee by name in the advertisement.(2) As used in the rules of this board, the terms " advertisement " and " advertising " shall mean anystatements, oral or written, disseminated to or before the public or any portion thereof, with the intent of furthering the purpose, either directly or indirectly, of selling professional services, or offering to perform professional services, or inducing members of the public to enter into any obligation relating to such professional services.(3) It shall not be considered false, deceptive, or misleading for any persons licensed or certified under Chapter 457, F.S., to use the following initials or terms:(a) L.Ac.;(b) R.Ac.;© A.P.;(d) D.O.M.;(e) Licensed Acupuncturist;(f) Registered Acupuncturist;(g) Acupuncture Physician; and(h) Doctor of Oriental Medicine.(4) Any licensee who advertises through an agent or through a referral service shall be held responsible for the content of such advertising and shall ensure that the advertising complies with this rule and Chapter 457, F.S.Specific Authority 456.072, 457.104, 457.109 FS. Law Implemented 456.072(1)(a), (m), 457.109(1)(d), (e), (k) FS. History-New 9-27-06.In a message dated 08/13/07 7:17:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I know that you worked with a FL acu assoc and I also know that you had a toughtime with them. I am not sure why you are so hung up with the concept of free speech and that it does not apply to our board designation or regulationof our profession. You have the right to think and say things, yes you are correctbut when it comes to acupuncture you do not have the right to call yourself anythingnor do you have the right to do what you please and create your own scope of practice. Any attorney will tell you that. I would certainly take a look at some supposed case ifyou ever plan to post it. It might be interesting to read. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]________See what you're getting into.before you go therehttp://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507[N\ on-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Links _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Mike As I said......good propaganda story and who gave you those " talking points " ? Do you work for MDs? Practitioners paying attention have seen of late both in Florida and West Virginia to name a few states.....several acupuncturists who also hold massage therapy licenses who vehemently object to the doctor title. Yes there should be more laws especially for those who want to just be technicians. It appears that chiropractors are once again on the move......and this time the aim is to take over the acupuncture profession. Last time they virtually wiped out naturopathy by making deals with the allopaths. Appropriate Florida statutes and federal case law get and got the job done therefore I will not waste any time or effort. Feel free to discuss ad infinitum OFF POINT issues. Richard In a message dated 08/14/07 4:46:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, You did and you also cited the inappropriate FL statute for our discussion. If you have a case where an LAc used an unearned doctor as a title, I would surely like to know of it. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Mike You continue to skirt the issue(s) and ignore what is right before your eyes and you continue to side step answering the questions. Do you work for an MD? Are you a licensed massage therapist? I don't give legal advice so stop trying to inveigle me. I was born at night....just not last night. In the end you and others if really interested enough might get your answer by hiring a Constitutional lawyer otherwise all the " chewing of the fat ad infinitum ad nauseum " won't do any one any good. Round and round the merry-go-round goes. Richard In a message dated 08/14/07 11:45:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: As I stated you gave me the info but have not provided any tangible proof or an answer as to whether you think our state licensing boards can regulate our usage of the term doctor without having one. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Mike It appears that you and many others do not have a grasp on your rights as a citizen of the United States of America under the US Constitution. That's understandable as most people do not understand nor have a grasp on those rights even though they have lived in this country their whole lives. There appears to be only one way for it to get through and that is for anyone interested.....to take those cases to a Constitutional lawyer. After laying out some hard dollars on the table and then hearing it from a lawyer maybe it will sink in. If you insist on running with the merry-go-round.....have fun. Richard In a message dated 08/15/07 12:05:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, You gave me the info but it does not support your assumptions as one case was about academic PhD graduates could not use " Dr " in front of their name. This was the FL statute listed with the first case. Your second case or the one that Bill Mosca sent me referred to an attorney who was also a cpa and advertised financial planning even though they were not actively involved with such. I do not see how this is in any way connected with our state licensing boards regulation of our title or specifically usage of " doctor " . Maybe there was mention of something in your case notes but the summary I read was clearly missing this info. So why do you not believe that state acu boards have the right to determine our designation?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Mike State Boards of Acupuncture under the police powers of the several states have every right to determine certain aspects of a practice scope especially when it comes to the protection of its citizens health.......just not to where it VIOLATES your Constitutional rights as a US Citizen. Those rights come first and foremost....especially in the case of " free speech " . So if you are really interested in finding out the reasoning behind all of this you might purchase a copy of the US Constitution and spend some time studying it instead of playing the role that others should TELL you or advise you or PROVE to you. And of course you could always PAY the lawyer for that advice I was in the dark as many......until such time as I purchased a copy and studied it along with case law and actually was involved in suing the State of Florida over Naturopathy but that's another story not for this arena. Richard In a message dated 08/15/07 12:05:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: So why do you not believe that state acu boards have the right to determine our designation? ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Richard, As I stated you gave me the info but have not provided any tangible proof or an answer as to whether you think our state licensing boards can regulate our usage of the term doctor without having one. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:48:05 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles MikeAs I said......good propaganda story and who gave you those " talking points " ?Do you work for MDs?Practitioners paying attention have seen of late both in Florida and West Virginia to name a few states.....several acupuncturists who also hold massage therapy licenses who vehemently object to the doctor title. Yes there should be more laws especially for those who want to just be technicians.It appears that chiropractors are once again on the move......and this time the aim is to take over the acupuncture profession. Last time they virtually wiped out naturopathy by making deals with the allopaths.Appropriate Florida statutes and federal case law get and got the job done therefore I will not waste any time or effort. Feel free to discuss ad infinitum OFF POINT issues.RichardIn a message dated 08/14/07 4:46:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,You did and you also cited the inappropriate FL statute for our discussion. If you havea case where an LAc used an unearned doctor as a title, I would surely like to knowof it. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Richard, You gave me the info but it does not support your assumptions as one case was about academic PhD graduates could not use " Dr " in front of their name. This was the FL statute listed with the first case. Your second case or the one that Bill Mosca sent me referred to an attorney who was also a cpa and advertised financial planning even though they were not actively involved with such. I do not see how this is in any way connected with our state licensing boards regulation of our title or specifically usage of " doctor " . Maybe there was mention of something in your case notes but the summary I read was clearly missing this info. So why do you not believe that state acu boards have the right to determine our designation?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:48:05 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles MikeAs I said......good propaganda story and who gave you those " talking points " ?Do you work for MDs?Practitioners paying attention have seen of late both in Florida and West Virginia to name a few states.....several acupuncturists who also hold massage therapy licenses who vehemently object to the doctor title. Yes there should be more laws especially for those who want to just be technicians.It appears that chiropractors are once again on the move......and this time the aim is to take over the acupuncture profession. Last time they virtually wiped out naturopathy by making deals with the allopaths.Appropriate Florida statutes and federal case law get and got the job done therefore I will not waste any time or effort. Feel free to discuss ad infinitum OFF POINT issues.RichardIn a message dated 08/14/07 4:46:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,You did and you also cited the inappropriate FL statute for our discussion. If you havea case where an LAc used an unearned doctor as a title, I would surely like to knowof it. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ See what you’re getting into…before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Richard, The issue was about usage of the title doctor and you have once again neglected to answer this simply question. Do you think that state licensing boards can legally determine practitioner usage of the term doctor, yes or no?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:52:52 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles MikeYou continue to skirt the issue(s) and ignore what is right before your eyes and you continue to side step answering the questions.Do you work for an MD?Are you a licensed massage therapist?I don't give legal advice so stop trying to inveigle me. I was born at night....just not last night. In the end you and others if really interested enough might get your answer by hiring a Constitutional lawyer otherwise all the " chewing of the fat ad infinitum ad nauseum " won't do any one any good. Round and round the merry-go-round goes.RichardIn a message dated 08/14/07 11:45:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:As I stated you gave me the info but have not provided any tangibleproof or an answer as to whether you think our state licensingboards can regulate our usage of the term doctor without havingone. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=\ 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp\ e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Mike and Richard, Am I the only one who has noticed the irony that both of you use the term " doc " in your email addresses? -David Lesseps, student On Aug 14, 2007, at 9:17 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > Richard, > > The issue was about usage of the title doctor and you have once again > neglected > to answer this simply question. Do you think that state licensing > boards can > legally determine practitioner usage of the term doctor, yes or > no?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > : > acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:52:52 -0400Re: TCM > - Re: TCM Doctoral Titles > > > > > MikeYou continue to skirt the issue(s) and ignore what is right before > your eyes and you continue to side step answering the questions.Do you > work for an MD?Are you a licensed massage therapist?I don't give legal > advice so stop trying to inveigle me. I was born at night....just not > last night. In the end you and others if really interested enough > might get your answer by hiring a Constitutional lawyer otherwise all > the " chewing of the fat ad infinitum ad nauseum " won't do any one any > good. Round and round the merry-go-round goes.RichardIn a message > dated 08/14/07 11:45:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > naturaldoc1 writes:As I stated you gave me the info but > have not provided any tangibleproof or an answer as to whether you > think our state licensingboards can regulate our usage of the term > doctor without havingone. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike > W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek > of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this > message have been removed] > > > _______________ > Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more > .then map the best route! > http://maps.live.com/default.aspx? > v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=42.358996~ > -71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt= > -1000 & scene=950607 & encType=1 & FORM=MGAC01 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Richard, So are you for false advertising a doctorate title or not? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:12:59 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles MikeIt appears that you and many others do not have a grasp on your rights as a citizen of the United States of America under the US Constitution. That's understandable as most people do not understand nor have a grasp on those rights even though they have lived in this country their whole lives. There appears to be only one way for it to get through and that is for anyone interested.....to take those cases to a Constitutional lawyer. After laying out some hard dollars on the table and then hearing it from a lawyer maybe it will sink in.If you insist on running with the merry-go-round.....have fun.RichardIn a message dated 08/15/07 12:05:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,You gave me the info but it does not support your assumptions as one casewas about academic PhD graduates could not use " Dr " in front of their name. Thiswas the FL statute listed with the first case. Your second case or the one that Bill Mosca sent me referred to an attorney who was also a cpa and advertisedfinancial planning even though they were not actively involved with such. Ido not see how this is in any way connected with our state licensing boardsregulation of our title or specifically usage of " doctor " . Maybe there was mentionof something in your case notes but the summary I read was clearly missing thisinfo. So why do you not believe that state acu boards have the right to determineour designation?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Hey guys, Can we end this silly game of one-upmanship, please? Sheesh! I will erase all further posts with this subject line. acudoc11 wrote: Mike You continue to skirt the issue(s) and ignore what is right before your eyes and you continue to side step answering the questions. Do you work for an MD? Are you a licensed massage therapist? I don't give legal advice so stop trying to inveigle me. I was born at night....just not last night. In the end you and others if really interested enough might get your answer by hiring a Constitutional lawyer otherwise all the " chewing of the fat ad infinitum ad nauseum " won't do any one any good. Round and round the merry-go-round goes. Richard In a message dated 08/14/07 11:45:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: As I stated you gave me the info but have not provided any tangible proof or an answer as to whether you think our state licensing boards can regulate our usage of the term doctor without having one. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Andrea This will be my last post on this subject as there are those who apparently believe that it is better to live in a communist country and if that is silly subject matter excuse the intrusion into this space. For the last time......the issue is whether police powers of the several states overpowers US citizens Constitutional rights..... specifically regarding " free speech " and the answer is a resounding NO. The only thing nebulous or silly is when people choose to theoretically debate irrelevant points. Those can be discussed until the cows fly over the moon and nothing will ever be resolved. Obviously there are some in the AP/OM profession who are tied financially to non-regionally accredited acupuncture schools; who work for MDs for their living; and/or who hold massage therapy licenses and get paid better than as an acupuncturist. Richard In a message dated 08/15/07 1:01:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Andrea, This issue was about clarity and finding out the truth which simply comes down to following our respective licensing boards. I thought that maybe there was something that changed this but all the nebulous reponses produced no legit answers, which then leads back to following what I no know about my legal authority in my state. Sorry for any confusion. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Richard, So are you for false advertising a doctorate title or not? Mike W. Bowser, L AcThe issue was about usage of the title doctor and you have once again neglected to answer this simply question. Do you think that state licensing boards can legally determine practitioner usage of the term doctor, yes or no?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 David, Yes it is and my email was chosen to represent both of my licensed professions as I am working on my doctorate in chiropractic as we speak. I will most likely pursue a DAOM as well. Sorry to have seen such an interesting topic regarding doctor turned into a conservative crusade. There seemed to be a lack of willingness on my colleagues part to contribute legitimate information that was relevant to our topic. Maybe we can revisit it in the future w/o the hype. There is a lot that we can improve upon if we keep studying. Keep learning and BTW where are you attending school? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : davelcorp: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:49:16 -0700Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles Mike and Richard,Am I the only one who has noticed the irony that both of you use the term " doc " in your email addresses?-David Lesseps, studentOn Aug 14, 2007, at 9:17 PM, mike Bowser wrote:> Richard,>> The issue was about usage of the title doctor and you have once again > neglected> to answer this simply question. Do you think that state licensing > boards can> legally determine practitioner usage of the term doctor, yes or > no?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>>> To: Chinese Medicine: > acudoc11: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:52:52 -0400Re: TCM > - Re: TCM Doctoral Titles>>>>> MikeYou continue to skirt the issue(s) and ignore what is right before > your eyes and you continue to side step answering the questions.Do you > work for an MD?Are you a licensed massage therapist?I don't give legal > advice so stop trying to inveigle me. I was born at night....just not > last night. In the end you and others if really interested enough > might get your answer by hiring a Constitutional lawyer otherwise all > the " chewing of the fat ad infinitum ad nauseum " won't do any one any > good. Round and round the merry-go-round goes.RichardIn a message > dated 08/14/07 11:45:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > naturaldoc1 writes:As I stated you gave me the info but > have not provided any tangibleproof or an answer as to whether you > think our state licensingboards can regulate our usage of the term > doctor without havingone. A simple yes or no will suffice. ThanksMike > W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek > of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this > message have been removed]>>> ________> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more> .then map the best route!> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx? > v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=42.358996~ > -71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt= > -1000 & scene=950607 & encType=1 & FORM=MGAC01>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>> Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese > medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia>> To change your email delivery settings, click, > and > adjust accordingly.>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author.>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary.> Groups Links>>>> _______________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=\ 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp\ e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 So the truth surfaces at last. Unfortunately for the unsuspecting....... that there exists a pseudo intellectual cadre of competing healthcare practitioners with a hidden agenda to dissolution of any remaining civil liberties (especially of AP/OM practitioners) just to advance a take-over. A study of American civil liberties should be high on the agenda of any study. Richard A. Freiberg Doctor of Oriental Medicine Acupuncture Physician In a message dated 8/15/2007 9:46:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: David, Yes it is and my email was chosen to represent both of my licensed professions as I am working on my doctorate in chiropractic as we speak. I will most likely pursue a DAOM as well. Sorry to have seen such an interesting topic regarding doctor turned into a conservative crusade. There seemed to be a lack of willingness on my colleagues part to contribute legitimate information that was relevant to our topic. Maybe we can revisit it in the future w/o the hype. There is a lot that we can improve upon if we keep studying. Keep learning and BTW where are you attending school? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 Richard, First,It would be nice if you would post a legit dialogue and second, article X of the US Constitution provides states with the power to regulate everything else not specified as federal govt functions and it can do so thru licensing boards. The general ambiguities of your posts leave a lot of guessing as to what you are trying to say. Maybe you could be a little bit more specific. Second, I have a huge interest in seeing the growth and development of OM in this country succeed and continue to go out of my way to downplay the 100 hr cert that some of my fellow classmates think is legit. I have taught at two TCM schools and presented several seminars on aspects of acupuncture practice. I have also been asked to present at other TCM schools as well. This is because I love . Your assumptions about me have been and continue to be wrong. Thirdly, I am working on a doctorate and would like to know if you feel that honesty of educational degree is important in advertising to patients. As your state allows for usage of DOM, and you seem to advertise this, why do you feel the need to do so if you do not have a doctorate degree? As a matter of integrity, shouldn't usage of doctor be limited to those with an actual doctorate degree? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:22:31 -0400Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles So the truth surfaces at last.Unfortunately for the unsuspecting....... that there exists a pseudo intellectual cadre of competing healthcare practitioners with a hidden agenda to dissolution of any remaining civil liberties (especially of AP/OM practitioners) just to advance a take-over.A study of American civil liberties should be high on the agenda of any study. Richard A. FreibergDoctor of Oriental MedicineAcupuncture PhysicianIn a message dated 8/15/2007 9:46:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:David,Yes it is and my email was chosen to represent both of my licensed professions as I am working on my doctorate in chiropractic as we speak. I will most likely pursue a DAOM as well. Sorry to have seen such an interesting topic regarding doctor turned into a conservative crusade. There seemed to be a lack of willingness on my colleagues part to contribute legitimate information that was relevant to our topic. Maybe we can revisit it in the future w/o the hype. There is a lot that we can improve upon if we keep studying. Keep learning and BTW where are you attending school?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=\ 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp\ e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2007 Report Share Posted August 16, 2007 It may be time for us to bring this discussion to a conclusion. For the sake of fostering constructive discussion, I would like the members of this group to avoid bringing politics or religion into any discussions. It immediately creates sides in a discussion, which may not have existed prior to their entry. Thanks, Mark (List Owner) On 8/16/07, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > Bill, > > Sorry but I shared my definition as asked by David. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > : plantmed: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:40:46 +0000Re: Re: TCM Doctoral Titles > > > > > It might be a good idea to avoid political theory in these discussions. It is just as divisive as talking about religion, and it is just as unlikely that anybody will change their opinion. It can also create a lot of animosity.- BillChinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:>> David,> > Basically, no changes and govt hands off = conservative while willingness> to seek improvements and regulate our profession = progressive. > > Need I say more? We need more ideas and ways to be creative not> further dig a hole in the ground. This is why CA has one of the better> laws in the US and many other states struggle to see any professional> recognition. > > I like your Dalai Lama quote.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.