Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Mike There is a bigger problem than what you point to regarding " titles " and the core meaning of what we fought for in Florida. A dear friend has often said that you can't know where you are going unless you know where you came from! So let's go back to the sort-of beginning of organized acupuncture in the US, which the majority of practitioners do not know and others wish to gloss over and not be pointed to. In the beginning of so-called organized acupuncture in the US we find a one man who single-handedly formed AAAOM, NCCAOM, ACAOM, CCAOM and an acupuncture school. This person had some apparent strong pull with the allopathic community. Then as now this person and those orgs apparently believe that an acupuncturist is nothing more than a technician. Rumor has it that a deal was struck between this individual and mainstream allopaths to allow the technician status of acupuncture in the US but to keep it out of mainstream medicine! That wouldn;t be anything new considering what happened between the allopaths and the chiropractors not to mention the eradication of most of naturopathy in the US. Interesting that it appears that this model is almost world wide in that in many countries only MDs can practice acupuncture and in many US states initially an MD had to first write a prescription in order for the " techie " to use acupuncture needles. Over some 30 years +/- there have been various battles fought along the way to break out of this suppressive mode. Some that even caused the break up of the AAAOM now glued back together. Ask Dr. Harvey Kaltsas or Dr. Ashley Wiper. They know the details. People have come and gone in these national organizations but if one looks carefully they might find a continuous connective thread of over-control by the same dominant force. All one has to do is see the recent celebration announcements and self congratulatory meetings and conventions supporting and touting the 25 years of existence of these various orgs. Even state organizations are tied to this over-control model. As to the road towards the master diploma.......that was primarily a " two step-side-shuffle " ......a way of quieting the natives since many in the profession were tired of being just technician needle-stickers. One might ask the question WHY at that point did not the so-called leaders move the profession toward a REAL entry level doctor degree accredited within the Regional Accreditation system? The answer on one level should be obvious. The some 40 or so " night-trade-schools " would be out of business and the main stream universities would pick up ALL of the educational business. Additionally non discriminatory reimbursement would come on line along with formal recognition in the USA Medicare/Medicaid program(s). Or WHY wasn't the profession created in the beginning with the model of entry level doctor degree planned? Some of you know that I and Dr. Paul J. Reinhardt, MD, NMD, OMD have been extreme supporters of " Commercial Free Speech " under the US Constitution and therefore the " words and phrases " consisting of Doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncture Physician among others here in Florida. That was at least a nine year fight with our promise of a First Amendment US Constitutional Legal battle. This resulted in the adoption of Florida Administrative Code clearly stating that a Florida acupuncture licensee is allowed to use those words and phrases. Of course along with " commercial free speech " comes responsibility. One must be truthful in their advertising to the public and their patients. One must be clear to their patients that they are not an MD or licensed as an MD in Florida; clear that they are Licensed Acupuncturists; clear that their diplomas etc are not recognized by Florida or even the US Dept of Education. The non-PhD so-called " doctoral research " degree or even the so-called Master's Degree....none of which are accredited within the REAL regional accreditation system. I know of colleague Acupuncturists who have experienced a rude awakening when they took these so called degrees and advanced degrees to a regionally accredited university (such as Nova University) and got laughed out the front door being told that those degrees were totally useless as transfer credits towards a real degree of higher learning. By the way with that in mind.....we checked the Florida laws & rules of these so-called four year independent night-trade schools and found that they would be in serious default and under severe discipline and penalty if they failed to inform prospective students of the non-transferability of credits. In other words these schools might be able to be retroactively sued for a full refund of all tuition and expenses for the schools failure to formally notify the student before the first dollar was taken as tuition. (This is not meant as legal advice). So before we judge titles, words, phrases, board accreditations etc. let us take a hard look at what system is in place. On several e-mail groups there is talk that has come full circle once again about starting a " dream university " for the profession. These elders of the profession should be applauded and supported by the profession but wait a minute.....they would be starting something NEW! Yes something new and refreshing and real. Just what is needed. Mike......let us pose to you and others a basic question! If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury.......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function? Many do not realize that there are such titles given by various methods (such as professional titles by statute) and the education model is not the only way. So for what it is worth.......I fully support ABORM and applaud them for their efforts. They appear to be educated practitioners wishing to see better education and standards for our profession. Richard Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, DAP, LAc Doctor of Oriental Medicine Acupuncture Physician Licensed Acupuncturist Kath Point well taken but lets also clean up the same issues with the NCCAOM (board cert, NOT) ACAOM, etc. We have lots of questionable things that we continue to create that are not following the so-called norms. I agree with you but this road started years ago when the profession decided to go the way of the master's, to make it possible for many of the smaller programs to continue to exist. That was and is a mistake that continues to bite us in the you know what. Just a reminder, the chiropractic certifications claim to be covered by the CCE, like the schools do to their presentations at the schools, yet there is no oversight about content etc. So the same is happening to others as well. So, then what do you think about our usage of " doctor " titles without the training as in NM, NV and FL licenses? I think that this is a bigger problem. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Mike Practitioners who were around when the history was taking place more than likely threw up their hands in frustration and moved on in their practices in part sticking their heads in the sand ( at least that's what several have told me). Unfortunate for rest of us. I have to differ with you in that the education doesn;t match up with our designation. I would think that the function of what we do DOES in fact match up. One of the major reasons I was attacked during the past seven years with legal abuse in Florida..... was that we orchestrated a move with the blessings of the then Florida Board of Acupuncture, the then FSOMA board, and a well respected sponsor in the Florida Senate and one in the Florida House (head of the healthcare committee at the time) to place into LAW the designation " DOCTOR " and all that was needed was to raise the entry level from 60 credits in basket weaving to a Bachelors degree (BA or BS) and raise the 2800 hours to 3200 hours. This was ALL that was required by the legislature for the education to match the doctor designation. In reality we are virtually there as many schools are already at the 3,000 to 3,200 hours. But heaven's forbid if they raise the entry level to a Bachelors.......there goes the quantity of new students. Crawling out from their holes the Florida night-trade-schools rose up in such a clatter that the Bill was withdrawn and then I had to weather (all on my own) legal abuse that you cannot believe. After recovering from the frontal attack.....I fired my crooked attorney and took on ALL of my own legal work. I had to sit in the law library 2-3 hours per day, 5 days per week ultimately wreaking havoc in a counter attack. In raw dollars and cents I was ripped off by my attorney for a little over $7,000 which was well worth it in the end as the other side had to spend in dollars & cents and pro bono favors over $500,000.00 and counting........ in addition to winning the battle of titles or words/phrases. I seriously doubt that my adversaries wish to engage me anymore...and if they do at least it won;t cost me any real hard dollars. What doesn;t kill you makes you stronger....as the saying goes. You are right....if we wait for schools and councils and all these national orgs it may never happen or if it does....it will be far into the future when we will be gone. When I took over as legislative chair at FSOMA in 1998 time frame.... I was asked by the then FSOMA lobbyist (did not do any work for the Florida medical docs) what my vision was. After telling them...... they said it would take twenty years. I said watch it happen in 2 years and it did .....against all odds. As to title or words.......if one uses the word " doctorate " it makes sense what you are saying regards matching education.....But the words Physician or Doctor does not translate to an educational degree unless one is putting it forth that way. Richard In a message dated 08/12/07 1:23:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Thanks for the history there is so much that many of us do not know about what has taken place and yet it continues to affect us. As you state, " If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury.......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function? " The problem we have here is that our education does not match up with our designation. Although I happen to like the AP one as it does not imply a doctorate degree. I also like to hear what ABORM is doing to bring up awareness and encourage education. If we wait for schools and councils to do this, it will happen after I am long gone. BTW, one last item. What happen in FL with the DC abbreviated acu issue?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Mike You continue to stay stuck on this issue that somehow the word doctor equates to a doctorate degree of some sort. The so-called masters degrees (not really) or even the non-PhD doctoral research degree....neither of which appear to be what we should be focusing on. As to " doctorate " one such dictionary definition is: noun = " one of the highest earned academic degrees conferred by a university " . What our field has IS NOT and on the path it is traveling apparently WILL NEVER fit this definition. What we have is a second rate system made up of night-trade-schools who issue pieces of paper which are not recognized by mainstream regionally accredited educational system. And further the laws of some states are very clear in that those night-trade-schools had better advise perspective students that they not now and possibly never be able to transfer those credits to a real regionally accredited university of higher learning. What has been suggested for a long time is a regionally accredited education institution which offers a basic entry level " doctor " degree. That is not a " doctorate " . As minor as the difference may appear it is profound. I haven;t followed South Baylo University recently but I know in the past they were trying to accomplish this great and moral task. I did notice they were put on some sort of probation recently with CCAOM? but not sure what it was for. More than likely they are being pulled or forced back into the fold. We shall see if they succumb. I do not know what state you practice in but you need to take things in proper perspective to your state laws. The numbers from a few years ago was that about 5 states out of 40 contained more than 50% of the licensees in the US and many of those such as in Florida, New Mexico, Arkansas, West Virginia were primary care providers. In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice). That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights. Richard In a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last item about doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especially in TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditation at that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensing and advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctor or an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 I for one totally agree with higher quality education and standards for our profession, but the ABORM is NOT providing that. There is a test that has no guidelines or parameters for studying and they say that if you have attended some " infertility " workshops...you will be able to pass...it will be easy. HOW does that create a standard?? - acudoc11<acudoc11 To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:21 AM Re: SUUPORT ABORM Mike There is a bigger problem than what you point to regarding " titles " and the core meaning of what we fought for in Florida. A dear friend has often said that you can't know where you are going unless you know where you came from! So let's go back to the sort-of beginning of organized acupuncture in the US, which the majority of practitioners do not know and others wish to gloss over and not be pointed to. In the beginning of so-called organized acupuncture in the US we find a one man who single-handedly formed AAAOM, NCCAOM, ACAOM, CCAOM and an acupuncture school. This person had some apparent strong pull with the allopathic community. Then as now this person and those orgs apparently believe that an acupuncturist is nothing more than a technician. Rumor has it that a deal was struck between this individual and mainstream allopaths to allow the technician status of acupuncture in the US but to keep it out of mainstream medicine! That wouldn;t be anything new considering what happened between the allopaths and the chiropractors not to mention the eradication of most of naturopathy in the US. Interesting that it appears that this model is almost world wide in that in many countries only MDs can practice acupuncture and in many US states initially an MD had to first write a prescription in order for the " techie " to use acupuncture needles. Over some 30 years +/- there have been various battles fought along the way to break out of this suppressive mode Some that even caused the break up of the AAAOM now glued back together. Ask Dr. Harvey Kaltsas or Dr. Ashley Wiper. They know the details. People have come and gone in these national organizations but if one looks carefully they might find a continuous connective thread of over-control by the same dominant force. All one has to do is see the recent celebration announcements and self congratulatory meetings and conventions supporting and touting the 25 years of existence of these various orgs Even state organizations are tied to this over-control model As to the road towards the master diploma.......that was primarily a " two step-side-shuffle " ......a way of quieting the natives since many in the profession were tired of being just technician needle-stickers. One might ask the question WHY at that point did not the so-called leaders move the profession toward a REAL entry level doctor degree accredited within the Regional Accreditation system? The answer on one level should be obvious. The some 40 or so " night-trade-schools " would be out of business and the main stream universities would pick up ALL of the educational business. Additionally non discriminatory reimbursement would come on line along with formal recognition in the USA Medicare/Medicaid program(s). Or WHY wasn't the profession created in the beginning with the model of entry level doctor degree planned? Some of you know that I and Dr. Paul J. Reinhardt, MD, NMD, OMD have been extreme supporters of " Commercial Free Speech " under the US Constitution and therefore the " words and phrases " consisting of Doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncture Physician among others here in Florida. That was at least a nine year fight with our promise of a First Amendment US Constitutional Legal battle. This resulted in the adoption of Florida Administrative Code clearly stating that a Florida acupuncture licensee is allowed to use those words and phrases. Of course along with " commercial free speech " comes responsibility. One must be truthful in their advertising to the public and their patients. One must be clear to their patients that they are not an MD or licensed as an MD in Florida; clear that they are Licensed Acupuncturists; clear that their diplomas etc are not recognized by Florida or even the US Dept of Education. The non-PhD so-called " doctoral research " degree or even the so-called Master's Degree....none of which are accredited within the REAL regional accreditation system. I know of colleague Acupuncturists who have experienced a rude awakening when they took these so called degrees and advanced degrees to a regionally accredited university (such as Nova University) and got laughed out the front door being told that those degrees were totally useless as transfer credits towards a real degree of higher learning. By the way with that in mind.....we checked the Florida laws & rules of these so-called four year independent night-trade schools and found that they would be in serious default and under severe discipline and penalty if they failed to inform prospective students of the non-transferability of credits. In other words these schools might be able to be retroactively sued for a full refund of all tuition and expenses for the schools failure to formally notify the student before the first dollar was taken as tuition. (This is not meant as legal advice). So before we judge titles, words, phrases, board accreditations etc. let us take a hard look at what system is in place. On several e-mail groups there is talk that has come full circle once again about starting a " dream university " for the profession. These elders of the profession should be applauded and supported by the profession but wait a minute.....they would be starting something NEW! Yes something new and refreshing and real. Just what is needed. Mike......let us pose to you and others a basic question! If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function? Many do not realize that there are such titles given by various methods (such as professional titles by statute) and the education model is not the only way. So for what it is worth.......I fully support ABORM and applaud them for their efforts. They appear to be educated practitioners wishing to see better education and standards for our profession. Richard Richard A. Freiberg, OMD, DAP, LAc Doctor of Oriental Medicine Acupuncture Physician Licensed Acupuncturist Kath Point well taken but lets also clean up the same issues with the NCCAOM (board cert, NOT) ACAOM, etc. We have lots of questionable things that we continue to create that are not following the so-called norms. I agree with you but this road started years ago when the profession decided to go the way of the master's, to make it possible for many of the smaller programs to continue to exist. That was and is a mistake that continues to bite us in the you know what. Just a reminder, the chiropractic certifications claim to be covered by the CCE, like the schools do to their presentations at the schools, yet there is no oversight about content etc. So the same is happening to others as well. So, then what do you think about our usage of " doctor " titles without the training as in NM, NV and FL licenses? I think that this is a bigger problem. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour<http://discoveraol.com/memed/aolcom30\ tour> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Richard, Thanks for the history there is so much that many of us do not know about what has taken place and yet it continues to affect us. As you state, " If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury.......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function? " The problem we have here is that our education does not match up with our designation. Although I happen to like the AP one as it does not imply a doctorate degree. I also like to hear what ABORM is doing to bring up awareness and encourage education. If we wait for schools and councils to do this, it will happen after I am long gone. BTW, one last item. What happen in FL with the DC abbreviated acu issue?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:21:17 -0400Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikeThere is a bigger problem than what you point to regarding " titles " and the core meaning of what we fought for in Florida.A dear friend has often said that you can't know where you are going unless you know where you came from!So let's go back to the sort-of beginning of organized acupuncture in the US, which the majority of practitioners do not know and others wish to gloss over and not be pointed to.In the beginning of so-called organized acupuncture in the US we find a one man who single-handedly formed AAAOM, NCCAOM, ACAOM, CCAOM and an acupuncture school. This person had some apparent strong pull with the allopathic community. Then as now this person and those orgs apparently believe that an acupuncturist is nothing more than a technician. Rumor has it that a deal was struck between this individual and mainstream allopaths to allow the technician status of acupuncture in the US but to keep it out of mainstream medicine! That wouldn;t be anything new considering what happened between the allopaths and the chiropractors not to mention the eradication of most of naturopathy in the US.Interesting that it appears that this model is almost world wide in that in many countries only MDs can practice acupuncture and in many US states initially an MD had to first write a prescription in order for the " techie " to use acupuncture needles.Over some 30 years +/- there have been various battles fought along the way to break out of this suppressive mode. Some that even caused the break up of the AAAOM now glued back together. Ask Dr. Harvey Kaltsas or Dr. Ashley Wiper. They know the details.People have come and gone in these national organizations but if one looks carefully they might find a continuous connective thread of over-control by the same dominant force. All one has to do is see the recent celebration announcements and self congratulatory meetings and conventions supporting and touting the 25 years of existence of these various orgs. Even state organizations are tied to this over-control model.As to the road towards the master diploma.......that was primarily a " two step-side-shuffle " ......a way of quieting the natives since many in the profession were tired of being just technician needle-stickers. One might ask the question WHY at that point did not the so-called leaders move the profession toward a REAL entry level doctor degree accredited within the Regional Accreditation system? The answer on one level should be obvious. The some 40 or so " night-trade-schools " would be out of business and the main stream universities would pick up ALL of the educational business. Additionally non discriminatory reimbursement would come on line along with formal recognition in the USA Medicare/Medicaid program(s).Or WHY wasn't the profession created in the beginning with the model of entry level doctor degree planned?Some of you know that I and Dr. Paul J. Reinhardt, MD, NMD, OMD have been extreme supporters of " Commercial Free Speech " under the US Constitution and therefore the " words and phrases " consisting of Doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncture Physician among others here in Florida. That was at least a nine year fight with our promise of a First Amendment US Constitutional Legal battle. This resulted in the adoption of Florida Administrative Code clearly stating that a Florida acupuncture licensee is allowed to use those words and phrases.Of course along with " commercial free speech " comes responsibility. One must be truthful in their advertising to the public and their patients. One must be clear to their patients that they are not an MD or licensed as an MD in Florida; clear that they are Licensed Acupuncturists; clear that their diplomas etc are not recognized by Florida or even the US Dept of Education.The non-PhD so-called " doctoral research " degree or even the so-called Master's Degree....none of which are accredited within the REAL regional accreditation system. I know of colleague Acupuncturists who have experienced a rude awakening when they took these so called degrees and advanced degrees to a regionally accredited university (such as Nova University) and got laughed out the front door being told that those degrees were totally useless as transfer credits towards a real degree of higher learning.By the way with that in mind.....we checked the Florida laws & rules of these so-called four year independent night-trade schools and found that they would be in serious default and under severe discipline and penalty if they failed to inform prospective students of the non-transferability of credits. In other words these schools might be able to be retroactively sued for a full refund of all tuition and expenses for the schools failure to formally notify the student before the first dollar was taken as tuition. (This is not meant as legal advice).So before we judge titles, words, phrases, board accreditations etc. let us take a hard look at what system is in place. On several e-mail groups there is talk that has come full circle once again about starting a " dream university " for the profession. These elders of the profession should be applauded and supported by the profession but wait a minute.....they would be starting something NEW! Yes something new and refreshing and real. Just what is needed.Mike......let us pose to you and others a basic question! If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury.......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function?Many do not realize that there are such titles given by various methods (such as professional titles by statute) and the education model is not the only way. So for what it is worth.......I fully support ABORM and applaud them for their efforts. They appear to be educated practitioners wishing to see better education and standards for our profession.RichardRichard A. Freiberg, OMD, DAP, LAcDoctor of Oriental MedicineAcupuncture PhysicianLicensed AcupuncturistKathPoint well taken but lets also clean up the same issues with the NCCAOM (board cert, NOT)ACAOM, etc. We have lots of questionable things that we continue to create that arenot following the so-called norms. I agree with you but this road started years ago whenthe profession decided to go the way of the master's, to make it possible for many of the smaller programs to continue to exist. That was and is a mistake that continues to biteus in the you know what. Just a reminder, the chiropractic certifications claim to becovered by the CCE, like the schools do to their presentations at the schools, yet thereis no oversight about content etc. So the same is happening to others as well. So, then what do you think about our usage of " doctor " titles without the training as inNM, NV and FL licenses? I think that this is a bigger problem. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ See what you’re getting into…before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Richard, I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last item about doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especially in TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditation at that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensing and advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctor or an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:49:34 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikePractitioners who were around when the history was taking place more than likely threw up their hands in frustration and moved on in their practices in part sticking their heads in the sand ( at least that's what several have told me). Unfortunate for rest of us.I have to differ with you in that the education doesn;t match up with our designation. I would think that the function of what we do DOES in fact match up.One of the major reasons I was attacked during the past seven years with legal abuse in Florida..... was that we orchestrated a move with the blessings of the then Florida Board of Acupuncture, the then FSOMA board, and a well respected sponsor in the Florida Senate and one in the Florida House (head of the healthcare committee at the time) to place into LAW the designation " DOCTOR " and all that was needed was to raise the entry level from 60 credits in basket weaving to a Bachelors degree (BA or BS) and raise the 2800 hours to 3200 hours. This was ALL that was required by the legislature for the education to match the doctor designation. In reality we are virtually there as many schools are already at the 3,000 to 3,200 hours. But heaven's forbid if they raise the entry level to a Bachelors.......there goes the quantity of new students.Crawling out from their holes the Florida night-trade-schools rose up in such a clatter that the Bill was withdrawn and then I had to weather (all on my own) legal abuse that you cannot believe. After recovering from the frontal attack.....I fired my crooked attorney and took on ALL of my own legal work. I had to sit in the law library 2-3 hours per day, 5 days per week ultimately wreaking havoc in a counter attack. In raw dollars and cents I was ripped off by my attorney for a little over $7,000 which was well worth it in the end as the other side had to spend in dollars & cents and pro bono favors over $500,000.00 and counting........ in addition to winning the battle of titles or words/phrases. I seriously doubt that my adversaries wish to engage me anymore...and if they do at least it won;t cost me any real hard dollars. What doesn;t kill you makes you stronger....as the saying goes.You are right....if we wait for schools and councils and all these national orgs it may never happen or if it does....it will be far into the future when we will be gone.When I took over as legislative chair at FSOMA in 1998 time frame.... I was asked by the then FSOMA lobbyist (did not do any work for the Florida medical docs) what my vision was. After telling them...... they said it would take twenty years. I said watch it happen in 2 years and it did .....against all odds. As to title or words.......if one uses the word " doctorate " it makes sense what you are saying regards matching education.....But the words Physician or Doctor does not translate to an educational degree unless one is putting it forth that way.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 1:23:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,Thanks for the history there is so much that many of us do not know about what has taken place and yet it continues to affect us. As you state, " If you were in Florida and by LAW you were a Primary Care Provider AND by LAW you diagnosed and treated illness and injury.......what are you if not a doctor or physician? Furthermore why should you not be allowed to use those words if they are true in function? " The problem we have here is that our education does not match up with our designation. Although I happen tolike the AP one as it does not imply a doctorate degree. I also like to hear what ABORM is doing to bring up awareness and encourage education. If we wait for schoolsand councils to do this, it will happen after I am long gone. BTW, one last item. What happen in FL with the DC abbreviated acu issue?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2007 Report Share Posted August 12, 2007 Richard, The usage of the term doctor, does imply to most people, that one has a doctorate. I can assure you that an MD, DC, DO or ND all use this wording in such a manner. To imply otherwise seems to once again be using things out of context with the norm. Although you are correct about a general term of doctor as referring to one who treats a patient, in today's world that is connected with a medical professional, of which we are supposed to be. Richard states, " And further the laws of some states are very clear in that those night-trade- schools had better advise perspective students that they not now and possibly never be able to transfer those credits to a real regionally accredited university of higher learning. " Which states are you implying this comes from as I have never heard of such. BTW, there have now been several schools which are regionally accredited due to their connections within a larger multi-disciplinary setting (Bastyr, SCUHS, NWHSU). Richard also states, " What has been suggested for a long time is a regionally accredited education institution which offers a basic entry level " doctor " degree. That is not a " doctorate " . " This makes no sense and this is the first that I have heard of such. In today's world a doctor without a doctorate degree is looking for trouble. A doctor does imply that you have a doctorate (PhD or clinical) in a field. While each state does currently regulate its own licensure, it does not allow for unrestricted usage (freedom of speech) which amounts to false advertising and is unethical. I started practice in CA and graduated from one of the more well known programs out there. Doctor is only allowed for us if one has graduated from a CA recognized program of graduate study that leads to a degree in oriental medicine or biological sciences. CA is one of the few states that does recognize an LAc as primarycare and has about one-third of the licensed profession. It seems that South Baylo was or possibly is still on probation. I know that there admissions rep left in quite a hurry and related that this issue was about their unaccredited doctorate. As for their DOM, they are still offering it even though the NOMAA accreditation org is not legit. Richard, function of a healthcare profession is one thing but what you call yourself is another and this is subject to state laws. Most states do not allow those of us with Master's degrees, to misrepresent ourselves to the public as " doctor " w/o incurring trouble from the licensing board. Some have skirted this by getting licensed in another state that has doctor in its designation like NM, NV, RI or even FL. Lastly, did you lose the legal challenge with the chiro over acupuncture usage?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:16:19 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikeYou continue to stay stuck on this issue that somehow the word doctor equates to a doctorate degree of some sort.The so-called masters degrees (not really) or even the non-PhD doctoral research degree....neither of which appear to be what we should be focusing on.As to " doctorate " one such dictionary definition is: noun = " one of the highest earned academic degrees conferred by a university " .What our field has IS NOT and on the path it is traveling apparently WILL NEVER fit this definition. What we have is a second rate system made up of night-trade-schools who issue pieces of paper which are not recognized by mainstream regionally accredited educational system. And further the laws of some states are very clear in that those night-trade-schools had better advise perspective students that they not now and possibly never be able to transfer those credits to a real regionally accredited university of higher learning.What has been suggested for a long time is a regionally accredited education institution which offers a basic entry level " doctor " degree. That is not a " doctorate " . As minor as the difference may appear it is profound.I haven;t followed South Baylo University recently but I know in the past they were trying to accomplish this great and moral task. I did notice they were put on some sort of probation recently with CCAOM? but not sure what it was for. More than likely they are being pulled or forced back into the fold. We shall see if they succumb.I do not know what state you practice in but you need to take things in proper perspective to your state laws. The numbers from a few years ago was that about 5 states out of 40 contained more than 50% of the licensees in the US and many of those such as in Florida, New Mexico, Arkansas, West Virginia were primary care providers. In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice).That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last itemabout doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especiallyin TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditationat that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensingand advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctoror an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ See what you’re getting into…before you go there http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Mike Just because one has never heard of something does not mean it is not true or valid. Anyone interested might check into their own state laws and administrative code rules and find out regarding what schools are required by law to tell perspective students especially if those credits are not transferable. I can only speak for what is on the law books in Florida. As to " commercial free speech " under the First Amendment of the US Constitution, your statement is incorrect. Spend some time in any law library reading case law and annotated statutes and then spend much more time being your own attorney pro se and then come back and discuss. This is stated as I neither have the desire nor the time to teach anyone else about law (Federal or state). Contact an attorney and ask them for legal advice. Lastly, there was no legal battle with DCs using acupuncture in Florida. Florida DCs have statutorily been allowed with 100 hours and their own test to use acupuncture since 1986. Where did you get the idea of a legal battle? If that was from some sort of propaganda gossip article a year or so ago.... in one of the rag newspapers.....well you just have to check with them and their sources. Thank you for the exchange of ideas and point of view....for me this thread is now ended. Richard In a message dated 08/12/07 3:59:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, The usage of the term doctor, does imply to most people, that one has a doctorate. I can assure you that an MD, DC, DO or ND all use this wording in such a manner. To imply otherwise seems to once again be using things out of context with the norm. Although you are correct about a general term of doctor as referring to one who treats a patient, in today's world that is connected with a medical professional, of which we are supposed to be. Richard states, " And further the laws of some states are very clear in that those night-trade- schools had better advise perspective students that they not now and possibly never be able to transfer those credits to a real regionally accredited university of higher learning. " Which states are you implying this comes from as I have never heard of such. BTW, there have now been several schools which are regionally accredited due to their connections within a larger multi-disciplinary setting (Bastyr, SCUHS, NWHSU). Richard also states, " What has been suggested for a long time is a regionally accredited education institution which offers a basic entry level " doctor " degree. That is not a " doctorate " . " This makes no sense and this is the first that I have heard of such. In today's world a doctor without a doctorate degree is looking for trouble. A doctor does imply that you have a doctorate (PhD or clinical) in a field. While each state does currently regulate its own licensure, it does not allow for unrestricted usage (freedom of speech) which amounts to false advertising and is unethical. I started practice in CA and graduated from one of the more well known programs out there. Doctor is only allowed for us if one has graduated from a CA recognized program of graduate study that leads to a degree in oriental medicine or biological sciences. CA is one of the few states that does recognize an LAc as primarycare and has about one-third of the licensed profession. It seems that South Baylo was or possibly is still on probation. I know that there admissions rep left in quite a hurry and related that this issue was about their unaccredited doctorate. As for their DOM, they are still offering it even though the NOMAA accreditation org is not legit. Richard, function of a healthcare profession is one thing but what you call yourself is another and this is subject to state laws. Most states do not allow those of us with Master's degrees, to misrepresent ourselves to the public as " doctor " w/o incurring trouble from the licensing board. Some have skirted this by getting licensed in another state that has doctor in its designation like NM, NV, RI or even FL. Lastly, did you lose the legal challenge with the chiro over acupuncture usage?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Richard, Thanks again for your opinions. I do encourage each of us to check with our own state laws as to what is legit usage of a designation and not rely upon what one might think about freedom of speech. In the end, it is the state who will decide what you can do. It was reported on several posts on a FL acu assoc website that there was going to be a legal challenge as to education and a two tiered system of acu training, which does not follow what a board is supposed to regulating. Just wondered what happened with that. Anyone else care to share any info on FL acupuncture education would be appreciated. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:27:15 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikeJust because one has never heard of something does not mean it is not true or valid. Anyone interested might check into their own state laws and administrative code rules and find out regarding what schools are required by law to tell perspective students especially if those credits are not transferable. I can only speak for what is on the law books in Florida. As to " commercial free speech " under the First Amendment of the US Constitution, your statement is incorrect. Spend some time in any law library reading case law and annotated statutes and then spend much more time being your own attorney pro se and then come back and discuss. This is stated as I neither have the desire nor the time to teach anyone else about law (Federal or state). Contact an attorney and ask them for legal advice.Lastly, there was no legal battle with DCs using acupuncture in Florida. Florida DCs have statutorily been allowed with 100 hours and their own test to use acupuncture since 1986. Where did you get the idea of a legal battle? If that was from some sort of propaganda gossip article a year or so ago.... in one of the rag newspapers.....well you just have to check with them and their sources.Thank you for the exchange of ideas and point of view....for me this thread is now ended.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 3:59:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,The usage of the term doctor, does imply to most people, that one has a doctorate. I can assure you that an MD, DC, DO or ND all use this wording in such a manner. To imply otherwiseseems to once again be using things out of context with the norm. Although you are correct about a general term of doctor as referring to one who treats a patient, in today's world thatis connected with a medical professional, of which we are supposed to be. Richard states, " And further the laws of some states are very clear in that those night-trade-schools had better advise perspective students that they not now and possibly never be able to transfer those credits to a real regionally accredited university of higher learning. " Which states are you implying this comes from as I have never heard of such. BTW,there have now been several schools which are regionally accredited due to theirconnections within a larger multi-disciplinary setting (Bastyr, SCUHS, NWHSU). Richard also states, " What has been suggested for a long time is a regionally accredited education institution which offers a basic entry level " doctor " degree. That is not a " doctorate " . " This makes no sense and this is the first that I have heard of such. In today's worlda doctor without a doctorate degree is looking for trouble. A doctor does imply that you have a doctorate (PhD or clinical) in a field. While each state does currently regulateits own licensure, it does not allow for unrestricted usage (freedom of speech) which amountsto false advertising and is unethical. I started practice in CA and graduated from one of the more well known programs out there. Doctor is only allowed for us if one has graduated from a CA recognized program of graduate study that leads to a degree in oriental medicine or biological sciences. CA is one of the few states that does recognize an LAc as primarycare and has about one-third of the licensed profession. It seems that South Baylo was or possibly is still on probation. I know that there admissionsrep left in quite a hurry and related that this issue was about their unaccredited doctorate. As for their DOM, they are still offering it even though the NOMAA accreditation org is not legit. Richard, function of a healthcare profession is one thing but what you call yourself is another andthis is subject to state laws. Most states do not allow those of us with Master's degrees, to misrepresent ourselves to the public as " doctor " w/o incurring trouble from the licensing board. Some have skirted this by getting licensed in another state that has doctor in its designationlike NM, NV, RI or even FL. Lastly, did you lose the legal challenge with the chiro over acupuncture usage?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Andrea I beg to differ with you and Mike having addressed the issue of " commercial free speech " . The federal courts and case law which TRUMPS state law are very clear in constitutional case on the issue. Just because a current state law unconstitutionally prohibits free speech or commercial free speech it does not mean than it can't be STRUICK DOWN in Federal Court as happened in Florida in 1996. Florida still wishes to cover this up but the cat's out of the proverbial bag. So....please do your own legal research instead of putting forth just an opinion based upon a non-legal observation. LOOK at the case law!!!!! Richard In a message dated 8/13/2007 12:06:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Richard and all, In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " <WBR>; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. T , L.Ac. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Mike This is a good example of what was STRUCK-DOWN in Florida by a Federal Court in 1996. Just so happens the person wasn't an acupuncturist but the essence was identical. DO the legal research and find the Federal case and then see with your own eyes what the truth is. Richard In a message dated 8/13/2007 1:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Andrea, Actually we can use the doctor title in CA. Here is the statute from the CAB website. I am not sure where you are getting the idea of a physician. Can you quote me your reference? 1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " . It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 > The usage of the term doctor, does imply to most people, that one has a doctorate. I would like to point out I recall a sitcom as a kid where a " Doctor " was being yelled at for not knowing CPR as he explained he was a PhD. Without a study to back your statement that may be a better proof what people generally think. The term Doctor has a dual function today. As an aside I didn't even realize an MD degree was considered to be a doctorate until this discussion. I venture many are in the same boat as I. David Botton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 David, Most other healthcare professionals who are doctor have received a doctorate degree from a professional college as well as have a state licensure law that mandates that they use this title, usually in all forms of advertising, billing, etc. Our profession has done things in an odd from the get-go. Similarly, we LAc's or whatever our title happens to be in a particular state must also use a title. We cannot simply use the general term " doctor " and hide under freedom of speech as that would be asking for trouble. I do remember several cases where licensees in CA did lose their license for unprofessional conduct, ie false advertising, over the title doctor. Many had taken some correspondence course from out of state and got some PhD from a diploma mill. This has changed things as there is now legislation to prevent this and when one does get a doctorate they must also specify what field it is in. The two fields that I remember specified were TCM/OM and biological sciences. Just an FYI, while patients might refer to us as a doctor, the law usually refers to us in a different way and that is what determines the way we advertise. If you want to use doctor you need to find out first if your state would allow usage of this term and second what you would need to attend in order to qualify for it. Some states might say you need an MD degree to use doctor then it is a protected legal entity much like physician. Some within our profession have chosen to get additionally licensed in a state that uses doctor or physician in its title, taken bogus diploma mill programs, used MD (China) to attempt to gain an unfair advantage. All of these are misleading. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : david: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:22:00 +0000Re: SUUPORT ABORM > The usage of the term doctor, does imply to most people, that one has a doctorate.I would like to point out I recall a sitcom as a kid where a " Doctor " was being yelled at for not knowing CPR as he explained he was a PhD.Without a study to back your statement that may be a better proof what people generally think. The term Doctor has a dual function today. As an aside I didn't even realize an MD degree was considered to be a doctorate until this discussion. I venture many are in the same boat as I.David Botton _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Richard and all, In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " ; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. This is separate from whether or we are not considered " primary care providers " . I wish it was that simple! In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice). That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights. Richard In a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last item about doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especially in TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditation at that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensing and advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctor or an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Andrea, Actually we can use the doctor title in CA. Here is the statute from the CAB website. I am not sure where you are getting the idea of a physician. Can you quote me your reference? 1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " . It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : : Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:04:30 -0700Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM Richard and all,In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " ; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. This is separate from whether or we are not considered " primary care providers " . I wish it was that simple!Andrea Beth Damsky, L.Ac.In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice).That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last itemabout doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especiallyin TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditationat that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensingand advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctoror an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. LinksChoose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Mike Resist in trying to inveigle me into any such scenario. I have had enough of those ridiculous suggestions from Florida defrocked lawyers trying to regain their bar tickets. Hire and pay an attorney some big bucks and get your own legal advice. Check the federal case law which is not hearsay! Obviously you are avoiding these truths. Richard n a message dated 08/13/07 6:06:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, What are you talking about? If you want a dialogue, please provide examples and not hearsay. Are you still trying to tell me that I should ignore what a state board of acupuncture states I can use for a designation? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Richard, I thought you were done with this topic. It seems to me that you are inaccurately speaking about laws on the books in many states. When you join a regulated or licensed community you lose some of your rights as a regulated professional. That means that they can and do decide what is proper conduct and what you can and cannot call yourself. I find this odd that you are implying that we simply ignore our own state statutes. States regulate professional boards, not the federal govt. If there was no order then chaos would be rampant. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:24:29 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM AndreaI beg to differ with you and Mike having addressed the issue of " commercial free speech " .The federal courts and case law which TRUMPS state law are very clear in constitutional case on the issue.Just because a current state law unconstitutionally prohibits free speech or commercial free speech it does not mean than it can't be STRUICK DOWN in Federal Court as happened in Florida in 1996. Florida still wishes to cover this up but the cat's out of the proverbial bag.So....please do your own legal research instead of putting forth just an opinion based upon a non-legal observation. LOOK at the case law!!!!!RichardIn a message dated 8/13/2007 12:06:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes:Richard and all,In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " <WBR>; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. T************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Messenger Café — open for fun 24/7. Hot games, cool activities served daily. Visit now. http://cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_AugWLtagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Richard, What are you talking about? If you want a dialogue, please provide examples and not hearsay. Are you still trying to tell me that I should ignore what a state board of acupuncture states I can use for a designation? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:27:59 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikeThis is a good example of what was STRUCK-DOWN in Florida by a Federal Court in 1996. Just so happens the person wasn't an acupuncturist but the essence was identical. DO the legal research and find the Federal case and then see with your own eyes what the truth is. RichardIn a message dated 8/13/2007 1:00:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Andrea, Actually we can use the doctor title in CA. Here is the statute from the CAB website. I am not sure where you are getting the idea of a physician. Can you quote me your reference?1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " .It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Richard, I know that you worked with a FL acu assoc and I also know that you had a tough time with them. I am not sure why you are so hung up with the concept of free speech and that it does not apply to our board designation or regulation of our profession. You have the right to think and say things, yes you are correct but when it comes to acupuncture you do not have the right to call yourself anything nor do you have the right to do what you please and create your own scope of practice. Any attorney will tell you that. I would certainly take a look at some supposed case if you ever plan to post it. It might be interesting to read. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : acudoc11: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:53:42 -0400Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM MikeResist in trying to inveigle me into any such scenario. I have had enough of those ridiculous suggestions from Florida defrocked lawyers trying to regain their bar tickets.Hire and pay an attorney some big bucks and get your own legal advice.Check the federal case law which is not hearsay! Obviously you are avoiding these truths.Richardn a message dated 08/13/07 6:06:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,What are you talking about? If you want a dialogue, please provide examples and not hearsay. Are you still trying to tell me that I should ignore what a state board of acupuncture statesI can use for a designation? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=\ 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp\ e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Hi Mike, What you wrote about the term " doctor " confirms what I wrote below - it may be used only if one has a doctorate degree. I haven't been in practice in California since 2004, so I'm not current on statutes there regarding the use of the term " physician " , but if I remember correctly, I heard this in my practice management classes - the ones I took as a student and the ones I paid for after graduation. mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: Andrea, Actually we can use the doctor title in CA. Here is the statute from the CAB website. I am not sure where you are getting the idea of a physician. Can you quote me your reference? 1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " . It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : : Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:04:30 -0700Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM Richard and all,In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " ; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. This is separate from whether or we are not considered " primary care providers " . I wish it was that simple!Andrea Beth Damsky, L.Ac.In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice).That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last itemabout doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especiallyin TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditationat that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensingand advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctoror an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. LinksChoose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Things changed after the Little Hoover commission. I remember fondly, that Marilyn Allen used to refer to her students with the title, " Dr. " Not any more. The same happened in Acupuncture today: 'Notice how authors are now referred to as Mr. (unless they have an MD, DOAM or other degree? < wrote: Hi Mike, What you wrote about the term " doctor " confirms what I wrote below - it may be used only if one has a doctorate degree. I haven't been in practice in California since 2004, so I'm not current on statutes there regarding the use of the term " physician " , but if I remember correctly, I heard this in my practice management classes - the ones I took as a student and the ones I paid for after graduation. mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: Andrea, Actually we can use the doctor title in CA. Here is the statute from the CAB website. I am not sure where you are getting the idea of a physician. Can you quote me your reference? 1399.456. Use of the Title " Doctor " . It is unprofessional conduct for an acupuncturist to use the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " in connection with the practice of acupuncture unless he or she possesses a license or certificate which authorizes such use or possesses an earned doctorate degree from an accredited, approved or authorized educational institution as set forth under Article 4 (commencing with section 94760) of Chapter 7 of Part 59 which is in acupuncture, Oriental medicine, a biological science, or is otherwise related to the authorized practice of an acupuncturist as set forth in Sections 4927 and 4937 of the Code.The use of the title " Doctor " or the abbreviation " Dr. " by an acupuncturist as authorized above without further indicating the type of license, certificate or degree which authorizes such use, constitutes unprofessional conduct.Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : : Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:04:30 -0700Re: Re: SUUPORT ABORM Richard and all,In California, we are prohibited from calling ourselves " doctors " , but we may call ourselves " physicians " ; in Arizona we may not use either of these terms in describing ourselves. Unless, of course, we have a doctorate (Ph.D.) degree. The " free speech " issue you use is not equally applicable in every state, especially when our licensing statutes specify what we may and may not call ourselves. This is separate from whether or we are not considered " primary care providers " . I wish it was that simple!Andrea Beth Damsky, L.Ac.In a state where one is a primary healthcare provider and they have fulfilled the educational requirements of those relevant statutes (whatever they may be)......they don't need to hold a doctorate degree. Their function is a doctor and according to commercial free speech in this country (at least for now) as long as the speech is truthful and not meant to be misleading, what you are practicing is lawful in accordance with your state law.....that's ALL you need to do to call yourself DOCTOR. (Not meant as legal advice).That battle is over unless of course we lose more of our US Constitutional Rights.RichardIn a message dated 08/12/07 2:50:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes:Richard,I agree with much of what you are saying but still disagree with your last itemabout doctor and our education. Very few of us have a doctorate degree especiallyin TCM/OM. Our degree is most likely a master's and and lacking any regional accreditationat that. We also do hold ourselves out to the public as a matter of public record, licensingand advertising. Do you mean to tell me that you do not call or advertise yourself as a doctoror an Acupuncture Physician? That would seem to be opposite of your response. Continuity is the key to a lot and makes patient understanding easier as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author.Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. LinksChoose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder tool.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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