Guest guest Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Hi Graham & All, > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment which > simply consisted of massaging and then needling SP21. This is an > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to me). > > Tx was incredibly successful. While massaging/needling SP21 patient > would report that her hand felt lighter and would immediately have > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she felt significantly > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least 80% better. If > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's book. It is not > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point... > Graham Two comments: (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach for RSD. (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point... " IMO, finding the " live " point is important. Several colleagues report that point location in animals is not static. Location of some points (based on electrical (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm between animals of the same species and size. When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the hole / depression at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often hover the tip of the needle over the skin at that location but let my intuition sense (and guide the needle-tip to) the exact point near that into which I insert the needle. Two queries: (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and what points addressed this? (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid- axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip of rib 11) qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 Chinese Medicine , " " < wrote: > > Hi Graham & All, > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment which > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling SP21. This is an > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to me). > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While massaging/needling SP21 patient > > would report that her hand felt lighter and would immediately have > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she felt significantly > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least 80% better. If > > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's book. It is not > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point... > > Graham > > Two comments: > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach for RSD. > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point... " > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. Several colleagues report that point > location in animals is not static. Location of some points (based on electrical > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm between > animals of the same species and size. > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the hole / depression > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often hover the tip of the > needle over the skin at that location but let my intuition sense (and guide the > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into which I insert the needle. > > Two queries: > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and what points addressed > this? > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid- > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip of rib 11) > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? > > Best regards, > > Hi Phil- The root treatment was determined based on Japanese pulse and abdomen diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change based on her pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. Genreally, I was simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple Japanese meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example of this) I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21 as a 'local' treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost on e-mail!) Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, it is a point intended to affect the wrist directly and in that way may be considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the correct point and needle angle will result in an immediate (positive) change at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be true. In another part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also help for RSD. So I think finding the point that affects a change in the wrist is the important thing. I did try a true local treatment on the patient's first visit and found that it had an adverse affect. Hope this helps Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2007 Report Share Posted August 7, 2007 I am wondering what you would do for RSD in the left knee. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. I did needle locally with moxa and it seemed to help. The first time I just needled around the knee (ST 34, 36, 37,SP 10, 9 and 6) with no results. The next time I needled right into the painful part and the patient did have immediate relief. --- g <dghaynes131 wrote: > Chinese Medicine , > " " > < wrote: > > > > Hi Graham & All, > > > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment > consisted of a root > > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a > 'local' treatment > which > > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling > SP21. This is an > > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical > Strategies Vol.I > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to > me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While > massaging/needling SP21 patient > > > would report that her hand felt lighter and > would immediately have > > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she > felt significantly > > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at > least 80% better. If > > > you use this approach it would be best to read > Kiiko's book. It is not > > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point > location definition and > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to > find the 'live' point... > > > Graham > > > > Two comments: > > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach > for RSD. > > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on > point location > definition > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to > find the 'live' > point... " > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. > Several colleagues > report that point > > location in animals is not static. Location of > some points (based on > electrical > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can > vary by 1-2cm > between > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate > for the hole / > depression > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I > often hover the tip > of the > > needle over the skin at that location but let my > intuition sense > (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into > which I insert the needle. > > > > Two queries: > > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and > what points > addressed > > this? > > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' > below axilla, on mid- > > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway > from axilla to tip > of rib 11) > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD > affected the wrist? > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Hi Phil- > > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese > pulse and abdomen > diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change > based on her > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. > Genreally, I was > simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is > simple Japanese > meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example > of this) > > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21 > as a 'local' > treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost > on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, > it is a point > intended to affect the wrist directly and in that > way may be > considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes > that the correct > point and needle angle will result in an immediate > (positive) change > at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be > true. In another > part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also > help for RSD. So > I think finding the point that affects a change in > the wrist is the > important thing. > > I did try a true local treatment on the patient's > first visit and > found that it had an adverse affect. > > Hope this helps > > Graham > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness./webhosting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Petra- I dont have an answer for you. According to Kiiko's book, SP-21 is used for the treatment of any imbalances of the left and right sides and is especially effective for one sided complaints of the upper limbs. So it may not be so effective for the knee - but I would still maybe give it a try. Massage a tight/sore spot near SP-21. Start on the contralateral side. If the knee feels different, then insert a needle at a 10-15 degree angle towards the back. If the contralateral point does not work you could try the ipsilateral point. good luck Graham Chinese Medicine , Petra Buchanan <petrabuchanan wrote: > > I am wondering what you would do for RSD in the left > knee. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. I did needle locally > with moxa and it seemed to help. The first time I just > needled around the knee (ST 34, 36, 37,SP 10, 9 and 6) > with no results. The next time I needled right into > the painful part and the patient did have immediate > relief. > --- g <dghaynes131 wrote: > > > Chinese Medicine , > > " " > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Graham & All, > > > > > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment > > consisted of a root > > > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a > > 'local' treatment > > which > > > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling > > SP21. This is an > > > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical > > Strategies Vol.I > > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to > > me). > > > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While > > massaging/needling SP21 patient > > > > would report that her hand felt lighter and > > would immediately have > > > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she > > felt significantly > > > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at > > least 80% better. If > > > > you use this approach it would be best to read > > Kiiko's book. It is not > > > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point > > location definition and > > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to > > find the 'live' point... > > > > Graham > > > > > > Two comments: > > > > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach > > for RSD. > > > > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on > > point location > > definition > > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to > > find the 'live' > > point... " > > > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. > > Several colleagues > > report that point > > > location in animals is not static. Location of > > some points (based on > > electrical > > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can > > vary by 1-2cm > > between > > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate > > for the hole / > > depression > > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I > > often hover the tip > > of the > > > needle over the skin at that location but let my > > intuition sense > > (and guide the > > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into > > which I insert the needle. > > > > > > Two queries: > > > > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and > > what points > > addressed > > > this? > > > > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' > > below axilla, on mid- > > > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway > > from axilla to tip > > of rib 11) > > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD > > affected the wrist? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil- > > > > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese > > pulse and abdomen > > diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change > > based on her > > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. > > Genreally, I was > > simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is > > simple Japanese > > meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example > > of this) > > > > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21 > > as a 'local' > > treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost > > on e-mail!) > > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, > > it is a point > > intended to affect the wrist directly and in that > > way may be > > considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes > > that the correct > > point and needle angle will result in an immediate > > (positive) change > > at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be > > true. In another > > part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also > > help for RSD. So > > I think finding the point that affects a change in > > the wrist is the > > important thing. > > > > I did try a true local treatment on the patient's > > first visit and > > found that it had an adverse affect. > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. > http://smallbusiness./webhosting > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Thank you Graham --- g <dghaynes131 wrote: > Petra- > > I dont have an answer for you. According to Kiiko's > book, SP-21 is > used for the treatment of any imbalances of the left > and right sides > and is especially effective for one sided complaints > of the upper > limbs. So it may not be so effective for the knee - > but I would still > maybe give it a try. > > Massage a tight/sore spot near SP-21. Start on the > contralateral > side. If the knee feels different, then insert a > needle at a 10-15 > degree angle towards the back. If the contralateral > point does not > work you could try the ipsilateral point. > > good luck > Graham > > > Chinese Medicine , > Petra Buchanan > <petrabuchanan wrote: > > > > I am wondering what you would do for RSD in the > left > > knee. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. I did needle > locally > > with moxa and it seemed to help. The first time I > just > > needled around the knee (ST 34, 36, 37,SP 10, 9 > and 6) > > with no results. The next time I needled right > into > > the painful part and the patient did have > immediate > > relief. > > --- g <dghaynes131 wrote: > > > > > --- In > Chinese Medicine , > > > " " > > > <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Graham & All, > > > > > > > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment > > > consisted of a root > > > > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and > then a > > > 'local' treatment > > > which > > > > > simply consisted of massaging and then > needling > > > SP21. This is an > > > > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's > Clinical > > > Strategies Vol.I > > > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out > to > > > me). > > > > > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While > > > massaging/needling SP21 patient > > > > > would report that her hand felt lighter and > > > would immediately have > > > > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment > she > > > felt significantly > > > > > better and within about 10 treatments she > was at > > > least 80% better. If > > > > > you use this approach it would be best to > read > > > Kiiko's book. It is not > > > > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point > > > location definition and > > > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to > > > find the 'live' point... > > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > Two comments: > > > > > > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that > approach > > > for RSD. > > > > > > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 > based on > > > point location > > > definition > > > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical > to > > > find the 'live' > > > point... " > > > > > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. > > > Several colleagues > > > report that point > > > > location in animals is not static. Location of > > > some points (based on > > > electrical > > > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) > can > > > vary by 1-2cm > > > between > > > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually > palpate > > > for the hole / > > > depression > > > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then > I > > > often hover the tip > > > of the > > > > needle over the skin at that location but let > my > > > intuition sense > > > (and guide the > > > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into > > > which I insert the needle. > > > > > > > > Two queries: > > > > > > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, > and > > > what points > > > addressed > > > > this? > > > > > > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, > 6' > > > below axilla, on mid- > > > > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, > midway > > > from axilla to tip > > > of rib 11) > > > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD > > > affected the wrist? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Phil- > > > > > > The root treatment was determined based on > Japanese > > > pulse and abdomen > > > diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change > > > based on her > > > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came > in. > > > Genreally, I was > > > simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is > > > simple Japanese > > > meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good > example > > > of this) > > > > > > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to > Sp-21 > > > as a 'local' > > > treatment. (the subtleties of language that are > lost > > > on e-mail!) > > > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. > However, > > > it is a point > > > intended to affect the wrist directly and in > that > > > way may be > > > considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes > > > that the correct > > > point and needle angle will result in an > immediate > > > (positive) change > > > at the area affected by the RSD. I found this > to be > > > true. In another > > > part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may > also > > > help for RSD. So > > > I think finding the point that affects a change > in > > > the wrist is the > > > important thing. > > > > > > I did try a true local treatment on the > patient's > > > first visit and > > > found that it had an adverse affect. > > > > > > Hope this helps > === message truncated === ______________________________\ ____ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games. http://get.games./proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 As I understand Kiiko's work, points are based upon ability to affect an area of pressure/pain/stagnation. SP21 would not be considered for a lower limb RSD as the reason for its usage was related to this function and not the medical diagnosis of RSD. Hope this makes some sense. Glad to see that it helped. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : dghaynes131: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 14:32:06 +0000Re: AP in RSD - SP21? Petra-I dont have an answer for you. According to Kiiko's book, SP-21 isused for the treatment of any imbalances of the left and right sidesand is especially effective for one sided complaints of the upperlimbs. So it may not be so effective for the knee - but I would stillmaybe give it a try.Massage a tight/sore spot near SP-21. Start on the contralateralside. If the knee feels different, then insert a needle at a 10-15degree angle towards the back. If the contralateral point does notwork you could try the ipsilateral point.good luckGraham Chinese Medicine , Petra Buchanan<petrabuchanan wrote:>> I am wondering what you would do for RSD in the left> knee. Thank you, Petra Buchanan. I did needle locally> with moxa and it seemed to help. The first time I just> needled around the knee (ST 34, 36, 37,SP 10, 9 and 6)> with no results. The next time I needled right into> the painful part and the patient did have immediate> relief.> --- g <dghaynes131 wrote:> > > --- In Chinese Medicine ,> > " " > > <@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Graham & All,> > > > > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment> > consisted of a root> > > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a> > 'local' treatment> > which> > > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling> > SP21. This is an> > > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical> > Strategies Vol.I> > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to> > me). > > > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While> > massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > > would report that her hand felt lighter and> > would immediately have> > > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she> > felt significantly> > > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at> > least 80% better. If> > > > you use this approach it would be best to read> > Kiiko's book. It is not> > > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point> > location definition and> > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to> > find the 'live' point...> > > > Graham > > > > > > Two comments:> > > > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach> > for RSD.> > > > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on> > point location> > definition > > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to> > find the 'live'> > point... " > > > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important.> > Several colleagues> > report that point > > > location in animals is not static. Location of> > some points (based on> > electrical > > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can> > vary by 1-2cm> > between > > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate> > for the hole /> > depression > > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I> > often hover the tip> > of the > > > needle over the skin at that location but let my> > intuition sense> > (and guide the > > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into> > which I insert the needle.> > > > > > Two queries:> > > > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and> > what points> > addressed > > > this?> > > > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6'> > below axilla, on mid-> > > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway> > from axilla to tip> > of rib 11) > > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD> > affected the wrist? > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Hi Phil-> > > > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese> > pulse and abdomen> > diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change> > based on her> > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in.> > Genreally, I was> > simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is> > simple Japanese> > meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example> > of this)> > > > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21> > as a 'local'> > treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost> > on e-mail!) > > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However,> > it is a point> > intended to affect the wrist directly and in that> > way may be> > considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes> > that the correct> > point and needle angle will result in an immediate> > (positive) change> > at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be> > true. In another> > part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also> > help for RSD. So> > I think finding the point that affects a change in> > the wrist is the> > important thing.> > > > I did try a true local treatment on the patient's> > first visit and> > found that it had an adverse affect.> > > > Hope this helps> > > > Graham> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________> Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business givesyou all the tools to get online.> http://smallbusiness./webhosting> _______________ Learn. Laugh. Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what is RSD, on the wrist and also on the knee? Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " g " <dghaynes131 > Chinese Medicine , " " > < wrote: > > > > Hi Graham & All, > > > > > I treated ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root > > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment > which > > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling SP21. This is an > > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While massaging/needling SP21 patient > > > would report that her hand felt lighter and would immediately have > > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she felt significantly > > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least 80% better. If > > > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's book. It is not > > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point... > > > Graham > > > > Two comments: > > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach for RSD. > > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on point location > definition > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' > point... " > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. Several colleagues > report that point > > location in animals is not static. Location of some points (based on > electrical > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm > between > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the hole / > depression > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often hover the tip > of the > > needle over the skin at that location but let my intuition sense > (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into which I insert the needle. > > > > Two queries: > > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and what points > addressed > > this? > > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid- > > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip > of rib 11) > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Hi Phil- > > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese pulse and abdomen > diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change based on her > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. Genreally, I was > simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple Japanese > meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example of this) > > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21 as a 'local' > treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, it is a point > intended to affect the wrist directly and in that way may be > considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the correct > point and needle angle will result in an immediate (positive) change > at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be true. In another > part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also help for RSD. So > I think finding the point that affects a change in the wrist is the > important thing. > > I did try a true local treatment on the patient's first visit and > found that it had an adverse affect. > > Hope this helps > > Graham > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 RSD refers to a painful western medical condition where the body responds to a previous trauma with swelling, pain, discoloration that continues long after the minor event. It can appear at various locations but usually affects the upper limbs. The pain is said to be extreme. Hope this helps. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : anne.crowley: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:36:52 +0000Re: TCM - Re: AP in RSD - SP21? Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what is RSD, on the wrist and also on the knee?Anne-------------- Original message ---------------------- " g " <dghaynes131> Chinese Medicine , " " > < wrote:> >> > Hi Graham & All,> > > > > I treated .... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root> > > treatment (either 5 phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment> which> > > simply consisted of massaging and then needling SP21. This is an> > > approach mentioned in Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I> > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > would report that her hand felt lighter and would immediately have> > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she felt significantly> > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least 80% better. If> > > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's book. It is not> > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and> > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point...> > > Graham > > > > Two comments:> > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that approach for RSD.> > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on point location> definition > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live'> point... " > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. Several colleagues> report that point > > location in animals is not static. Location of some points (based on> electrical > > (conductance / impedance-based point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm> between > > animals of the same species and size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the hole /> depression > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often hover the tip> of the > > needle over the skin at that location but let my intuition sense> (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into which I insert the needle.> > > > Two queries:> > > > (1) What DX did you use to ascertain the Root, and what points> addressed > > this?> > > > (2) How does SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid-> > axillary line, or in intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip> of rib 11) > > qualify as a 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? > > > > Best regards,> > Phil Rogers> >> > > > Hi Phil-> > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese pulse and abdomen> diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change based on her> pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. Genreally, I was> simply needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple Japanese> meridian acupuncture (denmei shudo is a good example of this)> > I meant to be slightly funny by referring to Sp-21 as a 'local'> treatment. (the subtleties of language that are lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, it is a point> intended to affect the wrist directly and in that way may be> considered local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the correct> point and needle angle will result in an immediate (positive) change> at the area affected by the RSD. I found this to be true. In another> part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 may also help for RSD. So> I think finding the point that affects a change in the wrist is the> important thing.> > I did try a true local treatment on the patient's first visit and> found that it had an adverse affect.> > Hope this helps> > Graham> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2007 Report Share Posted August 11, 2007 Thanks, Mike. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > RSD refers to a painful western medical condition where the body responds to a > previous trauma with swelling, pain, discoloration that continues long after the > minor event. It can appear at various locations but usually affects the upper > limbs. The pain is said to be extreme. Hope this helps. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > : > anne.crowley: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:36:52 +0000Re: TCM - > Re: AP in RSD - SP21? > > > > > Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what is RSD, on the wrist and also on > the knee?Anne-------------- Original message ---------------------- " g " > <dghaynes131> Chinese Medicine , > " " > < wrote:> >> > Hi Graham & All,> > > > > I treated > ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root> > > treatment (either 5 > phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment> which> > > simply consisted of > massaging and then needling SP21. This is an> > > approach mentioned in Kiiko > Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I> > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who pointed > this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While > massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > would report that her hand felt lighter and > would immediately have> > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she felt > significantly> > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least 80% > better. If> > > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's book. It > is not> > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition and> > > > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point...> > > > Graham > > > > Two comments:> > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of that > approach for RSD.> > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based on > point location> definition > > and expect results. It is absolutely critical to > find the 'live'> point... " > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is important. > Several colleagues> report that point > > location in animals is not static. > Location of some points (based on> electrical > > (conductance / impedance-based > point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm> between > > animals of the same species and > size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the hole /> > depression > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often hover the > tip> of the > > needle over the skin at that location but let my intuition > sense> (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into which I > insert the needle.> > > > Two queries:> > > > (1) What DX did you use to > ascertain the Root, and what points> addressed > > this?> > > > (2) How does > SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid-> > axillary line, or in > intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip> of rib 11) > > qualify as a > 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? > > > > Best regards,> > Phil > Rogers> >> > > > Hi Phil-> > The root treatment was determined based on Japanese > pulse and abdomen> diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change based on her> > pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. Genreally, I was> simply > needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple Japanese> meridian acupuncture > (denmei shudo is a good example of this)> > I meant to be slightly funny by > referring to Sp-21 as a 'local'> treatment. (the subtleties of language that are > lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, it is a > point> intended to affect the wrist directly and in that way may be> considered > local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the correct> point and needle angle > will result in an immediate (positive) change> at the area affected by the RSD. > I found this to be true. In another> part of her book she mentions that GB-22/23 > may also help for RSD. So> I think finding the point that affects a change in > the wrist is the> important thing.> > I did try a true local treatment on the > patient's first visit and> found that it had an adverse affect.> > Hope this > helps> > Graham> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 RSD as been officially replaced by complex regional pain syndrome - <anne.crowley <Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 10, 2007 6:26 PM RE: Re: AP in RSD - SP21? > Thanks, Mike. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 >> RSD refers to a painful western medical condition where the body responds >> to a >> previous trauma with swelling, pain, discoloration that continues long >> after the >> minor event. It can appear at various locations but usually affects the >> upper >> limbs. The pain is said to be extreme. Hope this helps. Mike W. >> Bowser, L Ac >> >> >> : >> anne.crowley: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:36:52 +0000Re: >> TCM - >> Re: AP in RSD - SP21? >> >> >> >> >> Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what is RSD, on the wrist and >> also on >> the knee?Anne-------------- Original message ---------------------- >> " g " >> <dghaynes131> --- In >> Chinese Medicine , >> " " > < wrote:> >> > Hi Graham & All,> > > > > I >> treated >> ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a root> > > treatment >> (either 5 >> phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment> which> > > simply >> consisted of >> massaging and then needling SP21. This is an> > > approach mentioned in >> Kiiko >> Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I> > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who >> pointed >> this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly successful. While >> massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > would report that her hand felt >> lighter and >> would immediately have> > > greater ROM. At the end of each treatment she >> felt >> significantly> > > better and within about 10 treatments she was at least >> 80% >> better. If> > > you use this approach it would be best to read Kiiko's >> book. It >> is not> > > enough to simply find SP21 based on point location definition >> and> > >> > expect results. It is absolutely critical to find the 'live' point...> >> > > > >> Graham > > > > Two comments:> > > > (1) Well done; I had not heard of >> that >> approach for RSD.> > > > (2) " It is not enough to simply find SP21 based >> on >> point location> definition > > and expect results. It is absolutely >> critical to >> find the 'live'> point... " > > > > IMO, finding the " live " point is >> important. >> Several colleagues> report that point > > location in animals is not >> static. >> Location of some points (based on> electrical > > (conductance / >> impedance-based >> point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm> between > > animals of the same species >> and >> size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I usually palpate for the >> hole /> >> depression > > at near the " anatomical location " first. Then I often >> hover the >> tip> of the > > needle over the skin at that location but let my >> intuition >> sense> (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the exact point near that into >> which I >> insert the needle.> > > > Two queries:> > > > (1) What DX did you use to >> ascertain the Root, and what points> addressed > > this?> > > > (2) How >> does >> SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, on mid-> > axillary >> line, or in >> intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip> of rib 11) > > qualify as >> a >> 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the wrist? > > > > Best regards,> >> > Phil >> Rogers> >> > > > Hi Phil-> > The root treatment was determined based on >> Japanese >> pulse and abdomen> diagnosis. The treatment would sometimes change based >> on her> >> pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came in. Genreally, I was> >> simply >> needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple Japanese> meridian >> acupuncture >> (denmei shudo is a good example of this)> > I meant to be slightly funny >> by >> referring to Sp-21 as a 'local'> treatment. (the subtleties of language >> that are >> lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere near the wrist. However, it >> is a >> point> intended to affect the wrist directly and in that way may be> >> considered >> local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the correct> point and needle >> angle >> will result in an immediate (positive) change> at the area affected by >> the RSD. >> I found this to be true. In another> part of her book she mentions that >> GB-22/23 >> may also help for RSD. So> I think finding the point that affects a >> change in >> the wrist is the> important thing.> > I did try a true local treatment on >> the >> patient's first visit and> found that it had an adverse affect.> > Hope >> this >> helps> > Graham> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been >> removed] >> >> >> _______________ >> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more..then map the best >> route! >> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp= >> 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp >> e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Thanks Alon. --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > RSD as been officially replaced by complex regional > pain syndrome > > > > > > > > > - > <anne.crowley > <Chinese Medicine > > Friday, August 10, 2007 6:26 PM > RE: Re: AP in RSD - SP21? > > > > Thanks, Mike. > > > > Anne > > -------------- Original message > ---------------------- > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > >> RSD refers to a painful western medical condition > where the body responds > >> to a > >> previous trauma with swelling, pain, > discoloration that continues long > >> after the > >> minor event. It can appear at various locations > but usually affects the > >> upper > >> limbs. The pain is said to be extreme. Hope > this helps. Mike W. > >> Bowser, L Ac > >> > >> > >> To: > Chinese Medicine: > >> anne.crowley: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 > 21:36:52 +0000Re: > >> TCM - > >> Re: AP in RSD - SP21? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what > is RSD, on the wrist and > >> also on > >> the knee?Anne-------------- Original message > ---------------------- > >> " g " > >> <dghaynes131> --- In > >> Chinese Medicine , > >> " " > < wrote:> >> > Hi > Graham & All,> > > > > I > >> treated > >> ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a > root> > > treatment > >> (either 5 > >> phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment> > which> > > simply > >> consisted of > >> massaging and then needling SP21. This is an> > > > approach mentioned in > >> Kiiko > >> Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I> > > > (Thanks to Mike Bowser who > >> pointed > >> this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly > successful. While > >> massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > would report > that her hand felt > >> lighter and > >> would immediately have> > > greater ROM. At the > end of each treatment she > >> felt > >> significantly> > > better and within about 10 > treatments she was at least > >> 80% > >> better. If> > > you use this approach it would be > best to read Kiiko's > >> book. It > >> is not> > > enough to simply find SP21 based on > point location definition > >> and> > > >> > expect results. It is absolutely critical to > find the 'live' point...> > >> > > > > >> Graham > > > > Two comments:> > > > (1) Well > done; I had not heard of > >> that > >> approach for RSD.> > > > (2) " It is not enough to > simply find SP21 based > >> on > >> point location> definition > > and expect > results. It is absolutely > >> critical to > >> find the 'live'> point... " > > > > IMO, finding > the " live " point is > >> important. > >> Several colleagues> report that point > > > location in animals is not > >> static. > >> Location of some points (based on> electrical > > > (conductance / > >> impedance-based > >> point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm> between > > > animals of the same species > >> and > >> size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I > usually palpate for the > >> hole /> > >> depression > > at near the " anatomical location " > first. Then I often > >> hover the > >> tip> of the > > needle over the skin at that > location but let my > >> intuition > >> sense> (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the > exact point near that into > >> which I > >> insert the needle.> > > > Two queries:> > > > (1) > What DX did you use to > >> ascertain the Root, and what points> addressed > > > this?> > > > (2) How > >> does > >> SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla, > on mid-> > axillary > >> line, or in > >> intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip> > of rib 11) > > qualify as > >> a > >> 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the > wrist? > > > > Best regards,> > >> > Phil > >> Rogers> >> > > > Hi Phil-> > The root treatment > was determined based on > >> Japanese > >> pulse and abdomen> diagnosis. The treatment would > sometimes change based > >> on her> > >> pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came > in. Genreally, I was> > >> simply > >> needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple > Japanese> meridian > >> acupuncture > >> (denmei shudo is a good example of this)> > I > meant to be slightly funny > >> by > >> referring to Sp-21 as a 'local'> treatment. (the > subtleties of language > >> that are > >> lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere > near the wrist. However, it > >> is a > >> point> intended to affect the wrist directly and > in that way may be> > >> considered > >> local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the > correct> point and needle > >> angle > >> will result in an immediate (positive) change> at > the area affected by > >> the RSD. > >> I found this to be true. In another> part of her > book she mentions that > >> GB-22/23 > >> may also help for RSD. So> I think finding the > point that affects a > >> change in > >> the wrist is the> important thing.> > I did try a > true local treatment on > >> the > >> patient's first visit and> found that it had an > adverse affect.> > Hope > >> this > >> helps> > Graham> > > > > [Non-text portions of > this message have been > >> removed] > >> > >> > >> > _______________ > >> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and > more..then map the best > >> route! > >> > http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp= > >> > 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp > >> e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > >> > >> > >> > >> Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at > Chinese === message truncated === ______________________________\ ____ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Travel. http://travel./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Just an FYI, RSD, RSDS, causalgia and CRPS are all used and RSD is still very popular, at least at my chiro school. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : petrabuchanan: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 07:07:22 -0700Re: TCM - Re: AP in RSD - SP21? Thanks Alon.--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:> RSD as been officially replaced by complex regional> pain syndrome> > > > 400 29th St. #419> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > <anne.crowley> To: <Chinese Medicine >> Friday, August 10, 2007 6:26 PM> RE: Re: AP in RSD - SP21?> > > > Thanks, Mike.> >> > Anne> > -------------- Original message> ----------------------> > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1> >> RSD refers to a painful western medical condition> where the body responds > >> to a> >> previous trauma with swelling, pain,> discoloration that continues long > >> after the> >> minor event. It can appear at various locations> but usually affects the > >> upper> >> limbs. The pain is said to be extreme. Hope> this helps. Mike W. > >> Bowser, L Ac> >>> >>> >> To:> Chinese Medicine:> >> anne.crowley: Fri, 10 Aug 2007> 21:36:52 +0000Re: > >> TCM -> >> Re: AP in RSD - SP21?> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Okay, maybe I have been away too long, but what> is RSD, on the wrist and > >> also on> >> the knee?Anne-------------- Original message> ----------------------> >> " g " > >> <dghaynes131> > >> Chinese Medicine ,> >> " " > < wrote:> >> > Hi> Graham & All,> > > > > I > >> treated> >> ... RSD ...wrist... Each treatment consisted of a> root> > > treatment > >> (either 5> >> phase or Manaka) and then a 'local' treatment>> which> > > simply > >> consisted of> >> massaging and then needling SP21. This is an> > >> approach mentioned in > >> Kiiko> >> Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies Vol.I> > >> (Thanks to Mike Bowser who > >> pointed> >> this out to me). > > > > > > Tx was incredibly> successful. While> >> massaging/needling SP21 patient> > > would report> that her hand felt > >> lighter and> >> would immediately have> > > greater ROM. At the> end of each treatment she > >> felt> >> significantly> > > better and within about 10> treatments she was at least > >> 80%> >> better. If> > > you use this approach it would be> best to read Kiiko's > >> book. It> >> is not> > > enough to simply find SP21 based on> point location definition > >> and> >> >> > expect results. It is absolutely critical to> find the 'live' point...> > >> > > >> >> Graham > > > > Two comments:> > > > (1) Well> done; I had not heard of > >> that> >> approach for RSD.> > > > (2) " It is not enough to> simply find SP21 based > >> on> >> point location> definition > > and expect> results. It is absolutely > >> critical to> >> find the 'live'> point... " > > > > IMO, finding> the " live " point is > >> important.> >> Several colleagues> report that point > >> location in animals is not > >> static.> >> Location of some points (based on> electrical > >> (conductance / > >> impedance-based> >> point-finders) can vary by 1-2cm> between > >> animals of the same species > >> and> >> size. > > > > When I needle people or animals, I> usually palpate for the > >> hole />> >> depression > > at near the " anatomical location " > first. Then I often > >> hover the> >> tip> of the > > needle over the skin at that> location but let my > >> intuition> >> sense> (and guide the > > needle-tip to) the> exact point near that into > >> which I> >> insert the needle.> > > > Two queries:> > > > (1)> What DX did you use to> >> ascertain the Root, and what points> addressed >> > this?> > > > (2) How > >> does> >> SP21 (Dabao, Great Embracement, 6' below axilla,> on mid-> > axillary > >> line, or in> >> intercostal space 6, midway from axilla to tip>> of rib 11) > > qualify as > >> a> >> 'local' treatment when the RSD affected the> wrist? > > > > Best regards,> > >> > Phil> >> Rogers> >> > > > Hi Phil-> > The root treatment> was determined based on > >> Japanese> >> pulse and abdomen> diagnosis. The treatment would> sometimes change based > >> on her>> >> pulse/abdomen presentation on the day she came> in. Genreally, I was> > >> simply> >> needling Liv-8/Kd-10/Lu-9, TW-4. This is simple> Japanese> meridian > >> acupuncture> >> (denmei shudo is a good example of this)> > I> meant to be slightly funny > >> by> >> referring to Sp-21 as a 'local'> treatment. (the> subtleties of language > >> that are> >> lost on e-mail!) > Clearly it is not anywhere> near the wrist. However, it > >> is a> >> point> intended to affect the wrist directly and> in that way may be> > >> considered> >> local. In her book, Kiiko emphasizes that the> correct> point and needle > >> angle> >> will result in an immediate (positive) change> at> the area affected by > >> the RSD.> >> I found this to be true. In another> part of her> book she mentions that > >> GB-22/23> >> may also help for RSD. So> I think finding the> point that affects a > >> change in> >> the wrist is the> important thing.> > I did try a> true local treatment on > >> the> >> patient's first visit and> found that it had an> adverse affect.> > Hope > >> this> >> helps> > Graham> > > > > [Non-text portions of> this message have been > >> removed]> >>> >>> >>>________> >> Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and> more..then map the best > >> route!> >>>http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & \ cp=> >>>42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & enc\ Typ> >> e=1 & FORM=MGAC01> >>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been> removed]> >>> >>> >>> >> Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at> Chinese === message truncated ===________Need a vacation? Get great dealsto amazing places on Travel.http://travel./ _______________ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2 & ss=yp.bars~yp.pizza~yp.movie%20theater & cp=\ 42.358996~-71.056691 & style=r & lvl=13 & tilt=-90 & dir=0 & alt=-1000 & scene=950607 & encTyp\ e=1 & FORM=MGAC01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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