Guest guest Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 Hi Anne, Thank you for this discussion about firing, or rather, not firing, your patient. Last year I did fire a patient who was verbally abusive, talking angrily all the time to me in a rather blaming way. I discussed it with him a few times, and he acknowledged this tendency in himself, but her never did find a way out of it. After a while, when I noticed it affecting my personal life, I was done. I fired him. And while I was glad I did, and it felt good, I still find myself thinking about it from time to time, and wondering if there was something else I could have done. I appreciate your post. anne.crowley wrote: Okay, now I will say something. I think Pete has a good heart and I will miss him on this group. I do think that conversation had to come under control. I am a woman and a former professor and I have to admit these comments did not offend me. It did make me uncomfortable that they were so blatantly directed at individuals on here. I see a lot of metal in Pete. He cuts like a knife. One minute he says something gem-like to Dr. Nam about his stepfather, and the next minute he is spewing out the garbage of the large intestine. I may have conveyed this story before, so bear with me if you have heard it. I have a male patient who started in my practice when I put out the shingle five years ago. I also knew him when I was a professor. He had acupuncture treatment before I did (in the city - a bit of a drive from here.) Well I treated him for a year or so and I wasn't seeing the changes, so I referred him to a therapist. He met her and decided to do that along with acupuncture. Well, this therapist was the old fashioned kind - let's let this unfold, so another year goes by. He is still trying to work out relationships particularly with his wife, and come to grips with alcoholism. He is very critical every time he comes to my office. After the tornado hit our town (3 months after I set up practice), I moved things to my house. It is really a beautiful office and patients love it. He would come in and complain about the grass, the this, the that. He would say in so many words that I was not as good as his last practitioner. If I went to find the point twice - he would make a derogotory remark about that.. I found myself bracing myself before he came in. When I want to draw the line on this, is when it effects my focus on other patients, and it was starting to do that. I really believe we have to meet this energy as much as we can before it becomes intolerable. I spoke to a few of my colleagues, and they said " Don't fire him. " Do this. One suggestion was to offer him " metal " acknowlegement to control the anger in wood. I got a few different suggestions, and hung in there. Mind you none of this was about money. It was about me as a practiitioner and this relationship of serving him and those around him. So one day he comes in and says " I was up all night. My wife and I started arguing and then we had a really deep discussion about our lives and relationship (I'm paraphrasing). I haven't been nice to people - my wife, my kids, and he went on (and did not mention me). I will tell you, there was a huge change in this man. My explanation is that the needles over time, along with his therapy, brought some things to the surface that needed to come up. He still has some moments of criticism (nothing like before), he still has some challenges with his wife (drastically different than before), and he still confronts the challenge of alcohol. He really is different and the people around him are also served. Now, I have fired patients before, and of course they can fire me. But I always walk this line to see how much of this is about me stepping up as a practiitoner, and how much is just time to draw the line. These are just my thoughts folks. Not meant to offend anyone - just a rambling and and observation. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Hugo Ramiro > Hi all...I'm with Alon on this one. Hit the delete key...I erase most of the > threads anyway !! > > But seriously, I am disappointed that Pete was banned. Things seemed to have > gone really badly for him, and he is understandably angry about it. A temporary, > compassionate, ban (a time-out, if you will) might have been more appropriate. > Does the software do that, or was it coded by someone with a more draconian > bent? > > In any case, I understand how difficult bitterness is to handle...at the same > time, I am surprised at the list. We're supposed to be healers here...? But > then, who knows, banning could create a healing effect...but was that the > intent...? > > What I saw was a lot of people trying to shut him down, and very very few > trying to listen and support. I'm not surprised it turned ugly. > > In any case, I am still disappointed. Poo poo on all of you. > > Hugo > > > Alon Marcus > > > > > > Bill > > You can always choose to not read. To me its like all the ranting about media. > Just choose what you read > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, > sans-serif;} > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > #ygrp-text{ > font-family:Georgia; > } > #ygrp-text p{ > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > font-family:Arial; > clear:both;} > #ygrp-vitnav{ > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > padding:0 1px;} > #ygrp-actbar{ > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > float:left;white-space:nowrap;} > .bld{font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-grft{ > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} > #ygrp-ft{ > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; > padding:5px 0; > } > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > padding-bottom:10px;} > > #ygrp-vital{ > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp > ercase;} > #ygrp-vital ul{ > padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; > } > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri > ght:.5em;} > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > font-weight:bold;} > #ygrp-vital a { > text-decoration:none;} > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > color:#999;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} > #ygrp-sponsor #nc { > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > padding:8px 0;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122% > ;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > text-decoration:none;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > text-decoration:underline;} > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > margin:0;} > o {font-size:0;} > .MsoNormal { > margin:0 0 0 0;} > #ygrp-text tt{ > font-size:120%;} > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} > .replbq {margin:4;} > --> > > _________ > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for > your free account today > http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2007 Report Share Posted July 13, 2007 > Hi Anne, > The story of firing a patient is very interesting, but there maybe other ways around. Firing or hiring people is not a difficult job for anyone, but to keep them and enjoying a relationship is required an art. I came across these problems sometimes, but I have never put myself above anybody, firing or hurt their feelings, but comforting them. I think we are in the business to get more attention and to build relationship. Your patient is having too much problem, with alcohol and domestic issues. If this is my situation, I would do something to solve it. As an instance, I had never argued with my patients, friends nor with my children. My key is to listen to them intensively and join them because I think they need a friend, a trust and a care. I always agree with them from the beginning and then if there is somehing is out of wack, I'll offer some suggestions and listen to them again for their responses. Even if they do not agree to my suggestions, I am happy to join their views , wait and see. Gaining a difficult friend is great for everybody in the future, and I had so much in return from them. We are here to learn from them and helping them to help you. If we are to fire anybody, we put ourselves too high above them. Are we the ones who always doing right? No one is perfect. Please don't fire anybody. Find a way to make them a part of your social life, you will enjoy it. They need us, care and love. Easy come easy go. Patients who are friendly and easy from the beginging may turn back against you somedays. you may never know or expect it. This may end up ugly. But for difficult ones, we are learning from them how people react and build ourselves defensive system. Thanks for your considering ! > Thank you for this discussion about firing, or > rather, not firing, your patient. Last year I did > fire a patient who was verbally abusive, talking > angrily all the time to me in a rather blaming way. > I discussed it with him a few times, and he > acknowledged this tendency in himself, but her never > did find a way out of it. After a while, when I > noticed it affecting my personal life, I was done. > I fired him. And while I was glad I did, and it > felt good, I still find myself thinking about it > from time to time, and wondering if there was > something else I could have done. I appreciate your > post. > > > > anne.crowley wrote: Okay, now I will > say something. > > I think Pete has a good heart and I will miss him on > this group. I do think > that conversation had to come under control. > I am a woman and a former professor and I have to > admit these comments did not > offend me. It did make me uncomfortable that they > were so blatantly directed at > individuals on here. > > I see a lot of metal in Pete. He cuts like a knife. > One minute he says > something gem-like to Dr. Nam about his stepfather, > and the next minute he is > spewing out the garbage of the large intestine. > > I may have conveyed this story before, so bear with > me if you have heard it. > > I have a male patient who started in my practice > when I put out the shingle five > years ago. I also knew him when I was a professor. > He had acupuncture > treatment before I did (in the city - a bit of a > drive from here.) > Well I treated him for a year or so and I wasn't > seeing the changes, so I > referred him to a therapist. He met her and decided > to do that along with > acupuncture. Well, this therapist was the old > fashioned kind - let's let this > unfold, so another year goes by. He is still trying > to work out relationships > particularly with his wife, and come to grips with > alcoholism. > > He is very critical every time he comes to my > office. After the tornado hit our > town (3 months after I set up practice), I moved > things to my house. It is > really a beautiful office and patients love it. He > would come in and complain > about the grass, the this, the that. He would say > in so many words that I was > not as good as his last practitioner. If I went to > find the point twice - he > would make a derogotory remark about that.. I found > myself bracing myself > before he came in. > > When I want to draw the line on this, is when it > effects my focus on other > patients, and it was starting to do that. I really > believe we have to meet this > energy as much as we can before it becomes > intolerable. > I spoke to a few of my colleagues, and they said > " Don't fire him. " Do this. > One suggestion was to offer him " metal " > acknowlegement to control the anger in > wood. I got a few different suggestions, and hung > in there. Mind you none of > this was about money. It was about me as a > practiitioner and this relationship > of serving him and those around him. > > So one day he comes in and says " I was up all night. > My wife and I started > arguing and then we had a really deep discussion > about our lives and > relationship (I'm paraphrasing). I haven't been > nice to people - my wife, my > kids, and he went on (and did not mention me). I > will tell you, there was a > huge change in this man. My explanation is that the > needles over time, along > with his therapy, brought some things to the surface > that needed to come up. > He still has some moments of criticism (nothing like > before), he still has some > challenges with his wife (drastically different than > before), and he still > confronts the challenge of alcohol. He really is > different and the people > around him are also served. > > Now, I have fired patients before, and of course > they can fire me. But I always > walk this line to see how much of this is about me > stepping up as a > practiitoner, and how much is just time to draw the > line. > > These are just my thoughts folks. Not meant to > offend anyone - just a rambling > and and observation. > > Anne > > > -------------- Original message > ---------------------- > Hugo Ramiro > > Hi all...I'm with Alon on this one. Hit the > delete key...I erase most of the > > threads anyway !! > > > > But seriously, I am disappointed that Pete was > banned. Things seemed to have > > gone really badly for him, and he is > understandably angry about it. A > temporary, > > compassionate, ban (a time-out, if you will) might > have been more appropriate. > > Does the software do that, or was it coded by > someone with a more draconian > > bent? > > > > In any case, I understand how difficult > bitterness is to handle...at the same > > time, I am surprised at the list. We're supposed > to be healers here...? But > > then, who knows, banning could create a healing > effect...but was that the > > intent...? > > > > What I saw was a lot of people trying to shut him > down, and very very few > > trying to listen and support. I'm not surprised it > turned ugly. > > > > In any case, I am still disappointed. Poo poo on > all of you. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Alon Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > You can always choose to not read. To me its like > all the ranting about media. > > Just choose what you read > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, > helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% > arial, helvetica, clean, > > sans-serif;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > > #ygrp-text{ > > font-family:Georgia; > > } > > #ygrp-text p{ > > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > === message truncated === ______________________________\ ____ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. http://farechase./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Andrea; We are not superman or superwoman. Sometimes we are not strong enough to counter this bad behavior, and it's okay. The only thing you could do was warn him and explain that it is for the sake of both of you that this relationship must end. Of course you give him names of other practitioners. I fired someone when I was in clinic, when we were desparate to get patients in so we could graduate. What I noticed was that my constitution at that time was not strong enough to meet his. School can be very exhausting and while I was professional with my patients, this partiuclar one would push me over the edge of holding everything together. So that ended. One of the people I put on the 3 referral list was the head of our school. That was the kind of personality that would have worked well with his energy. Also he had been around this practitioner in a workshop before, so was familar with his style. Andrea, we do what we can and push ourselves over our edges. But we are not superhuman. If it interferes with your personal life and you other patients, it's time to make a change. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- < > Hi Anne, > > Thank you for this discussion about firing, or rather, not firing, your patient. > Last year I did fire a patient who was verbally abusive, talking angrily all the > time to me in a rather blaming way. I discussed it with him a few times, and he > acknowledged this tendency in himself, but her never did find a way out of it. > After a while, when I noticed it affecting my personal life, I was done. I > fired him. And while I was glad I did, and it felt good, I still find myself > thinking about it from time to time, and wondering if there was something else I > could have done. I appreciate your post. > > > > anne.crowley wrote: Okay, now I will say something. > > I think Pete has a good heart and I will miss him on this group. I do think > that conversation had to come under control. > I am a woman and a former professor and I have to admit these comments did not > offend me. It did make me uncomfortable that they were so blatantly directed at > individuals on here. > > I see a lot of metal in Pete. He cuts like a knife. One minute he says > something gem-like to Dr. Nam about his stepfather, and the next minute he is > spewing out the garbage of the large intestine. > > I may have conveyed this story before, so bear with me if you have heard it. > > I have a male patient who started in my practice when I put out the shingle five > years ago. I also knew him when I was a professor. He had acupuncture > treatment before I did (in the city - a bit of a drive from here.) > Well I treated him for a year or so and I wasn't seeing the changes, so I > referred him to a therapist. He met her and decided to do that along with > acupuncture. Well, this therapist was the old fashioned kind - let's let this > unfold, so another year goes by. He is still trying to work out relationships > particularly with his wife, and come to grips with alcoholism. > > He is very critical every time he comes to my office. After the tornado hit our > town (3 months after I set up practice), I moved things to my house. It is > really a beautiful office and patients love it. He would come in and complain > about the grass, the this, the that. He would say in so many words that I was > not as good as his last practitioner. If I went to find the point twice - he > would make a derogotory remark about that.. I found myself bracing myself > before he came in. > > When I want to draw the line on this, is when it effects my focus on other > patients, and it was starting to do that. I really believe we have to meet this > energy as much as we can before it becomes intolerable. > I spoke to a few of my colleagues, and they said " Don't fire him. " Do this. > One suggestion was to offer him " metal " acknowlegement to control the anger in > wood. I got a few different suggestions, and hung in there. Mind you none of > this was about money. It was about me as a practiitioner and this relationship > of serving him and those around him. > > So one day he comes in and says " I was up all night. My wife and I started > arguing and then we had a really deep discussion about our lives and > relationship (I'm paraphrasing). I haven't been nice to people - my wife, my > kids, and he went on (and did not mention me). I will tell you, there was a > huge change in this man. My explanation is that the needles over time, along > with his therapy, brought some things to the surface that needed to come up. > He still has some moments of criticism (nothing like before), he still has some > challenges with his wife (drastically different than before), and he still > confronts the challenge of alcohol. He really is different and the people > around him are also served. > > Now, I have fired patients before, and of course they can fire me. But I always > walk this line to see how much of this is about me stepping up as a > practiitoner, and how much is just time to draw the line. > > These are just my thoughts folks. Not meant to offend anyone - just a rambling > and and observation. > > Anne > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Hugo Ramiro > > Hi all...I'm with Alon on this one. Hit the delete key...I erase most of the > > threads anyway !! > > > > But seriously, I am disappointed that Pete was banned. Things seemed to have > > gone really badly for him, and he is understandably angry about it. A > temporary, > > compassionate, ban (a time-out, if you will) might have been more appropriate. > > Does the software do that, or was it coded by someone with a more draconian > > bent? > > > > In any case, I understand how difficult bitterness is to handle...at the same > > time, I am surprised at the list. We're supposed to be healers here...? But > > then, who knows, banning could create a healing effect...but was that the > > intent...? > > > > What I saw was a lot of people trying to shut him down, and very very few > > trying to listen and support. I'm not surprised it turned ugly. > > > > In any case, I am still disappointed. Poo poo on all of you. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > Alon Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > You can always choose to not read. To me its like all the ranting about media. > > Just choose what you read > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, > > sans-serif;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} > > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} > > #ygrp-text{ > > font-family:Georgia; > > } > > #ygrp-text p{ > > margin:0 0 1em 0;} > > #ygrp-tpmsgs{ > > font-family:Arial; > > clear:both;} > > #ygrp-vitnav{ > > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} > > #ygrp-vitnav a{ > > padding:0 1px;} > > #ygrp-actbar{ > > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} > > #ygrp-actbar .left{ > > float:left;white-space:nowrap;} > > .bld{font-weight:bold;} > > #ygrp-grft{ > > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} > > #ygrp-ft{ > > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; > > padding:5px 0; > > } > > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ > > padding-bottom:10px;} > > > > #ygrp-vital{ > > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} > > #ygrp-vital #vithd{ > > > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp > > ercase;} > > #ygrp-vital ul{ > > padding:0;margin:2px 0;} > > #ygrp-vital ul li{ > > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; > > } > > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ > > > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri > > ght:.5em;} > > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ > > font-weight:bold;} > > #ygrp-vital a { > > text-decoration:none;} > > > > #ygrp-vital a:hover{ > > text-decoration:underline;} > > > > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ > > color:#999;font-size:77%;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ > > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ > > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ > > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ > > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} > > #ygrp-sponsor #nc { > > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ > > padding:8px 0;} > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ > > > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122% > > ;} > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ > > text-decoration:none;} > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ > > text-decoration:underline;} > > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ > > margin:0;} > > o {font-size:0;} > > .MsoNormal { > > margin:0 0 0 0;} > > #ygrp-text tt{ > > font-size:120%;} > > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} > > .replbq {margin:4;} > > --> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________ > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for > > your free account today > > http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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