Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 A general question for the list given the various discussions about schools and training recently. One thing I have found interesting about the schools I've been exposed to in Canada, is that they don't really teach you how to feel for Qi. This was something that the doctor I apprenticed with said was essential before you should be allowed to needle. Later I was in a point location class at the school I went to. The instructor asked me to find a point on a fellow student. I found the point, and the instructor immediately told me I was wrong and that the point was up and over less than a 1/4 cun. I had da qi at the point I'd identified, and the instructor was not able to da qi at the point he was insisting was the correct point. I am curious to know what people's experience has been about learning to feel and/or sense qi, both in yourself and your patient? I am interested in what you learned or didn't in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 This is a good topic Mark and I'm interested to hear other's responses. At my school we are taught that the correct point location is essential for testing purposes and as a basis to begin looking for the qi. Every teacher teaches differently but the ones that ring true to me are the ones who state adamantly that points " move " . I recently attended a class taught by Dr. Wang Ju Yi from China who said that points are at different locations on different people and at different times of the day and it is essential to palpate the points for qi as well as the meridians. In my limited practice of needling I have found this to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 In the classroom I was taught the text book location and Dr Li was soooo picky (thankfully). He made sure we knew where it was for the board exam.....but when it came to the clinic he and others made sure we could find the point on a live person....ie where the point really was. Bob Mark Milotay <mark wrote: A general question for the list given the various discussions about schools and training recently. One thing I have found interesting about the schools I've been exposed to in Canada, is that they don't really teach you how to feel for Qi. This was something that the doctor I apprenticed with said was essential before you should be allowed to needle. Later I was in a point location class at the school I went to. The instructor asked me to find a point on a fellow student. I found the point, and the instructor immediately told me I was wrong and that the point was up and over less than a 1/4 cun. I had da qi at the point I'd identified, and the instructor was not able to da qi at the point he was insisting was the correct point. I am curious to know what people's experience has been about learning to feel and/or sense qi, both in yourself and your patient? I am interested in what you learned or didn't in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 I have been studying with Dr. Wang the past two months. He definitely needles points based on what he feels, not on a visual location. When you get a treatment from him, there is no mistaking when he has hit the point. He feels for a " space " or depression on the channel to locate the point. When he uses an unconventional location, he has already confirmed it by years of needling at that location. Chinese Medicine , Kimberly Anne <kimberleyanne wrote: > > This is a good topic Mark and I'm interested to hear other's > responses. At my school we are taught that the correct point > location is essential for testing purposes and as a basis to begin > looking for the qi. Every teacher teaches differently but the ones > that ring true to me are the ones who state adamantly that points > " move " . I recently attended a class taught by Dr. Wang Ju Yi from > China who said that points are at different locations on different > people and at different times of the day and it is essential to > palpate the points for qi as well as the meridians. In my limited > practice of needling I have found this to be true. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 yes, i think it is essential to learn text book localisation first, a) for the exams and b) to have a general map of all meridians and points in your head. while practicing acupuncture i let myself be guided by the bodystructure of each patient and by the sensation of qi i get while palpating the area of a chosen point. in my school i learned mainly point localisation by the book. some teachers mentioned though that in their daily practice they dont measure with cun.. one of our teachers let us " feel " qi by having us touch a needle we (students) inserted and again after he had manipulated or re-inserted it. and yes, there was a difference of sensation quite often! i guess that after a while of practicing you start to rely onto your feelings/sensations more and more. good luck rebekka Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > In the classroom I was taught the text book location and Dr Li was soooo picky (thankfully). He made sure we knew where it was for the board exam.....but when it came to the clinic he and others made sure we could find the point on a live person....ie where the point really was. > Bob > > Mark Milotay <mark wrote: > A general question for the list given the various discussions about schools > and training recently. One thing I have found interesting about the schools > I've been exposed to in Canada, is that they don't really teach you how to > feel for Qi. This was something that the doctor I apprenticed with said was > essential before you should be allowed to needle. Later I was in a point > location class at the school I went to. The instructor asked me to find a > point on a fellow student. I found the point, and the instructor immediately > told me I was wrong and that the point was up and over less than a 1/4 cun. > I had da qi at the point I'd identified, and the instructor was not able to > da qi at the point he was insisting was the correct point. > > I am curious to know what people's experience has been about learning to > feel and/or sense qi, both in yourself and your patient? I am interested in > what you learned or didn't in school. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Rebekka and Bob are right. Priority one for our schools is for us to pass our exams. Period. Hopefully, they do a good job at it, but we get very little support or preparation for life beyond. Bill mentioned his good fortune of being able to mentor with Dr. Wang. Indeed in the seminar I took a couple of weeks ago with Jeffrey Yuen, he emphasized on a number of occasions the same point: Acupoints do not correspond exactly to a topological roadmap and every patient's locations are unique. Furthermore, he said that if you can't feel the qi in a specific location where you are supposed to, then " create " a point by gently stimulating and rubbing the area where the qi should be, thereby unlocking it. As a CranioSacral therapist, we are taught to listen to the body with the proprioceptors in fingers (very non-confucianist), and that has had a tremendous impact on my own ability to cultivate my own Qi as well as feeling it in my patients as well. I think that it's very important for us to realize that we treat real living people with anatomical and physiological individuality, and not gold statues. Respectfully, Yehuda knumpf1 <knumpf1 wrote: yes, i think it is essential to learn text book localisation first, a) for the exams and b) to have a general map of all meridians and points in your head. while practicing acupuncture i let myself be guided by the bodystructure of each patient and by the sensation of qi i get while palpating the area of a chosen point. in my school i learned mainly point localisation by the book. some teachers mentioned though that in their daily practice they dont measure with cun.. one of our teachers let us " feel " qi by having us touch a needle we (students) inserted and again after he had manipulated or re-inserted it. and yes, there was a difference of sensation quite often! i guess that after a while of practicing you start to rely onto your feelings/sensations more and more. good luck rebekka Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > In the classroom I was taught the text book location and Dr Li was soooo picky (thankfully). He made sure we knew where it was for the board exam.....but when it came to the clinic he and others made sure we could find the point on a live person....ie where the point really was. > Bob > > Mark Milotay <mark wrote: > A general question for the list given the various discussions about schools > and training recently. One thing I have found interesting about the schools > I've been exposed to in Canada, is that they don't really teach you how to > feel for Qi. This was something that the doctor I apprenticed with said was > essential before you should be allowed to needle. Later I was in a point > location class at the school I went to. The instructor asked me to find a > point on a fellow student. I found the point, and the instructor immediately > told me I was wrong and that the point was up and over less than a 1/4 cun. > I had da qi at the point I'd identified, and the instructor was not able to > da qi at the point he was insisting was the correct point. > > I am curious to know what people's experience has been about learning to > feel and/or sense qi, both in yourself and your patient? I am interested in > what you learned or didn't in school. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 The way I see the " skill " of feeling Qi it demands three things of the practitioner - and this is serious business: 1) Proper intellectual understanding - even more important outside East Asia due to simple cultural differences. So proper schooling (point location, theory, etc. ) is vital be it in an institution or in apprenticeship. 2) Palpation skills (The Japanese tradition is a wonderful place to start) 3) We need to break up the stagnation in our lives and unnumb our senses: Get off the coffee, sugar, cigarettes, medication (including: supplements) that is not absolutely vital to our health, get our sleep, get in control of our emotions, meditate on WuJi - In short take repsonsibility for ourselves through conscious choice making clearing/sharpening our senses and the PROMISE is that we will understand and feel Qi. Feeling Qi is not an actual skill as such. Qi is the function of transformation of Yin into Yang as manifesting in 5 Transformations (categorization) and the 8 Principles (manifestation of pathology) - so in order to feel and know it we need to allow ourselves the great privilege of being it - the stagnation we are trying to eliminate from your patients is exactly the stagnation that keeps one from being it - we need to eliminate it! Humbly, Thomas Sorensen -- Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin Albanigade 23A, Kld. 5000 Odense C Denmark Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 info www.orientalskmedicin.dk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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