Some informations about Traditional Chinese Medicine jobs

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark

I was just commenting on your statement that The human body is designed to fix

itself. That is a western concept not CM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

zedbowls

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:17 PM

Re: Some informations about Traditional jobs

 

 

one portion of my previous post appears here

>

> The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

> unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not heal

> anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's

ability

> to heal.

> >>>>>>

 

To which " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus responded:

> This idea is not really part of CM. Early intervention is advocated

in CM. You are mixing paradigms

 

Dr. Marcus:

Thank you for your insight, and please pardon our straying from the

ideal. Please let me explain.

 

We practice in Indiana, in the heartland where people have had little

exposure to alternative medicine concepts and virtually no exposure

(other than the Oprah Show) to Chinese medicine.

 

We treat 6 - 10 new clients every week who have never before seen an

acupuncturist...people who come to us as a " last resort " after having

exhausted (or at least after becoming exhausted with) their western

medical options. We draw clients from a 75 mile radius (3 sigma).

 

Most (at least 80%) of these new clients arrive with their health in

RUIN.

 

While we would love to limit our practice to early intervention and

health optimization, we find these are not particularly effective

with these nes clients. Health restoration is what they need.

 

Once people have been thru a customized health restoration plan which

includes quite a bit of education we can then help keep them healthy

thru regular (2x, 3x, 4x, or 6x/year depending on the underlying

strength of their constitution) visits that include check-up/tune-up

while they concentrate on proper movement, proper nutrition, proper

hydration, proper breathing, and proper thinking.

 

Once we have accomplished our larger goal of converting our entire

region to using chinese medicine as their first choice in caring for

their health, we should have no trouble practicing solely as you

suggest we should in keeping with the traditions of CM.

 

Respectfully,

Mark Zaranski

EWA, Chesterton, Indiana

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> zedbowls

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:03 PM

> Re: Some informations about Traditional Chinese

Medicine jobs

>

>

> With all due respect, I feel the need to interject a reality

check

> for the benefit of those monitoring this list who are in the

process

> of training for what they hope will be their career. Certainly

many

> of you who are successful in practice have been simply hitting

the

> delete button on this thread, unwilling to read the bitter

writings

> of those who haven't reached that level. I suggest instead that

you

> simply " speak-up " and briefly outline your own successful

experience

> so that others may learn or at least be inspired.

>

> Training for " acupuncture " like " massage " attracts many who have

> found life-changing help for their own health issues

thru " natural "

> means. It is not hard to understand someone who has experienced

> dramatic (or even mundane) turnaround in their life wanting to

share

> that experience with others who could benefit from the same. The

> reality of private practice is often way more work than they

expected.

>

> The biggest problem is that there is no one who has a vested

interest

> in seeing these people succeed after they have been trained.

>

> MDs would have the same problem if there were not hospitals that

> needed laborers, and if there were not gargantuan pharmaceutical

> companies that needed pushers for their products. Alas, there are.

>

> The only people who benefit from those who practice chinese

medicine

> (well) in the U.S.A. are the clients who are helped by those

> practitioners, their loved ones, and others directly linked. No

big

> businesses profit from the practice other than those who supply

what

> that practitioner needs, those who train the next generation

inspired

> by those who went before, and those who make their living

consulting

> those practitioners. The suppliers and consultants actually have

an

> interest in seeing those practitioners who are their customers

> succeed (obviously because if the practitioner fails, they stop

> buying goods and or services). The schools really don't care that

> much either way.

>

> I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

> some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The

one

> I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " .

If

> you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who

can

> are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

> apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

very

> few students at a time. Other issues such as standardization and

> quality assurance make the apprentice system troublesome in terms

of

> reliability. And then there is the issue of credentialing,

usually

> administered by those who came first. The obvious exceptions are

> those masters who find time to share their expertise with many in

> brief encounters such as weekend training seminars on specific,

> limited topics.

>

> School is a great place to learn basics, and most academic-based

> mentors and role models are great if you want to be an academic.

> Most schools courses in things like " Practice Essentials " are

quite

> frankly jokes. I have experienced the practice methods of several

> excellent professors, well respected in the field, authors of

> excellent books on the subject--able to treat only one person at

a

> time, an hour each, maybe 4 or 5 people on a good day when their

> class schedule doesn't interfere if they can get that many

bookings.

> Effective? Maybe. Successful? Perhaps, but mostly as professors

> not as practitioners. Atempting to emulate this model while

paying

> rent on a space plus providing food and shelter for self (let

alone

> dependents)? Disaster. Having money leftover for promotions or

> marketing to attract more people? Ha!

>

> At this time, our profession is not really suited for those who

want

> a job in the classic sense where you work for someone else who

> parentally protects you from the realities of the marketplace and

> accepts the risks of being in business while you simply punch the

> clock, insert needles, and collect a paycheck. If this is what

you

> want, forget this profession and most forms of natural health

care.

>

> There are PLENTY of ways to succeed in this field, and plenty of

> example of those who do/have. Certainly there are also many

> definitions of success. We measure ours based on how many lives

> truly change thru our efforts: How many kids we are able to keep

off

> Ritalin, off steroids; how many mothers can get off their

> antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs so that they can deal with

> REALITY and raise their kids without the pharmaceutical haze; how

> many people are able to avoid unneccessary surgeries and keep the

> organs they were born with; how many people learn how to live to

> avoid damaging their bodies, how many people can turn their lives

> around and find peace and purpose thru health and happiness.

>

> Did you study and work hard for nearly a decade struggling to

> understand and assimilate 5000 years of evidence in Chinese

Medicine

> just to be a substitute for pain pills? Do you let people

continue

> to believe that it is right to demand correction for what is

wrong

> with our automobiles while accepting that nothing more than

relief is

> possible for our bodies?

>

> The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

> unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not

heal

> anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's

ability

> to heal.

>

> Proper thinking is the most important action one can do to stay

> healthy (above proper breathing, proper hydration, proper

nutrition,

> and proper movement). Get yourself healthy first, then practice

the

> big five (above, all start with " proper " ), then decide how you

want

> to change your world, create a plan and follow it. Never

> underestimate the power of intention, and don't be afraid to work

> hard for your goals. Seek help from those who have succeeded

before

> you so that you are not forced to reinvent the wheel. Educate

those

> you encounter on how the body works and how what you DO can get

and

> keep them healthy. The more they understand and the healthier

they

> become, the more they will share their knowlege with others and

thus

> fill your practice with referrals. Become recognized in your

> community as an expert by contributing articles on health to your

> local newspaper and by lecturing in the community on health

topics of

> general interest (digestive issues, natural means of resolving

pain,

> balancing hormones, etc.). Network with MDs & DOs and simply ask

> them to send you their incurables (what do either have to lose?).

> Maybe have the foresight to avoid an oversaturated area with low-

(or

> no-)cost relief care available at a school that neither

understands

> nor practices the full potential of this marvelous health-

restoring

> ancient " medical " system.

>

> I wish you ALL success on your own terms, and goodnight.

>

> Mark Zaranski

> East Wind Acupuncture, Inc

> www.ewacupuncture.com

>

> Oh yeah, our plans are to open two additional clinics (about two

> years down the road) where we will have opportunities for a few

more

> acupuncturists with good hands and good skills who aren't

interested

> in thier own business...We will be needing one more associate

> acupuncturist for our existing clinic sometime in the winter (if

> things continue growing as they are) who will needle on Fridays

and

> Saturdays. I'll post our needs as they arise.

>

> Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:02, anne.crowley@ wrote:

> > <snip>

> > > With all that said, I really believe some people don't want

to be

> in

> > > business for themselves. Then I would say work as a

contractor

> or employee

> > > for an acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or

work

> for a

> > > hospital or anothe organization that is assuming all this

> overhead.

> >

> > Hi Dr. Anne!

> >

> > You have touched on perhaps the biggest part of the problem.

There

> is SO much

> > money in education, borrowed money, that the field attracts

many

> slightly

> > dishonest people who want to suck down that student loan money.

I

> think even

> > today the schools are implying that the students will be able

to

> graduate and

> > get JOBS when in reality there are NO, or nearly no, jobs to be

had.

> >

> > The schools and teachers just want to get that student loan

cash

> flowing in,

> > never mind that 80% of the graduates never practice and of

those

> who do

> > practice something on the order of 90% lose money for years

even if

> they

> > don't out-and-out fail.

> >

> > The people who so vehemently object to this being honestly

> discussed? Usually

> > they are a part of the school gravy train.

> > --

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > http://www.pete-theisen.com/

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete and Mark,

 

Just want you to know there is a prospective student out there who

appreciates that you post on this subject.

 

Trish

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

Let me begin by apologizing for offending you. It was not my

intention to disturb you, or for you read my post and misinterpret it

as me attacking you, those who teach, or the profession of teaching

in general. It was unwise of me to include in my post such a

politically incorrect saying that so many could so easily take as

offensive, and my posting of something virtually everyone has heard

at one time and another could easily have been anticipated by me as

something some people may assume I endorse even tho I think careful

unbiased reading of my post would indicate that was not the case.

While only one made their offense known, certainly another 9 or 99

suffered in silence. I am ashamed by my own unfeeling brashness,

incomprehensible for any more sensitive man half my age. Due to my

own embarrassment I shall post nothing more on this thread beyond

this reply.

 

I have the highest respect and deepest affection for MANY of my

teachers, instructors, and professors from my long and storied

(continuing to this very day and hopefully forever into the future)

role as a student and learner.

 

We (by this I mean myself and my collegues at our clinic) teach our

clients, we train our acupuncture assistants, our senior staff

develop our junior staff, we guest-lecture at area universities, we

teach health- and CM-related workshops in the community. But we are

not primarily teachers, and do not call or consider ourselves such.

Our primary job is that of Clinicians. Sometimes new people have to

wait weeks to get into our clinic (we do everything we can to get

those in acute trouble treated asap, its the chronic ones who

occasionally have to wait). If our Clinicians had regular academic

responsibilities, the wait would be so long that many would lose hope.

 

I presently average 12 outside lectures (lets say one hour each)per

year to an average of 10 people(estimate), plus I was personally

responsible for ~90 minutes of education (split into two sessions)for

each of 240 new client who went thru at least 3 treatments during

2006 (actual) for a minimum estimate/actual total of 480 student-

hours that I " taught " last year (my numbers will be significantly

higher this year), yet if asked I would not report that I was or am a

Teacher.

 

I interpret from your post that teaching is only a very small part of

your CM professional

life. Based on your numbers of 7-10 hours per week/2 out of four

academic quarters per year, I estimate 20 weeks x 8.5 hours = 170

contact hours per year. I could complete my estimate if I knew your

average students per class hour. We practitioners average 34 contact

hours (with clients, doesn't include outside lectures) IN our clinic

49 weeks per year for a total of 1666 hours per year. If you have

similar time per year devoted to work involving CM, your teaching

amounts to about 10% of that time. This percentage rises to 25% if

you are lucky enough that you can afford to keep your yearly work

time down to 1360 hours.

 

Remember, most full time employees working 40 hr/wk with two weeks

vacation toil 2000 hours per year.

 

Perhaps it would be more definitive to compute this percentage based

on income? I receive no direct income from the education that I do

as our client education is without charge, and our community

education is without charge. Based on an estimate from numbers you

posted, you might receive about $7000 (before taxes) for your

teaching annually. If this were to amount to 25% of your CM income,

those hoping to be " successful " might not see you as being so. If

this represented only 10% of your CM income some may continue with

that opinion while others may see your practice as being a model to

follow.

 

You brought-up an immensely important aspect of worklife in your post

regarding what you choose to do and the what you find rewarding.

 

Teachers are essential. Some of them are gifted healers who are also

capable of very effectively communicating their knowlege to others

who would emulate thier healing success. Perhaps these examples have

a greater effect on their world by helping turn-out the next

generation of healers rather than by helping as many people

(directly )as they could if they used the time in which they teach

many to instead treat a few...

 

If the goal of education was simply to generate more educators, then

teachers would be the best role models for students to follow.

 

If practitioners want rewarding careers treating people in a clinical

setting, successful clinicians with rewarding practices are the best

role models.

 

Apologetically yours,

Mark Z

 

Chinese Medicine , " Bill

Schoenbart " <plantmed wrote:

>

> Marc,

>

> I think the topic can be addressed without making derogatory

> comments about teachers in general. It's disrespectful, inaccurate,

> and unnecessary. It's not out of context or a sign of impaired

> reading comprehension to comment on that aspect of the post.

>

> I strongly disagree that people choose to teach because they can't

> be successful at practicing. Not everybody wants to practice full

> time. Some people just prefer to make teaching a part of their

> career. It's not a sign of failure. It's a personal preference.

> Everybody has a different relationship to the medicine. Some people

> practice part time, some depend completely on their practice for

all

> their income. It's essential that students decide what is best for

> them and plan accordingly.

>

> I completely agree that schools need to do a much better job of

> preparing students for the realities of clinical practice. I also

> believe that people who have thriving practices should be the ones

> to teach practice management courses. Preparing students with

> accurate information as early as possible is the best way to change

> the misconceptions that lead to a failure to thrive.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls "

> <zaranski@> wrote:

> >

> > Bill,

> >

> > I hope your teaching is better than your reading comprehension.

> >

> > The TOPIC of this post is about the lack of " jobs " in CM and

> > succeeding in private practice.

> >

> > Most of those who TEACH CM full time are not people who have

> thriving

> > private practices. THEY ARE BUSY DOING WHAT I HOPE YOU ARE

DOING,

> > teaching their students in a meaningful way the meat of what can

> be

> > learned in a classroom setting. THEIR CONCENTRATION MUST BE ON

> THE

> > COMMUNICATION OF THIS KNOWLEGE. Their expertise is rarely that

of

> > building and growing a business based on the use of chinese

> medicine.

> >

> > Most practitioners I've communicated with feel their required

> > Business Mastery or Practice Success course(s) at CM school were

> > little better than wastes of time.

> >

> > READ the post for what it is, rather than getting your feathers

> > ruffled by something YOU took out of context.

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Bill

> > Schoenbart " <plantmed@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be

really

> > > offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not

because

> I

> > > can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will

> have

> > > long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do

> it

> > > because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike

> it

> > > rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive

> statement

> > > with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no

> intention

> > to

> > > hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common

> > sayings

> > > can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain

> > stupidity.

> > > Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should

repeat

> > them.

> > > Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that

> way

> > > about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

> > >

> > > - Bill

> > >

> > > > I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is

> usually

> > > > some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> > > > and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ).

> The

> > one

> > > > I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't,

> teach " .

> > If

> > > > you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those

> who

> > can

> > > > are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of

> the

> > > > apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

> > very

> > > > few students at a time.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

i am female

i am young (28)

and i wouldnt say i am extremely good looking but i dont think im horribly

ugly either

i would say i look about 5-8 years younger than i really am and it is not a

thing that boosts business

i often feel that because i look so young people do not take me seriously or

think that i must have

earned some 100 hour certification because there is no way someone who looks

so young could actually be a licensed acupuncturist with a masters degree, i

have had people tell me that they i look too young and would feel comfortable

with someone older

young and attractive does not always equal business, just so you know

 

Beth Grubb

Licensed Acupuncturist

Certified Animal Acupuncturist

410-591-2644

beth

www.bethgrubb.com

 

 

 

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Where would we be without our teachers? Our teachers are our

enablers, they are why we are able to learn and practice this amazing

medicine. The teachers at my school do not make nearly enough salary

to live on, they teach because they want to share their knowledge.

Teaching is a very difficult job. I was a teacher in the past and it

was one of the most difficult jobs I've had. I looked at this topic

because I thought it had something to do with jobs in CM and was a

little shocked to see what it truly was about. I give kudos to all

the teachers and highly recommend watching the movie " Freedom

Writers " - which is about teachers and in my opinion is one of the

best movies of the year - along with Michael Moore's " SiCKO " .

Teachers can truly change the world for the better.

[Guest guest]

The doctor I originally apprenticed with really warned me about the schools

here in Victoria, BC Canada. He had been involved in setting up the two main

ones, and was quite concerned with what he saw going on. They had shifted

heavily toward processing students, rather than training healers. If you

were able to make your tuition each year, you would make it through the

program. Whether or not you could get licensed was another thing, but that

wasn't really their concern. When I interviewed with each of them, I asked

the question 'If I graduate with high marks from your program, can you

guarantee me that I will get licensed in BC.'. None of them were able to

guarantee me this. Students need to be very careful consumers, because it is

a huge investment they are making.

 

 

On 7/8/07, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> I would like to add an interesting tidbit to this discussion on

> misrepresentation

> by the schools. I have now for the last several years been hearing some

> interesting misinformation from a program that I have regular contact

> with.

> What disturbs me is that the students are gullible and a promise of

> getting

> a doctorate degree in OM, when the school is nowhere close to offering one

> is a terrible thing. Likewise, I have spoken with a transfer student who

> came

> from another school who was told that radiology, labs and physical exams

> were a part of her TCM curricula. She transferred in and then found out

> later

> that was a lie. She has since left and considered moving to attend a CA

> school.

> What bothers me about this is that it does make our education appear very

> money oriented. I have no solutions but hope that others working for

> schools

> use their ethical judgement to uphold higher standards. Thanks for letting

> me

> share this opinion.

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

HI Pete

It seems that I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be...this information was

told to me when I was looking for an acupuncture school. The year was

1992. (I needed some substantial prerequisite study first and started in

1996)

 

I don't know what the current numbers would be, to be honest. As I

mentioned even then ('92) that wasn't overly impressive...but I'm not

targeting the median. Also, it seems that Petra's posting was intimating

that if we get in this medicine for the money, we might be mistaken.

 

I believe that everyone on the group agrees with you that ANY loan

should be tendered with full disclosure as to the costs and obligations.

If not, it would be a major problem.

 

The psychology of FOA has been researched many times and humans do have

certain tendencies...but those of us who aren't especially good looking

can still succeed...there are many other things that can attract people

to what we offer...many.

 

I believe that the members of the list are being honest...but obviously

a wide variety of experiences are reflected here. I believe that part of

the due diligence of someone looking to get into any field is to discuss

these things with as many people that are actually doing it as they can

find. Particularly those that graduated from the school they plan to

attend. Further, the various acupuncture organizations offer information

about the industry...for any list members that might be considering this

profession...

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:03:29 -0500, " Pete Theisen "

<petetheisen said:

> On Sunday 08 July 2007 19:20, stephen woodley wrote:

> <snip>

> > 50% in practice median income in California was under $35K.

>

> Hi Dr. Stephen!

>

> Can anyone live as an independent adult in California under $35K? I think

> you

> and the others have missed the fact that I only air these things when

> some

> prospective student asks about them.

>

> I think we have to be honest on the list about this issue, the schools

> will,

> uh, PUFF, the numbers.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different…

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 13:43, Petra Buchanan wrote:

> I have practiced in both Santa Cruz,CA and Telluride,

> CO and have made a living in both places. I agree with

> whoever said it is time to look at yourself

 

Hi Dr. Petra!

 

I have looked at myself. But my LOOKS should not be the issue. If you have to

be a looker to make it, this should be disclosed, before you obligate

yourself for the loans and put in your time. And how much time are we talking

about anyway?

 

I graduated in 1998, will I finally make a living in, say, 15 years? Or should

I give it 20?

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

FOA = Front Office Appeal

Even infants have been seen to respond to attractive people more than

plain...but I still assert that many great practitioners who are quite

successful don't have " it " . It need not be a huge barrier.

 

Sorry about the buzz word...

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:31:13 -0500, " Pete Theisen "

<petetheisen said:

> On Monday 09 July 2007 00:23, stephen woodley wrote:

> > HI Pete

> > It seems that I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be

> <snip>

> > The psychology of FOA

>

> Hi Dr. Stephen!

>

> No, you were not clear. What is " psychology of FOA " ?

>

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:01, Artemis Papert wrote:

> > I believe I would do better if I were A) young, B) female and C)

> > extremely good looking. (see my other post)

>

> I'm female, over 20, and refusing to work wearing a miniskirt.

 

Hi Dr. Artemis!

 

Good one, thanks. I dressed Heather in a lab coat, she was wearing something

quite modest underneath it and she still booked appointments like crazy. Oh,

yeah. She was over 25 at the time as well.

 

http://www.campfireprodigy.com/photos.html

 

She doesn't photograph well, but in person she is very striking. She also

plays, writes music and sings, country primarily.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:01, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist wrote:

 

> You don't need to be a sexy women

 

http://www.acuherbals.com/about/about.htm

 

Hi Dr. Bob!

 

Look at this picture of you and your four beautiful colleagues and say that

again with a straight face. You have it figured out, why don't you admit it?

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:28, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

<snip>

> Last year, I entered a doctoral program 20 years to the day from

> when I entered the masters program in TCM. There are 50 people in my

> class, with experience ranging from a couple of years to 20 years. I

> haven't heard anybody mention

 

Hi Dr. Bill!

 

Did you ASK? Never occurred to you did it? It just could be that you and they

are representative of the 20%.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 18:04, wrote:

<snip>

> In business, there are four things that can make or break you...

> 1. experience

> 2. capital

> 3. people skills

> 4. luck

>

> If you have any 3 of the above, you can make it.

 

Hi Dr. John!

 

Well, I certainly had no capital, little experience and I have never been

lucky. I think my people skills are average.

 

Whatever, I not only didn't make it, I lost nearly everything but my small

home and whatever I could have in it. I would have lost that were it not for

the Homestead protection laws.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 19:20, stephen woodley wrote:

<snip>

> 50% in practice median income in California was under $35K.

 

Hi Dr. Stephen!

 

Can anyone live as an independent adult in California under $35K? I think you

and the others have missed the fact that I only air these things when some

prospective student asks about them.

 

I think we have to be honest on the list about this issue, the schools will,

uh, PUFF, the numbers.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 22:18, mike Bowser wrote:

> I would like to add an interesting tidbit to this discussion on

> misrepresentation by the schools. I have now for the last several years

> been hearing some interesting misinformation from a program that I have

> regular contact with. What disturbs me is that the students are gullible

> and a promise of getting a doctorate degree in OM, when the school is

> nowhere close to offering one is a terrible thing. Likewise, I have spoken

> with a transfer student who came from another school who was told that

> radiology, labs and physical exams were a part of her TCM curricula. She

> transferred in and then found out later that was a lie. She has since left

> and considered moving to attend a CA school. What bothers me about this is

> that it does make our education appear very money oriented. I have no

> solutions but hope that others working for schools use their ethical

> judgement to uphold higher standards. Thanks for letting me share this

> opinion.

 

Hi Dr. Mike!

 

Sad to say, the vast, overwhelming majority of those associated with the

schools need every last penny the schools give them. They are sorely tempted

to consider the possibility of still another student being fleeced as " not

their problem " .

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Monday 09 July 2007 00:23, stephen woodley wrote:

> HI Pete

> It seems that I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be

<snip>

> The psychology of FOA

 

Hi Dr. Stephen!

 

No, you were not clear. What is " psychology of FOA " ?

 

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Monday 09 July 2007 00:39, stephen woodley wrote:

> FOA = Front Office Appeal

> Even infants have been seen to respond to attractive people more than

> plain...but I still assert that many great practitioners who are quite

> successful don't have " it " . It need not be a huge barrier.

 

Hi Sr Stephen!

 

Everyone I know who is in any way successful uses pretty girls, or is a pretty

girl. There may be some who do/are not, but I don't know them. Click the link

on that message I sent to Dr. Bob - him and his staff!

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

thanks Pete, but I;m not a sexy women and I am the one who does the public

speaking and health fairs and I am as busy as they are and guess what my

patients come back. All of my class is in practice some for themselves some

work for others...and guess what all of the two classes before me are in

successful practices as well. Please except the fact that YOU did not make it in

private practice and keep you bitterness over that experience to yourself.

Please don't cheapen it for the up and coming folks trying to make it. And btw

it is insulting to demean the extremely talented staff that I have working for

me to think patients only come to them because they are cute. They are there

because they are the most talented, dedicated practioneers that I could find in

the area and they stay there because I pay them well and I have a excellent

location.

Bob

www.acuherbals.com

 

Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:01, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist wrote:

 

> You don't need to be a sexy women

 

http://www.acuherbals.com/about/about.htm

 

Hi Dr. Bob!

 

Look at this picture of you and your four beautiful colleagues and say that

again with a straight face. You have it figured out, why don't you admit it?

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Building a website is a piece of cake.

Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Listmembers,

 

Please see Sicko, the new Michael Moore film about healthcare. The financial

binds that average people get into around medicine are at times disfiguring,

even mortal. I began to practice TCM on myself when I had no access to

expensive healthcare. Through meditation, tai chi, and herbs, I made it through

the 80's and 90's without ever visiting a physician. I naturally began to take

TCM more seriously and then came to the conclusion that it could be a career and

got involved in TCM schools.

 

The Moore film causes me to reflect that my involvement with TCM happened in

the social context of a dysfunctional medical delivery system. When I see

medicine in UK, France, and Cuba working for people's benefit, allowing doctors

to practice without irrational fears or irrational profits, it makes me re-think

much of what I have done with my medical training. Was I blaming western

medicine as a theoretical construct for faults in our public health

administration? Was I opposing the paranoid anti-socialized medicine faction of

the AMA by rejecting biomedicine as such? When I contracted loans to begin to

study TCM I was taking on that whole dysfunctional medical delivery system as a

personal responsibility, believing that even if the rest of medicine were

stymied in claim disputes and malpractice insurance, I could acquire in four

years of study the knowledge and skill to help others and earn a living myself

in TCM. All of us who study and practice TCM should bear in

mind that we have taken on the problem of our country's weird, fearful, and

selfish approach to medicine and that we should not expect to have clear and

easy business practices so long as people in this country are being crippled and

financially ruined by ill health and unworkable insurance coverage.

 

What kinds of choices we might have made under other circumstances is a

fruitful thought experiment. As it is, whether we have taken on more than we

can handle in trying to solve this difficult problem, we must decide for

ourselves. But at least there should be no shame involved, no guilt about

failing to thrive, for when a country does not follow the way, wealth and good

living are themselves shameful.

 

I do recommend the movie Sicko, it may be a healing experience for many.

 

Carl Ploss

 

 

 

 

 

 

Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.

Visit the Auto Green Center.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr Pete

 

 

 

My school made no misrepresentation in what they were offering. They were

there to get you your license. They wanted good scores on our boards so

their numbers looked good. That’s it! They also tried to screen us so they

were sure we were there because we wanted to be there. Aside from the cost

of time and money, no mention of salaries outside of school was ever

discussed. They assumed you knew what you were getting into before

enrolling.

 

 

 

Many of my classmates would slack off in clinic and a few of us would work

our really hard to get all we could out of it. I actually changed my clinic

hours to get times when student attendance was low to get greater exposure

to patients. I also studied and visited with other practitioners while in

school. I actually worked with a more experienced practitioner the first

year after I graduated. Some of my classmates complain that their education

at our school was horrible. They also did not attempt to learn outside of

what they were spoon fed. They memorized book facts with no understanding.

I got a fabulous education! We went to the same place and through our

classes together.

 

 

 

We are not children and for most of us, this is not our first career. You

get out of school what you put into it. You get out of life what you put

into it. It’s a universal law.

 

 

 

There are a lot of resources out there. The city where I live offers a

series of classes for small businesses to help them. I can go to them for

assistance in all types of problems including receiving a micro loan to help

me get my clinic started.

 

 

 

There is also the SBA, SCORE, the local colleges and vast amounts of

businesses there to help us. There are probably much more than that that I

haven’t found yet. Take advantage of these resources. You have to find them,

they won’t find you. If you are motivated to succeed, you will.

 

 

 

Lee Tritt, OMD, AP

 

321-961-6432

 

A little needling never hurt anyone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:19 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: Some informations about Traditional jobs

 

 

 

I would like to add an interesting tidbit to this discussion on

misrepresentation

by the schools. I have now for the last several years been hearing some

interesting misinformation from a program that I have regular contact with.

What disturbs me is that the students are gullible and a promise of getting

a doctorate degree in OM, when the school is nowhere close to offering one

is a terrible thing. Likewise, I have spoken with a transfer student who

came

from another school who was told that radiology, labs and physical exams

were a part of her TCM curricula. She transferred in and then found out

later

that was a lie. She has since left and considered moving to attend a CA

school.

What bothers me about this is that it does make our education appear very

money oriented. I have no solutions but hope that others working for schools

use their ethical judgement to uphold higher standards. Thanks for letting

me

share this opinion.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

____________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_________-_

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!

HYPERLINK

" http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink " http://clu

b.-live.com/-chicktionary.-aspx?icid=-chick_wlmailtext-link

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think Pete has a point, even though there are more complexities to it.

 

I used to manage my family's restaurant. When I hired 2 stunning and

friendly waitresses,

our business almost doubled.

Of course, our kitchen service was spectacular also.

It takes great management on the inside and the outside to have a successful

business.

People are biologically attracted to healthy people (men and women).

Beauty usually correlates with health and vice versa.

 

People will pay anything to have the happiness that comes from being healthy

and feeling beautiful inside and out.

To me, beauty is 80% personality and 20% appearance.

You can't just judge people from looking at a picture on a website.

(even though many do; but that doesn't mean that they'll keep coming back)

 

From a patient's view, Bob's staff in the picture looks happy and healthy,

including himself,

so why wouldn't someone spend their money to be that way too?

 

By the way, you feel better yourself when you surround yourself with happy,

" attractive " folks

and the probability is higher to keep those kind of people around when your

energy is also positive.

 

Yes, I think Bob " figured it out. "

 

 

 

On 7/9/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> thanks Pete, but I;m not a sexy women and I am the one who does the

> public speaking and health fairs and I am as busy as they are and guess what

> my patients come back. All of my class is in practice some for themselves

> some work for others...and guess what all of the two classes before me are

> in successful practices as well. Please except the fact that YOU did not

> make it in private practice and keep you bitterness over that experience to

> yourself. Please don't cheapen it for the up and coming folks trying to make

> it. And btw it is insulting to demean the extremely talented staff that I

> have working for me to think patients only come to them because they are

> cute. They are there because they are the most talented, dedicated

> practioneers that I could find in the area and they stay there because I pay

> them well and I have a excellent location.

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> Pete Theisen <petetheisen <petetheisen%40verizon.net>> wrote:

> On Sunday 08 July 2007 14:01, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist wrote:

>

> > You don't need to be a sexy women

>

> http://www.acuherbals.com/about/about.htm

>

> Hi Dr. Bob!

>

> Look at this picture of you and your four beautiful colleagues and say

> that

> again with a straight face. You have it figured out, why don't you admit

> it?

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

>

> Building a website is a piece of cake.

> Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Pete. I have been in practice for almost four

years. The first two put me ten thousand in dept. But

I was actually seeing a nice number of patients I was

just being and idiot as far as $ goes. I also have

Ninty one thousand in school loans ( again not such a

smart choice I should have become a massage therapist

or esthetician first and paid that way). Then I moved

to Colorado to work for a very successful

acupuncturist (who by the way is a guy who I don't

think is so good looking) who promised me the world

and turned out to be questionable. This little

adventure put me back another $5,000. So now I do not

own a house, owe $16000 on my credit cards and $91,000

in school loans and after a year out here I am doing

very well and am happy with where I am at. Yes I am

freaked out about the money I owe and question the

choices I made. But that is on me, I am not blaming

anyone else for the choices I made. I made my own

decisions. The loan officers where very emphatic about

me thinking very long and hard about what I was

getting into and at the time I blew it off thinking

that getting a practice going was going to be easy.

Again though I am happy with where I am I just know I

might take longer to get where I want to be than I

previously thought. I read your websight and suggest

you get someone else to do your marketing for you. I

don't think it is your looks, I have no clue as to

your talent, I do suspect that your bedside manner is

questionable and I do not think that has anything to

do with questionable schools. Also an aside I did go

to a very slimy school for a year which I thankfully

transfered from.

--- Pete Theisen <petetheisen wrote:

 

> On Sunday 08 July 2007 13:43, Petra Buchanan wrote:

> > I have practiced in both Santa Cruz,CA and

> Telluride,

> > CO and have made a living in both places. I agree

> with

> > whoever said it is time to look at yourself

>

> Hi Dr. Petra!

>

> I have looked at myself. But my LOOKS should not be

> the issue. If you have to

> be a looker to make it, this should be disclosed,

> before you obligate

> yourself for the loans and put in your time. And how

> much time are we talking

> about anyway?

>

> I graduated in 1998, will I finally make a living

> in, say, 15 years? Or should

> I give it 20?

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

 

 

 

 

______________________________\

____Ready for the edge of your seat?

Check out tonight's top picks on TV.

http://tv./

[Guest guest]

HI Pete

Well, I don't know what to say at this point...

I saw Bob's web site....good looking web site...happy people...this is a

way to attract people...I suspect that Bob's success isn't rooted in

only smiling faces

Obviously the first challenge in business is how to get clients

The second challenge (which may be more important) is how to keep

them...I don't know Bob...but I suspect from reading the web site and

postings over the last year that his success is from client retention,

successful treatment and positive demeanor...you can correct me if I'm

wrong Bob

 

You seem to have strong beliefs on this subject...your experiences may

have reinforced this belief...

this begs the question

 

WHY did you/do you not follow through on something you believe in so

strongly?

 

Why not hire an attractive/personable receptionist to interact with your

clients?

I am confused....if that is what you really believe

 

Seven years ago I worked with a successful woman...middle aged,

substantially overweight and not pretty...

She was great!!! She was skilled in her treatments and the way she

interacted with people was beautiful to behold...and very genuine!!! I

could see people shift as she greated them in the reception area!!!

 

Pete, here is my final word on this thread...

Only you know what has transpired in your life before now...BUT

you are carrying so much energy around these issues...right or wrong...

 

Is it serving you well to hold these feelings so strongly in your heart?

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:52:26 -0500, " Pete Theisen "

<petetheisen said:

> On Monday 09 July 2007 00:39, stephen woodley wrote:

> > FOA = Front Office Appeal

> > Even infants have been seen to respond to attractive people more than

> > plain...but I still assert that many great practitioners who are quite

> > successful don't have " it " . It need not be a huge barrier.

>

> Hi Sr Stephen!

>

> Everyone I know who is in any way successful uses pretty girls, or is a

> pretty

> girl. There may be some who do/are not, but I don't know them. Click the

> link

> on that message I sent to Dr. Bob - him and his staff!

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

[Guest guest]

John,

 

I'm in the program at Five Branches University in San Jose. The first

class that enrolled contained 35 students. The second class had 15

students, and they are starting to merge with our class whenever a

teacher is flown in from China. So far, there have been some truly

great classes and a few mediocre ones. I think that's to be expected

for a new program. The best teachers have been flown in from China the

past few months. This month and last month, we have had Juyi Wang, who

has been practicing for 45 years. He uses channel palpation as his

main daignostic tool. He will needle a point until the Qi travels all

the way down the channel. Uncomfortable in some cases, but very

effective. He also only speaks from his personal experience, which is

very useful. The students really like him.

 

Overall, the program has been very worthwhile. There are problems, of

course, but the great classes far outweigh them.

 

- Bill

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> Bill, which doctoral program are you attending?

>

[Guest guest]

On Monday 09 July 2007 05:56, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist wrote:

 

Hi Dr. Bob!

 

You prove everything I said about looks with the picture alone! You are nice

looking and your front office person is nice looking and three other women in

your office are nice looking. Oh, yeah, you have a good location and you all

know what you are doing. So wonderful that it is working out for you.

 

Come to think of it, I don't know any good looking people in any field who are

not at least moderately successful. What about the 80% who fail? Are they all

failing because of all the things that get said about me every time someone

asks this question and I reply truthfully?

 

> thanks Pete, but I;m not a sexy women

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/