Some informations about Traditional Chinese Medicine jobs

[Guest guest]

Pete,

 

I haven't personally seen any cases of fraud in California schools.

I did see it once in an east coast school and reported it. Fraud

implies an intentional plan to mislead people. I have seen overly

enthusiastic marketing claims and errors of omission out here, but

not fraud. I am a member of other web groups, and there are

definitely people like you who are upset that they didn't know the

financial realities of practicing TCM when they enrolled as

students. I think it is essential to get this information out to new

students, but I don't think progress will be made if we accuse

schools of committing fraud.

 

- Bill

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Saturday 07 July 2007 00:47, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

> <snip>

> > I don't know where you get the idea that I make that much money

in

> > teaching. I teach 7 - 10 hours per week in the Spring and Fall

> > semesters, and not at all in the Winter and Summer semesters. I

do

> > it for the joy of teaching, not for the money. I could make more

> > money by expanding my practice or writing, but I prefer a

> > combination of teaching, practicing, and doing research.

>

> Hi Dr. Bill!

>

> You did not say you were part time in your post. Our teachers were

full time

> although not at $40 per hour. If you are warning the students as

you say,

> then you are doing your part and my comments do not apply to you

personally.

>

> Now, you admit that you know there is a fraud going on, do you

not? After all,

> it has even hit the papers! Perhaps you are doing your part to

fight it, but

> you know it is there.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

[Guest guest]

I have practiced in both Santa Cruz,CA and Telluride,

CO and have made a living in both places. I agree with

whoever said it is time to look at yourself if you are

not succeding. I am not saying it has not been a long

hard road and that I do not sometimes wish I had

become a mechanic just that it has taken dicipline and

hard work. I have donated tons of hours to various

causes, I have advertized, I run a low cost clinic

once a week, I have gone out of my way to stay

positive, put myself out there, and be the best

practitioner possible and it is slowly paying off. I

also think that people see how much acupuncturists

make and think goldmine. I am definitely confused by

many of the people I see in acupuncture schools today.

I think many of them are in it for the money. As for

insurance you just have to learn how to play the game.

--- Bill Schoenbart <plantmed wrote:

 

> Pete,

>

> I haven't personally seen any cases of fraud in

> California schools.

> I did see it once in an east coast school and

> reported it. Fraud

> implies an intentional plan to mislead people. I

> have seen overly

> enthusiastic marketing claims and errors of omission

> out here, but

> not fraud. I am a member of other web groups, and

> there are

> definitely people like you who are upset that they

> didn't know the

> financial realities of practicing TCM when they

> enrolled as

> students. I think it is essential to get this

> information out to new

> students, but I don't think progress will be made if

> we accuse

> schools of committing fraud.

>

> - Bill

>

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> Pete Theisen

> <petetheisen wrote:

> >

> > On Saturday 07 July 2007 00:47, Bill Schoenbart

> wrote:

> > <snip>

> > > I don't know where you get the idea that I make

> that much money

> in

> > > teaching. I teach 7 - 10 hours per week in the

> Spring and Fall

> > > semesters, and not at all in the Winter and

> Summer semesters. I

> do

> > > it for the joy of teaching, not for the money. I

> could make more

> > > money by expanding my practice or writing, but I

> prefer a

> > > combination of teaching, practicing, and doing

> research.

> >

> > Hi Dr. Bill!

> >

> > You did not say you were part time in your post.

> Our teachers were

> full time

> > although not at $40 per hour. If you are warning

> the students as

> you say,

> > then you are doing your part and my comments do

> not apply to you

> personally.

> >

> > Now, you admit that you know there is a fraud

> going on, do you

> not? After all,

> > it has even hit the papers! Perhaps you are doing

> your part to

> fight it, but

> > you know it is there.

> > --

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > http://www.pete-theisen.com/

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> I believe I would do better if I were A) young, B) female and C) extremely

> good looking. (see my other post)

>

 

I'm female, over 20, and refusing to work wearing a miniskirt. And I still

believe that there must be enough people who care about their health and the

quality of the treatment they get more than about the looks of their

therapist.

 

Artemis

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:32, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

 

Hi Dr. Bill!

 

What would happen if every school that teaches TCM were to put a front page

day one disclaimer before each prospective student in a type face to fill the

whole page, and make sure they understand it, thus?

 

" The type of health care you can learn at this school can not be depended upon

to produce any sort of living wage for its practitioners. Insurance coverage

ranges from spotty to non-existant, medicare does NOT cover this at all and

the cash market is WAY over saturated. At least eighty percent of our

graduates can not make a living doing what we teach them to do. "

 

" We make our money from the money YOU pay us, not from patients. If you borrow

this money as a " Student Loan " you will have to pay it back even if you are

bankrupt or even disabled. It can even be deducted from your Social Security

checks if you retire before you pay it. "

 

Put that in front of every prospective student, have them sign it and give

them a copy and I will agree that the school is not practicing fraud. Fair?

 

> I haven't personally seen any cases of fraud in California schools.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Pete,

 

I see that you have had a hard time and you feel that you were

misled. I don't think your experience is universal, however.

 

Last year, I entered a doctoral program 20 years to the day from

when I entered the masters program in TCM. There are 50 people in my

class, with experience ranging from a couple of years to 20 years. I

haven't heard anybody mention better income as a motivator for

entering the program. Nobody feels deceived by their original

schools. So, at least out here, there are a lot of people who are

happy with their career and willing to spend more time and money on

classes to enhance their knowledge.

 

- Bill

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:32, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

>

> Hi Dr. Bill!

>

> What would happen if every school that teaches TCM were to put a

front page

> day one disclaimer before each prospective student in a type face

to fill the

> whole page, and make sure they understand it, thus?

>

> " The type of health care you can learn at this school can not be

depended upon

> to produce any sort of living wage for its practitioners.

Insurance coverage

> ranges from spotty to non-existant, medicare does NOT cover this

at all and

> the cash market is WAY over saturated. At least eighty percent of

our

> graduates can not make a living doing what we teach them to do. "

>

> " We make our money from the money YOU pay us, not from patients.

If you borrow

> this money as a " Student Loan " you will have to pay it back even

if you are

> bankrupt or even disabled. It can even be deducted from your

Social Security

> checks if you retire before you pay it. "

>

> Put that in front of every prospective student, have them sign it

and give

> them a copy and I will agree that the school is not practicing

fraud. Fair?

>

> > I haven't personally seen any cases of fraud in California

schools.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

[Guest guest]

Bill, which doctoral program are you attending?

 

I'm appreciating reading everyone's letters.

As someone who respects his teachers, because they teach for teaching sake

and because this art would not have survived past Shennong or Fu xi, without

teachers,

I also agree that teaching can be a very noble art,

especially when you instill inspiration into hearts.

 

The acupuncturists that I know who are financially successful, are there

because

1. they are really good at what they do and are decent human beings.

2. they know how to run a business

3. they have good helpers. (miniskirts not included)

4. they invite green energy with positive mind power.

5. they genuinely like being around people.

 

If you have at least 3 of these, then you'll probably not starve.

Actually the above list can be transferred to just about everything, not

just Chinese medicine.

# 4 and # 5 are freebies, 1-3 takes time, experience and some money.

 

My uncle, who is a taoist carpenter once told me:

In business, there are four things that can make or break you...

1. experience

2. capital

3. people skills

4. luck

 

If you have any 3 of the above, you can make it.

If you don't,

don't give up...

find someone who can teach you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/8/07, Bill Schoenbart <plantmed wrote:

>

> Pete,

>

> I see that you have had a hard time and you feel that you were

> misled. I don't think your experience is universal, however.

>

> Last year, I entered a doctoral program 20 years to the day from

> when I entered the masters program in TCM. There are 50 people in my

> class, with experience ranging from a couple of years to 20 years. I

> haven't heard anybody mention better income as a motivator for

> entering the program. Nobody feels deceived by their original

> schools. So, at least out here, there are a lot of people who are

> happy with their career and willing to spend more time and money on

> classes to enhance their knowledge.

>

> - Bill

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> Pete Theisen

> <petetheisen wrote:

> >

> > On Sunday 08 July 2007 12:32, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

> >

> > Hi Dr. Bill!

> >

> > What would happen if every school that teaches TCM were to put a

> front page

> > day one disclaimer before each prospective student in a type face

> to fill the

> > whole page, and make sure they understand it, thus?

> >

> > " The type of health care you can learn at this school can not be

> depended upon

> > to produce any sort of living wage for its practitioners.

> Insurance coverage

> > ranges from spotty to non-existant, medicare does NOT cover this

> at all and

> > the cash market is WAY over saturated. At least eighty percent of

> our

> > graduates can not make a living doing what we teach them to do. "

> >

> > " We make our money from the money YOU pay us, not from patients.

> If you borrow

> > this money as a " Student Loan " you will have to pay it back even

> if you are

> > bankrupt or even disabled. It can even be deducted from your

> Social Security

> > checks if you retire before you pay it. "

> >

> > Put that in front of every prospective student, have them sign it

> and give

> > them a copy and I will agree that the school is not practicing

> fraud. Fair?

> >

> > > I haven't personally seen any cases of fraud in California

> schools.

> > --

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > http://www.pete-theisen.com/

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

 

Well, Pete....again, I think everyone involved in this industry will

agree that there is plenty of room for improvement in the education.

 

As far as student loans...I am not surprised that the schools receive

compensation for the loans they open. I also am not offended.

 

I am a proponent of adults accepting responsibility for their actions.

If I have student loans, it is because I chose that path...someone

is/are making money off that. I will have to pay it all back, I owe that

money. I will pay back substantially more than the original loan due to

interest charges. I accept that.

 

I know it can be frustrating to receive that bill every month...even

when times are lean. I was not coerced into it.

 

I did not rely on the schools to " sell " me on a career in Chinese

medicine. I chose it on my own. I investigated the industry... it is an

industry with tremendous growth over the years I've been involved and I

only see more growth potential...huge growth potential. When I

investigated the industry in the early 90s, the numbers were: less than

50% in practice median income in California was under $35K. Which even

15 years ago wasn't considered much. I chose to go ahead.

 

I believe that most of us measure our success both in a decent living

and (even MORE) the personal growth and satisfaction we gain seeing

peoples lives transformed by this medicine. I am sure that you do, too.

 

This discussion can go on and on...and often does in TCM circles...IMO

this issue is the classic example of " multi-faceted "

Why do so few practice?

This is includes, but isn't limited to:

under capitalized business attempts, lack of business skills,

personalities more in tune with healing than business, many students

don't intend to get licensed and open a practice to begin with,

insufficient training can be included...the list could go on and on.

 

I sense a great amount of frustration in your postings and I

sympathize...it IS frustrating and draining to build a practice.

Remember, those in practice are pioneers...few Americans have any clear

idea what we do!!! This is IMO at the root of the industry's

struggles...

This is also at the root of the almost limitless growth potential that

our industry faces!!! It is tiring to promote the benefits of this

medicine over and over....but that's what we have to do.

 

this situation is just like the cliche sales story of the shoe rep that

goes to a country where nobody wears shoes....

There's no hope here...nobody wears shoes

This is the best chance ever...nobody wears shoes

 

Pete...just keep pushing your knowledge, skills and compassion and let

go of frustrations with schools and DirectLoans...it isn't worth the

energy

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 00:56:07 -0500, " Pete Theisen "

<petetheisen said:

> On Saturday 07 July 2007 17:37, stephen woodley wrote:

>

> Hi Stephen!

>

> At our school I think the hard sell was to get the student loan money

> kickback. I don't think any of the teachers or the director were involved

> in

> that - that was the financial aid person(s), but the teachers did tell us

> over and over again that we would make good money, be highly respected,

> not

> have to see that many patients to be well set, and on and on.

>

> I think our teachers believed it back then, but by now it has to be seen

> as,

> ahem, not being the case. Yet no student in his/her right mind is going

> to go

> through a course like this unless there is the promise of a good payoff

> at

> the end of all the hard work. For 80%, for heaven's sake, the payoff is

> not

> there. Not even close.

>

> There simply would not be enough naive or stupid students to support the

> schools if the truth were told to prospects, the schools have to lie to

> get

> the enrollment they want. In addition, it has been all over the news

> about

> the student loan kickbacks, surely you have seen this.

>

> Now, I think the teachers should make $80K if the students are going to

> get

> the opportunity they have to be promised to get them signed on in the

> first

> place. If they aren't making $80K what are they even saying to the

> students

> to make it look worthwhile? Yeah, what?

>

> > Now, now Pete

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different…

[Guest guest]

I would like to add an interesting tidbit to this discussion on

misrepresentation

by the schools. I have now for the last several years been hearing some

interesting misinformation from a program that I have regular contact with.

What disturbs me is that the students are gullible and a promise of getting

a doctorate degree in OM, when the school is nowhere close to offering one

is a terrible thing. Likewise, I have spoken with a transfer student who came

from another school who was told that radiology, labs and physical exams

were a part of her TCM curricula. She transferred in and then found out later

that was a lie. She has since left and considered moving to attend a CA school.

What bothers me about this is that it does make our education appear very

money oriented. I have no solutions but hope that others working for schools

use their ethical judgement to uphold higher standards. Thanks for letting me

share this opinion.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

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