Some informations about Traditional Chinese Medicine jobs

[Guest guest]

Hi everybody!

 

My name is Paulo, I'm brazilian currently studying Traditional

in Beijing. I

still have at least 2 more years here in Beijing until accomplish my course. I'm

already

undergraduated in Brazil as a traditional chinese doctor, and came to Beijing to

do the

hospital practices. I'm currently studying chinese language for chinese medicine

to enter in a

master degree course here.

 

When I complete my course here, I'd like to go to another country, but Brazil.

I'd like to know

if someone can give me some informations about jobs in my area, how is the

acceptance of

Traditional (not acupuncture), where I could look for job

before leaving

Beijing.

 

I apreciate your help!

Thanks,

Paulo

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 01 July 2007 03:47, paulomedchina wrote:

> Hi everybody!

>

> My name is Paulo, I'm brazilian currently studying Traditional Chinese

> Medicine in Beijing. I still have at least 2 more years here in Beijing

> until accomplish my course. I'm already undergraduated in Brazil as a

> traditional chinese doctor, and came to Beijing to do the hospital

> practices. I'm currently studying chinese language for chinese medicine to

> enter in a master degree course here.

>

> When I complete my course here, I'd like to go to another country, but

> Brazil.

 

Hi Paulo!

 

This comes up once a week. Forget Sarasota, Florida, that much I can tell you.

There are no acupuncture jobs in Sarasota, Florida. You have to set up your

own practice here. Perhaps it is different elsewhere.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Mr. Theisen,

 

With all due rspect, I find your posts to be slightly bleak these days....

 

I am in a socalled unfavorable business location: in a cellar, surrounded by

20-25 other acupuncturists (Chinese as well as Danish) and other alt. med.

therapist as well within a radius of about 10 miles. Most of them charge

less than me (charging the equivalent of 1.5 hourly salary before taxes),

but still I am getting business (1 treatment room only and I am making more

than a hospital MD - on the lookout to expand!) - not effortlessly, but hey

we are setting up businesses so we need to make marketing a priority. If

your business is going to make it you need to adopt the " prosperity

attitude " and do something about it - not sit on one's bum waiting for

patients to pick up a poorly crafted flyer at the local grocery store and

then call you - why should they?!

 

(Mr. Rank) I live in Denmark where Western Medical care is free, but alt med

is paid by patients themselves. They don't really care if they get value for

money. People here are so fed up with: " It is chronic; learn to live it,

here's a bottle of pills - call me when you run out! " People are ready to

move on and we have the opportunity to help them - we just need to make the

choice and the commitment - and you will be able to make a comfortable

living doing what you like them most!

 

The point is, Paulo, if you want to do it is completely 112% possible to

make it anywhere YOU WANT, but it takes commitment! If you make the choice

you don't have to wait around for years to break even - that is a myth!

However if you want to be you own boss you HAVE to learn marketing - no

(good) marketing, no business!!

 

Check out http://www.buildyourdreampractice.net/ for great tips and a

wonderful book on how to manage the businessside of your clinic, starting it

up and/or growing it to where you want it! The cool thing is that this book

has very practical and many free or extremely cost effecient suggestions on

how to get comfortable with marketing and how to prioritize!

 

I hope this was helpful, Paulo!

 

Best of luck,

 

Thomas Sorensen

 

--

Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin

Albanigade 23A, Kld.

5000 Odense C

Denmark

 

Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26

info

www.orientalskmedicin.dk

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. Theisen,

 

Point taken and aknowledged!

 

However often there are so many myths on why you can't make a decent

business out of CM! Most times it really depends on the business

entrepeur/the healer himself, since the demand/marked is there! It's how you

go around it! Most CM practioners emulate WM clinical settings processing

many patients at a time.... this is not what our patients are after most

times! Thinking out of the box will be very helpful and sometimes, if you

can prove that your services are better than the competition then it doesn't

matter... but you need to let everybody know that you are athere and you

have exactly what everybody wants! ...ask Donald Trump, Bill Gates a.s.o.

 

Kindly,

 

Thomas Sorensen

 

2007/7/3, Pete Theisen <petetheisen:

>

> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 01:31, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

> > Mr. Theisen,

> >

> > With all due rspect, I find your posts to be slightly bleak these

> days....

>

> With all do respect to you, Dr. Sørensen, the gentleman is contemplating

> putting a significant portion of his life and all of his money on the

> line.

> My experience is as relevant as yours in that context, I hope.

>

> If all he were facing were competition from " 20-25 " , he could do ok, but

> what

> if he comes to Sarasota and faces over a hundred others and a school with

> a

> cut-rate clinic? He might be best advised to go where he is the *only* one

> in

> town, 50 miles from the next town, and certainly no school.

> >

> > I am in a socalled unfavorable business location: in a cellar,

> surrounded

> > by 20-25 other acupuncturists

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

>

 

 

 

--

Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin

Albanigade 23A, Kld.

5000 Odense C

Denmark

 

Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26

info

www.orientalskmedicin.dk

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas, et al:

 

I just ordered the book building your dream practice from the website below.

It is very good. I especially like the purpose material. I have never seen it

presented that way before. It was powerful for me.

Lonnie Jarret endorsed Kevin Dougherty on our school site, so I checked out the

website below. I'm impressed.

 

Tomas, this whole topic is very loaded, charged and emotional. We have

addressed it many times here. I have an MBA (from back in the day) and learned

how to run General Motors, but this doesn't often translate into a small

business that is so personal and about bringing healing to the world. If I were

selling ice cream cones, there would be a lot less emotion attached (for me).

 

However, I agree with Thomas, that being commited, overcoming fears, knowing why

your doing this, not being afraid to ask for compensation, not overworking

yourself, good marketing, good referrals and contacts, all can bring this into

line.

 

Being in saturated markets can be a challenge and if you are clear that your

healing is bringing something very unique to people (and they often say

specialize in these markets), that will be communicated.

Columbia MD where I went to school (don't live there) has hundreds of

acupuncturists. My own practitioner is always busy, no insurance. One of my

class mates (who lives in Columbia, MD) that was struggling at first, found an

area she liked - fertility and women's health, started working in an OB-GYN

office (in a separate holistic side of the office) and she is doing great.

 

With all that said, I really believe some people don't want to be in business

for themselves. Then I would say work as a contractor or employee for an

acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or work for a hospital or anothe

organization that is assuming all this overhead.

 

Anne

 

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" Thomas Sørensen " <aikinohari

> Mr. Theisen,

>

> With all due rspect, I find your posts to be slightly bleak these days....

>

> I am in a socalled unfavorable business location: in a cellar, surrounded by

> 20-25 other acupuncturists (Chinese as well as Danish) and other alt. med.

> therapist as well within a radius of about 10 miles. Most of them charge

> less than me (charging the equivalent of 1.5 hourly salary before taxes),

> but still I am getting business (1 treatment room only and I am making more

> than a hospital MD - on the lookout to expand!) - not effortlessly, but hey

> we are setting up businesses so we need to make marketing a priority. If

> your business is going to make it you need to adopt the " prosperity

> attitude " and do something about it - not sit on one's bum waiting for

> patients to pick up a poorly crafted flyer at the local grocery store and

> then call you - why should they?!

>

> (Mr. Rank) I live in Denmark where Western Medical care is free, but alt med

> is paid by patients themselves. They don't really care if they get value for

> money. People here are so fed up with: " It is chronic; learn to live it,

> here's a bottle of pills - call me when you run out! " People are ready to

> move on and we have the opportunity to help them - we just need to make the

> choice and the commitment - and you will be able to make a comfortable

> living doing what you like them most!

>

> The point is, Paulo, if you want to do it is completely 112% possible to

> make it anywhere YOU WANT, but it takes commitment! If you make the choice

> you don't have to wait around for years to break even - that is a myth!

> However if you want to be you own boss you HAVE to learn marketing - no

> (good) marketing, no business!!

>

> Check out http://www.buildyourdreampractice.net/ for great tips and a

> wonderful book on how to manage the businessside of your clinic, starting it

> up and/or growing it to where you want it! The cool thing is that this book

> has very practical and many free or extremely cost effecient suggestions on

> how to get comfortable with marketing and how to prioritize!

>

> I hope this was helpful, Paulo!

>

> Best of luck,

>

> Thomas Sorensen

>

> --

> Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin

> Albanigade 23A, Kld.

> 5000 Odense C

> Denmark

>

> Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26

> info

> www.orientalskmedicin.dk

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Theisen,

 

You described your misfortune in running a CM practice ealier on this forum

and I am sorry that had to go through all this!

 

But, please, anyone with an interest to run a succesful CM clinic or other

medical pratice get a hold of a copy of " Build Your Dream Practice " at

http://www.buildyourdreampractice.net/ it is internationally valid and

inexepensive, but invaluable! ....No I am not affiliated, so, please, do not

take this as advertising, just a helping hand to those who are starting up a

clinic or are in need of quick, retainable growth!

 

Just for sake of formality: I am not an MD or Ph.D. so, please, just refer

to me as Thomas

 

Kindly,

 

Thomas Sorensen

 

 

2007/7/3, Pete Theisen <petetheisen:

>

> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 07:26, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

> >if you can prove that your services are better than the

> > competition then it doesn't matter... but you need to let everybody know

>

> Hi Dr. Sørensen!

>

> Letting everybody know is the expensive part. AFTER I had stupidly

> invested my

> life savings and mortgaged my home in this vain quest, I attended a

> seminar

> where it was pointed out that you have to spend $750 USD, in marketing

> alone,

> to attract a patient who will pay you $250 and have no further need of

> you!

> This is not sustainable at all, even if your ONLY investment was

> marketing!

>

> If you are going to try TCM practice, you have to have a lot of other

> income

> in the household, and you can't spend anything on TCM that you can't

> afford

> to consider a loss. After years of doing this the word of mouth and your

> years of tenacity will finally build your practice. But this is after

> years.

>

> Exceptions are for people who are in some way magnetic personalities, of

> course. If you KNOW that people fall at your feet then you can go on TV

> and

> tell people to come to your clinic and they will.

>

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin

Albanigade 23A, Kld.

5000 Odense C

Denmark

 

Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26

info

www.orientalskmedicin.dk

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 01:31, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

> Mr. Theisen,

>

> With all due rspect, I find your posts to be slightly bleak these days....

 

With all do respect to you, Dr. Sørensen, the gentleman is contemplating

putting a significant portion of his life and all of his money on the line.

My experience is as relevant as yours in that context, I hope.

 

If all he were facing were competition from " 20-25 " , he could do ok, but what

if he comes to Sarasota and faces over a hundred others and a school with a

cut-rate clinic? He might be best advised to go where he is the *only* one in

town, 50 miles from the next town, and certainly no school.

>

> I am in a socalled unfavorable business location: in a cellar, surrounded

> by 20-25 other acupuncturists

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 07:26, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

>if you can prove that your services are better than the

> competition then it doesn't matter... but you need to let everybody know

 

Hi Dr. Sørensen!

 

Letting everybody know is the expensive part. AFTER I had stupidly invested my

life savings and mortgaged my home in this vain quest, I attended a seminar

where it was pointed out that you have to spend $750 USD, in marketing alone,

to attract a patient who will pay you $250 and have no further need of you!

This is not sustainable at all, even if your ONLY investment was marketing!

 

If you are going to try TCM practice, you have to have a lot of other income

in the household, and you can't spend anything on TCM that you can't afford

to consider a loss. After years of doing this the word of mouth and your

years of tenacity will finally build your practice. But this is after years.

 

Exceptions are for people who are in some way magnetic personalities, of

course. If you KNOW that people fall at your feet then you can go on TV and

tell people to come to your clinic and they will.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:11, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

> But, please, anyone with an interest to run a succesful CM clinic or other

> medical pratice get a hold of a copy of " Build Your Dream Practice " at

> http://www.buildyourdreampractice.net/ it is internationally valid and

> inexepensive, but invaluable!

 

Hi Thomas!

 

This is the best advice we can give to Paulo: Read all the " free " advice, but

don't spend any money on any of this stuff. See all the patients you can, in

their homes or your home but don't set up an office. If the patient needs

medicine, buy only what you need and mark it up a LOT. Promote all you can,

but don't spend any great deal of money on that either and finally, at $150

per hour, " coach " other acupuncturists on how to promote their practices.

Priceless!

 

This is where the real money is in our profession, teaching others to do what

we are trying to do.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:02, anne.crowley wrote:

<snip>

> With all that said, I really believe some people don't want to be in

> business for themselves. Then I would say work as a contractor or employee

> for an acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or work for a

> hospital or anothe organization that is assuming all this overhead.

 

Hi Dr. Anne!

 

You have touched on perhaps the biggest part of the problem. There is SO much

money in education, borrowed money, that the field attracts many slightly

dishonest people who want to suck down that student loan money. I think even

today the schools are implying that the students will be able to graduate and

get JOBS when in reality there are NO, or nearly no, jobs to be had.

 

The schools and teachers just want to get that student loan cash flowing in,

never mind that 80% of the graduates never practice and of those who do

practice something on the order of 90% lose money for years even if they

don't out-and-out fail.

 

The people who so vehemently object to this being honestly discussed? Usually

they are a part of the school gravy train.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

With all due respect, I feel the need to interject a reality check

for the benefit of those monitoring this list who are in the process

of training for what they hope will be their career. Certainly many

of you who are successful in practice have been simply hitting the

delete button on this thread, unwilling to read the bitter writings

of those who haven't reached that level. I suggest instead that you

simply " speak-up " and briefly outline your own successful experience

so that others may learn or at least be inspired.

 

Training for " acupuncture " like " massage " attracts many who have

found life-changing help for their own health issues thru " natural "

means. It is not hard to understand someone who has experienced

dramatic (or even mundane) turnaround in their life wanting to share

that experience with others who could benefit from the same. The

reality of private practice is often way more work than they expected.

 

The biggest problem is that there is no one who has a vested interest

in seeing these people succeed after they have been trained.

 

MDs would have the same problem if there were not hospitals that

needed laborers, and if there were not gargantuan pharmaceutical

companies that needed pushers for their products. Alas, there are.

 

The only people who benefit from those who practice chinese medicine

(well) in the U.S.A. are the clients who are helped by those

practitioners, their loved ones, and others directly linked. No big

businesses profit from the practice other than those who supply what

that practitioner needs, those who train the next generation inspired

by those who went before, and those who make their living consulting

those practitioners. The suppliers and consultants actually have an

interest in seeing those practitioners who are their customers

succeed (obviously because if the practitioner fails, they stop

buying goods and or services). The schools really don't care that

much either way.

 

I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The one

I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " . If

you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who can

are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a very

few students at a time. Other issues such as standardization and

quality assurance make the apprentice system troublesome in terms of

reliability. And then there is the issue of credentialing, usually

administered by those who came first. The obvious exceptions are

those masters who find time to share their expertise with many in

brief encounters such as weekend training seminars on specific,

limited topics.

 

School is a great place to learn basics, and most academic-based

mentors and role models are great if you want to be an academic.

Most schools courses in things like " Practice Essentials " are quite

frankly jokes. I have experienced the practice methods of several

excellent professors, well respected in the field, authors of

excellent books on the subject--able to treat only one person at a

time, an hour each, maybe 4 or 5 people on a good day when their

class schedule doesn't interfere if they can get that many bookings.

Effective? Maybe. Successful? Perhaps, but mostly as professors

not as practitioners. Atempting to emulate this model while paying

rent on a space plus providing food and shelter for self (let alone

dependents)? Disaster. Having money leftover for promotions or

marketing to attract more people? Ha!

 

At this time, our profession is not really suited for those who want

a job in the classic sense where you work for someone else who

parentally protects you from the realities of the marketplace and

accepts the risks of being in business while you simply punch the

clock, insert needles, and collect a paycheck. If this is what you

want, forget this profession and most forms of natural health care.

 

There are PLENTY of ways to succeed in this field, and plenty of

example of those who do/have. Certainly there are also many

definitions of success. We measure ours based on how many lives

truly change thru our efforts: How many kids we are able to keep off

Ritalin, off steroids; how many mothers can get off their

antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs so that they can deal with

REALITY and raise their kids without the pharmaceutical haze; how

many people are able to avoid unneccessary surgeries and keep the

organs they were born with; how many people learn how to live to

avoid damaging their bodies, how many people can turn their lives

around and find peace and purpose thru health and happiness.

 

Did you study and work hard for nearly a decade struggling to

understand and assimilate 5000 years of evidence in

just to be a substitute for pain pills? Do you let people continue

to believe that it is right to demand correction for what is wrong

with our automobiles while accepting that nothing more than relief is

possible for our bodies?

 

The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not heal

anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's ability

to heal.

 

Proper thinking is the most important action one can do to stay

healthy (above proper breathing, proper hydration, proper nutrition,

and proper movement). Get yourself healthy first, then practice the

big five (above, all start with " proper " ), then decide how you want

to change your world, create a plan and follow it. Never

underestimate the power of intention, and don't be afraid to work

hard for your goals. Seek help from those who have succeeded before

you so that you are not forced to reinvent the wheel. Educate those

you encounter on how the body works and how what you DO can get and

keep them healthy. The more they understand and the healthier they

become, the more they will share their knowlege with others and thus

fill your practice with referrals. Become recognized in your

community as an expert by contributing articles on health to your

local newspaper and by lecturing in the community on health topics of

general interest (digestive issues, natural means of resolving pain,

balancing hormones, etc.). Network with MDs & DOs and simply ask

them to send you their incurables (what do either have to lose?).

Maybe have the foresight to avoid an oversaturated area with low- (or

no-)cost relief care available at a school that neither understands

nor practices the full potential of this marvelous health-restoring

ancient " medical " system.

 

I wish you ALL success on your own terms, and goodnight.

 

Mark Zaranski

East Wind Acupuncture, Inc

www.ewacupuncture.com

 

Oh yeah, our plans are to open two additional clinics (about two

years down the road) where we will have opportunities for a few more

acupuncturists with good hands and good skills who aren't interested

in thier own business...We will be needing one more associate

acupuncturist for our existing clinic sometime in the winter (if

things continue growing as they are) who will needle on Fridays and

Saturdays. I'll post our needs as they arise.

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:02, anne.crowley wrote:

> <snip>

> > With all that said, I really believe some people don't want to be

in

> > business for themselves. Then I would say work as a contractor

or employee

> > for an acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or work

for a

> > hospital or anothe organization that is assuming all this

overhead.

>

> Hi Dr. Anne!

>

> You have touched on perhaps the biggest part of the problem. There

is SO much

> money in education, borrowed money, that the field attracts many

slightly

> dishonest people who want to suck down that student loan money. I

think even

> today the schools are implying that the students will be able to

graduate and

> get JOBS when in reality there are NO, or nearly no, jobs to be had.

>

> The schools and teachers just want to get that student loan cash

flowing in,

> never mind that 80% of the graduates never practice and of those

who do

> practice something on the order of 90% lose money for years even if

they

> don't out-and-out fail.

>

> The people who so vehemently object to this being honestly

discussed? Usually

> they are a part of the school gravy train.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

[Guest guest]

The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not heal

anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's ability

to heal.

>>>>>>

This idea is not really part of CM. Early intervention is advocated in CM. You

are mixing paradigms

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

zedbowls

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:03 PM

Re: Some informations about Traditional jobs

 

 

With all due respect, I feel the need to interject a reality check

for the benefit of those monitoring this list who are in the process

of training for what they hope will be their career. Certainly many

of you who are successful in practice have been simply hitting the

delete button on this thread, unwilling to read the bitter writings

of those who haven't reached that level. I suggest instead that you

simply " speak-up " and briefly outline your own successful experience

so that others may learn or at least be inspired.

 

Training for " acupuncture " like " massage " attracts many who have

found life-changing help for their own health issues thru " natural "

means. It is not hard to understand someone who has experienced

dramatic (or even mundane) turnaround in their life wanting to share

that experience with others who could benefit from the same. The

reality of private practice is often way more work than they expected.

 

The biggest problem is that there is no one who has a vested interest

in seeing these people succeed after they have been trained.

 

MDs would have the same problem if there were not hospitals that

needed laborers, and if there were not gargantuan pharmaceutical

companies that needed pushers for their products. Alas, there are.

 

The only people who benefit from those who practice chinese medicine

(well) in the U.S.A. are the clients who are helped by those

practitioners, their loved ones, and others directly linked. No big

businesses profit from the practice other than those who supply what

that practitioner needs, those who train the next generation inspired

by those who went before, and those who make their living consulting

those practitioners. The suppliers and consultants actually have an

interest in seeing those practitioners who are their customers

succeed (obviously because if the practitioner fails, they stop

buying goods and or services). The schools really don't care that

much either way.

 

I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The one

I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " . If

you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who can

are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a very

few students at a time. Other issues such as standardization and

quality assurance make the apprentice system troublesome in terms of

reliability. And then there is the issue of credentialing, usually

administered by those who came first. The obvious exceptions are

those masters who find time to share their expertise with many in

brief encounters such as weekend training seminars on specific,

limited topics.

 

School is a great place to learn basics, and most academic-based

mentors and role models are great if you want to be an academic.

Most schools courses in things like " Practice Essentials " are quite

frankly jokes. I have experienced the practice methods of several

excellent professors, well respected in the field, authors of

excellent books on the subject--able to treat only one person at a

time, an hour each, maybe 4 or 5 people on a good day when their

class schedule doesn't interfere if they can get that many bookings.

Effective? Maybe. Successful? Perhaps, but mostly as professors

not as practitioners. Atempting to emulate this model while paying

rent on a space plus providing food and shelter for self (let alone

dependents)? Disaster. Having money leftover for promotions or

marketing to attract more people? Ha!

 

At this time, our profession is not really suited for those who want

a job in the classic sense where you work for someone else who

parentally protects you from the realities of the marketplace and

accepts the risks of being in business while you simply punch the

clock, insert needles, and collect a paycheck. If this is what you

want, forget this profession and most forms of natural health care.

 

There are PLENTY of ways to succeed in this field, and plenty of

example of those who do/have. Certainly there are also many

definitions of success. We measure ours based on how many lives

truly change thru our efforts: How many kids we are able to keep off

Ritalin, off steroids; how many mothers can get off their

antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs so that they can deal with

REALITY and raise their kids without the pharmaceutical haze; how

many people are able to avoid unneccessary surgeries and keep the

organs they were born with; how many people learn how to live to

avoid damaging their bodies, how many people can turn their lives

around and find peace and purpose thru health and happiness.

 

Did you study and work hard for nearly a decade struggling to

understand and assimilate 5000 years of evidence in

just to be a substitute for pain pills? Do you let people continue

to believe that it is right to demand correction for what is wrong

with our automobiles while accepting that nothing more than relief is

possible for our bodies?

 

The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not heal

anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's ability

to heal.

 

Proper thinking is the most important action one can do to stay

healthy (above proper breathing, proper hydration, proper nutrition,

and proper movement). Get yourself healthy first, then practice the

big five (above, all start with " proper " ), then decide how you want

to change your world, create a plan and follow it. Never

underestimate the power of intention, and don't be afraid to work

hard for your goals. Seek help from those who have succeeded before

you so that you are not forced to reinvent the wheel. Educate those

you encounter on how the body works and how what you DO can get and

keep them healthy. The more they understand and the healthier they

become, the more they will share their knowlege with others and thus

fill your practice with referrals. Become recognized in your

community as an expert by contributing articles on health to your

local newspaper and by lecturing in the community on health topics of

general interest (digestive issues, natural means of resolving pain,

balancing hormones, etc.). Network with MDs & DOs and simply ask

them to send you their incurables (what do either have to lose?).

Maybe have the foresight to avoid an oversaturated area with low- (or

no-)cost relief care available at a school that neither understands

nor practices the full potential of this marvelous health-restoring

ancient " medical " system.

 

I wish you ALL success on your own terms, and goodnight.

 

Mark Zaranski

East Wind Acupuncture, Inc

www.ewacupuncture.com

 

Oh yeah, our plans are to open two additional clinics (about two

years down the road) where we will have opportunities for a few more

acupuncturists with good hands and good skills who aren't interested

in thier own business...We will be needing one more associate

acupuncturist for our existing clinic sometime in the winter (if

things continue growing as they are) who will needle on Fridays and

Saturdays. I'll post our needs as they arise.

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:02, anne.crowley wrote:

> <snip>

> > With all that said, I really believe some people don't want to be

in

> > business for themselves. Then I would say work as a contractor

or employee

> > for an acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or work

for a

> > hospital or anothe organization that is assuming all this

overhead.

>

> Hi Dr. Anne!

>

> You have touched on perhaps the biggest part of the problem. There

is SO much

> money in education, borrowed money, that the field attracts many

slightly

> dishonest people who want to suck down that student loan money. I

think even

> today the schools are implying that the students will be able to

graduate and

> get JOBS when in reality there are NO, or nearly no, jobs to be had.

>

> The schools and teachers just want to get that student loan cash

flowing in,

> never mind that 80% of the graduates never practice and of those

who do

> practice something on the order of 90% lose money for years even if

they

> don't out-and-out fail.

>

> The people who so vehemently object to this being honestly

discussed? Usually

> they are a part of the school gravy train.

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because I

can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will have

long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do it

because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike it

rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive statement

with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no intention to

hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common sayings

can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain stupidity.

Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should repeat them.

Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that way

about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

 

- Bill

 

> I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

> some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The one

> I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " . If

> you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who can

> are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

> apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a very

> few students at a time.

[Guest guest]

one portion of my previous post appears here

>

> The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

> unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not heal

> anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's

ability

> to heal.

> >>>>>>

 

To which " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus responded:

> This idea is not really part of CM. Early intervention is advocated

in CM. You are mixing paradigms

 

 

Dr. Marcus:

Thank you for your insight, and please pardon our straying from the

ideal. Please let me explain.

 

We practice in Indiana, in the heartland where people have had little

exposure to alternative medicine concepts and virtually no exposure

(other than the Oprah Show) to Chinese medicine.

 

We treat 6 - 10 new clients every week who have never before seen an

acupuncturist...people who come to us as a " last resort " after having

exhausted (or at least after becoming exhausted with) their western

medical options. We draw clients from a 75 mile radius (3 sigma).

 

Most (at least 80%) of these new clients arrive with their health in

RUIN.

 

While we would love to limit our practice to early intervention and

health optimization, we find these are not particularly effective

with these nes clients. Health restoration is what they need.

 

Once people have been thru a customized health restoration plan which

includes quite a bit of education we can then help keep them healthy

thru regular (2x, 3x, 4x, or 6x/year depending on the underlying

strength of their constitution) visits that include check-up/tune-up

while they concentrate on proper movement, proper nutrition, proper

hydration, proper breathing, and proper thinking.

 

Once we have accomplished our larger goal of converting our entire

region to using chinese medicine as their first choice in caring for

their health, we should have no trouble practicing solely as you

suggest we should in keeping with the traditions of CM.

 

Respectfully,

Mark Zaranski

EWA, Chesterton, Indiana

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

> zedbowls

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:03 PM

> Re: Some informations about Traditional Chinese

Medicine jobs

>

>

> With all due respect, I feel the need to interject a reality

check

> for the benefit of those monitoring this list who are in the

process

> of training for what they hope will be their career. Certainly

many

> of you who are successful in practice have been simply hitting

the

> delete button on this thread, unwilling to read the bitter

writings

> of those who haven't reached that level. I suggest instead that

you

> simply " speak-up " and briefly outline your own successful

experience

> so that others may learn or at least be inspired.

>

> Training for " acupuncture " like " massage " attracts many who have

> found life-changing help for their own health issues

thru " natural "

> means. It is not hard to understand someone who has experienced

> dramatic (or even mundane) turnaround in their life wanting to

share

> that experience with others who could benefit from the same. The

> reality of private practice is often way more work than they

expected.

>

> The biggest problem is that there is no one who has a vested

interest

> in seeing these people succeed after they have been trained.

>

> MDs would have the same problem if there were not hospitals that

> needed laborers, and if there were not gargantuan pharmaceutical

> companies that needed pushers for their products. Alas, there are.

>

> The only people who benefit from those who practice chinese

medicine

> (well) in the U.S.A. are the clients who are helped by those

> practitioners, their loved ones, and others directly linked. No

big

> businesses profit from the practice other than those who supply

what

> that practitioner needs, those who train the next generation

inspired

> by those who went before, and those who make their living

consulting

> those practitioners. The suppliers and consultants actually have

an

> interest in seeing those practitioners who are their customers

> succeed (obviously because if the practitioner fails, they stop

> buying goods and or services). The schools really don't care that

> much either way.

>

> I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

> some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The

one

> I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " .

If

> you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who

can

> are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

> apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

very

> few students at a time. Other issues such as standardization and

> quality assurance make the apprentice system troublesome in terms

of

> reliability. And then there is the issue of credentialing,

usually

> administered by those who came first. The obvious exceptions are

> those masters who find time to share their expertise with many in

> brief encounters such as weekend training seminars on specific,

> limited topics.

>

> School is a great place to learn basics, and most academic-based

> mentors and role models are great if you want to be an academic.

> Most schools courses in things like " Practice Essentials " are

quite

> frankly jokes. I have experienced the practice methods of several

> excellent professors, well respected in the field, authors of

> excellent books on the subject--able to treat only one person at

a

> time, an hour each, maybe 4 or 5 people on a good day when their

> class schedule doesn't interfere if they can get that many

bookings.

> Effective? Maybe. Successful? Perhaps, but mostly as professors

> not as practitioners. Atempting to emulate this model while

paying

> rent on a space plus providing food and shelter for self (let

alone

> dependents)? Disaster. Having money leftover for promotions or

> marketing to attract more people? Ha!

>

> At this time, our profession is not really suited for those who

want

> a job in the classic sense where you work for someone else who

> parentally protects you from the realities of the marketplace and

> accepts the risks of being in business while you simply punch the

> clock, insert needles, and collect a paycheck. If this is what

you

> want, forget this profession and most forms of natural health

care.

>

> There are PLENTY of ways to succeed in this field, and plenty of

> example of those who do/have. Certainly there are also many

> definitions of success. We measure ours based on how many lives

> truly change thru our efforts: How many kids we are able to keep

off

> Ritalin, off steroids; how many mothers can get off their

> antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs so that they can deal with

> REALITY and raise their kids without the pharmaceutical haze; how

> many people are able to avoid unneccessary surgeries and keep the

> organs they were born with; how many people learn how to live to

> avoid damaging their bodies, how many people can turn their lives

> around and find peace and purpose thru health and happiness.

>

> Did you study and work hard for nearly a decade struggling to

> understand and assimilate 5000 years of evidence in Chinese

Medicine

> just to be a substitute for pain pills? Do you let people

continue

> to believe that it is right to demand correction for what is

wrong

> with our automobiles while accepting that nothing more than

relief is

> possible for our bodies?

>

> The human body is designed to fix itself. Our job is simply to

> unlock that healing ability thru restoring " health " . We do not

heal

> anyone at our clinic, we simply restore or unlock the body's

ability

> to heal.

>

> Proper thinking is the most important action one can do to stay

> healthy (above proper breathing, proper hydration, proper

nutrition,

> and proper movement). Get yourself healthy first, then practice

the

> big five (above, all start with " proper " ), then decide how you

want

> to change your world, create a plan and follow it. Never

> underestimate the power of intention, and don't be afraid to work

> hard for your goals. Seek help from those who have succeeded

before

> you so that you are not forced to reinvent the wheel. Educate

those

> you encounter on how the body works and how what you DO can get

and

> keep them healthy. The more they understand and the healthier

they

> become, the more they will share their knowlege with others and

thus

> fill your practice with referrals. Become recognized in your

> community as an expert by contributing articles on health to your

> local newspaper and by lecturing in the community on health

topics of

> general interest (digestive issues, natural means of resolving

pain,

> balancing hormones, etc.). Network with MDs & DOs and simply ask

> them to send you their incurables (what do either have to lose?).

> Maybe have the foresight to avoid an oversaturated area with low-

(or

> no-)cost relief care available at a school that neither

understands

> nor practices the full potential of this marvelous health-

restoring

> ancient " medical " system.

>

> I wish you ALL success on your own terms, and goodnight.

>

> Mark Zaranski

> East Wind Acupuncture, Inc

> www.ewacupuncture.com

>

> Oh yeah, our plans are to open two additional clinics (about two

> years down the road) where we will have opportunities for a few

more

> acupuncturists with good hands and good skills who aren't

interested

> in thier own business...We will be needing one more associate

> acupuncturist for our existing clinic sometime in the winter (if

> things continue growing as they are) who will needle on Fridays

and

> Saturdays. I'll post our needs as they arise.

>

> Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

> <petetheisen@> wrote:

> >

> > On Tuesday 03 July 2007 08:02, anne.crowley@ wrote:

> > <snip>

> > > With all that said, I really believe some people don't want

to be

> in

> > > business for themselves. Then I would say work as a

contractor

> or employee

> > > for an acupuncturist willing to do all this marketing, or

work

> for a

> > > hospital or anothe organization that is assuming all this

> overhead.

> >

> > Hi Dr. Anne!

> >

> > You have touched on perhaps the biggest part of the problem.

There

> is SO much

> > money in education, borrowed money, that the field attracts

many

> slightly

> > dishonest people who want to suck down that student loan money.

I

> think even

> > today the schools are implying that the students will be able

to

> graduate and

> > get JOBS when in reality there are NO, or nearly no, jobs to be

had.

> >

> > The schools and teachers just want to get that student loan

cash

> flowing in,

> > never mind that 80% of the graduates never practice and of

those

> who do

> > practice something on the order of 90% lose money for years

even if

> they

> > don't out-and-out fail.

> >

> > The people who so vehemently object to this being honestly

> discussed? Usually

> > they are a part of the school gravy train.

> > --

> > Regards,

> >

> > Pete

> > http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

[Guest guest]

On Friday 06 July 2007 01:08, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

 

Hi Dr. Bill!

 

If you are making $80K + per year teaching, you are past the level where any

understanding of those in need is easy or perhaps even possible. Be thankful,

to begin with, and refrain from criticizing those, uh, " below " you. Above

all, it is very inappropriate for you to be thin-skinned.

 

The fact of the matter is, higher education cannot be sold without the

implicit promise that it will lead to a good income with clean, easy and

pleasant work. In this, TCM education at least approaches fraud. You don't

need me to tell you this, any number of others have said it, again and again,

on this list and in other forums.

 

> I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because I

> can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will have

> long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do it

> because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike it

> rich at 40 dollars per hour

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Pete,

 

I don't see anyone as " below " me, but I can't sit back and watch

teachers in general get attacked without responding. I am very

dedicated to teaching, and I take it to be a very serious

responsibility, on par with practicing medicine.

 

You obviously have had some bad experiences, but you shouldn't

generalize them to an entire group of people. You seem to have the

idea that teachers are part of some kind of scam to separate

students from their money. I share your concern that the realities

of practicing aren't completely conveyed to prospective students. I

see students in their very first semester, and I always warn them

that it is a difficult profession that requires business skills. I

encourage them to start thinking about a business plan and to find a

place that is not ridiculously over-saturated to have a better

chance of success. But I do warn them of the realities of

practicing. I also regularly confront the school's marketing person

about making unrealistic claims in their ads.

 

 

I don't know where you get the idea that I make that much money in

teaching. I teach 7 - 10 hours per week in the Spring and Fall

semesters, and not at all in the Winter and Summer semesters. I do

it for the joy of teaching, not for the money. I could make more

money by expanding my practice or writing, but I prefer a

combination of teaching, practicing, and doing research.

 

I still see my teachers from 20 years ago. I feel very grateful that

they taught me this incredible medicine. Sure, I struggled to make a

living after I got out of school, but I never felt like my teachers

were part of a fraud. That kind of thinking will tear away at your

heart.

 

- Bill

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petetheisen wrote:

>

> On Friday 06 July 2007 01:08, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

>

> Hi Dr. Bill!

>

> If you are making $80K + per year teaching, you are past the level

where any

> understanding of those in need is easy or perhaps even possible.

Be thankful,

> to begin with, and refrain from criticizing those, uh, " below "

you. Above

> all, it is very inappropriate for you to be thin-skinned.

>

> The fact of the matter is, higher education cannot be sold without

the

> implicit promise that it will lead to a good income with clean,

easy and

> pleasant work. In this, TCM education at least approaches fraud.

You don't

> need me to tell you this, any number of others have said it, again

and again,

> on this list and in other forums.

>

> > I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> > offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because

I

> > can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will

have

> > long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do it

> > because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike

it

> > rich at 40 dollars per hour

> --

> Regards,

>

> Pete

> http://www.pete-theisen.com/

>

[Guest guest]

Now, now Pete

 

I would suggest that your e-mails are coming across in a way that you

don't intend.

 

 

> If you are making $80K + per year teaching,

Schools pay per lecture hour...teachers teach one day per week or one

class per week. I have never met a TCM instructor making $80K. Surely

you are aware that nobody is lecturing 40 hours per week.

 

 

you are past the level where any understanding of those in need is easy

or perhaps even possible.

 

Could you clarify this? It sounds like you're saying that if Bill does

make $80K, he is incapable of compassion...so surely it's not coming

across as intended...

 

 

Be thankful, to begin with, and refrain from criticizing those, uh,

" below " you.

 

I missed where Bill was criticizing anyone. Only commenting on

pejoratives.

 

Above all, it is very inappropriate for you to be thin-skinned.

 

It doesn't strike me as " thin-skinned " to react to statements like:

" those who can, do; those who can't, teach " --not your words

" riding the gravy train " -- your words I believe

" TCM education at least approaches fraud " -- your words

 

These types of statements aren't particularly constructive...and many

might find them offensive

>

> The fact of the matter is, higher education cannot be sold without the

> implicit promise that it will lead to a good income with clean, easy and

> pleasant work. In this, TCM education at least approaches fraud. You

> don't need me to tell you this, any number of others have said it, again and

> again, on this list and in other forums.

 

Speaking only for myself, I studied because I wanted to

learn it. Nobody told me it would be easy...nobody told me that starting

a practice would be easy. Nobody said or implied that I would be trained

in business and marketing at a school of Chinese medicine. These classes

are available at community colleges by people trained to teach such

things and internet resources from some with experience.

 

I expected to be trained to use this paradigm to analyze and treat

people's health from a very small group of people who know, understand

and communicate profound knowledge. I can learn bookkeeping from

Quickbooks 2006 for Dummies.

 

Anyone involved in TCM education will acknowledge that there is plenty

of room for improvement!!! Didactic training in this medicine dates back

less than a century and many of the skills we need to know require more

hands on guidance.

 

Words like " fraud " might overstate your stance as they impune the

integrity of the vast majority of teachers and school administrators who

are trying to help students learn, in 4 years or less, (a medicine that

most have ZERO background in at the start) to become licensed

practitioners and often primary care providers.

 

Many of the members of this forum have strong opinions and are

passionate about their beliefs...we might want to use care in our word

choices...

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different…

[Guest guest]

Bill,

 

I hope your teaching is better than your reading comprehension.

 

The TOPIC of this post is about the lack of " jobs " in CM and

succeeding in private practice.

 

Most of those who TEACH CM full time are not people who have thriving

private practices. THEY ARE BUSY DOING WHAT I HOPE YOU ARE DOING,

teaching their students in a meaningful way the meat of what can be

learned in a classroom setting. THEIR CONCENTRATION MUST BE ON THE

COMMUNICATION OF THIS KNOWLEGE. Their expertise is rarely that of

building and growing a business based on the use of chinese medicine.

 

Most practitioners I've communicated with feel their required

Business Mastery or Practice Success course(s) at CM school were

little better than wastes of time.

 

READ the post for what it is, rather than getting your feathers

ruffled by something YOU took out of context.

 

Mark Z

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Bill

Schoenbart " <plantmed wrote:

>

> I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because I

> can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will have

> long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do it

> because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike it

> rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive statement

> with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no intention

to

> hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common

sayings

> can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain

stupidity.

> Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should repeat

them.

> Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that way

> about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

>

> - Bill

>

> > I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

> > some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> > and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The

one

> > I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " .

If

> > you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who

can

> > are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

> > apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

very

> > few students at a time.

>

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 07 July 2007 17:37, stephen woodley wrote:

 

Hi Stephen!

 

At our school I think the hard sell was to get the student loan money

kickback. I don't think any of the teachers or the director were involved in

that - that was the financial aid person(s), but the teachers did tell us

over and over again that we would make good money, be highly respected, not

have to see that many patients to be well set, and on and on.

 

I think our teachers believed it back then, but by now it has to be seen as,

ahem, not being the case. Yet no student in his/her right mind is going to go

through a course like this unless there is the promise of a good payoff at

the end of all the hard work. For 80%, for heaven's sake, the payoff is not

there. Not even close.

 

There simply would not be enough naive or stupid students to support the

schools if the truth were told to prospects, the schools have to lie to get

the enrollment they want. In addition, it has been all over the news about

the student loan kickbacks, surely you have seen this.

 

Now, I think the teachers should make $80K if the students are going to get

the opportunity they have to be promised to get them signed on in the first

place. If they aren't making $80K what are they even saying to the students

to make it look worthwhile? Yeah, what?

 

> Now, now Pete

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

Marc,

 

I think the topic can be addressed without making derogatory

comments about teachers in general. It's disrespectful, inaccurate,

and unnecessary. It's not out of context or a sign of impaired

reading comprehension to comment on that aspect of the post.

 

I strongly disagree that people choose to teach because they can't

be successful at practicing. Not everybody wants to practice full

time. Some people just prefer to make teaching a part of their

career. It's not a sign of failure. It's a personal preference.

Everybody has a different relationship to the medicine. Some people

practice part time, some depend completely on their practice for all

their income. It's essential that students decide what is best for

them and plan accordingly.

 

I completely agree that schools need to do a much better job of

preparing students for the realities of clinical practice. I also

believe that people who have thriving practices should be the ones

to teach practice management courses. Preparing students with

accurate information as early as possible is the best way to change

the misconceptions that lead to a failure to thrive.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls "

<zaranski wrote:

>

> Bill,

>

> I hope your teaching is better than your reading comprehension.

>

> The TOPIC of this post is about the lack of " jobs " in CM and

> succeeding in private practice.

>

> Most of those who TEACH CM full time are not people who have

thriving

> private practices. THEY ARE BUSY DOING WHAT I HOPE YOU ARE DOING,

> teaching their students in a meaningful way the meat of what can

be

> learned in a classroom setting. THEIR CONCENTRATION MUST BE ON

THE

> COMMUNICATION OF THIS KNOWLEGE. Their expertise is rarely that of

> building and growing a business based on the use of chinese

medicine.

>

> Most practitioners I've communicated with feel their required

> Business Mastery or Practice Success course(s) at CM school were

> little better than wastes of time.

>

> READ the post for what it is, rather than getting your feathers

> ruffled by something YOU took out of context.

>

> Mark Z

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Bill

> Schoenbart " <plantmed@> wrote:

> >

> > I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> > offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because

I

> > can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will

have

> > long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do

it

> > because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike

it

> > rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive

statement

> > with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no

intention

> to

> > hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common

> sayings

> > can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain

> stupidity.

> > Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should repeat

> them.

> > Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that

way

> > about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

> >

> > - Bill

> >

> > > I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is

usually

> > > some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> > > and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ).

The

> one

> > > I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't,

teach " .

> If

> > > you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those

who

> can

> > > are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of

the

> > > apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

> very

> > > few students at a time.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have been reading this thread which needs a subject line change (notice

how I have not done that).

 

 

 

I was struggling to get my practice up and running and found the secret to

increasing my practice. I met some very successful practitioners who were

not having the same challenges as me. They were surprised at the problems I

was having with patient recruitment. I realized the problem was ME!

 

 

 

Since I believed that recruitment was difficult, It was. Since I believed I

lived in an area that Acupuncture was not accepted, it was hard to find the

new patients.

 

 

 

In meeting successful practitioners in my area who had no problem with

patient recruitment, I realized my beliefs were not correct. Guess what! My

practice increased! I am seeing my numbers go up every month. I also

increased my fees to be more in line with other practitioners in the area.

 

 

 

My biggest surprise was that my existing patients did not mind the price

increase. They were happy to pay it. They are happy to see my business

growing like it is.

 

 

 

If we do not value the service we provide, who will! Face it guys, we do

amazing things every day! We relieve suffering and restore our patients

quality of life. That’s amazing stuff!

 

 

 

I feel blessed and honored to be part of this profession.

 

 

 

Lee Tritt, OMD, AP

 

321-961-6432

 

A little needling never hurt anyone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of zedbowls

Sunday, July 08, 2007 1:33 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Some informations about Traditional jobs

 

 

 

Bill,

 

I hope your teaching is better than your reading comprehension.

 

The TOPIC of this post is about the lack of " jobs " in CM and

succeeding in private practice.

 

Most of those who TEACH CM full time are not people who have thriving

private practices. THEY ARE BUSY DOING WHAT I HOPE YOU ARE DOING,

teaching their students in a meaningful way the meat of what can be

learned in a classroom setting. THEIR CONCENTRATION MUST BE ON THE

COMMUNICATION OF THIS KNOWLEGE. Their expertise is rarely that of

building and growing a business based on the use of chinese medicine.

 

Most practitioners I've communicated with feel their required

Business Mastery or Practice Success course(s) at CM school were

little better than wastes of time.

 

READ the post for what it is, rather than getting your feathers

ruffled by something YOU took out of context.

 

Mark Z

 

HYPERLINK

" Chinese Medicine%40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com, " Bill

Schoenbart " <plantmed@..-.> wrote:

>

> I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because I

> can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will have

> long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do it

> because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike it

> rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive statement

> with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no intention

to

> hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common

sayings

> can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain

stupidity.

> Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should repeat

them.

> Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that way

> about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

>

> - Bill

>

> > I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is usually

> > some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> > and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The

one

> > I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't, teach " .

If

> > you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those who

can

> > are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of the

> > apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

very

> > few students at a time.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.1/888 - Release 7/6/2007

6:36 AM

 

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/890 - Release 7/7/2007

3:26 PM

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Lee,

 

You make some good points. I do think it's important to consider the

amount of acupuncturists in an area before practicing there. I have

seen many people succeed quickly in places where there are no

practitioners, like the person in Indiana who posted previously. On

the other hand, I have also seen people straight out of school

succeed in areas where most practitioners are struggling. They

usually have a combination of determination, positive thinking, and

good business skills. The town where I live has around 300

acupuncturists in a population of 55,000 people. You can be sure

that I warn students about the extreme challenge that poses for a

new practitioner. There are usually one or tywo students who are

going to try anyway, since they don't want to be anywhere else. It

always amazes me when some of them manage to carve out a decent

practice in this environment. Those are the people who possess the

attitude and skills you are describing.

 

- Bill

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " acudoc "

<acudoc wrote:

>

> I have been reading this thread which needs a subject line change

(notice

> how I have not done that).

>

>

>

> I was struggling to get my practice up and running and found the

secret to

> increasing my practice. I met some very successful practitioners

who were

> not having the same challenges as me. They were surprised at the

problems I

> was having with patient recruitment. I realized the problem was ME!

>

>

>

> Since I believed that recruitment was difficult, It was. Since I

believed I

> lived in an area that Acupuncture was not accepted, it was hard to

find the

> new patients.

>

>

>

> In meeting successful practitioners in my area who had no problem

with

> patient recruitment, I realized my beliefs were not correct. Guess

what! My

> practice increased! I am seeing my numbers go up every month. I

also

> increased my fees to be more in line with other practitioners in

the area.

>

>

>

> My biggest surprise was that my existing patients did not mind the

price

> increase. They were happy to pay it. They are happy to see my

business

> growing like it is.

>

>

>

> If we do not value the service we provide, who will! Face it

guys, we do

> amazing things every day! We relieve suffering and restore our

patients

> quality of life. That's amazing stuff!

>

>

>

> I feel blessed and honored to be part of this profession.

>

>

>

> Lee Tritt, OMD, AP

>

> 321-961-6432

>

> A little needling never hurt anyone

>

_____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

zedbowls

> Sunday, July 08, 2007 1:33 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Some informations about Traditional Chinese

Medicine jobs

>

>

>

> Bill,

>

> I hope your teaching is better than your reading comprehension.

>

> The TOPIC of this post is about the lack of " jobs " in CM and

> succeeding in private practice.

>

> Most of those who TEACH CM full time are not people who have

thriving

> private practices. THEY ARE BUSY DOING WHAT I HOPE YOU ARE DOING,

> teaching their students in a meaningful way the meat of what can

be

> learned in a classroom setting. THEIR CONCENTRATION MUST BE ON THE

> COMMUNICATION OF THIS KNOWLEGE. Their expertise is rarely that of

> building and growing a business based on the use of chinese

medicine.

>

> Most practitioners I've communicated with feel their required

> Business Mastery or Practice Success course(s) at CM school were

> little better than wastes of time.

>

> READ the post for what it is, rather than getting your feathers

> ruffled by something YOU took out of context.

>

> Mark Z

>

> HYPERLINK

> " Chinese Medicine%

40 " Traditional_-Chinese_

> Medicine- (AT) (DOT) -com, " Bill

> Schoenbart " <plantmed@> wrote:

> >

> > I have to say that, as a teacher, I find this quote to be really

> > offensive. I teach because it is a noble profession, not because

I

> > can't do anything else. I do it because of the effect it will

have

> > long after I am gone, not because it is some last resort. I do

it

> > because the students ask me to, not because I'm going to strike

it

> > rich at 40 dollars per hour. If you preface an offensive

statement

> > with platitudes like " with all due respect " or " I have no

intention

> to

> > hurt or smear anyone " , that doesn't change the message. Common

> sayings

> > can be gross generalizations, racist beliefs, or just plain

> stupidity.

> > Just because they are common doesn't mean that you should repeat

> them.

> > Where did you learn Chinese medicine? Do you really feel that

way

> > about your teachers? It's really sad if you do.

> >

> > - Bill

> >

> > > I have no intention to hurt or smear anyone, but there is

usually

> > > some truth in common sayings (such as " you are what you eat " ,

> > > and " you usually find things in the last place you look " ). The

> one

> > > I'm thinking of is " those who can, do; those who can't,

teach " .

> If

> > > you think about it, this actually makes sense in that those

who

> can

> > > are often too busy doing to be effective trainers outside of

the

> > > apprentice system, which cannot effectivly handle more than a

> very

> > > few students at a time.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.1/888 - Release Date:

7/6/2007

> 6:36 AM

>

>

>

>

>

> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/890 - Release Date:

7/7/2007

> 3:26 PM

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 07 July 2007 00:47, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

<snip>

> I don't know where you get the idea that I make that much money in

> teaching. I teach 7 - 10 hours per week in the Spring and Fall

> semesters, and not at all in the Winter and Summer semesters. I do

> it for the joy of teaching, not for the money. I could make more

> money by expanding my practice or writing, but I prefer a

> combination of teaching, practicing, and doing research.

 

Hi Dr. Bill!

 

You did not say you were part time in your post. Our teachers were full time

although not at $40 per hour. If you are warning the students as you say,

then you are doing your part and my comments do not apply to you personally.

 

Now, you admit that you know there is a fraud going on, do you not? After all,

it has even hit the papers! Perhaps you are doing your part to fight it, but

you know it is there.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 07 July 2007 07:26, pippa258 wrote:

> Just want you to know there is a prospective student out there who

> appreciates that you post on this subject.

 

Hi Prospective Dr. Trish!

 

It is wonderful medicine, but a horrible business, and for all intents and

purposes, no *jobs* at all. It is a shame to say it, but most people can't

sell this.

 

I remember signing up for a health fair and deciding that it would be a little

more work than I could handle alone. I decided to hire a " receptionist " to

help me. I settled on my friend's sister, I hired her sight unseen over the

phone. Her name is Heather.

 

When she showed up I was astonished at how strikingly beautiful she was. Not

only that, she was a good worker, and she booked all kinds of appointments

for me. Then when the appointments showed up to my one man office the first

question was " Where's Heather? " When they found out she wasn't going to be

there, they had no interest in continuing!

 

If you look nice yourself, or hire a knockout looking girl, you may be able to

book repeat appointments. Works on female patients, too, don't know why.

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/

[Guest guest]

On Sunday 08 July 2007 08:40, acudoc wrote:

> I have been reading this thread which needs a subject line change (notice

> how I have not done that).

 

Hi Dr. Lee!

 

If you change the subject line, people who are following the thread will have

to look for it, not knowing what the subject is. If they get a lot of mail

this will be next to impossible.

 

> I was struggling to get my practice up and running and found the secret to

> increasing my practice. I met some very successful practitioners who were

> not having the same challenges as me. They were surprised at the problems I

> was having with patient recruitment. I realized the problem was ME!

 

Me too. I believe I would do better if I were A) young, B) female and C)

extremely good looking. (see my other post)

--

Regards,

 

Pete

http://www.pete-theisen.com/