Guest guest Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 I was told by Laura Thorne of golden needle that min tong used asia naturals herbs, and that asia naturals herbs were organic or wild crafted. i'm ccing them on this message to see if they will confirm/clarify my recollection of the conversation. k On 6/21/07, Philip Cusick <pkcusick wrote: > > Hey Kath- > > I also use MinTong - Bioessence granules but they are NOT ORGANIC. > and never claimed to be. They are manufactured in Taiwan. Also, I > don't think that they have any connection with Asia Natural Herbs > which is a San Francisco based company. And Asia Natural buys/sells > untreated, unsprayed herbs but they are not organic either. > > someone correct me if I am wrong. > > Do any organic herbs come out of China, anybody know? > > Phil > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Organic is a tricky word. Organic means: in the context that we're looking at: 1. Of, marked by, or involving the use of fertilizers or pesticides that are strictly of animal or vegetable origin: *organic vegetables; an organic farm. * 2. Raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals: *organic chicken; organic cattle farming.* 3. Serving organic food: *an organic restaurant.* 4. Simple, healthful, and close to nature: *an organic lifestyle.* American Heritage Dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organic Anyone can say that the herbs that they sell are " organic " , but are they " certified organic " ? And there are at least two designations of " certified organic " = Organically grown or Organically processed. Organically processed does not necessitate using raw materials that come from Organically grown conditions. Many teas are coming out of China that are " Certified Organic " Grown and processed. As far as herbs go, Herbasin from Germany is claiming to have Certified Organic herbs. Also, Organic from China is different than Organic from the United States. Don't forget that there's industrial pollution that may be incidental in the water, air, soil. These may or may not be tested for. I think more importantly, is does the company that you use third party lab test their herbs and have Certificates of Analysis to prove that? They should be testing for heavy metal counts, molds, specific bacteria, species identification, preservatives and pesticides. Hope this helps. On 6/21/07, wrote: > > I was told by Laura Thorne of golden needle that min tong used asia > naturals > herbs, and that asia naturals herbs were organic or wild crafted. i'm > ccing > them on this message to see if they will confirm/clarify my recollection > of > the conversation. > > k > > On 6/21/07, Philip Cusick <pkcusick <pkcusick%40mac.com>> wrote: > > > > Hey Kath- > > > > I also use MinTong - Bioessence granules but they are NOT ORGANIC. > > and never claimed to be. They are manufactured in Taiwan. Also, I > > don't think that they have any connection with Asia Natural Herbs > > which is a San Francisco based company. And Asia Natural buys/sells > > untreated, unsprayed herbs but they are not organic either. > > > > someone correct me if I am wrong. > > > > Do any organic herbs come out of China, anybody know? > > > > Phil > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 its seems my memory is playing tricks on me. here's what laura thorne emailed me about asia naturals, min tong, bio essence, etc.: Asia Natural herbs are not certified organic since there is no certification in China. The herbs themselves are extremely clean and grown according to very old traditions for each particular herb. We send these herbs to Switzerland and they have tested beautifully. As far as Min Tong granules, Emmanuel Segman who works for Asia Naturals use to work for Min Tong – I don't know if that's the connection. But Min Tong as far as I know does not use Asia Natural herbs. However, Far East Summit does, Pacific Biologic does as well as other companies who manufacture such as Tom's of Maine and Gaia. Maybe all these conversations in the past merged. I hope this clears this up for you. sorry for causing confusion on this issue. k On 6/21/07, <johnkokko wrote: > > Organic is a tricky word. > > Organic means: in the context that we're looking at: > > 1. Of, marked by, or involving the use of fertilizers or pesticides > that are strictly of animal or vegetable origin: *organic vegetables; > an organic farm. * > 2. Raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or > synthetic chemicals: *organic chicken; organic cattle farming.* > 3. Serving organic food: *an organic restaurant.* > 4. Simple, healthful, and close to nature: *an organic lifestyle.* > > American Heritage Dictionary: > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organic > > Anyone can say that the herbs that they sell are " organic " , > but are they " certified organic " ? > And there are at least two designations of " certified organic " > = Organically grown or Organically processed. > Organically processed does not necessitate using raw materials that come > from Organically grown conditions. > > Many teas are coming out of China that are " Certified Organic " Grown and > processed. > As far as herbs go, Herbasin from Germany is claiming to have Certified > Organic herbs. > > Also, Organic from China is different than Organic from the United States. > Don't forget that there's industrial pollution that may be incidental in > the > water, air, soil. > These may or may not be tested for. > > I think more importantly, is does the company that you use third party lab > test their herbs and have > Certificates of Analysis to prove that? > They should be testing for heavy metal counts, molds, specific bacteria, > species identification, preservatives and pesticides. > > Hope this helps. > > On 6/21/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > I was told by Laura Thorne of golden needle that min tong used asia > > naturals > > herbs, and that asia naturals herbs were organic or wild crafted. i'm > > ccing > > them on this message to see if they will confirm/clarify my recollection > > of > > the conversation. > > > > k > > > > On 6/21/07, Philip Cusick <pkcusick <pkcusick%40mac.com><pkcusick%40mac.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Hey Kath- > > > > > > I also use MinTong - Bioessence granules but they are NOT ORGANIC. > > > and never claimed to be. They are manufactured in Taiwan. Also, I > > > don't think that they have any connection with Asia Natural Herbs > > > which is a San Francisco based company. And Asia Natural buys/sells > > > untreated, unsprayed herbs but they are not organic either. > > > > > > someone correct me if I am wrong. > > > > > > Do any organic herbs come out of China, anybody know? > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\ tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 > > Asia Natural herbs are not certified organic since there is no certification > in China. Actually, this is not correct. There is organic certification in China, it's just not very common yet. For products grown, processed, or produced in China to use the " Organic " label in the USA they require NOP certification. There are some certified growers, but not a lot yet. The company I work for here in Hangzhou is working on its NOP certification, and they're also helping their contract farmers with their certification process. When both the growers and the processing facilities are NOP certified, then the products can be labeled " organic " for the US market. Look for more organic herbs from China in coming years. As for growing Chinese herbs in other countries, I like the idea but think we need to be careful not to assume the functions of these herbs will be identical to the herbs grown in the proper/traditional regions in China. When you change climate, soil, water, etc, you inevitably change the nature of the herbs. Understanding the nature of these herbs will take careful observation by some very clever people. But I for one think it well worth the effort! For one, I think people would be healthier consuming things that are from their local environment, and second, I'm not a fan of globalization- how much fossil fuel is consumed transporting herbs such great distances?!?! Best wishes, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Hi Greg, Kath and John, In my humble opinion, all of you made good comments on this thread. John's comments were especially noteworthy as there's a company in China called something like Organic Chinese Herbs, I can't recall precisely the name. When I inquired how they were getting certification, they said that their herbs were not certified but rather just grown according to traditional methods. It made me smile and shake my head at the time. I've approached NOP organic certification many times for growers and wildcrafters in China on behalf of various corporate customers. Unfortunately in most cases it was for wildcrafted rather than cultivated herbs. The $7,000 per herb per lot cost for a German company based in Shanghai to do this work was absurd. In a sense they would have to " certify " the entire landscape. In fact such certification defies the entire organic movement that I was a part of in the early 1970s wherein you work locally with people doing small scale sustainable cultivation or wildcrafting. We were attempting to return to traditional methods of agriculture before the advent of commodity marketing. The best case scenario that I've seen from my larger corporate customers is when they support testing for heavy metals and pesticides and require my agronomists to go to many remote growing or wildcrafting sites as sources for materials. In this manner it's possible to find clean herbs, grown or wildcrafted responsibly by people who come from a long cultural tradition with the herbs of Chinese medicine. This is not NOP organic certification, but honestly to my mind it is in some ways superior. But that's my personal perspective as a former organic farmer from the early 1970s before the advent of " certification. " Some may want to take the time to read Michael Pollan's book The Omnivore's Dilemma. The farmers that he celebrates in his research refuse to engage in the organic certification process. They feel it's entirely wrong for the work that they do. Until I see things around certification change, I'm of the same mind with regard to Chinese herbs. If some wealthy corporation wants to make the arrangements for certification, I will assist with that. But honestly it's not a " sustainable " activity, especially for anyone who wants to provide herbal formulas to their patients to cook at home. We often overlook what is sustainable in the realm of agriculture, Chinese medical practice and community. There may come a day when organic certification also becomes a sustainable practice in these ways. Thank you Greg, John and Kath for comments on this topic so close to my heart. Respectfully and gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine , " Greg A. Livingston " <drlivingston wrote: > > > > > > Asia Natural herbs are not certified organic since there is no > certification > > in China. > > Actually, this is not correct. There is organic certification in > China, it's just not very common yet. For products grown, processed, > or produced in China to use the " Organic " label in the USA they > require NOP certification. There are some certified growers, but not a > lot yet. The company I work for here in Hangzhou is working on its NOP > certification, and they're also helping their contract farmers with > their certification process. When both the growers and the processing > facilities are NOP certified, then the products can be labeled > " organic " for the US market. Look for more organic herbs from China in > coming years. > > As for growing Chinese herbs in other countries, I like the idea but > think we need to be careful not to assume the functions of these herbs > will be identical to the herbs grown in the proper/traditional regions > in China. When you change climate, soil, water, etc, you inevitably > change the nature of the herbs. Understanding the nature of these > herbs will take careful observation by some very clever people. But I > for one think it well worth the effort! For one, I think people would > be healthier consuming things that are from their local environment, > and second, I'm not a fan of globalization- how much fossil fuel is > consumed transporting herbs such great distances?!?! > > Best wishes, > > Greg > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Min Tong does not have any affiliation with Asia Naturals. Min Tong procures their herbs from China. As there is no Organic certification in China, Min Tong cannot claim Organic certification for their herbs. Asia Naturals supplies herbs to the U.S. Market. Barry Thorne _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Hi Emmanuel, Always nice to hear from you. I completely agree with you and John that " certified " organic is not necessarily equal to or better than traditional methods which are/were in fact organic but for whatever reason (often $$$) don't have the certification. Certification is pricey and has become a corporate commodity in many ways. I understand and sympathise with people who resist it. Also, as John mentioned, a grower can be certified, but the neighbor might be spraying god-knows-what (drifting onto the " organic " plants), and ambient pollution can be raining down (and China has a lot of that!), etc. In the end, like John said, thrid-party testing from a reputable lab is still the only way to know what's in your herbs. Best, Greg Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen wrote: > > Hi Greg, Kath and John, > > In my humble opinion, all of you made good comments on this thread. > John's comments were especially noteworthy as there's a company in > China called something like Organic Chinese Herbs, I can't recall > precisely the name. When I inquired how they were getting > certification, they said that their herbs were not certified but > rather just grown according to traditional methods. It made me smile > and shake my head at the time. I've approached NOP organic > certification many times for growers and wildcrafters in China on > behalf of various corporate customers. Unfortunately in most cases it > was for wildcrafted rather than cultivated herbs. The $7,000 per herb > per lot cost for a German company based in Shanghai to do this work > was absurd. In a sense they would have to " certify " the entire > landscape. In fact such certification defies the entire organic > movement that I was a part of in the early 1970s wherein you work > locally with people doing small scale sustainable cultivation or > wildcrafting. We were attempting to return to traditional methods of > agriculture before the advent of commodity marketing. > > The best case scenario that I've seen from my larger corporate > customers is when they support testing for heavy metals and pesticides > and require my agronomists to go to many remote growing or > wildcrafting sites as sources for materials. In this manner it's > possible to find clean herbs, grown or wildcrafted responsibly by > people who come from a long cultural tradition with the herbs of > Chinese medicine. This is not NOP organic certification, but honestly > to my mind it is in some ways superior. But that's my personal > perspective as a former organic farmer from the early 1970s before the > advent of " certification. " > > Some may want to take the time to read Michael Pollan's book The > Omnivore's Dilemma. The farmers that he celebrates in his research > refuse to engage in the organic certification process. They feel it's > entirely wrong for the work that they do. Until I see things around > certification change, I'm of the same mind with regard to Chinese > herbs. If some wealthy corporation wants to make the arrangements for > certification, I will assist with that. But honestly it's not a > " sustainable " activity, especially for anyone who wants to provide > herbal formulas to their patients to cook at home. We often overlook > what is sustainable in the realm of agriculture, Chinese medical > practice and community. There may come a day when organic > certification also becomes a sustainable practice in these ways. > > Thank you Greg, John and Kath for comments on this topic so close to > my heart. > > Respectfully and gratefully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > Chinese Medicine , " Greg A. > Livingston " <drlivingston@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Asia Natural herbs are not certified organic since there is no > > certification > > > in China. > > > > Actually, this is not correct. There is organic certification in > > China, it's just not very common yet. For products grown, processed, > > or produced in China to use the " Organic " label in the USA they > > require NOP certification. There are some certified growers, but not a > > lot yet. The company I work for here in Hangzhou is working on its NOP > > certification, and they're also helping their contract farmers with > > their certification process. When both the growers and the processing > > facilities are NOP certified, then the products can be labeled > > " organic " for the US market. Look for more organic herbs from China in > > coming years. > > > > As for growing Chinese herbs in other countries, I like the idea but > > think we need to be careful not to assume the functions of these herbs > > will be identical to the herbs grown in the proper/traditional regions > > in China. When you change climate, soil, water, etc, you inevitably > > change the nature of the herbs. Understanding the nature of these > > herbs will take careful observation by some very clever people. But I > > for one think it well worth the effort! For one, I think people would > > be healthier consuming things that are from their local environment, > > and second, I'm not a fan of globalization- how much fossil fuel is > > consumed transporting herbs such great distances?!?! > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Greg > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 One last detail to add here is a response to Greg Livingston. Note, Greg, that the USDA NOP organic certification program lists very few approved certifiers. I could find only a couple of certifiers from the USDA approved list who would work with me in China. After much effort, only one cerifier in the end would go to completion with the process. Note that most USDA approved certifiers do not view Chinese herbs as an important part of their work. They do not want to work with traditional cultivators and want nothing at all to do with wildcrafters. They want to work with the likes of Celestial Seasonings who can rent 1,000 acres of land, hire laborers and grow forsythia flowers for their tea. To my knowledge there is no organically certified Chinese herbs in the American marketplace approved by USDA NOP. You would have to pay over $50.00 per pound for less than medium grade licorice root, gan cao, for example. Normal medium to high grade gan cao is wildcrafted not cultivated. The big time USDA NOP certifiers are working with large corporations, not companies like mine. When I do this sort of work, it's paid for in advance by the corporation. So none of the organically certified herbs end up in the marketplace for practitioners. Check out who is certifying Chinese herbs in America. See if that certifier is approved by the USDA for its NOP program. I have not seen any Chinese herbs in the American practitioner marketplace certified NOP organic. I may be mistaken in this, but I haven't seen any. Certainly none grown in China from a traditional grower or wildcrafter. Regarding Min Tong, I left Min Tong as the marketing supervisor at the end of 1994 and began working as general manager for Asia Naturals in January, 1995. There is no relationship between the companies regarding ingredients. Min Tong has a GMP certified factory in Taichung, Taiwan. BioEssence (Dr. Kris Yang) markets the Min Tong label and also has products made at the Taibo Factory, which is internationally certified GMP under Australian authority. The Taibo Factory (Gansu Meheco) is formerly the Ming Xiang Pharmaceutical Factory. It still retains its historical authority from Beijing to market herbal extracts to America and Europe. The former co-general manager of the Taibo Factory used to be my colleague for several years in my office at Asia Natural. Other factories did not until recent times have Beijing's authorization to independently market outside of mainland China. The Foci Factory in Lanzhou, for example, has historically had the largest output to China's domestic market. Historically, they could only send product to America if an American company independently contracted with them. In recent years such limitations have gotten loosened up. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine , " LAURA THORNE " <thornedist wrote: > > Min Tong does not have any affiliation with Asia Naturals. Min Tong > procures their herbs from China. As there is no Organic certification in > China, Min Tong cannot claim Organic certification for their herbs. Asia > Naturals supplies herbs to the U.S. Market. > > > > Barry Thorne > > > > _____ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hi Emmanuel, It's also my understanding that there are very few NOP certified growers, processing facilities, etc, in China at this point, and as you said, they're not primarily interested in the American CM practitioner market because it's really tiny- they're going after the supplement industry and the like. However, there may be some spill-over into the practitioner market, as is the case with the company I work for. They're getting NOP to be more competitive in the supplement market, but there are some practitioner-market folks that have expressed interest to buy these certified herbs once they're available as well. But you're absolutely right, no one is doing this certification just to serve the practitioner market directly- that wouldn't be a feasible business move I think. Best, Greg Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen wrote: > > One last detail to add here is a response to Greg Livingston. Note, > Greg, that the USDA NOP organic certification program lists very few > approved certifiers. I could find only a couple of certifiers from > the USDA approved list who would work with me in China. After much > effort, only one cerifier in the end would go to completion with the > process. Note that most USDA approved certifiers do not view Chinese > herbs as an important part of their work. They do not want to work > with traditional cultivators and want nothing at all to do with > wildcrafters. They want to work with the likes of Celestial > Seasonings who can rent 1,000 acres of land, hire laborers and grow > forsythia flowers for their tea. To my knowledge there is no > organically certified Chinese herbs in the American marketplace > approved by USDA NOP. You would have to pay over $50.00 per pound for > less than medium grade licorice root, gan cao, for example. Normal > medium to high grade gan cao is wildcrafted not cultivated. The big > time USDA NOP certifiers are working with large corporations, not > companies like mine. When I do this sort of work, it's paid for in > advance by the corporation. So none of the organically certified > herbs end up in the marketplace for practitioners. Check out who is > certifying Chinese herbs in America. See if that certifier is > approved by the USDA for its NOP program. I have not seen any Chinese > herbs in the American practitioner marketplace certified NOP organic. > I may be mistaken in this, but I haven't seen any. Certainly none > grown in China from a traditional grower or wildcrafter. > > Regarding Min Tong, I left Min Tong as the marketing supervisor at the > end of 1994 and began working as general manager for Asia Naturals in > January, 1995. There is no relationship between the companies > regarding ingredients. Min Tong has a GMP certified factory in > Taichung, Taiwan. BioEssence (Dr. Kris Yang) markets the Min Tong > label and also has products made at the Taibo Factory, which is > internationally certified GMP under Australian authority. The Taibo > Factory (Gansu Meheco) is formerly the Ming Xiang Pharmaceutical > Factory. It still retains its historical authority from Beijing to > market herbal extracts to America and Europe. The former co-general > manager of the Taibo Factory used to be my colleague for several years > in my office at Asia Natural. Other factories did not until recent > times have Beijing's authorization to independently market outside of > mainland China. The Foci Factory in Lanzhou, for example, has > historically had the largest output to China's domestic market. > Historically, they could only send product to America if an American > company independently contracted with them. In recent years such > limitations have gotten loosened up. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > Chinese Medicine , " LAURA THORNE " > <thornedist@> wrote: > > > > Min Tong does not have any affiliation with Asia Naturals. Min Tong > > procures their herbs from China. As there is no Organic > certification in > > China, Min Tong cannot claim Organic certification for their herbs. > Asia > > Naturals supplies herbs to the U.S. Market. > > > > > > > > Barry Thorne > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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