Blood tonic-non-stagnating/easy on yin

[Guest guest]

Hi Group,

 

I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

movement.

 

I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

 

Any strategies/experiences to share?

 

Thanks for any thoughts,

 

Laura

[Guest guest]

Try something like:

Niu Zhen Zi

Han Lian Cao

Yi Mu Cao

Bai Shao

Xiang Fu

Sheng Jiang

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag wrote:

>

> Hi Group,

>

> I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

> non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

> not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

> patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

> the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

> Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

> less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> movement.

>

> I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

> Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

> need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

> best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

> can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

> deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

> Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

>

> Any strategies/experiences to share?

>

> Thanks for any thoughts,

>

> Laura

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the idea. I'm curious about dosages you might use and also

if you would add a qi tonic. Seems like there needs to be qi

tonification to make blood. Also, I usually think that you need to

drain dampness if you are going to use Bai Shao, but maybe Xiang Fu is

drying enough...? Has that been your experience?

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

" wrote:

>

> Try something like:

> Niu Zhen Zi

> Han Lian Cao

> Yi Mu Cao

> Bai Shao

> Xiang Fu

> Sheng Jiang

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> <heylaurag@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Group,

> >

> > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

> > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

> > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

> > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

> > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

> > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

> > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > movement.

> >

> > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

> > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

> > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

> > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

> > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

> > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

> > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

> >

> > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> >

> > Thanks for any thoughts,

> >

> > Laura

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm trying to lay out some generic ideas here for you. It's a common

issue of tonification and stagnation. I don't think bai shao needs a

drain dampness balance, perhaps I would say Shan yao needs it more.

But since we are doing long distance formula writing let me ask you

this. You seem to be describing a formula for women in their early

50's, perhaps a lot of yoga, thin. ONe could add Yi Mu Cao as the

tonifier, and your initial choice of He Shou Wu will drain damp as

well as being a good overall blood tonic in my view.

 

Doug

 

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag wrote:

>

> Thanks for the idea. I'm curious about dosages you might use and also

> if you would add a qi tonic. Seems like there needs to be qi

> tonification to make blood. Also, I usually think that you need to

> drain dampness if you are going to use Bai Shao, but maybe Xiang Fu is

> drying enough...? Has that been your experience?

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

> " <taiqi@> wrote:

> >

> > Try something like:

> > Niu Zhen Zi

> > Han Lian Cao

> > Yi Mu Cao

> > Bai Shao

> > Xiang Fu

> > Sheng Jiang

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> > <heylaurag@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Group,

> > >

> > > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

> > > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the

yin (so

> > > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

> > > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics

from

> > > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

> > > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start

with a

> > > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > > movement.

> > >

> > > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

> > > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient

patients

> > > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

> > > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

> > > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard

with yin

> > > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

> > > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

> > >

> > > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> > >

> > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > >

> > > Laura

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Its always interesting to hear other people's ideas about herbs. I've

never thought of Yi Mu Cao as tonifying (I think of it as blood

moving) and I've also never thought of He Shou Wu as damp draining (I

think of it as blood and yin tonifying). That's what my books say

anyway, but do you have a source that backs those ideas up? It kind

of makes sense that He Shou Wu might drain a little dampness because I

am always amazed at how non-damp-producing it is for a yin/blood tonic.

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

" wrote:

 

> I'm trying to lay out some generic ideas here for you. It's a common

> issue of tonification and stagnation. I don't think bai shao needs a

> drain dampness balance, perhaps I would say Shan yao needs it more.

> But since we are doing long distance formula writing let me ask you

> this. You seem to be describing a formula for women in their early

> 50's, perhaps a lot of yoga, thin. ONe could add Yi Mu Cao as the

> tonifier, and your initial choice of He Shou Wu will drain damp as

> well as being a good overall blood tonic in my view.

>

> Doug

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> <heylaurag@> wrote:

> >

> > Thanks for the idea. I'm curious about dosages you might use and also

> > if you would add a qi tonic. Seems like there needs to be qi

> > tonification to make blood. Also, I usually think that you need to

> > drain dampness if you are going to use Bai Shao, but maybe Xiang Fu is

> > drying enough...? Has that been your experience?

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

> > " <taiqi@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Try something like:

> > > Niu Zhen Zi

> > > Han Lian Cao

> > > Yi Mu Cao

> > > Bai Shao

> > > Xiang Fu

> > > Sheng Jiang

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> > > <heylaurag@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Group,

> > > >

> > > > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula

that uses

> > > > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the

> yin (so

> > > > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have

several

> > > > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > > > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > > > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics

> from

> > > > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen

Pi to

> > > > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start

> with a

> > > > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > > > movement.

> > > >

> > > > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > > > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > > > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and

use Xiao

> > > > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient

> patients

> > > > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure

how to

> > > > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > > > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the

dampness that

> > > > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard

> with yin

> > > > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di

in Ba

> > > > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > > > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so

well.

> > > >

> > > > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > Laura

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not really looking for a specific formula for a specific person to

be created long distance, more just to share ideas on this topic.

 

Of course, there are many ways to approach these things. Perhaps a

better approach would be to tonify the yin/blood in the evening and

then do a formula that moves a little for the daytime (to help deal

with the tonification) while mildly nourishing blood and qi and

protecting the yin. Maybe something this simple--

 

Bai Shao

Tai Zi Shen

Chen Pi

Fu Ling

Bai He

 

Maybe the Bai Shao is enough to get the liver flowing smoothly, maybe

not. Any thoughts?

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

" wrote:

>

> I'm trying to lay out some generic ideas here for you. It's a common

> issue of tonification and stagnation. I don't think bai shao needs a

> drain dampness balance, perhaps I would say Shan yao needs it more.

> But since we are doing long distance formula writing let me ask you

> this. You seem to be describing a formula for women in their early

> 50's, perhaps a lot of yoga, thin. ONe could add Yi Mu Cao as the

> tonifier, and your initial choice of He Shou Wu will drain damp as

> well as being a good overall blood tonic in my view.

>

> Doug

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> <heylaurag@> wrote:

> >

> > Thanks for the idea. I'm curious about dosages you might use and also

> > if you would add a qi tonic. Seems like there needs to be qi

> > tonification to make blood. Also, I usually think that you need to

> > drain dampness if you are going to use Bai Shao, but maybe Xiang Fu is

> > drying enough...? Has that been your experience?

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Douglas

> > " <taiqi@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Try something like:

> > > Niu Zhen Zi

> > > Han Lian Cao

> > > Yi Mu Cao

> > > Bai Shao

> > > Xiang Fu

> > > Sheng Jiang

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> > > <heylaurag@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Group,

> > > >

> > > > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula

that uses

> > > > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the

> yin (so

> > > > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have

several

> > > > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > > > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > > > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics

> from

> > > > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen

Pi to

> > > > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start

> with a

> > > > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > > > movement.

> > > >

> > > > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > > > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > > > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and

use Xiao

> > > > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient

> patients

> > > > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure

how to

> > > > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > > > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the

dampness that

> > > > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard

> with yin

> > > > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di

in Ba

> > > > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > > > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so

well.

> > > >

> > > > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > Laura

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura,

 

Qi, blood tonics that are easy on the yin and are non-stagnating?

 

How about using Chi shao with Bai shao as a dui yao pair?

Or adding a little bit of Mu xiang or sha ren to shu di huang to help with

stagnation?

Or looking at using more of the tail in Dang gui, which moves the blood more

without hurting the blood or yin?

Or adding Dan shen to the formula, which lightly nourishes, cools and moves

xue?

Or adding Ye jiao teng to he shou wu (both come from the same plant);

the vine also nourishes blood and unblocks channels.

Sheng-fresh he shou wu is more cooling and can clear fire toxicity and treat

malarial disorder.

Whereas, processed with wine/ black beans etc. He shou wu tonifies LV/KD

and secures essence.

Pao zhi is really important here. Most Chinese herb companies sell

processed He shou wu.

Ji xue teng both tonifies blood and invigorates channels (esp. elders)

Sang ji sheng also nourishes blood without being stagnating (great for

elders)

Gou qi zi with ju hua, yin and yang, nourishing and lightly moving.

Suan zao ren; makes many people feel drowzy the next morning, not so good

for the qi def. in daytime.

Mu dan pi cools and moves blood without damaging yin.

Mei gui hua and Mei gui qie softly move qi and blood.

Xiang fu moves the qi within the blood, the yang within the yin.

The more aged the chen pi, the less drying it is.

 

Any other ideas?

This is a great question.

 

by the way, I was thinking just yesterday that Chai hu was added to Xiao yao

san, when there is SP qi deficiency. Chai hu has an uplifting function,

which works well for SP qi def. patients, but it not good for yin def.

patients who don't have the yin to anchor the rising yang. Therefore, Chai

hu can aggravate these patients more.

 

That's why Yi guan jian wan is better for yin and blood def with qi

stagnation. No chai hu.

Yi guan jian wan still tonifies blood...dang gui, gou qi zi, nourishes yin:

mai dong, sha shen, sheng di and keeps the qi from stagnating. chuan lian

zi.

 

Gui pi tang (SP qi/HT blood def) can also be a bit cloying, even though it

has mu xiang in it.

what can be added to this for LV qi stagnation patients?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 6/21/07, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

>

> Hi Group,

>

> I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

> non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

> not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

> patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

> the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

> Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

> less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> movement.

>

> I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

> Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

> need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

> best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

> can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

> deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

> Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

>

> Any strategies/experiences to share?

>

> Thanks for any thoughts,

>

> Laura

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

aka Mu bong Lim

Father of Bhakti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John, so you say that the more aged the Chen pi the less drying it

is, huh? That's a nice nugget of information to know. Thanks for

sharing your other thoughts as well. I have a patient who had her

gallbladder removed, so she is always going to generate dampheat. So

that's the first part of the story. She is also prone to insomnia and

can tend to have low energy, and has yin and blood deficiency. I am

finding that she does best with a daytime formula that tonifies blood

and qi gently while also gently moving her sp/st and liver qi just a

little...and then I must clear dampheat as well because of the

gallbladder issue. Then at night I can give her yin/blood tonics for

sleep. Its a lot to juggle, so I thought I'd put it out there and see

what ideas people have. I find that if I do too much movement in a

patient with yin blood xu insomnia, their insomnia will get worse.

And the qi needs to be strong enough to generate blood--so if I move

too much it won't work. I could tonify just a little and move just a

little, or I could tonify a lot and move a lot. Still not sure which

way to go there.

 

Anyway, just thinking out loud, but would welcome any thoughts from

anyone who wasn't put to sleep reading that!

 

Laura

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> Hi Laura,

>

> Qi, blood tonics that are easy on the yin and are non-stagnating?

>

> How about using Chi shao with Bai shao as a dui yao pair?

> Or adding a little bit of Mu xiang or sha ren to shu di huang to

help with

> stagnation?

> Or looking at using more of the tail in Dang gui, which moves the

blood more

> without hurting the blood or yin?

> Or adding Dan shen to the formula, which lightly nourishes, cools

and moves

> xue?

> Or adding Ye jiao teng to he shou wu (both come from the same plant);

> the vine also nourishes blood and unblocks channels.

> Sheng-fresh he shou wu is more cooling and can clear fire toxicity

and treat

> malarial disorder.

> Whereas, processed with wine/ black beans etc. He shou wu

tonifies LV/KD

> and secures essence.

> Pao zhi is really important here. Most Chinese herb companies sell

> processed He shou wu.

> Ji xue teng both tonifies blood and invigorates channels (esp. elders)

> Sang ji sheng also nourishes blood without being stagnating (great for

> elders)

> Gou qi zi with ju hua, yin and yang, nourishing and lightly moving.

> Suan zao ren; makes many people feel drowzy the next morning, not so

good

> for the qi def. in daytime.

> Mu dan pi cools and moves blood without damaging yin.

> Mei gui hua and Mei gui qie softly move qi and blood.

> Xiang fu moves the qi within the blood, the yang within the yin.

> The more aged the chen pi, the less drying it is.

>

> Any other ideas?

> This is a great question.

>

> by the way, I was thinking just yesterday that Chai hu was added to

Xiao yao

> san, when there is SP qi deficiency. Chai hu has an uplifting function,

> which works well for SP qi def. patients, but it not good for yin def.

> patients who don't have the yin to anchor the rising yang.

Therefore, Chai

> hu can aggravate these patients more.

>

> That's why Yi guan jian wan is better for yin and blood def with qi

> stagnation. No chai hu.

> Yi guan jian wan still tonifies blood...dang gui, gou qi zi,

nourishes yin:

> mai dong, sha shen, sheng di and keeps the qi from stagnating. chuan

lian

> zi.

>

> Gui pi tang (SP qi/HT blood def) can also be a bit cloying, even

though it

> has mu xiang in it.

> what can be added to this for LV qi stagnation patients?

On 6/21/07, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

> >

> > Hi Group,

> >

> > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

> > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

> > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

> > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

> > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

> > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

> > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > movement.

> >

> > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

> > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

> > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

> > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

> > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

> > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

> > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

> >

> > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> >

> > Thanks for any thoughts,

> >

> > Laura

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

> aka Mu bong Lim

> Father of Bhakti

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There are a number of herbs that move qi and blood but don't damage

yin that could be added to your qi and blood tonics, such as suo luo

zi, ba yue zha, jin ju bing (kumquat), qing ju ye (very nice for PMS

with yin xu). Chai hu and chen pi as you mentioned are often a bit too

dry for yin xu patients. Someone mentioned Yi Guan Jian, which I use a

lot with good results. If Di Huang is too cloying, can pair it with

Sha Ren 3-5g, and/or use chao shu di. Just my 2 cents.

 

Best,

 

Greg

 

 

> > > > Hi Group,

> > > >

> > > > I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula

that uses

> > > > non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the

> yin (so

> > > > not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have

several

> > > > patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

> > > > then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

> > > > formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics

> from

> > > > the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen

Pi to

> > > > Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start

> with a

> > > > less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

> > > > movement.

> > > >

> > > > I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

> > > > create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

> > > > strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and

use Xiao

> > > > Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient

> patients

> > > > need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure

how to

> > > > best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

> > > > with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the

dampness that

> > > > can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard

> with yin

> > > > deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di

in Ba

> > > > Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

> > > > haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so

well.

> > > >

> > > > Any strategies/experiences to share?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for any thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > Laura

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

Why do you think a removed gallbladder is an indication that " she is always

going to generate dampheat " ?

 

She probably suffered in the past from damp-heat , but is the removal an

indication that she will also in the future?

Thanks

Guy

2007/6/22, heylaurag <heylaurag:

>

> . I have a patient who had her

> gallbladder removed, so she is always going to generate dampheat. So

> that's the first part of the story. She is also prone to insomnia and

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura, I'm wondering a little why the overall treatment seems to be so

foccussed on directly building blood / yin? If you are trying to avoid

engendering damp, there are other ways to go about it. In particular I see no

reason to not engender blood via the spleen...? The spleen basically engenders

blood, why not go that route?

 

Gan Cao

Ren Shen (Dang Shen)

Bai Zhu

Shan Yao

Fu Ling

 

As the base part of the formula, then add blood or yin tonics in moderate to

small proportion.

 

e.g.

Sang Shen

Nu Zhen Zi

He Shou Wu and / or Huang Jing (which is an excellent non-cloying yin tonic)

 

Remember that a lot of the evident cloying effects are due to dosage. There's

nothing wrong with using " sub-clinical " (ha ha) dosages if the patient's

presentation warrants it.

 

Ah, one more thing, we generally don't discuss it here in this forum, but what

people eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner (esp breakfast) can have a huge

(sometimes even make or break) effect on overall treatment.

 

Hope this helps,

Hugo

 

 

 

heylaurag <heylaurag

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 21 June, 2007 1:12:23 PM

Blood tonic-non-stagnating/easy on yin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Group,

 

 

 

I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

 

non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

 

not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

 

patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

 

then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

 

formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

 

the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

 

Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

 

less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

 

movement.

 

 

 

I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

 

create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

 

strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

 

Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

 

need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

 

best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

 

with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

 

can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

 

deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

 

Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

 

haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

 

 

 

Any strategies/experien ces to share?

 

 

 

Thanks for any thoughts,

 

 

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it

now.

http://uk.answers./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Laura,

as Hugo noted, what about Li dong yuan style herbalism in this case to

support the middle?

Bu zhong yi qi tang modified?

Yin fire school rectifies SP def, Qi depressive heat, damp in the lower

jiao and disturbance of ministerial fire.

My teacher always says, in difficult cases, support the SP and harmonize yin

and yang.

 

 

On 6/22/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi Laura, I'm wondering a little why the overall treatment seems to be

> so foccussed on directly building blood / yin? If you are trying to avoid

> engendering damp, there are other ways to go about it. In particular I see

> no reason to not engender blood via the spleen...? The spleen basically

> engenders blood, why not go that route?

>

> Gan Cao

> Ren Shen (Dang Shen)

> Bai Zhu

> Shan Yao

> Fu Ling

>

> As the base part of the formula, then add blood or yin tonics in moderate

> to small proportion.

>

> e.g.

> Sang Shen

> Nu Zhen Zi

> He Shou Wu and / or Huang Jing (which is an excellent non-cloying yin

> tonic)

>

> Remember that a lot of the evident cloying effects are due to dosage.

> There's nothing wrong with using " sub-clinical " (ha ha) dosages if the

> patient's presentation warrants it.

>

> Ah, one more thing, we generally don't discuss it here in this forum, but

> what people eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner (esp breakfast) can have a

> huge (sometimes even make or break) effect on overall treatment.

>

> Hope this helps,

> Hugo

>

>

>

> heylaurag <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Thursday, 21 June, 2007 1:12:23 PM

> Blood tonic-non-stagnating/easy on yin

>

> Hi Group,

>

> I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

>

> non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

>

> not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

>

> patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

>

> then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

>

> formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

>

> the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

>

> Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

>

> less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

>

> movement.

>

> I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

>

> create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

>

> strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

>

> Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

>

> need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

>

> best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

>

> with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

>

> can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

>

> deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

>

> Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

>

> haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

>

> Any strategies/experien ces to share?

>

> Thanks for any thoughts,

>

> Laura

>

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>

> ________

> Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try

> it

> now.

> http://uk.answers./

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the response and ideas. I do think that sometimes the

answer is to focus on the middle jiao (often times). But with a

patient like the one with no gallbladder I find that the dampheat

becomes an issue, and then when I work on the dampheat the herbs are

strong enough that the need for stronger yin/blood tonics becomes

necessary. Any thoughts on that? I like the idea of using Shan

Yao---I've been stuck in the mindset of using Bai Shao, and have been

trained (and seen it myself) that it then becomes necessary to add Fu

ling and Chen pi or dampheat draining herbs because it can be damp

producing. Do you find that constipation becomes a problem with the

Shan Yao?

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Hi Laura, I'm wondering a little why the overall treatment seems to

be so foccussed on directly building blood / yin? If you are trying to

avoid engendering damp, there are other ways to go about it. In

particular I see no reason to not engender blood via the spleen...?

The spleen basically engenders blood, why not go that route?

>

> Gan Cao

> Ren Shen (Dang Shen)

> Bai Zhu

> Shan Yao

> Fu Ling

>

> As the base part of the formula, then add blood or yin tonics in

moderate to small proportion.

>

> e.g.

> Sang Shen

> Nu Zhen Zi

> He Shou Wu and / or Huang Jing (which is an excellent non-cloying

yin tonic)

>

> Remember that a lot of the evident cloying effects are due to

dosage. There's nothing wrong with using " sub-clinical " (ha ha)

dosages if the patient's presentation warrants it.

>

> Ah, one more thing, we generally don't discuss it here in this

forum, but what people eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner (esp

breakfast) can have a huge (sometimes even make or break) effect on

overall treatment.

>

> Hope this helps,

> Hugo

>

>

>

> heylaurag <heylaurag

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, 21 June, 2007 1:12:23 PM

> Blood tonic-non-stagnating/easy on yin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hi Group,

>

>

>

> I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

>

> non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

>

> not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

>

> patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

>

> then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

>

> formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

>

> the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

>

> Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

>

> less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

>

> movement.

>

>

>

> I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

>

> create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

>

> strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

>

> Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

>

> need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

>

> best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

>

> with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

>

> can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

>

> deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

>

> Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

>

> haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

>

>

>

> Any strategies/experien ces to share?

>

>

>

> Thanks for any thoughts,

>

>

>

> Laura

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

>

_________

> Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer.

Try it

> now.

> http://uk.answers./

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, I would like to know what this patient's diet is, as well as their sleeping

habits.

Hugo

 

 

heylaurag <heylaurag

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 22 June, 2007 3:45:55 PM

Re: Blood tonic-non-stagnating/easy on yin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the response and ideas. I do think that sometimes the

 

answer is to focus on the middle jiao (often times). But with a

 

patient like the one with no gallbladder I find that the dampheat

 

becomes an issue, and then when I work on the dampheat the herbs are

 

strong enough that the need for stronger yin/blood tonics becomes

 

necessary. Any thoughts on that? I like the idea of using Shan

 

Yao---I've been stuck in the mindset of using Bai Shao, and have been

 

trained (and seen it myself) that it then becomes necessary to add Fu

 

ling and Chen pi or dampheat draining herbs because it can be damp

 

producing. Do you find that constipation becomes a problem with the

 

Shan Yao?

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

 

<subincor@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Hi Laura, I'm wondering a little why the overall treatment seems to

 

be so foccussed on directly building blood / yin? If you are trying to

 

avoid engendering damp, there are other ways to go about it. In

 

particular I see no reason to not engender blood via the spleen...?

 

The spleen basically engenders blood, why not go that route?

 

>

 

> Gan Cao

 

> Ren Shen (Dang Shen)

 

> Bai Zhu

 

> Shan Yao

 

> Fu Ling

 

>

 

> As the base part of the formula, then add blood or yin tonics in

 

moderate to small proportion.

 

>

 

> e.g.

 

> Sang Shen

 

> Nu Zhen Zi

 

> He Shou Wu and / or Huang Jing (which is an excellent non-cloying

 

yin tonic)

 

>

 

> Remember that a lot of the evident cloying effects are due to

 

dosage. There's nothing wrong with using " sub-clinical " (ha ha)

 

dosages if the patient's presentation warrants it.

 

>

 

> Ah, one more thing, we generally don't discuss it here in this

 

forum, but what people eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner (esp

 

breakfast) can have a huge (sometimes even make or break) effect on

 

overall treatment.

 

>

 

> Hope this helps,

 

> Hugo

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> heylaurag <heylaurag@. ..>

 

>

 

> Thursday, 21 June, 2007 1:12:23 PM

 

> Blood tonic-non-stagnatin g/easy on yin

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Hi Group,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I'm looking for help in designing a qi/blood tonic formula that uses

 

>

 

> non-stagnating herbs (so not Ba Zhen Tang) and is easy on the yin (so

 

>

 

> not Chai Hu in Xiao Yao San unless in a small dose). I have several

 

>

 

> patients who seem to need blood/qi tonification during the day and

 

>

 

> then yin tonification at night/evening. I want the qi/blood tonic

 

>

 

> formula to also be a little moving to help digest the yin tonics from

 

>

 

> the night before. I haven't had great experiences adding Chen Pi to

 

>

 

> Ba Zhen Tang--seems to be too drying. It seems better to start with a

 

>

 

> less stagnating formula and use something gentle like Zhi Ke for

 

>

 

> movement.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I know this is pretty much what we all want, and not so easy to

 

>

 

> create, but I thought it would be interesting to share thoughts on

 

>

 

> strategies that we've used. I know some might go ahead and use Xiao

 

>

 

> Yao San and add more Bai He, but it seems like yin deficient patients

 

>

 

> need a much lower dose of Chai Hu if at all, so I'm not sure how to

 

>

 

> best balance the formula if Chai Hu is reduced. I've experimented

 

>

 

> with Dang Gui San, which uses Huang Qin to balance the dampness that

 

>

 

> can be generated with Bai Shao, but of course it can be hard with yin

 

>

 

> deficient patients as well. I've tried switching from Shu di in Ba

 

>

 

> Zhen Tang to He Shou Wu (to be less stagnating), and maybe I just

 

>

 

> haven't gotten the right balance, but so far it hasn't gone so well.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Any strategies/experien ces to share?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Thanks for any thoughts,

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Laura

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

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>

 

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

 

> Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer.

 

Try it

 

> now.

 

> http://uk.answers. /

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Well, who knows. A supervisor of mine that I talked to about her said

that, actually. I have 3 patients that had their gallbladders removed

right now, and they do all 3 generate dampheat--it seems to need to be

an ongoing part of their treatments, so it does seem to be true. I

think the idea is that without the gallbladder to deal with the

dampheat it gets stuck more easily.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Guy Sedan "

<guysedan wrote:

>

> Hi there,

> Why do you think a removed gallbladder is an indication that " she is

always

> going to generate dampheat " ?

>

> She probably suffered in the past from damp-heat , but is the removal an

> indication that she will also in the future?

> Thanks

> Guy

> 2007/6/22, heylaurag <heylaurag:

> >

> > . I have a patient who had her

> > gallbladder removed, so she is always going to generate dampheat. So

> > that's the first part of the story. She is also prone to insomnia and

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gallstones qualities: Cold and drying. So, I would gather, would be qualities of

Gall itself.

Removal of a Gall Bladder would tend to allow dampness and heat. Just a thought

 

Peter Pavolotsky

 

heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Well,

who knows. A supervisor of mine that I talked to about her said

that, actually. I have 3 patients that had their gallbladders removed

right now, and they do all 3 generate dampheat--it seems to need to be

an ongoing part of their treatments, so it does seem to be true. I

think the idea is that without the gallbladder to deal with the

dampheat it gets stuck more easily.

 

Chinese Medicine , " Guy Sedan "

<guysedan wrote:

>

> Hi there,

> Why do you think a removed gallbladder is an indication that " she is

always

> going to generate dampheat " ?

>

> She probably suffered in the past from damp-heat , but is the removal an

> indication that she will also in the future?

> Thanks

> Guy

> 2007/6/22, heylaurag <heylaurag:

> >

> > . I have a patient who had her

> > gallbladder removed, so she is always going to generate dampheat. So

> > that's the first part of the story. She is also prone to insomnia and

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all, I forget if I actually wrote anything for this thread, but I had a

similar question as Guy, I believe. My issue is in regards to a reflexive

pre-diagnosis or assessment of damp-heat b/c of gb removal. As we know there are

such things as GB Qi deficiency and cold in the GB etc. I would just point out

that regardless of history, a proper assessment needs to be carried out each

time a patient visits rather than reflexively diagnosing something because it

" tends " to occur (though that may well be true).

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gallstones qualities: Cold and drying. So, I would gather, would be

qualities of Gall itself.

 

Removal of a Gall Bladder would tend to allow dampness and heat. Just a thought

 

 

 

Peter Pavolotsky

 

 

 

heylaurag <heylaurag (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Well,

who knows. A supervisor of mine that I talked to about her said

 

that, actually. I have 3 patients that had their gallbladders removed

 

right now, and they do all 3 generate dampheat--it seems to need to be

 

an ongoing part of their treatments, so it does seem to be true. I

 

think the idea is that without the gallbladder to deal with the

 

dampheat it gets stuck more easily.

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Guy Sedan "

 

<guysedan@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Hi there,

 

> Why do you think a removed gallbladder is an indication that " she is

 

always

 

> going to generate dampheat " ?

 

>

 

> She probably suffered in the past from damp-heat , but is the removal an

 

> indication that she will also in the future?

 

> Thanks

 

> Guy

 

> 2007/6/22, heylaurag <heylaurag@. ..>:

 

> >

 

> > . I have a patient who had her

 

> > gallbladder removed, so she is always going to generate dampheat. So

 

> > that's the first part of the story. She is also prone to insomnia and

 

> >

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>