Growing Chinese herbs

[Guest guest]

Hi, the following site, Plant It Herbs, is a mail-order nursery supplier of Chinese Herbs in the US. I bookmarked the site but don't know anything about them.

 

Catherine

 

 

http://plantitherbs.com

 

 

-

 

Anne & Sue

Chinese herb egroup

Friday, October 20, 2000 10:58 PM

Growing Chinese herbs

 

I posted this message a week or so ago under a misleading heading and only got one reply. So I am sending it again hoping for more! If I have little response I will know it has little relevance or interest to others!

 

re Cultivation of Chinese herbs in Australia

 

I am currently undertaking a feasibility study into growing Chinese herbs in Australia and would like some help with information:

1. Are any Chinese herbs grown outside Asia ie. Europe or America? If so with what success?

2. Are any Chinese herbs patents or other herb processing undertaken outside China/Asia?

3. Are all you Chinese herbalists suspicious of non-Chinese grown Chinese herbs?

4. What reassurance would you need to use herbs grown outside Asia? eg. the results of clinical trials or bio-chemical assays, or just someone you trust telling you they are OK to use.

5. Are you aware of any books/journals giving detailed horticultural and processing guidelines for Chinese herbs in English or Chinese?

6. What evidence is there of increasing contamination of Chinese grown herbal products similar to the fungicide on ginseng mentioned recently?

 

Any information or advice would be very welcome. Also thanks to everyone for the ongoing interesting discussions about everything!

 

Sue CochraneChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I recently spoke to a graduate of TCM from China who informed me that on the

front page of the China Daily(The official Engliosh version of the

newspaper) when he was there was a photo of some farmers in Yunan province

spraying DDTon the herb plot.The story went :that now the poor people of

this province were able to earn an income because of the growing export

market in Chinese herbs.My friend wrote a letter to the editor of the

newspaper advising that one thing that westerners liked about herbs was that

they were natural and suggested not using the sprays.Needless to say the

letter was not printed.

 

I am wondering if the freeze dried herbs that I use that go through a

supposedly refinment process also concentrate the sprays etc.

 

 

Heiko Lade

Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist

2 Jenkins St.

Green Island, Dunedin

New Zealand

Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012

http://www.lade.com/heiko

Email: heiko

[Guest guest]

Sue,

I have just returned to Beijing, having spent the past ten days traveling to herb growing areas in China. I have spoken at length with cultivators, local herb association managers, wholesale traders, and local and national policy makers. The market characteristics in China such as fluctuations in supply and demand, varied growing practices, potency, purity, and prices make your decisions about cultivation as a business somewhat complex. There are currently some significant changes being planned and implemented in stages that will affect most of these issues. The climate, soil, seeds, crop rotations, soil treatments, post harvest processing practices, and storage conditions can influence quality and yield. As one example, as you may know, cang er zi (xanthium sibiricum) contains a toxin called carboxyatractyloside. Apparently it is found to be a higher content in the cang er zi grown in nei mongol than the same plant sourced from Hebei. No one is sure why. Fortunately this toxin can be eliminated by certain processing practices. However it points out the potential for unforeseeable plant characteristics when growing in areas without historical precedent. The Chinese Gov't is concerned about the weakening of certain plant strains that are not as robust as they were several decades ago. They are instituting a program to revive these strains. Relevant to your interests, these weakened strains are in many cases herbs whose cultivation had shifted to other southeast Asian countries outside of China. One of the failures of cultivation attempts in China has been chai hu. No one has been able to successfully cultivate it so perhaps it might be interesting to see if it will grow under cultivation in your area. My two cents on your idea would be first, that I hope you do it and am interested to follow your progress, and second that, if you haven't already, you may want to consider doing a research plot that attempts a wide variety of plants to see what kind of response you get from mother nature. The PhytoMedical Research Institute in Beijing has analytical methods for an especially wide variety of Chinese herbs. They are not exactly a commercial lab but could probably be convinced to assess the potency of certain of your plants once you get a harvest. I can help you set that up if desired. Good luck!

 

Stephen

 

Anne & Sue [annedoia]Friday, October 20, 2000 11:59 PMChinese herb egroup Growing Chinese herbs

I posted this message a week or so ago under a misleading heading and only got one reply. So I am sending it again hoping for more! If I have little response I will know it has little relevance or interest to others!

 

re Cultivation of Chinese herbs in Australia

 

I am currently undertaking a feasibility study into growing Chinese herbs in Australia and would like some help with information:

1. Are any Chinese herbs grown outside Asia ie. Europe or America? If so with what success?

2. Are any Chinese herbs patents or other herb processing undertaken outside China/Asia?

3. Are all you Chinese herbalists suspicious of non-Chinese grown Chinese herbs?

4. What reassurance would you need to use herbs grown outside Asia? eg. the results of clinical trials or bio-chemical assays, or just someone you trust telling you they are OK to use.

5. Are you aware of any books/journals giving detailed horticultural and processing guidelines for Chinese herbs in English or Chinese?

6. What evidence is there of increasing contamination of Chinese grown herbal products similar to the fungicide on ginseng mentioned recently?

 

Any information or advice would be very welcome. Also thanks to everyone for the ongoing interesting discussions about everything!

 

Sue CochraneChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Elexir farms (http://www.elixirfarm.com/) sells seeds. Plant it farms

(http://www.plantitherbs.com/index.htm) sells plants you can transpant.

Robert Newman from California has traveled to China and brought back seeds

and Plants.

 

Different patents are made in the US and Canada, mostly in

California.Quality varies; the trick is to find out which brands are used by

major clinics. There are some hints on primary and secondary processing in

books you can get from blue poppy and redwing.

 

I have worked many chinese herbs; I have a technical background conducive to

this. Included in my concluded works are tienqi, luobouma , duzhong and

chinese scullcap.

 

Cheers,

 

Gilbert Arnold, Ph.D.

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

 

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com.

[Guest guest]

> stephen wrote:

>

> Sue,

> I have just returned to Beijing, having spent the past ten days

> traveling to herb growing areas in China.

 

Stephen,

 

How prevalent is the use of herbicides and pesticides on the herbal

crops in China?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

>

> > stephen@b... wrote:

> >

> > Sue,

> > I have just returned to Beijing, having spent the past ten days

> > traveling to herb growing areas in China.

>

> Stephen,

>

> How prevalent is the use of herbicides and pesticides on the herbal

> crops in China?

>

 

sadly, it is my understanding that this practice is now widespread on

valuable crops. Springwind herbs has been unable to find a supplier

of

ginseng that can supply a product with legal limits of a fungicide

called quintazene, I think. I would supsect that all ginseng on the

american market right now is contaminated. springwind has withdrawn

this herb until the situation is rectified.

 

[Guest guest]

, " heiko " <heiko@l...> wrote:

 

>

> I am wondering if the freeze dried herbs that I use that go through

a

> supposedly refinment process also concentrate the sprays etc.

 

everything gets concentrated in the process of making powdered

extracts, including any pesticide residue. However, since everything

gets concentrated equally, the amount of pesticide per dose of herbs

is

unchanged. this is because one uses a lower dose of these products

than with bulk herbs according to the concentration factor (which is

typically 5:1). So I use 12-15 grams per day of concentrates instead

of 75-100 grams of bulk.

 

Besides the concentration ratio, I also think concentrates are

prepared

much more carefully than home brewed decoctions, thus the actual

amount

of active constituents is actually higher than 5:1. Also, most such

concentrates, such as sunten, KPC, qualiherb, etc. are 100% water

extracts. since most agricultural chemicals are very soluble in

alcohol, but not as much in water (so they don't wash away in the

rain), the amount of pesticide residue in these concentrates may

actually be less than in the dry bulk herb (but perhaps about the

same

as the final decoction of said herb). This of course immediately

calls

into question the already questionable practice of making alcohol

extracts of chinese herbs for common usage. Not only does alcohol

alter the expected concentration ratios of active constituents

compared

to a water extract (thus altering herb function), but dramatically

increases the % of alcohol soluble agricultural chemicals in the

fianl

product.

 

These alcohol extract products are nevertheless probably safe in

clinical practice given that the recommended dose they are used at

provides little of anything besides alcohol in most cases. I believe

a

typical one ounce bottle of the most concentrated products of this

type

was prepared with only 30 grams of dry herb. these products are

designed to last a week or more, meaning the daily intake of herbs is

less than 5 grams. Compare that to the typical doses in any

classical

or modern herbal text (more like 50-150g per day) and one detects a

significant disparity that

can

only be explained away by resorting to the argument that pharmacology

has nothing to do with herbology.

 

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> Stephen,

>

> How prevalent is the use of herbicides and pesticides on the herbal

> crops in China?

>

 

Al,

The use depends on the crop. For some crops in certain areas, none are

used, especially for the bitter leafed plants that naturally repel pests.

One crop we saw was " guaranteed " to be chemical additive-free. However when

asked about the crop rotation they mentioned it was Winter wheat. And, when

further pressed, yes they did spray the wheat. Even when the local honchos

of the herb association promote certain growing practices, it is often up to

the actual farmer what to use, although it is sometimes monitored. The

restriction on the use of human waste in the compost was more rigorously

enforced. But it is allowed in the growing of vegetables. We learned that

part after complementing one group on how truly flavorful their vegetables

were. On the bright side, we are JV partners with the national level herb

management org and they have now taken control of the growing practices of

nearly 30 herbal materials and are planning on expanding this program to

include as many herbs a possible. In fact, in response to Todd's statement

about quintozene-free ginseng, we have been sourcing it for a couple of

years and the crop has continued to enlarge and mature. Phytomedical

Research Institute (PRI) can now provide substantial quantities. A large

part of the challenge of cleaning the chemicals out of Chinese herbs is that

growing practices are mostly localized, determined by the small farmer, and

even for the farmers that have converted to chemical-free growing practices,

the soils often contain residual chemicals for quite a few years. That was

the challenge with quintozene, to start over with clean soils and not just

to change the practices of existing farms. I have been and will continue to

push for and support the issue of herbal GAP (Good Agricultural Practices -

same concept as GMP for manufacturing), but have also offered a potential

natural alternative liquid fertilizer of which we have shipped large barrels

to China and are testing on some small plots.

 

Stephen Morrissey OMD

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

<Not only does alcohol alter the expected concentration ratios of active

constituents

<compared to a water extract (thus altering herb function)

 

I don't mean to be picking apart your emails in particular but what

information have you used as a basis for the above comment? I have

undertaken extraction and raw materials research for numerous Chinese herbs

and usually find that both water and ethanol solvents leave behind bioactive

components, although not the same ones, in the mark after extraction. In

China as well as other herbwise countries, the choice of extraction solvent

is based on the intended physiological target, especially if manufacturing

is undertaken for a well researched product.

 

Also a comment about the following opinion that you posted:

 

" these products (alcohol based extracts) are designed to last a

week or more, meaning the daily intake of herbs is less than 5 grams.

Compare that to the typical doses in any classical or modern herbal text

(more like 50-150g per day) and one detects a significant disparity that can

only be explained away by resorting to the argument that pharmacology has

nothing to do with herbology. "

 

shouldn't we consider how little it takes to stimulate metabolic,

energy transfer, or signal transfer pathways by influencing hormones and

neurotransmitters with well chosen and potent ingredients? Does the effect

of herbs have to reach some kind of action potential that can only be

reached with a 5 gram dose? Wouldn't it be reasonable to state that dose

response curves are different for each person and vary depending on the

condition and the particular herbs selected for treatment?

 

Stephen Morrissey OMD

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

> stephen

> [stephen]

> Wednesday, October 25, 2000 8:18 AM

>

> RE: Re: Growing Chinese herbs

>

>

>

> <Not only does alcohol alter the expected concentration ratios of active

> constituents

> <compared to a water extract (thus altering herb function)

>

> I don't mean to be picking apart your emails in particular but what

> information have you used as a basis for the above comment? I have

> undertaken extraction and raw materials research for numerous

> Chinese herbs

> and usually find that both water and ethanol solvents leave

> behind bioactive

> components, although not the same ones, in the mark after extraction.

 

Does the above answer the question? Herbs that have been 'intended' to be

water soluble, will be (many times) changed (different constituents more so

extracted or not) when alcohol is used. Therefore, altering the herb

function.. (?) a step further, looking at our discussion on da huang where

the cooking time changes the properties. So.. it seems like common sense

from a historical and biochemical perspective that extracting using alcohol

is going to yield stronger or lesser actions, if not completely changing the

function, when a water extract was/is intended.

Looking at the making of tinctures, (and possible extracts?) the ratios

(water: alcohol) are very defined to extract the so-called 'active

constituents' (for each herb, let alone formula). This of course becomes

hairy when there are multiple constituents desired, where some are more

water-soluble and others not. So a compromise must be made on the ratio. I

would assume if you then took it to either extreme (use high alcohol,

glycerin, or whatever), extracting more or less of the 'constituent', you

would have again a different action. Just babbling through a bunch of

thoughts, hope that was semi-clear... would like to hear what others think..

 

 

[Guest guest]

Check out the link to The Learning Garden,

 

www.thelearninggarden.org

 

Its a beautiful space cooperatively organized by Yosan

University, Venice High School, David Crow and other

local West L.A organizations. Lots of Chinese herbs,

Ayurvedic herbs, a qigong space, etc.etc.

 

The person to contact is David King, the garden

master. Im certain his info is on the website.

 

Best of luck,

 

Anton.

 

=====

 

 

 

 

 

 

Celebrate 's 10th Birthday!

Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

http://birthday./netrospective/

[Guest guest]

Hi Tricia,

 

Iv'e found that some of the seeds used in Chinese herbs have not been

sterilized and grow quite well. I get some of my herbs from Mayway.

Wolfberry seeds sprout real quite and are quite strong. I'm growing some

here in alaska.

 

Rozz

 

myenglishbike wrote:

>

>

> hi -

>

> i am a student at the school in denver, colorado and have organized a

> small community garden plot and a small group of faculty/students to

> experiment in growing chinese herbs.

>

> i am looking for advice, resources...really anything, any of you have

> to offer as we approach this endeavor.

>

> so far, this is where we are as we await spring...we have a plot at

> our local botanic garden community site and are planning to purchase

> our seeds from 'horizon herbs' out of oregon.

>

> thank you,

>

> tricia

>

>

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thank you anton - tricia

 

>Anton Borja <its_antonborja

>

>

>Re: growing chinese herbs

>Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:04:51 -0800 (PST)

>

>

>Check out the link to The Learning Garden,

>

>www.thelearninggarden.org

>

>Its a beautiful space cooperatively organized by Yosan

>University, Venice High School, David Crow and other

>local West L.A organizations. Lots of Chinese herbs,

>Ayurvedic herbs, a qigong space, etc.etc.

>

>The person to contact is David King, the garden

>master. Im certain his info is on the website.

>

>Best of luck,

>

>Anton.

>

>=====

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Celebrate 's 10th Birthday!

> Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

>http://birthday./netrospective/

>

>

>

 

_______________

Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

thank you all for the advice so far. it is much appreicated. -- tricia

 

 

>

>

>

> Growing Chinese Herbs

>Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:53:40 -0800 (PST)

>

>

>Tricia,

>

>Horizon Herbs is a great resource. Richo has been growing some of those

>herbs for many years and is strongly dedicated to growing plants. His

>catalog has abundant information regarding growing specific species and his

>little booklets are also good resources. I'm not sure if they are still in

>business, but Elixir Farms used to have a number of good seeds.

>

>Good luck,

>Thomas

>

>hi -

>

>i am a student at the school in denver, colorado and have organized a

>small community garden plot and a small group of faculty/students to

>experiment in growing chinese herbs.

>

>i am looking for advice, resources...really anything, any of you have

>to offer as we approach this endeavor.

>

>so far, this is where we are as we await spring...we have a plot at

>our local botanic garden community site and are planning to purchase

>our seeds from 'horizon herbs' out of oregon.

>

>thank you,

>

>tricia

>

>

>

>Celebrate 's 10th Birthday!

> Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had Schisandra growing in Florida, but we moved and I lost them. The

seeds came from a trade on www.gardenweb.com forums. Supposedly

Schisandra is difficult to germinate by seed, but I had no problem there.

I generally soak all my seeds in water before planting. There are quite a

few medicinal herb collectors on Garden web. I don't think male and

female plants are a real issue. There are many plants like that, papayas,

etc., you just grow a lot of plants and some of them yeild fruit and

others don't.

 

I wild harvest the following Chinese herbs from Central FL..

He Huan Pi/Hua

Sang Ye

Pi Pa Ye

Jin Yin Hua. I am experimenting with a 2 x tincture of that now. It's

really too much to gather that buy the pound, since the flowers are relatively

few.

 

I garden/farm Aloe vera,

HuoXiang.. both Pogostemon cablin & Agastage rugosa

He Shou Wu

Perilla

 

I have friends who harvest Houttuynia, the American teasel root, etc

herbs.

 

Single herbs used fresh are have the advantage of potency in treatment. A

friend was on Chinese herb formula after formula for Dampness and Spleen

Qi deficiency type pattern, and was craving dry desert conditions. She

didn't really have much luck with the formulas and the complaining was going on

for a couple of monthes. I suggested her to eat 1-3 of

her fresh patchouli leaves a day from her garden, and she wrote me that

a few days later that her digestive issues cleared immediately and

significantly. Still no problems.

 

Cory Trusty

http://chinesetherapeutics.org

http://chinesetherapeutics.org/catalog/