Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 In a message dated 11/18/2002 11:13:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, stephen writes: Anne, recent clinical research on hou pu using less than 325mg of an extract BID as an anxiolytic supports your postulation. Changes in cortisol and other clinical end points were statistically significant. Stephen, Thanks for this information. It is good to learn of research on small doses of herbs. -Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 I find that this flexibly of applying theory is much more common than we think - and not just from students. This idea that you can MSU is what attracts many people to this profession... >>>>>And by some of the best known Chinese Dr I have studied with as well The Chinese isn't that clear either, it is somewhat cryptic (I am currently re-translating various yin-fire sections for kicks) >>>>That is the point. Almost the entire medicine is written in such cryptic and highly arguable and open to interpretation ways. When an experienced practitioner runs repeatedly into questionable statements and proposed therapies what is one to do. Of course because TCM is such a reach medicine one can take the posture of I need to read 1000 more books before I can deal with clinical problems that do not respond to what one has been exposed to. Or take a more creative approach. The significance comes down to clinical response. I for one do not take the sudo religious approach assuming that the answer must be berried in the mountain of literature. I have to relay on the mainstream books and information from practitioners I have been exposed to. And deal with real patients every day. A flexible approach, especially as it had to do with acupuncture (or using needles) has taken me far beyond what I have seen otherwise. This has been confirmed by many students that have been using the same approaches. I too have some open questions on the Yin-fire interpretations and in discussions after discussions with Dr Bai Bian Zhu have even more. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 Alon, > I find that this flexibly of applying theory is much more common than we = think - and not just from students. This idea that you can MSU is what attr= acts many people to this profession... > >>>>>And by some of the best known Chinese Dr I have studied with as well= Maybe I am wrong, But I see a big difference here (if you are referring to = dr.'s MSUing)... The Chinese Dr.'s have a few advantages a) they know the la= nguage and can access much more literature and usually HAVE! b) this is exte= nded to there teachers, and schools which have a far deeper understanding of= the past and present TCM. - Our schools do not compare. (IMO) c) so their adaptations have a much higher probability of having a more sol= id grounding... This is much different than a pract that has studied in the = states, can't read, and makes something up on there own, based loosely on th= e something they heard or read. But I am not saying that Chinese dr.'s shou= ld be worshipped or the word taken as GOLD. > > > The Chinese isn't that clear either, it is somewhat cryptic (I am current= ly re-translating various yin-fire sections for kicks) > >>>>That is the point. Almost the entire medicine is written in such cryp= tic and highly arguable and open to interpretation ways. When an experienced= practitioner runs repeatedly into questionable statements and proposed ther= apies what is one to do. Of course because TCM is such a reach medicine one = can take the posture of I need to read 1000 more books before I can deal wit= h clinical problems that do not respond to what one has been exposed to. Or = take a more creative approach. The significance comes down to clinical respo= nse. This is true but a) how do you measure clinical response? (is this your personal judgment on= the situation?)- what about placebo? b) why deviate from the norm unless all exhausted mainstream approaches hav= e been tried... and since 95%+ OF tcm is not translated I think one's lack o= f results might just be lack of exposure – or maybe not... SO you are right = you might have to be creative if you can't get the job done... And in the me= an time you might just be re-inventing to wheel... I still believe that ther= e is a lot to learn from what has been written in the past and in the presen= t. I.e. Let's say you have a difficult case of X - you have exhausted all E= nglish resources. You might very find that in Chinese last year in some jour= nal there is a literary review of disease X and it says hey TCM does not off= er a valid solution - this is worthwhile to know, you can then be creative, = or it might say otherwise and give you something very Crisp and NEW to try w= ithin TCM. – if one has no access, then of course, do what you can. c)I do not consider TCM a reach medicine, and that it is all cryptic... In = this point in time, there is a somewhat clear and effective way to deal with= patients already mapped out. There is debate on issues, and always will be= , and this is good, but every day I believe with science, research etc, we w= eed out what is silly vs. efficacious and get closer to something better. Bu= t I could be naïve. d) no (d) > I for one do not take the sudo religious approach assuming that the answe= r must be berried in the mountain of literature. Nor do I, but there is a lot of very valuable stuff in that 95%. Especially= case studies. What if one said this same statement 15 years ago when there= where 5 or so books. Obviously within the last 10 years with the many trans= lations of articles and books that have come out our professional understand= ing of TCM in the WEST has sky-rocked. If everyone took your stance 15-20 y= ears ago, our medicine, IMO, would be laughable, especially herbally. Many = diseases would not have been able to be treated due to lack of understanding= /education and what would practitioners due, possibly start waving crystals = in 5-element patterns over the diseased body, and of course when you would t= hen talk to these practs doing the seminars they would brag about there succ= ess, and there flexible approaches to medicine based on TCM. Practitioners f= rom that time-period that have not kept up on the new ENGLISH info have such= a rudimentary and poor (IMO) understanding of TCM and herbs. > I have to relay on the mainstream books and information from practitioner= s I have been exposed to. And deal with real patients every day. of course, you can only do what you can do... but this is far from the poin= t of reading a book and making up theories and methods based on it without p= roper grounding - and publicly presenting it as a valid TCM extension - i.e = TCM says " this... " . I think that was my point... > A flexible approach, especially as it had to do with acupuncture (or usin= g needles) has taken me far beyond what I have seen otherwise. This has been= confirmed by many students that have been using the same approaches. Again this is nice, and I myself use very western style acupuncture techniq= ues at times that have nothing to do with TCM. But I am clear of what they = are and I do not say otherwise. One can always treat people anyway they lik= e to get results, let's just be clear on what is what... -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 how do you measure clinical response? (is this your personal judgment on= the situation?)- what about placebo? b) why deviate from the norm unless all exhausted mainstream approaches hav= e been tried... and since 95%+ OF tcm is not translated I think one's lack o= f results might just be lack of exposure – or maybe not >>>To this i go refer again to what one sees in china. And I prefer to say see not read. As far as evaluating results well here we have a very BIG problem that will take many years to answer. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 I believe with science, research etc, we w= eed out what is silly vs. efficacious and get closer to something better >>>No argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 Nor do I, but there is a lot of very valuable stuff in that 95%. Especially= case studies. What if one said this same statement 15 years ago when there= where 5 or so books. Obviously within the last 10 years with the many trans= lations of articles and books that have come out our professional understand= ing of TCM in the WEST has sky-rocked. If everyone took your stance 15-20 y >>I will never argue against more education and material. But you know I am actually quite suprised when I really think of how much real new information there is out there and most, although to a less quality, was given to me 20 years ago. In school and clinics in China alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 in 5-element patterns over the diseased body, and of course when you would t= hen talk to these practs doing the seminars they would brag about there succ= ess, and there flexible approaches to medicine based on TCM. >>>I do not know if you ever heard me talk by I always play down so called success. When ever I do an intervention I stress doing real testing before and after. Not just looking at ROM for example etc. As far as bragging I hear the same from many TCM Dr as well on things that I know do not work Alon Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 I went to my local HFS a long time ago and the man who works there was very knowledgeable. One thing he told me (that just doesn't seem right now that I am member here) is that I should not take more than three herbs at a time. The herbs I was buying were Slippery Elm, Echinacea, Mullein, and Fenugreek. I was only interested in taking the first three right away (I had a cold), so I assured him that I wouldn't be taking all four. Since most of the formulas contain combinations of more than three herbs, I figure this guy is wrong. Am I correct in this belief? Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 That sounds bogus. Maybe that guy was smoking some herbs. Many Many chinese herbal formulations contain multiple herbs (more than 3) as do Docs formulations. Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 He has the concept, but screwed it up a little. You can take more than 3 herbs at a time, but should not work on more than 3 issues at a time. Your body can only do so much healing at any given moment. But many times, if you focus on the main issue, other aspects will fall in line naturally. Michelle herbal remedies , " ypoonS1123 " <ypoons1123 wrote: > > I went to my local HFS a long time ago and the man who > works there was very knowledgeable. One thing he told > me (that just doesn't seem right now that I am member > here) is that I should not take more than three herbs > at a time. The herbs I was buying were Slippery Elm, > Echinacea, Mullein, and Fenugreek. I was only > interested in taking the first three right away (I had > a cold), so I assured him that I wouldn't be taking > all four. > > Since most of the formulas contain combinations of > more than three herbs, I figure this guy is wrong. Am > I correct in this belief? > > Samantha > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Wellllllllll, the funny thing about this Michelle, is that the body will most often decide for you what it thinks is the highest priority. ;-) Too often I've had clients who've said to me, "Hey Doc! You know I started handling that Liver condition and my warts disappeared" or some other like situation. Gets to be very hilarious at times. Love, Doc Doc Shillington727-447-5282Doc - Michelle herbal remedies Monday, July 24, 2006 7:11 PM Herbal Remedies - Re: Number of herbs He has the concept, but screwed it up a little. You can take morethan 3 herbs at a time, but should not work on more than 3 issues at atime. Your body can only do so much healing at any given moment. Butmany times, if you focus on the main issue, other aspects will fall inline naturally.Michelleherbal remedies , "ypoonS1123"<ypoons1123 wrote:>> I went to my local HFS a long time ago and the man who> works there was very knowledgeable. One thing he told> me (that just doesn't seem right now that I am member> here) is that I should not take more than three herbs> at a time. The herbs I was buying were Slippery Elm,> Echinacea, Mullein, and Fenugreek. I was only> interested in taking the first three right away (I had> a cold), so I assured him that I wouldn't be taking> all four.> > Since most of the formulas contain combinations of> more than three herbs, I figure this guy is wrong. Am> I correct in this belief?> > Samantha> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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