Guest guest Posted November 4, 2007 Report Share Posted November 4, 2007 hi steve, my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very important. perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially the " TMJ point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten hugely different results depending on how carefully i target the exact ahshi location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, the epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if i am sloppy and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at all. also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole holding pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's important to do physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as appropriate. if you're trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted neck work, masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the perspective of the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. forward). in my experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus task-focused massage work seems to produce far better results than either modality alone. for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang to relax muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, jaw, neck, etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " treatments. good luck! ~edith -- Edith Chan, L.Ac. Phone: 415.298.5324 www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99 wrote: > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He seems to > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing serious. he > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx is > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not doing > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, obviously could > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 I usually read in this forum and this is basically my first 2 cents here. Palpate for Ah-shi points around GB32-33. Usually GB31 treats SahoYang headaches so around GB32 it reseambles anatomical imaging for TMJ. Also conect GB6 to ST6 to cover the whole area of TMJ. Best. Antonio. Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, L.Ac. " <chineseherbs wrote: > > hi steve, > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very important. > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially the " TMJ > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten hugely > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact ahshi > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, the > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if i am sloppy > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at all. > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole holding > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's important to do > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as appropriate. if you're > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted neck work, > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the perspective of > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. forward). in my > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus task- focused > massage work seems to produce far better results than either modality alone. > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang to relax > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, jaw, neck, > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " treatments. > good luck! > > ~edith > > > -- > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > Phone: 415.298.5324 > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99 wrote: > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He seems to > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing serious. he > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx is > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not doing > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, obviously could > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost no pain at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only come in once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if I can find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, L.Ac. " <chineseherbs wrote: > > hi steve, > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very important. > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially the " TMJ > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten hugely > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact ahshi > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, the > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if i am sloppy > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at all. > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole holding > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's important to do > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as appropriate. if you're > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted neck work, > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the perspective of > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. forward). in my > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus task- focused > massage work seems to produce far better results than either modality alone. > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang to relax > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, jaw, neck, > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " treatments. > good luck! > > ~edith > > > -- > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > Phone: 415.298.5324 > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99 wrote: > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He seems to > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing serious. he > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx is > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not doing > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, obviously could > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one or 2 fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he can fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit one or two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 does not have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole area. Best. Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " <snydez99 wrote: > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost no pain > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only come in > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if I can > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > hi steve, > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very > important. > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially > the " TMJ > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten > hugely > > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact > ahshi > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, > the > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if i > am sloppy > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at > all. > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole > holding > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > important to do > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as appropriate. > if you're > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted neck > work, > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > perspective of > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > forward). in my > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus task- > focused > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > modality alone. > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang to > relax > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, > jaw, neck, > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " > treatments. > > good luck! > > > > ~edith > > > > > > -- > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He > seems to > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > serious. he > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx is > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not > doing > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, obviously > could > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work great for TMJ. Best regards, On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one or 2 > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he can > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit one or > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 does not > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole area. > Best. > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > <snydez99 wrote: > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost no > pain > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only come in > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if I can > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > hi steve, > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very > > important. > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially > > the " TMJ > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten > > hugely > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact > > ahshi > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, > > the > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if > i > > am sloppy > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at > > all. > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole > > holding > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > important to do > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > appropriate. > > if you're > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted > neck > > work, > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > perspective of > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > forward). in my > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus > task- > > focused > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > modality alone. > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang > to > > relax > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, > > jaw, neck, > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " > > treatments. > > > good luck! > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He > > seems to > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > serious. he > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx > is > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not > > doing > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > obviously > > could > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest would you give a point location or share where we can find them? Thanks. P.T. - Robert Chu Chinese Medicine Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM Re: TMJ Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work great for TMJ. Best regards, On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one or 2 > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he can > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit one or > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 does not > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole area. > Best. > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > <snydez99 wrote: > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost no > pain > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only come in > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if I can > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > hi steve, > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very > > important. > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially > > the " TMJ > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten > > hugely > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact > > ahshi > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, > > the > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if > i > > am sloppy > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at > > all. > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole > > holding > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > important to do > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > appropriate. > > if you're > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted > neck > > work, > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > perspective of > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > forward). in my > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus > task- > > focused > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > modality alone. > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang > to > > relax > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, > > jaw, neck, > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " > > treatments. > > > good luck! > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He > > seems to > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > serious. he > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx > is > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not > > doing > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > obviously > > could > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I've found in TMJ that the cervical spine is usually torqued, and so I always treat huaotojiaji on the subluxated side of any vertebrae to bring them into line, along with distal points such as SI3/BL60, TW5, etc. GB 20/BL10 also usually have a good effect as well. Try all of these along with the local points - BTW a great local point is GB 3, angled inferior behind the zyg arch. tends to release the temporalis and/or masseter. try GB 8 or trigger points around there as well. -Ben Hawes, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf2007 wrote: > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > Thanks. > P.T. > > - > Robert Chu > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > Re: TMJ > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work great for TMJ. > > Best regards, > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one or 2 > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he can > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit one or > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 does not > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole area. > > Best. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost no > > pain > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only come in > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if I can > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very > > > important. > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially > > > the " TMJ > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten > > > hugely > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact > > > ahshi > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, > > > the > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if > > i > > > am sloppy > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at > > > all. > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole > > > holding > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > important to do > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > appropriate. > > > if you're > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted > > neck > > > work, > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > perspective of > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > forward). in my > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus > > task- > > > focused > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang > > to > > > relax > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, > > > jaw, neck, > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " > > > treatments. > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He > > > seems to > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > serious. he > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx > > is > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not > > > doing > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > obviously > > > could > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi all, My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. Good luck! Best regards, On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > <ptf2007 wrote: > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > Thanks. > > P.T. > > > > - > > Robert Chu > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > great for TMJ. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > or 2 > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > can > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > one or > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > does not > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > area. > > > Best. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > no > > > pain > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > come in > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > I can > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith > Chan, > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > very > > > > important. > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > officially > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > gotten > > > > hugely > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > exact > > > > ahshi > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > ah shi, > > > > the > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > relief. if > > > i > > > > am sloppy > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > improvement at > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > whole > > > > holding > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > important to do > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > appropriate. > > > > if you're > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > targetted > > > neck > > > > work, > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > perspective of > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > forward). in my > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > plus > > > task- > > > > focused > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > Tang > > > to > > > > relax > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > zero, > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > the " full " > > > > treatments. > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > He > > > > seems to > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > serious. he > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > My Dx > > > is > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > tx not > > > > doing > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > obviously > > > > could > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Thank you. P.T. - Robert Chu Chinese Medicine Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:57 PM Re: TMJ Hi all, My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. Good luck! Best regards, On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > <ptf2007 wrote: > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > Thanks. > > P.T. > > > > - > > Robert Chu > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > great for TMJ. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > or 2 > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > can > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > one or > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > does not > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > area. > > > Best. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > no > > > pain > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > come in > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > I can > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith > Chan, > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > very > > > > important. > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > officially > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > gotten > > > > hugely > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > exact > > > > ahshi > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > ah shi, > > > > the > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > relief. if > > > i > > > > am sloppy > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > improvement at > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > whole > > > > holding > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > important to do > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > appropriate. > > > > if you're > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > targetted > > > neck > > > > work, > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > perspective of > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > forward). in my > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > plus > > > task- > > > > focused > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > Tang > > > to > > > > relax > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > zero, > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > the " full " > > > > treatments. > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > He > > > > seems to > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > serious. he > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > My Dx > > > is > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > tx not > > > > doing > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > obviously > > > > could > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi again, Another question if you don't mind... Are Tung points done ipsilateral or contralateral? Thanks. P.T. - Robert Chu Chinese Medicine Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:57 PM Re: TMJ Hi all, My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. Good luck! Best regards, On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > <ptf2007 wrote: > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > Thanks. > > P.T. > > > > - > > Robert Chu > > Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > great for TMJ. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > or 2 > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > can > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > one or > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > does not > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > area. > > > Best. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > no > > > pain > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > come in > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > I can > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith > Chan, > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > very > > > > important. > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > officially > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > gotten > > > > hugely > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > exact > > > > ahshi > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > ah shi, > > > > the > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > relief. if > > > i > > > > am sloppy > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > improvement at > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > whole > > > > holding > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > important to do > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > appropriate. > > > > if you're > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > targetted > > > neck > > > > work, > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > perspective of > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > forward). in my > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > plus > > > task- > > > > focused > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > Tang > > > to > > > > relax > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > zero, > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > the " full " > > > > treatments. > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > He > > > > seems to > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > serious. he > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > My Dx > > > is > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > tx not > > > > doing > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > obviously > > > > could > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Contralateral. Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf2007 wrote: > > Hi again, > Another question if you don't mind... Are Tung points done ipsilateral or contralateral? > > Thanks. > P.T. > > - > Robert Chu > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:57 PM > Re: TMJ > > > Hi all, > > My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... > > Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: > > Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St > channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Good luck! > > Best regards, > > On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > > > <ptf2007@> wrote: > > > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > > Thanks. > > > P.T. > > > > > > - > > > Robert Chu > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > > great for TMJ. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > > or 2 > > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > > can > > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > > one or > > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > > does not > > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > > area. > > > > Best. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > > no > > > > pain > > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > > come in > > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > > I can > > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith > > Chan, > > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > > very > > > > > important. > > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > > officially > > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > > gotten > > > > > hugely > > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > > exact > > > > > ahshi > > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > > ah shi, > > > > > the > > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > > relief. if > > > > i > > > > > am sloppy > > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > > improvement at > > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > > whole > > > > > holding > > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > > important to do > > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > > appropriate. > > > > > if you're > > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > > targetted > > > > neck > > > > > work, > > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > > perspective of > > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > > forward). in my > > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > > plus > > > > task- > > > > > focused > > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > > Tang > > > > to > > > > > relax > > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > > zero, > > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > > the " full " > > > > > treatments. > > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > > He > > > > > seems to > > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > > serious. he > > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > > My Dx > > > > is > > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > > tx not > > > > > doing > > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > > obviously > > > > > could > > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 --Hi Edith, Patient unfortunately only comes in once a week. Anyway, everything seemed to be tender when he came in, he takes muscle relaxers and is out of them. Anyway did ST-7, ST-6 and a tender pt between. He couldn't do more pts. Also, did neck & upper back wiht Ac & Tui Na. He did feel it! I wonder if muscle relaxors have something to do with lack of response? Anyway will find out what happened next Friday. Patient does PT twice a week instead of Ac, oh well? Might try Tung pts next time thanks for info, SteveIn Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, L.Ac. " <chineseherbs wrote: > > hi steve, > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is very important. > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? officially the " TMJ > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have gotten hugely > different results depending on how carefully i target the exact ahshi > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect ah shi, the > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic relief. if i am sloppy > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no improvement at all. > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a whole holding > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's important to do > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as appropriate. if you're > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with targetted neck work, > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the perspective of > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. forward). in my > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, plus task- focused > massage work seems to produce far better results than either modality alone. > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao Tang to relax > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point zero, jaw, neck, > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between the " full " treatments. > good luck! > > ~edith > > > -- > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > Phone: 415.298.5324 > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99 wrote: > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. He seems to > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing serious. he > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. My Dx is > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local tx not doing > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, obviously could > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Contralateral, but since it is bilateral pain you alternate. Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf2007 wrote: > > Hi again, > Another question if you don't mind... Are Tung points done ipsilateral or contralateral? > > Thanks. > P.T. > > - > Robert Chu > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:57 PM > Re: TMJ > > > Hi all, > > My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... > > Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: > > Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St > channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Good luck! > > Best regards, > > On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > > > <ptf2007@> wrote: > > > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > > Thanks. > > > P.T. > > > > > > - > > > Robert Chu > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > > great for TMJ. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > > or 2 > > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > > can > > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > > one or > > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > > does not > > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > > area. > > > > Best. > > > > > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > > no > > > > pain > > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > > come in > > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > > I can > > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > > > -- In Chinese Medicine , " Edith > > Chan, > > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > > very > > > > > important. > > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > > officially > > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > > gotten > > > > > hugely > > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > > exact > > > > > ahshi > > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > > ah shi, > > > > > the > > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > > relief. if > > > > i > > > > > am sloppy > > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > > improvement at > > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > > whole > > > > > holding > > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > > important to do > > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > > appropriate. > > > > > if you're > > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > > targetted > > > > neck > > > > > work, > > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > > perspective of > > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > > forward). in my > > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > > plus > > > > task- > > > > > focused > > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > > Tang > > > > to > > > > > relax > > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > > zero, > > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > > the " full " > > > > > treatments. > > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupuncture.com > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > > He > > > > > seems to > > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > > serious. he > > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > > My Dx > > > > is > > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > > tx not > > > > > doing > > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > > obviously > > > > > could > > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hello to all from the list. We have been doing an experiment in which for all problems of TMJ we inject 1ml of lidocaine 2% without vasoconstrictor at GB20, bilaterally with great improvement. My brother is a human neurosurgeon and i have adapted the treatment for cervical headache pain for TMJ and using the Acupoint to inject the lidocaine that they do in a trigger point for the headache. It is very safe and the results are on the same night. Do it and give me feedback. Greetings to all and for you Antonio. Jean Brazil. Jean G. Fernandes Joaquim DMV, MS ABRAVET, IVAS and IVAPM Member Botucatu - SP - Brazil F: 014-97083176 www.bioethicus.com.br antonioalf54 <antonioalf54 Chinese Medicine Sunday, November 11, 2007 10:41:47 AM Re: TMJ Contralateral, but since it is bilateral pain you alternate. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " <ptf2007 > wrote: > > Hi again, > Another question if you don't mind... Are Tung points done ipsilateral or contralateral? > > Thanks. > P.T. > > - > Robert Chu > > Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:57 PM > Re: TMJ > > > Hi all, > > My harddisk crashed and its hard to respond quicker... > > Antonio is correct, but another way to say it is: > > Cesanli is located at the level of St 36 but between the GB and St > channels; and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > Good luck! > > Best regards, > > On Nov 8, 2007 3:37 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Cesanli is located at the same level od ST36 but just in front of the > > fibula and bellow GB34, and 2 cun bellow Cesanli is Cexiasanli. > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " P.T. Ferrance " > > > > <ptf2007@> wrote: > > > > > > For those of us who are unfamiliar with the Tung points you suggest > > would you give a point location or share where we can find them? > > > Thanks. > > > P.T. > > > > > > - > > > Robert Chu > > > > > > Tuesday, November 06, 2007 9:13 PM > > > Re: TMJ > > > > > > > > > Try the Tung's points Ce San Li and Ce Xia San Li. They work > > great for TMJ. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > On Nov 6, 2007 3:39 AM, antonioalf54 <antonioalf54@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please try the points I suggested. Have the patient place one > > or 2 > > > > fingers in a vertical plane into his mouth and see how many he > > can > > > > fit.Do the points and ask him to try again, and if he can fit > > one or > > > > two more then you will see how it does work. Please try. ST6 > > does not > > > > have to be tender, by conecting to GB6 you will cover the whole > > area. > > > > Best. > > > > > > > > --- In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " snydez99 " > > > > > > > > > > > > <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -By local I mean ST7 & the area around it, patient has almost > > no > > > > pain > > > > > at ST6. Not looking at chart,but he actually has slight jaw > > > > > defpmity.Also, he is so wrapped in PT for this he can only > > come in > > > > > once a week. I was also thinking of Gua Sha to neck? I see if > > I can > > > > > find tender TMJ spot. Thanks Steve > > > > > > > > > > -- In Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Edith > > Chan, > > > > > L.Ac. " <chineseherbs@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi steve, > > > > > > my experience w/ TMJ is that the exact needle location is > > very > > > > > important. > > > > > > perhaps you can share what you mean by local points? > > officially > > > > > the " TMJ > > > > > > point " is located 1/2 way b/w St 6 and St7. But I have > > gotten > > > > > hugely > > > > > > different results depending on how carefully i target the > > exact > > > > > ahshi > > > > > > location. I find if I take extra time to find the perfect > > ah shi, > > > > > the > > > > > > epicenter of the muscle tension, it produces dramatic > > relief. if > > > > i > > > > > am sloppy > > > > > > and just get in the ballpark area, there may be no > > improvement at > > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > also, TMJ is almost always tied in w/ neck problems, it's a > > whole > > > > > holding > > > > > > pattern in the neck/head that needs to be addressed. so it's > > > > > important to do > > > > > > physical exam on neck and choose neck pain needles as > > > > appropriate. > > > > > if you're > > > > > > trained in Tui-Na or other bodywork, follow-up with > > targetted > > > > neck > > > > > work, > > > > > > masseter muscle massage plus gentle jaw stretch. (from the > > > > > perspective of > > > > > > the patient the direction of stretch would be down and sl. > > > > > forward). in my > > > > > > experience, the combination of carefully located needles, > > plus > > > > task- > > > > > focused > > > > > > massage work seems to produce far better results than either > > > > > modality alone. > > > > > > > > > > > > for herbs, how bout something simple like Shao Yao Gan Cao > > Tang > > > > to > > > > > relax > > > > > > muscle? Ear balls (relax muscle, shenmen, subcortex, point > > zero, > > > > > jaw, neck, > > > > > > etc.) can help to keep the therapy going in between > > the " full " > > > > > treatments. > > > > > > good luck! > > > > > > > > > > > > ~edith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Edith Chan, L.Ac. > > > > > > Phone: 415.298.5324 > > > > > > www.EdithChanAcupun cture.com > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/4/07, snydez99 <snydez99@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 35 male patient with TMJ on left side ST-7 area. > > He > > > > > seems to > > > > > > > have a slight mechanical problem with his jaw, but nothing > > > > > serious. he > > > > > > > gets temple HA's from this and has neck stiffness & pain. > > My Dx > > > > is > > > > > > > usual Qi & Bl stag with underlying Lv stag. Usual local > > tx not > > > > > doing > > > > > > > much, any ideas? Also, has anyone used herbs for this, > > > > obviously > > > > > could > > > > > > > do Xiao Yao Wan as a consitutional maybe add herbs? Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 My dd, age 17 has painful TMJ episodes. She has found relief with a therapist that does deep tissue massage and actually works with her jaw. She also uses Arnica cream to ease the pain. HTH, Leslie At 09:59 PM 12/26/2008, you wrote: I have suffered from tmj for years and find that going to the chiropractor has been the best therapy along with a antioxidant called opc3 don't know what it does but it seems to do the trick. My first time writing and want to thank you for all the information.Krys Leslie Montemayor We worry about what a child will be tomorrow, yet we forget that he is someone today. Stacie Tauscher The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work, and give to those who would not. -- Thomas Jefferson " Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. - Abraham Lincoln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 Massage is very helpful - especially trigger point release. Acupuncture is also helpful. Therapies that promote relaxation are a key element in relieving TMJ because those neck and jaw muscles are stuck in a cramping mode. Sarah Murdick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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