Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Fernando, From what you've said about the patient, it appears to me to be a spleen-kidney dual vacuity with qi stagnation and blood stasis, liver blood vacuity, and some sort of heat. Given the patient's age and her s & s, the choice seems to be between depressive heat and vacuity heat. If the qi and yang vacuity and the blood vacuity are predominant, than the tongue can be pale even though there is some smoldering heat. BTW, I would read the tongue crack as enduring spleen vacuity. Patients with liver depression and blood stasis who also have early menstruation often do not have bad PMS or dysmenorrhea. They would if their menses were coming on time or late. If my suppositions are correct, then the treatment principles would be to fortify the spleen and boost the qi, nourish the liver and invigorate the kidneys, move the qi and quicken the blood. If you can determine what kind of heat there is, then you would either resolve depression and clear heat or clear vacuity heat. Given the tendency to sinusitus, my vote would be for depressive heat until or unless you turned up any other s & s pointing in another direction. Also, I think you need to clarify whether or not yang ming fluids have been damaged and need treatment. In my experience, the tendency to early menstruation (yue jing xian qi) in a woman this age usually has to do with aging of the ovaries and a luteal phase defect. Typically, spleen-kidney dual vacuity palys a part in this condition with or without depressie or vacuity heat. Gotta go. Good luck, Bob , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > All, > > I need some help with a new patient who has been diagnosed with MS. > Here are some details: > > Patient is a female of 47 years of age who was diagnosed with > MS at the end of January of this year. Early symptoms included > visual blurring when turning the head to her left. No visual > disturbance by moving the eyes, only with head movement. > > Around the same time, she developed a terrible headache around > the occipital region. So bad was the headache that she felt like > " pulling her hair out " . She also experience fatigue, morning tiredness > and tremors on both hands. > > About the same time of the headache, she experience a strong dull pain > on her lower sacrum right above her coccyx. It felt like a bad bruise > but no heat sensation on this region. > > She feels very cold at night which is alleviated by blankets. No night > sweats nor spontaneous sweating. She is very thirsty drinking nearly a > gallon of water a day!. Her periods are between 24-27 days cycle, > scanty to normal and last around 4 days. Slight PMS but not severe nor > any cramping. > > Her tongue is pale with a crack in the middle which does > not reach the tongue's tip. There's some coating around the > crack which is a little off-white but not yellow. > Her pulse is week, irregular, slightly rapid and disappears > with pressure on the right hand and a little rapid. > > One morning in January she woke up and felt weak. Her legs > felt heavy and her gait was clumsy. By the end of the day she > had lost her ability to walk. She went to the Hospital and with MRI, > Cat Scan, and spinal fluid test, was diagnosed with MS. MRI showed > white matter on her occipital and around the region of the sacrum. > She has been on a wheelchair ever since and feels her legs are very > heavy and has no ability to move them. > > Her legs were very cold to touch and with some edema. Soon after > leaving the hospital she became unable to empty her bladder. > Medication did not help and currently she is on a catheter. She also > unable to tell when she has a BM. Doctors have prescribed Copaxon > which she injects. > > Patient has a chronic hx of sinusitis which often become infected. > She has been using antihistamines for over ten years. She takes around > 5 to 10 Sudafeds per day! > > This is my first time treating MS. I have done some research on Blue > Poppy, ITM's site and other sites dealing with MS and TCM. By enlarge, > most literature seems to point to some form of febrile disease as a > possible etiology. The thought is that the fluids have been damaged by > heat and thus sinews become malnourished. Other possibilities point to > a Sp/st xu, as well as Kd/lvr xu. And yet other believe some form of > damp heat as a possible factor. > > Here's my thinking and please, feel free to point to anything I may > not be seeing. Other than the slightly rapid pulse and the off white > tongue I do not see any serious heat on this lady; nor has she > complained of any sickness with fever. I do see some signs of spleen > xu by the fatigue and pale tongue. She does not have any viral > infections such as herpes although she did have chicken pox when > young. No vaginal discharge other than during ovulation. > > I'm thinking that her excessive abuse of antihistamines is what has > injured her fluids, affected her stomach qi, yangming channel and the > cause of the high thirst. Naturally, there's some reason for the > chronic sinusitis. The patient stated that if there was a person who > has abused over the counter meds, it was her. In discussing this case > with my wife, she pointed out that recently there was a report on the > news about athletes abusing Sudafed for more energy. This may be a > factor with her. > > As I recall on our last discussion on Benadryl, Bob Flaws pointed out > that this type of meds may scatter the Qi. I think this may be part of > the problem. > > I'm confused, though, with the tongue being pale. Tell me, is there a > difference between a tongue that reflects yin xu to one where the pt's > fluids have been damaged by excessive use of exterior releasing meds? > Should the tongue share a red color since there's not enough > yin/fluids to keep heat cool? Or could there still be a pale tongue > since her paralysis is on the lower body and the heat not reached and > damage the upper sinews yet? > > I have given the patient two acupuncture treatments both on the scalp > and on her legs. To her delight, she was able to move her toes and > raise her heel after the first treatment but only on the right leg. > I'm planning on using herbal rx, and supplements, but would like to > have a better picture before prescribing. > > What do you think? > > Thanks, > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Fernando, expanding on Bob's diagnostic treatment principles, I would suggest a combination of two formulas: Bu zhong yi qi tang and Yi guan jian. Eti >"pemachophel2001" > > > Re: Multiple Sclerosis >Thu, 07 Mar 2002 02:03:30 -0000 > >Fernando, > >From what you've said about the patient, it appears to me to be a >spleen-kidney dual vacuity with qi stagnation and blood stasis, liver >blood vacuity, and some sort of heat. Given the patient's age and her >s & s, the choice seems to be between depressive heat and vacuity >heat. If the qi and yang vacuity and the blood vacuity are >predominant, than the tongue can be pale even though there is some >smoldering heat. BTW, I would read the tongue crack as enduring spleen >vacuity. Patients with liver depression and blood stasis who also have >early menstruation often do not have bad PMS or dysmenorrhea. They >would if their menses were coming on time or late. > >If my suppositions are correct, then the treatment principles would be >to fortify the spleen and boost the qi, nourish the liver and >invigorate the kidneys, move the qi and quicken the blood. If you can >determine what kind of heat there is, then you would either resolve >depression and clear heat or clear vacuity heat. Given the tendency to >sinusitus, my vote would be for depressive heat until or unless you >turned up any other s & s pointing in another direction. Also, I think >you need to clarify whether or not yang ming fluids have been damaged >and need treatment. > >In my experience, the tendency to early menstruation (yue jing xian >qi) in a woman this age usually has to do with aging of the ovaries >and a luteal phase defect. Typically, spleen-kidney dual vacuity palys >a part in this condition with or without depressie or vacuity heat. > >Gotta go. > >Good luck, > >Bob > >, "fbernall" wrote: > > All, > > > > I need some help with a new patient who has been diagnosed with MS. > > Here are some details: > > > > Patient is a female of 47 years of age who was diagnosed with > > MS at the end of January of this year. Early symptoms included > > visual blurring when turning the head to her left. No visual > > disturbance by moving the eyes, only with head movement. > > > > Around the same time, she developed a terrible headache around > > the occipital region. So bad was the headache that she felt like > > "pulling her hair out". She also experience fatigue, morning >tiredness > > and tremors on both hands. > > > > About the same time of the headache, she experience a strong dull >pain > > on her lower sacrum right above her coccyx. It felt like a bad >bruise > > but no heat sensation on this region. > > > > She feels very cold at night which is alleviated by blankets. No >night > > sweats nor spontaneous sweating. She is very thirsty drinking nearly >a > > gallon of water a day!. Her periods are between 24-27 days cycle, > > scanty to normal and last around 4 days. Slight PMS but not severe >nor > > any cramping. > > > > Her tongue is pale with a crack in the middle which does > > not reach the tongue's tip. There's some coating around the > > crack which is a little off-white but not yellow. > > Her pulse is week, irregular, slightly rapid and disappears > > with pressure on the right hand and a little rapid. > > > > One morning in January she woke up and felt weak. Her legs > > felt heavy and her gait was clumsy. By the end of the day she > > had lost her ability to walk. She went to the Hospital and with MRI, > > Cat Scan, and spinal fluid test, was diagnosed with MS. MRI showed > > white matter on her occipital and around the region of the sacrum. > > She has been on a wheelchair ever since and feels her legs are very > > heavy and has no ability to move them. > > > > Her legs were very cold to touch and with some edema. Soon after > > leaving the hospital she became unable to empty her bladder. > > Medication did not help and currently she is on a catheter. She also > > unable to tell when she has a BM. Doctors have prescribed Copaxon > > which she injects. > > > > Patient has a chronic hx of sinusitis which often become infected. > > She has been using antihistamines for over ten years. She takes >around > > 5 to 10 Sudafeds per day! > > > > This is my first time treating MS. I have done some research on Blue > > Poppy, ITM's site and other sites dealing with MS and TCM. By >enlarge, > > most literature seems to point to some form of febrile disease as a > > possible etiology. The thought is that the fluids have been damaged >by > > heat and thus sinews become malnourished. Other possibilities point >to > > a Sp/st xu, as well as Kd/lvr xu. And yet other believe some form of > > damp heat as a possible factor. > > > > Here's my thinking and please, feel free to point to anything I may > > not be seeing. Other than the slightly rapid pulse and the off white > > tongue I do not see any serious heat on this lady; nor has she > > complained of any sickness with fever. I do see some signs of spleen > > xu by the fatigue and pale tongue. She does not have any viral > > infections such as herpes although she did have chicken pox when > > young. No vaginal discharge other than during ovulation. > > > > I'm thinking that her excessive abuse of antihistamines is what has > > injured her fluids, affected her stomach qi, yangming channel and >the > > cause of the high thirst. Naturally, there's some reason for the > > chronic sinusitis. The patient stated that if there was a person who > > has abused over the counter meds, it was her. In discussing this >case > > with my wife, she pointed out that recently there was a report on >the > > news about athletes abusing Sudafed for more energy. This may be a > > factor with her. > > > > As I recall on our last discussion on Benadryl, Bob Flaws pointed >out > > that this type of meds may scatter the Qi. I think this may be part >of > > the problem. > > > > I'm confused, though, with the tongue being pale. Tell me, is there >a > > difference between a tongue that reflects yin xu to one where the >pt's > > fluids have been damaged by excessive use of exterior releasing >meds? > > Should the tongue share a red color since there's not enough > > yin/fluids to keep heat cool? Or could there still be a pale tongue > > since her paralysis is on the lower body and the heat not reached >and > > damage the upper sinews yet? > > > > I have given the patient two acupuncture treatments both on the >scalp > > and on her legs. To her delight, she was able to move her toes and > > raise her heel after the first treatment but only on the right leg. > > > I'm planning on using herbal rx, and supplements, but would like to > > have a better picture before prescribing. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Fernando > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > Her pulse is week, irregular, slightly rapid and disappears > with pressure on the right hand and a little rapid. Fernando: Can you say more about her pulses? For instance, check the left middle zang position (Liver). Often you will find a feathery quality indicating dryness invading Lv; hence, the symptoms of visual disturbances, vertigo, and general sensitivity to heat. Plaques in the brain may sometimes be detected as choppy (Wiseman says " rough " , se) in the right proximal. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Hi Fernando, The pale tongue -in my opinion- emphazises blood-xu, which gives rise to some internal wind (tremors, dull headache) and also causes a malnourishment of the sinews, etc. As severe blood xu condition can of course lead to a weakening of the yin in the body and subsequent damage to the fluids. The deep crack in the middle often points to a constitutional weakness of the stomach, if it appears on a pale tonguebody it often denotes problems in the past with the stomach. However when it is covered by a coating, especially if it is dry and yellow , it reflects the development of some heat in the stomach. You say the coating is off white, if it is dry , I would interprete this as the beginning of some heat development , maybe due to the antihistamines. This development may account partly for the thirst. I feel you ought to nourish the blood (besides the suggestions from Bob) , I find herbs like Sang Ji Sheng, Ji Xue teng, Bai Shao etc very effective in cases like this. I do treat a lot of women with varying degress of severity of MS. In relation to herbal treatment I have found high dosages of the above mentioned herbs but also of Huang Qi, Du Zhong very effective. Best wishes Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Bob, Eti, Jim, Thanks for your input. I will consider your thoughts. Bob, your thoughts on the tongue and PMS helps me make a better assessment. I spoke to her doctor who said that he warned her years ago about the abuse of antihistamines. He told her that long term use would hurt her bones and would bring her great deal of pain. She did not take heed. Jim, I will look into the pulse at more depth. As I've admitted in the past, this is my weakest diagnostic tool. For some reason, I'm tone deaf when it comes to discerning subtle pulse qualities although I'm getting better with time and practice. Eti, I will look into your rx combination. BTW, how's your acne patient coming along? Thanks again, and will report back. Fernando > > Can you say more about her pulses? For instance, check the left > middle zang position (Liver). Often you will find a feathery quality > indicating dryness invading Lv; hence, the symptoms of visual > disturbances, vertigo, and general sensitivity to heat. Plaques in > the brain may sometimes be detected as choppy (Wiseman says " rough " , > se) in the right proximal. > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 I spoke to her doctor who said that he warned her years ago about the abuse of antihistamines. He told her that long term use would hurt her bones and would bring her great deal of pain. She did not take heed. >>>Before the diagnosis of MS? If yes were does he get this from? Its true that histamine seem to help MS patients. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 jramholz wrote: > Can you say more about her pulses? For instance, check the left > middle zang position (Liver). Often you will find a feathery quality > indicating dryness invading Lv; Is " feathery " another term for floating? " fu mai " ? If not, can you describe a feathery pulse? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Al: The feathery sensation is associated with dryness, in much the same way that hooked quality is associated with heat and heart, and wiryness with wind and liver. The sensation is well-named because it actually feels like the edge of a feather. This is a clinical observation from a greater proportion of MS cases- --it's the closest description I'm aware of in TCM. It is fairly unique to MS when it is in the left middle position; espeially when extending from the 4th ro the 2nd depths. Even my students in the school clinic who have not had any training in pulses are able to feel it when it's pointed out and if not hidden by stronger symptoms. The degree of the sensation is usually associated with the severity of the condition. From the perspective of the waveform, you can think of it as dryness invading the liver or an absence of dampness. There is an interesting association between the dryness, absence of dampness, and demyelination. The general 8-Prinicple findings already discussed are in the background. Jim Ramholz , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > jramholz wrote: > > > Can you say more about her pulses? For instance, check the left > > middle zang position (Liver). Often you will find a feathery quality indicating dryness invading Lv; > > Is " feathery " another term for floating? " fu mai " ? If not, can you describe a feathery pulse? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2002 Report Share Posted March 8, 2002 Dear Barbara, Thanks for your help! Fernando , BKirschb@a... wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > The pale tongue -in my opinion- emphazises blood-xu, which gives rise to some > internal wind (tremors, dull headache) and also causes a malnourishment of > the sinews, etc. As severe blood xu condition can of course lead to a > weakening of the yin in the body and subsequent damage to the fluids. The > deep crack in the middle often points to a constitutional weakness of the > stomach, if it appears on a pale tonguebody it often denotes problems in the > past with the stomach. However when it is covered by a coating, especially > if it is dry and yellow , it reflects the development of some heat in the > stomach. You say the coating is off white, if it is dry , I would interprete > this as the beginning of some heat development , maybe due to the > antihistamines. This development may account partly for the thirst. > I feel you ought to nourish the blood (besides the suggestions from Bob) , I > find herbs like Sang Ji Sheng, Ji Xue teng, Bai Shao etc very effective in > cases like this. > I do treat a lot of women with varying degress of severity of MS. In relation > to herbal treatment I have found high dosages of the above mentioned herbs > but also of Huang Qi, Du Zhong very effective. > Best wishes Barbara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 > > Dear Faculty, > I have a friend in Las Vegas that was just diagnosed > with Multiple Sclerosis. Does anyone know of any > acupuncturists practicing in the Vegas area that may > be able to help her? Please email back to me at > traciemassage > Thanks, > Tracie Livermore > traciemassage > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 , " Alex Berks " <aberks@e...> wrote: > > Does anyone know what is is Bushen Gu Sui tablet and if they are available in the US? > > Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi. 2001 Jan;21(1):10-4. > [Clinical and experimental study on multiple sclerosis with bushen gusui tablet] > from that article: Bu shen gu sui pian (supplement kidney secure marrow tablets): yin yang huo 15g rou cong rong 12g xian mao 10 sheng di 15 zhi shou wu 15 yu jin 10 dan shen 15 etc. (that's what it says) Made in 0.5g tablets, taken 6 at a time, 3 times per day. Regards, Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 http://www.webspawner.com/users/jansmsconquest/ a clean diet is essential follow the link above for my MS conquest story jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 There are several alternative protocols that actually have been validated by hard science. 1) Terry Wahls, who was referenced earlier, apparently did indeed largely reverse her MS with a mix of very green foods, and electrostimulation. 2) Terry Wahls has had public communications with another group, direct-MS.com. This group, started by a PhD geologist whose son had MS, came to the conclusion that there was strong scientific evidence that certain food groups either accelerated leaky gut syndrome, and/or then provided food particles into the body that resulted in an automimmune response. These food groups that should be eliminated are: legumes, dairy, and glutein products. In addition, they recommend a number of supplements, notably vitamin D. The total program has been called the 'Best Bet Diet'. Their website has a number of scientific articles as well as the specific protocol on supplements. 3) An Italian scientist recently made an astonishing discovery, that being that MS patients had a blockage in thier veins in their necks, whereas healthy people did not. The statistical chance of this occuring randomly was close to zero. This blockage is called 'CCVSI' which I believe stands for 'chronic cerebral venous insufficiency'. The scientist at 'direct-ms.com' has on his website stated that this is a phenomenal discovery as it could provide for a surgical and/or supllemental program to reverse that blockage. All of the other protocols referenced, as far as I know, have no scientific validation, although the LDN seems to have a large amount of anecdotal support. I never had MS, but I had an alarming constellation of symptoms, all of which were reversed by the BBD. Hope this helps. , " Lee " <rubyone wrote: > > Is there any alternative medicines to help people who have MS? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 see direct-ms.org. Read MS Recovery Diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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