Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 , " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...> wrote: > Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment of > late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs? Blue Poppy Press publishes at least two Research Reports on the CM treatment of uterine myomas. I know for sure #32 and #173 deal with this topic. Bob P.S. To the entire list, I just recently realized that some people have e-mailed me at the address I had to set up when I became a member of this group. I never check this address. So if anyone wants to e-mail me " off-list, " my address is: bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 I have found this condition to be successfully treated on manyoccasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 gramsper day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). >>>What do you mean by successfully treated Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 , " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...> wrote: > Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment of > late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs? I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 grams per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). I have never seen it resolve with patent meds unless they are superconcentrated to give a dose equivalent to this. Whatever else is going on, the branch often involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression and blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to address the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang may be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as the branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I would say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And this can be confirmed with s/s. Women in these cases usually have a history of liver depression which is evidenced with their menstrual patterns. And dark, distended sublingual veins are quite common to confirm blood stasis. (or maybe I just attract the livery ones!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many > occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 grams > per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). > >>>What do you mean by successfully treated based on ultrasound, fibroids were either reduced or disappeared. symptoms also went away such as pain and bleeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 based on ultrasound, fibroids were either reduced or disappeared. symptoms also went away such as pain and bleeding>>>>>I have seen many successes and failures. I have an acupuncture colleague hear is the bay area that did everything finally she was tired of being anemic and did surgery. By the way one of the first patients I had in privet practice had fibroids with a bleeding problem. She did very well on Sun Tian wen jing tang 6g per day, a fairly low dose. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Todd et al., Being a gynecological specialist, I have quite a bit of experience treating uterine myomas with CM. In addition, because so many women in the patient population I serve have uterine myomas, I consciously and deliberately make an effort to read as much in Chinese as I can on this topic. Based on my personal experience and my research of the Chinese literature, I think we need to be careful about the assumption that there is either blood stasis and/or phlegm nodulation in all cases of uterine myoma. This is a popular opinion among many Chinese doctors in China who, like many of us, have trouble keeping their apples and oranges in separate baskets. Many contemporary Chinese doctors assume that uterine myomas correspond to the traditional Chinese disease category of concretions and conglomerations (zheng jia) and, from there, make the assumption of blood stasis as a major, in some cases, omnipresent disease mechanism. However,it is debatable whether or not a myoma which is not palpable from the outside of the abdomen should, in fact, be classified as a concretion and conglomeration. In many women in their mid to late forties, the clinical symptoms of their uterine myoma are only lower abdominal downward sagging, fatigue, polyuria, and chronic leukorrhea. Typically, these patients present a spleen-kidney dual vacuity pattern. Most, in my experience, do not present clinically significant symptoms of blood stasis. Whether or not the leukorrhea qualifies as a sign of phlegm is a judgement call. There are arguments for seeing it merely as dampness. However, there are proemodern cites supporting this as a sign of phlegm. Other women in the same age group with uterine myomas mostly present with profuse mentruation or flooding and leaking. In this case, there is typically a spleen-kidney qi vacuity often complicated by some sort of heat evils. Frequently, in these women, there are also no marked signs or symptoms of blood stasis. What I am getting at here is that, in my experience and according to the famous contemporary Chinese doctor and gynecological specialist, Liu Feng-wu, the best approach to the CM treatment of uterine myomas is to base treatment on each individual patient's pattern and to not make any a priori assumptions about CM disease mechanisms. I have seen uterine myomas grow in response to blood-quickening therapy in patients who did not have the signs and symptoms of blood stasis, and for sure I have seen numerous myomas not shrink when treated for a disease mechanism the patient did not present. If anyone would like to read more about this topic, Liu Feng-wu has an excellent essay on exactly this subject in The Essence of Liu Feng-wu's Gynecology available from Blue Poppy Press. In fact, I picked this book for publication largely because of this signle important essay. In addition, many years ago, the Journal of the American College of TCM published an issue with two articles on the CM treatment of uterine myomas. One article was a clinical audit based on a standard blood-quickening formula. While a significant proportion of the patients in this study experienced some improvement, the cure rate was, if I remember correctly, significantly less than 50%. This article was followed by another by an author who was identified as " old Chinese doctor " so and so. His article emphasized that one should not treat myomas on the basis of any assumptions about blood stasis but rather should be based on the patient's personal presenting patterns. This old Chinese doctor's article took the form of case histories, in one of which the patient's myoma disappeared after the adiminstration of Liu Wei Di Hang Tang because the patient's clinical signs and symptoms were that of yin vacuity. (This article was seminally instrumental in my own development as a doctor of CM.) If a uterine myoma is diagnosed by bimanual palpation and/or ultrasound but the myoma is not palpable from the outside of the abdomen alone, then, according to the logic of CM disease diagnosis (bian bing), the woman's CM disease is not necessarily zheng jia but may be dai xia (abnormal vaginal discharge), yao tong (low back pain), fu tong (abdominal pain), duo niao (profuse urination), beng lou (flooding and leaking), or some combination of these. Just as not all Chinese doctors practicing in the U.S. are equally knowledgable or skilled, not all Chinese doctors in China are equally educated and intelligent. Point being, there are some common assumptions among mediocre Chinese practitioners in the PRC which are not necessarily correct, and one has to be very careful about accepting whatever a native Chinese doctor says as gospel. While some may argue that this undercuts the utility of reading the Chinese medical literature from China, I believe it argues for exactly the opposite. Unless one reads that literature widely, one may come across a single point of view which may or may not be correct. It is only by reading widely that one comes to see that there is a multiplicity of views and begins to be able to judge the merits of each one. Currently, our English language literature has been created mostly by accident, meaning that the selection of specific books and articles for publications has been relatively serendipitous. One of the benefits of erudition is a more panoramic view of the field, and it is only by seeing all the possibilities that one can then deliberately judge and choose. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...> wrote: > > Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment of > > late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs? > > I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many > occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 grams > per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). I have never seen it > resolve with patent meds unless they are superconcentrated to give a > dose equivalent to this. Whatever else is going on, the branch often > involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually > involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu > yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression and > blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to address > the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic > recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have > described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang may > be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as the > branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I would > say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And > this can be confirmed with s/s. Women in these cases usually have a > history of liver depression which is evidenced with their menstrual > patterns. And dark, distended sublingual veins are quite common to > confirm blood stasis. (or maybe I just attract the livery ones!) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 beng lou (flooding and leaking), >>>Usually the only problem that really needs treatment Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: Based on my personal experience and my research of the > Chinese literature, I think we need to be careful about the assumption > that there is either blood stasis and/or phlegm nodulation in all > cases of uterine myoma. Bob No one appreciates the points you made in your post more than me. My pet peeve is knee jerk reactions in TCM diagnosis (like nightsweats = yin xu). I think everyone needs to take to heart the very important points you raised. I am not an GYN specialist, but I have been personally involved in the successful treatment of about 30 cases over the years. I tried to make the point in my post that pattern diagnosis was of utmost importance. And that in the cases I was referring to, blood stasis was justified not by the mere presence of fibroids, but by signs and symptoms. So while I have no doubt that you are correct about the occurrence of fibroids without blood stasis, the vast majority of cases I have seen do involve such a pattern. If anyone took my post to mean that one should treat fibroids always as blood stasis or phlegm, that was not my intention. However, in the event that your patient presents with liver spleen disharmony and blood stasis, my only point was that I have found xue fu zhu yu tang a useful base formula. If you cannot justify blood stasis, then I certainly do not advise treating fibroids as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 The palpable uterine fibroids which present with signs of blood stasis can really start bleeding during periods depending on how they are treated with blood movers. I once thought, in my ignorance, that the profuse material with clots that exited during menstruation might mean that the fibroid was dissolving. (How else does it go away-does the body just re-absorb it?)I more recently learned that those are fibroids in the endometrium itself, as opposed to the intramural (in the muscle wall) fibroids. The bright red blood with clots indicates the fibroid is disrupting the small arteries that feed the endometrium. So while blood movers may be appropriate depending on presentation, it's good to back them off right before the period (2 to 3 days). San Qi and Yunnan Bai You are used during the period in some cases, (heavy bleeding, but with sharp stabbing cramps and signs of stagnation)as they both unblock stasis and stop bleeding. In my limited experience, I've been pleased incorporating those herbs during menstruation. Whatever else is going on, the branch often > involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually > involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu > yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression and > blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to address > the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic > recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have > described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang may > be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as the > branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I would > say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And > this can be confirmed with s/s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 So while blood movers may be appropriate depending on presentation, it's good to back them off right before the period (2 to 3 days). San Qi and Yunnan Bai You >>>>Wu ling zhi pu huang are a nice combo for this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Ariel, You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion, usually have underlying vacuity conditions. Much of the time, however, it is accumulation of cold evil in the lower burner, not qi vacuity, that is the issue, and warm medicinals such as rou gui, wu zhu yu and fu zi are required to treat them. As you point out, qi supplementing medicinals may aggravate the condition unless clear qi vacuity signs exist. Another pattern to consider with fibroids is disharmony of the chong and ren, which uses a he fa/harmonization method. Look at prescriptions such as wen jing tang and shao fu zhu yu tang that are often used in patients with fibroids. They have lots of warming medicinals in them.. . . On Jun 11, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > I was taught that fibroids are excess conditions. I find in my > practice, however, that fibroids are usually excess conditions with an > underlying deficiency. In cases where the fibroid is primarily > dampness, I find a good deal of spleen qi deficiency. I cases where > there is blood stagnation, there is usually some combination of > speen qi > def/ liver blood def. In cases where there is qi stagnation, I find > there is often liver blood and/ or yin deficiency. > > Even in mixed cases, I hesitate to add tonic herbs to formulas like > Gui > Zhi Fu Ling Tang for fear of creating more stagnation. I am concerned, > however, that without addressing the underlying deficiencies, herbal > treatment will actually create larger problems in the long run. > > I am wondering what other people's experiences with mixed def/ excess > fibroids have been. Has anyone used more balanced moving/ nourishing > formulas with success? > > Thanks! > Ariel > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 It could be a chicken and egg kind of problem. On the one hand, its possible aetiologically for Spleen Qi and Liver Blood Def to lead to blood stasis in the uterus - but on the other hand, if a woman has had uterine fibroids for a long time and this blood stasis has lead to heavy and prolonged menstrual bleeding for many years, its entirely possible that the Spleen Qi Def and Liver Blood Def you are observing is a secondary effect of the ongoing tremendous loss of Blood over many years. So it can get difficult to tease that what has led to what out of the situation. Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Ariel, > You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion, > usually have underlying vacuity conditions. Much of the time, > however, it is accumulation of cold evil in the lower burner, not qi > vacuity, that is the issue, and warm medicinals such as rou gui, wu > zhu yu and fu zi are required to treat them. As you point out, qi > supplementing medicinals may aggravate the condition unless clear qi > vacuity signs exist. Another pattern to consider with fibroids is > disharmony of the chong and ren, which uses a he fa/harmonization > method. > > Look at prescriptions such as wen jing tang and shao fu zhu yu > tang that are often used in patients with fibroids. They have lots of > warming medicinals in them.. . . > > > On Jun 11, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > > I was taught that fibroids are excess conditions. I find in my > > practice, however, that fibroids are usually excess conditions with an > > underlying deficiency. In cases where the fibroid is primarily > > dampness, I find a good deal of spleen qi deficiency. I cases where > > there is blood stagnation, there is usually some combination of > > speen qi > > def/ liver blood def. In cases where there is qi stagnation, I find > > there is often liver blood and/ or yin deficiency. > > > > Even in mixed cases, I hesitate to add tonic herbs to formulas like > > Gui > > Zhi Fu Ling Tang for fear of creating more stagnation. I am concerned, > > however, that without addressing the underlying deficiencies, herbal > > treatment will actually create larger problems in the long run. > > > > I am wondering what other people's experiences with mixed def/ excess > > fibroids have been. Has anyone used more balanced moving/ nourishing > > formulas with success? > > > > Thanks! > > Ariel > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Ariel, > You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion, > usually have underlying vacuity conditions. Z'ev is absolutely right with his observations here. There are some good articles on uterine fibroids on the Blue Poppy blog, at: http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/09/uterine-myomas-ebm-aamp\ -chinese-medicine and http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/10/uterine-fibroids-and-tc\ m Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 Anyone know what to do to eliminate fiboids? A friend is facing uterus removal if there is no solution. thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 Hello, I am so glad that to be on this board today as I rarely get a chance to, so I can answer your post. Dr. Ronald Hoffman (on Health Talk radio show 570 am) was talking about EGCG green tea extract as a treatment for uterine fibroids. I found this article for you. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=112724 My prayers for your friend. Thanks , Michael Forrest <a57ngel wrote: > > Anyone know what to do to eliminate fiboids? A friend is facing uterus removal if there is no solution. thanks in advance > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2010 Report Share Posted March 3, 2010 In Jin Shin Jyutsu, there is an 'application' that is of particular help with this project. If you are not familiar with Jin Shin Jyutsu, you could get help from doing this combination: the main central, which you find here : http://jsjinc.net/pagedetails.php?id=maincentral-flow AND holding index and little finger, one at a time, one hand at a time. (if someone else holds, he can meanwhile hold the first thoracic (lower neck) with the other hand). I have heard cases that completely solved the case. Focus on the position step 3 : sternum (hold longer than the other steps) ___________________________ Another good hold for uterus is sandwiching the ankles (one hand on outer ankle, one on the inner). When you apply on yourself, there is no time limit. When friends treat, then no longer than one hour, and leave 8 hours between treatments. Don't press, just hold. Hope this might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.