Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 of all the fibro cases that I have seen ........there is always a component of grief with a history of death of a close spouse /child etc .I actually forget about there aches and pains ....presribe according to other general symptoms eg blood stasis /xu etc and points like lu 7 to express grief etc. Heiko Lade Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist 2 Jenkins St. Green Island, Dunedin New Zealand Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 http://www.lade.com/heiko Email: heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Jeffrey, the first thing one should look at when attempting to create and restore balance and harmmony in a patient presenting with the broad western disease category " fibromyalgia " , is restoring and returning the seed of order in the midst of chaos. The acupuncture and herbs, when administered in accordance with a concise TCM diagnosis, can supplement a lifestyle change, which is sorely required in most cases. remember that ultimately the goal is to emphsize regulating the individual's circadian rythms so they are able to sleep, eat, digest, rest and function. The regulation of the body's circadian rythms is discussed in the book " Hara diagnosis - Reflections on the sea " by Matsumuto and Birch. In my clinical observation, I have seen that patients with fibromyalgia are helped greatly by our medicine as part of an overall program which encompasses dietary changes, exercise, Qi Gong, Tui Na. Look for environmental toxins the patient is using such as perfumes, hygiene products, soaps, detergents... I know this is a tangent, I thought these comments may be helpful to you. Eti Domb Quoting Jeffrey Goodman LAc <alhim227: > I am interesting in starting a string to discuss treatment strategies > for fibromyalgia. And I would like to say at the outset that > fibromyalgia is not my diagnosis, rather it is the one they come in > with. I am not interested to have a debate about the question of what > is the real medicine, simply some discussion of treatment strategy. > Specifically I am interested to know what people have tried with > respect to formulas which are helpful to decrease the pain sx's and > improve sleep patterns. Sleep disturbances seem to be a common > component of the presentations. In my clients there seems to be a > consistant pattern of dampness, liver qi stagnation and lingering > heat, > spleen xu, perhaps we could say " Heart and Kidney not communicating. " > Unresolved issues from earlier in life, with some chronic > resentments. > Moving blood does not seem to work well for pain with these types, so > how does one effectively move dampness to reduce pain? Tonification > seems important for chronic types such as these, but I find that > there > is often significant difficulty with taking herbal formulas due to > the > weakness in the digestion. There frequently seems to be an > environmental sensitivity problem as well. Reactions to perfumes, > chemicals, bad air, obnoxious persons and situations, etc. Are some > herbs more likely to set off such types of problems? > > Also I heard from one of my clients that 60% of women with a > diagnosis > of fibromyalgia were sexually abused when younger, compared with > stats > of 30-35% of the female population in general in the US. Can anyone > comment on this? How do the emotional and psychological factors > effect > the course of treatment, and are they relevant for the herbal > strategy? > I generally would describe the condition as one in which there are > " permeability issues, " problems with boundaries and weakness in > relation to life. From this perspective I would like to say that > there > is some Small Intestine, and Pericardium involved, but this would not > be a Standard TCM sort of viewpoint. > > My practise typically involves acupuncture and herbs, understanding > psychological factors is almost always a key to effective treatments. > My herbal skill is not equal to my acupuncture, and I am interested > to > know what people have to comment on the emotional and spiritual > dynamic > of specific herbs and formulas. Is there anyone who is doing research > or who can recommend good sources for such information? I understand > it > to be a basic premise of this medicine that the mind and body are the > manifestation of a single indivisible phenomenon but sometimes it > seems > that this principle gets short changed in the parameters of the > diagnostics. > > > > ------ > Go to Expedia.com to win airfare to Vegas for you and 20 friends, > $15,000 and a suite at Bellagio for New Year's. Or win 2 roundtrip > tickets anywhere in the U.S. given away daily. Click here for a chance win. > http://click./1/5295/9/_/542111/_/960441906/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 I have treated allot of fibromyalgia patients and I also agree that treating based on their TCM diagnosis constitutionally has been much more effective than uning qi or blood moving pain treatments. I have seen few similar patterns. Everyone is so different. I do see some trends of damp and blood deficiency here in the Northwest. What I have found is that strong treatments don't seem to work for me. I use few needles, small gauge, little stimulation or short treatment times. I have found that what seems to be the biggest marker of whether they will improve or not is 1. exercise: they must do it if it only means small amounts at first. I have a great yoga instructor who works well with chronic pain who has done miracles with my patients 2. Are they going to deal with the emotional baggage? Are they in therapy or do they have some constructive way to work with this part of their lives? If they are in denial, hopefully acupuncture will help bring them to a place where they can look at some of these things. If they are not willing or ready to go there, than I don't seem to get much farther than pain management. I treat there sleep problems and if I'm not helping, I believe there is a time and place for sleep medications. I have seen sleep alone turn some cases around. Herbally I have used for the appropriate diagnoses: baishao gancao tang, xiao yao san, ge gan tang modified without the mahuang, and chase wind penetrate bone (golden flowers version of Zhui Feng Tou Gu Wan). All these have been successful for me with various patients and other patients seem to get worse on any herbs, but acupuncture alone works well. In my opinion, lifestyle, emotional examination and stress management are key. I feel like half our job with fibromyalgia is education. Christina Jackson, L.Ac. Tiger Mountain Acupuncture Issaquah, WA 98027 425-557-9519 - heiko <heiko Thursday, June 08, 2000 3:11 AM Re: Fibromyalgia > of all the fibro cases that I have seen ........there is always a component > of grief with a history of death of a close spouse /child etc .I actually > forget about there aches and pains ....presribe according to other general > symptoms eg blood stasis /xu etc and points like lu 7 to express grief etc. > > Heiko Lade > Registered Acupuncturist / Chinese Herbalist > 2 Jenkins St. > Green Island, Dunedin > New Zealand > Tel: (03) 488 4086, Fax: (03) 488 4012 > http://www.lade.com/heiko > Email: heiko > > > ------ > Take 20 friends to Vegas on New Year's courtesy of Expedia.com. > Win the airfare, a suite at Bellagio and $15,000. Or win 2 roundtrip > tickets anywhere in the U.S. given away daily. Click for a chance to win. > http://click./1/5294/9/_/542111/_/960459363/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2000 Report Share Posted June 15, 2000 In a message dated 6/15/2000 5:17:51 PM Atlantic Daylight Time, jwhelp writes: << www.4liferesearch.com/slancaster >> Why are we getting ads like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Hi Ken How old is your patient and how long has she had fibromyalgia? According to Flaws, et al, in Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases With (highly recommended) there are usually several components in fibro which are: Liver Spleen disharmony; Qi and Yin vacuity with Liver depression and fire effulgence; Spleen-Kidney yang vacuity with Liver depression; Spleen Qi and Yin and Yang vacuity with Vacuity Heat and Liver Depression; Damp Heat; Phlegm Nodulation; and Blood Stasis. Usually, there is more than one of the above involved and the pattern can careen back and forth as the body attempts to resolve opposing pathogens (like yin xu and damp heat). You are right, I would say, to treat them differently each time according to what you see at the moment. If it was an injury which touched off the syndrome to start with, seems to me that Blood Stasis is at the root but, as we all know, if blood stasis is not promptly resolved, all the other patterns will begin to appear and murk up the waters pretty quickly. Hopefully, these patients are not too far into the disease process. I haven't had so much experience yet with fibro (2 patients, one early on who no longer comes, had a 10 year history, and I blame my lack of experience and lack of good books; one who, after 3 months of treatment, had complete remission for about 18 months and is now back due to over-working/drinking/smoking which has led to her current flare up.). With her, we get great results with twice weekly treatments. She likes to come often claiming it helps her get done with it quicker. I would not consider her a " very severe " case and she presents mostly with the Damp Heat/Qi Stagnation variety, of course Sp Qi xu in there as well. Hope this gives you some food for thought and good luck with your patient. Regards, Shanna , " krhkempo " <krhkempo@a...> wrote: > Could anyone tell me whether they have had a similar experience: > I have a couple of diagnosed fybromyalgia patients, each of whom > are reporting the experience of regressing through their illness > after 4 treatments. They initially feel better and then get worse. > One actually reported that she felt as if she were back at the time > of the onset of her illness which began after 2 consecutive car > accidents. They have made no other change in their routines nor > medication. > It is very disconcerting yet seems almost appropriate to their > initial presentation. However, I don't want to arrogantly ignore this > progression. I have been using shallow needling with a minimum of > small gauge needles. I have avoided herbs due to their apparent > intense response to gentle treatment. > Has anyone had this experience and if so how have you seen it > progress?What treatment methods have you employed?Anything out of the > ordinary? > > Ken Hoffman, D.Ac, L.Ac, CCH > Arcadia Health Center > 499 Federal Rd > Brookfield, CT 06804 > 203-740-9300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 There is a large grey area between total cure and palliation. The Nan Jing-based system I learned (that was inspired by Michael Broffman's work) looks at chronic diseases as having a specific course of multi-factorial development (including, as you mentioned, taxation, diet, overuse of medications). The long, protracted course allows the condition, such as fibromylagia to become firmly entrenched over time. Once 'the ball gets rolling', slow degeneration of a person's condition may continue unchecked over several years. Medical intervention, whether biomedical, Chinese, or naturopathic, can attempt to reverse the course of disease, stay the course and prevent further degeneration or fail to work at all. While I agree that a 'holding pattern' is not the best outcome, preventing further degeneration of a person's condition is certainly good medicine, if total cure is not possible. Sometimes the person's correct qi is so damaged that a complete reversal is not possible. A long life with a manageable disease is certainly preferable. Already biomedicine is looking at diabetes, and even cancer, in terms of long-term maintenance strategies. This may be appropriate with fibromyalgia as well. The advantage of a 'time-line' approach to illness is that one can make long-range treatment and lifestyle plans for one's patients, including the factors of individual constitution, climate, seasons, diet, exercise-lifestyle, and flexible treatment plans of herbs and acupuncture. Then one can see if one is really helping the patient or not, and save them time and money if treatment is not truly effective. Too many practitioners are treating patients over extended periods without a 'game plan', other than doing treatments every week and changing herb formulas based on symptoms. This is one area that needs to be addressed by education, including post-graduate seminars. On Jul 15, 2004, at 9:06 AM, wrote: > > I agree. And would add that the majority of cases fit into this > group. TCM can provide > noniatrogenic palliation, but not cure this illness in most cases. > However that is still a > better outcome than no tx or WM tx. There is a therapy which is > supposedly successful > using a bizarre combination of drugs to trick the brian into a reset > mode. Supposedly it > works for a huge number of people, but the one person I know who has > gotten long term > palliative relief from this approach has not been relieved of her > condition either. She uses > the meds to allow her to maintain the same 70 hour per week work > schedule that probably > was a major factor in her illness. Taxation is a major cause of > illness in the US, right up > there with being fat. Unless people eat right, exercise and get > adequate rest, we are really > spinning our wheels. How many of you promise more energy to patients > who eat poorly > and don't rest? This is disingenuous at best. However it has become > a point of contention > between myself and several interns, whose attitude seems to be that > they will never make > a living unless they promise relief to all patients regardless of > lifestyle and thus rope them > in to endless treatments. I don't blame them. Just about every L.Ac. > I know who makes > more than 100 grand a year from private practice operates this way. > thoughts? For one > who went into the field to change society, not personal gain, this is > disturbing news > indeed. Another harbinger of the eventual demise of the independent > acupuncture > profession unless there is an attitude shift away from faith based > prosetylizing and > towards controlled clinical research. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Z'ev- This is a wonderful post with a very important message. Developing a management and treatment plan is critical. -Brandt , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > The advantage of a 'time-line' approach to illness is that one can > make long-range treatment and lifestyle plans for one's patients, > including the factors of individual constitution, climate, seasons, > diet, exercise-lifestyle, and flexible treatment plans of herbs and > acupuncture. Then one can see if one is really helping the patient or > not, and save them time and money if treatment is not truly effective. > Too many practitioners are treating patients over extended periods > without a 'game plan', other than doing treatments every week and > changing herb formulas based on symptoms. This is one area that needs > to be addressed by education, including post-graduate seminars. > > > > On Jul 15, 2004, at 9:06 AM, wrote: > > > > > I agree. And would add that the majority of cases fit into this > > group. TCM can provide > > noniatrogenic palliation, but not cure this illness in most cases. > > However that is still a > > better outcome than no tx or WM tx. There is a therapy which is > > supposedly successful > > using a bizarre combination of drugs to trick the brian into a reset > > mode. Supposedly it > > works for a huge number of people, but the one person I know who has > > gotten long term > > palliative relief from this approach has not been relieved of her > > condition either. She uses > > the meds to allow her to maintain the same 70 hour per week work > > schedule that probably > > was a major factor in her illness. Taxation is a major cause of > > illness in the US, right up > > there with being fat. Unless people eat right, exercise and get > > adequate rest, we are really > > spinning our wheels. How many of you promise more energy to patients > > who eat poorly > > and don't rest? This is disingenuous at best. However it has become > > a point of contention > > between myself and several interns, whose attitude seems to be that > > they will never make > > a living unless they promise relief to all patients regardless of > > lifestyle and thus rope them > > in to endless treatments. I don't blame them. Just about every L.Ac. > > I know who makes > > more than 100 grand a year from private practice operates this way. > > thoughts? For one > > who went into the field to change society, not personal gain, this is > > disturbing news > > indeed. Another harbinger of the eventual demise of the independent > > acupuncture > > profession unless there is an attitude shift away from faith based > > prosetylizing and > > towards controlled clinical research. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > There is a large grey area between total cure and palliation. The > Nan Jing-based system I learned (that was inspired by Michael > Broffman's work) looks at chronic diseases as having a specific course > of multi-factorial development (including, as you mentioned, taxation, > diet, overuse of medications). I think we are in agreement here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Dave you might check out Black Cumin Oil, I have one client that swears by it. She says it helps with the muscle pain. I make a massage oil with it. Zo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 What are the ingredients in the tea? I could not tell from the website. I hope this is ok to post. I found an unexpected source of muscle pain relief. Shaklee has a new weight management system. Part of this system is an energy tea made from green, red and white teas. Within 3 days I had so much pain relief that I was practically dumbfounded. If I don't drink it daily, the pain comes back. For more information, : http://www.cinchplan.com/marshareiner and look for the Cinch Energy Tea. I recently heard that others have had the same benefit as I did. I was getting so bad that I could hardly stoop to the floor. Then I had to push myself up with my hands. Some of my friends were so surprised when I showed them what a difference it made. It's truely made a difference in the quality of my life. I hope you believe that I am not saying this just to get a sale. If you know someone already, by all means, ask them if you can sample it for a couple days. You might just be pleasantly surprised as I was!! Marsha in Ohio dartmarshar http://www.shaklee.net/marshareiner http://www.geocities.com/marshareiner/MainPage.html ________ Check Out the new free AIM® Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Marsha in Ohio wrote: <I hope this is ok to post. I found an unexpected source of muscle pain relief.> My dear, as a fellow mlmer I know you have good intentions, but let's save it for Thursdays? Thursday = Ad day Ien in the Kootenays http://freegreenliving.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 HI Avishay, I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, so I can't comment on it. The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, improved sleep and lessened anxiety. Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture without electro should be enough. on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more tierd? another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS paitients, what is your results? thanks avishay Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2007 Report Share Posted July 28, 2007 Hi Andrea, This is off the topic slightly. But what do you notice between Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue? Rozz wrote: > HI Avishay, > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, so I can't comment on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 Avishay, I'd be interested to see how electroacupuncture would be more effective than regular acupuncture and moxabustion for fibromyalgia patients, it doesn't make much sense to me. Unless these studies were just looking for short-term symptomatic relief. The goal should be a longer lasting, longer term amelioration of the condition. And the only way to do that in Chinese medicine is through accurate diagnosis and pattern differentiation. On Jul 27, 2007, at 12:28 PM, avishay_yamin wrote: > Hi evrybody > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > without electro should be enough. > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > tierd? > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > paitients, what is your results? > > thanks > avishay > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 I've treated many fibremyalgia patients. The one thing I keep in mind is that fibremyalgia is an auto immune disease. So in my treatments I try to help the patient nurture their immune system. They're usually yin deficient so I try to nourish the yin. That's easier said than done. In my past experiences, the electro-acupuncture helps alot but in some cases it makes it worse. It just depends on the patient and you don't know until you treat them how they will respond. Sometimes I use just the needle along with various needling techniques such as sha. I also incorporate massage. I've learned that deep tissue massage is not good for fibremyalgia patients. It's like pouring salt on an opened wound. All of this is just from my own personal experience. So I hope this helps. Jamie www.whartenby.com - avishay_yamin Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, July 27, 2007 2:28 PM fibromyalgia Hi evrybody my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture without electro should be enough. on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more tierd? another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS paitients, what is your results? thanks avishay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 HI Andrea i can understand why you are using the points you are using, but why do you do the treatment only for 10-15 minutes? thanks avishay Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > HI Avishay, > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, so I can't comment on it. > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI- 10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > without electro should be enough. > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > tierd? > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > paitients, what is your results? > > thanks > avishay > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 thanks Zev you gave me a point to think about.... infact my opinion is the same as yours it is just hard to make a dession when i think one thing and the reseaches says the opposite avishay Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Avishay, > I'd be interested to see how electroacupuncture would be more > effective than regular acupuncture and moxabustion for fibromyalgia > patients, it doesn't make much sense to me. Unless these studies > were just looking for short-term symptomatic relief. The goal should > be a longer lasting, longer term amelioration of the condition. And > the only way to do that in Chinese medicine is through accurate > diagnosis and pattern differentiation. > > > On Jul 27, 2007, at 12:28 PM, avishay_yamin wrote: > > > Hi evrybody > > > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > > without electro should be enough. > > > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > > tierd? > > > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > > paitients, what is your results? > > > > thanks > > avishay > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2007 Report Share Posted July 29, 2007 The one thing I keep in mind is that fibremyalgia is an auto immune disease. >>>>> Were do y get this idea? There is no evidence for autoimmunity that i have seen - Whartenby! Chinese Medicine Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:17 AM Re: fibromyalgia I've treated many fibremyalgia patients. The one thing I keep in mind is that fibremyalgia is an auto immune disease. So in my treatments I try to help the patient nurture their immune system. They're usually yin deficient so I try to nourish the yin. That's easier said than done. In my past experiences, the electro-acupuncture helps alot but in some cases it makes it worse. It just depends on the patient and you don't know until you treat them how they will respond. Sometimes I use just the needle along with various needling techniques such as sha. I also incorporate massage. I've learned that deep tissue massage is not good for fibremyalgia patients. It's like pouring salt on an opened wound. All of this is just from my own personal experience. So I hope this helps. Jamie www.whartenby.com - avishay_yamin Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, July 27, 2007 2:28 PM fibromyalgia Hi evrybody my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture without electro should be enough. on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more tierd? another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS paitients, what is your results? thanks avishay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Jamie, Initially, fibromyalgia was thought to be an autoimmune disease, but this has not proven to be true. There are no autoimmune markers with fibromyalgia as there are with rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases. This is why fibromyalgia is not diagnosable with blood tests. Whartenby! <jwhartenby wrote: I've treated many fibremyalgia patients. The one thing I keep in mind is that fibremyalgia is an auto immune disease. So in my treatments I try to help the patient nurture their immune system. They're usually yin deficient so I try to nourish the yin. That's easier said than done. In my past experiences, the electro-acupuncture helps alot but in some cases it makes it worse. It just depends on the patient and you don't know until you treat them how they will respond. Sometimes I use just the needle along with various needling techniques such as sha. I also incorporate massage. I've learned that deep tissue massage is not good for fibremyalgia patients. It's like pouring salt on an opened wound. All of this is just from my own personal experience. So I hope this helps. Jamie www.whartenby.com - avishay_yamin Chinese Traditional Medicine Friday, July 27, 2007 2:28 PM fibromyalgia Hi evrybody my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture without electro should be enough. on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more tierd? another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS paitients, what is your results? thanks avishay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Avishay, my patients become profoundly fatigued if I leave the needles in longer than 10-15 minutes. avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: HI Andrea i can understand why you are using the points you are using, but why do you do the treatment only for 10-15 minutes? thanks avishay Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky wrote: > > HI Avishay, > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, so I can't comment on it. > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI- 10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > without electro should be enough. > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > tierd? > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > paitients, what is your results? > > thanks > avishay > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 Don't Torpedo me, but from a 5E perspective I see a lot of earth in these patients. Even if I don't classify them as an Earth Constitutional type, I see dampness in the muscles, and of course I treat the dampness. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- < > HI Avishay, > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " > points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I > have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, > so I can't comment on it. > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the > ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is > going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with > other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, > and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, > improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > without electro should be enough. > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > tierd? > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > paitients, what is your results? > > thanks > avishay > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 I've discussed this previously on a couple of occasions (in this group, I think), and please don't judge this as reductionism or oversimplification, but, virtually every patient I have treated who has suffered from fibromyalgia has turned out to have food sensitivities or allergies. Using the bioset method to determine their reactive foods, and then either eliminate or desensitize, I have had tremendous success, BS " D, in eliminating the " fibromyalgia " . (However, I must add, that this is not in a vacuum, and always I take a complete history, determine a differential diagnosis and treat the patterns). If interested in reading more about this method see the page on my website: http://traditionaljewishmedicine.net/ that addressed food allergies, and feel free to contact me privately. Sincerely, Yehuda anne.crowley wrote: Don't Torpedo me, but from a 5E perspective I see a lot of earth in these patients. Even if I don't classify them as an Earth Constitutional type, I see dampness in the muscles, and of course I treat the dampness. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- < > HI Avishay, > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " > points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I > have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, > so I can't comment on it. > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the > ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is > going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with > other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, > and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, > improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > without electro should be enough. > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > tierd? > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > paitients, what is your results? > > thanks > avishay > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 i'ld say from a TCM point of view, all of the fibro patients i've seen present sp qi xu + damp. often + liv overacting on sp, and often add'tl patterns (kid yin/yang xu). k On 8/2/07, anne.crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > Don't Torpedo me, but from a 5E perspective I see a lot of earth in > these patients. Even if I don't classify them as an Earth Constitutional > type, I see dampness in the muscles, and of course I treat the dampness. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > < <%40>> > > HI Avishay, > > > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of > " favorite " > > points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I > feel I > > have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used > e-stim, > > so I can't comment on it. > > > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points > in the > > ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what > else is > > going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, > with > > other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of > retention, > > and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased > energy, > > improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin%40>> > wrote: Hi evrybody > > > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > > without electro should be enough. > > > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > > tierd? > > > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > > paitients, what is your results? > > > > thanks > > avishay > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and > adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely > > necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 ive seen fms patients who responded very well to tx that, to begin with, focused on resolving stagnation. sarah bayer from naiom taught a couple terms of case management during my education at bastyr. she also supervised a cfids clinic at harborview medical center in seattle. she said they saw a lot of triple heater pathology. that would certainly cause damp accumulation, including too much damp earth - also associated with liver overacting on spleen. the 3hs imbalance would cause stagnation. it would weaken the immune system. lynn --- Chinese Medicine wrote: > i'ld say from a TCM point of view, all of the fibro patients i've seen > present sp qi xu + damp. often + liv overacting on sp, and often add'tl > patterns (kid yin/yang xu). > > k > > > On 8/2/07, anne.crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > > > Don't Torpedo me, but from a 5E perspective I see a lot of earth in > > these patients. Even if I don't classify them as an Earth Constitutional > > type, I see dampness in the muscles, and of course I treat the dampness. > > > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > < <%40>> > > > HI Avishay, > > > > > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of > > " favorite " > > > points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I > > feel I > > > have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used > > e-stim, > > > so I can't comment on it. > > > > > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points > > in the > > > ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what > > else is > > > going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, > > with > > > other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of > > retention, > > > and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased > > energy, > > > improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > > > > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > > > > > > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin%40>> > > wrote: Hi evrybody > > > > > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > > > > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > > > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > > > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > > > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > > > without electro should be enough. > > > > > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > > > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > > > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > > > tierd? > > > > > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > > > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > > > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > > > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > > > > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > > > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > > > paitients, what is your results? > > > > > > thanks > > > avishay > > > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times > > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > To change your email delivery settings, click, > > > and > > adjust > > > accordingly. > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > > group > > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely > > > necessary. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 yehuda, that does make sense. however, having fms includes generalized hypersensitivity, and moderating that is also going to decrease food sensitivities. moderating is not to say we should eliminate it. if someone is constitutionally on the sensitive side that itself is not pathological. i dont believe we can eliminate the increased sensitivity completely without causing damage: first, i see that as trying to give a person a new constitution, and i see that as wanting a leopard to become a cat with no spots. i dont think it can be done, and i would not think it ethical. of course, someone may feel like a new person after some tx! then, if someone is on the sensitive side, they need to be able to feel that and set healthy limits with activities, foods, etc. ive seen very good success with elimination diets followed by slow reintroduction and careful food rotation. this is not to knock bioset at all. respectfully, lynn --- Chinese Medicine < wrote: > I've discussed this previously on a couple of occasions (in this group, I think), and please don't judge this as reductionism or oversimplification, but, virtually every patient I have treated who has suffered from fibromyalgia has turned out to have food sensitivities or allergies. Using the bioset method to determine their reactive foods, and then either eliminate or desensitize, I have had tremendous success, BS " D, in eliminating the " fibromyalgia " . (However, I must add, that this is not in a vacuum, and always I take a complete history, determine a differential diagnosis and treat the patterns). If interested in reading more about this method see the page on my website: http://traditionaljewishmedicine.net/ that addressed food allergies, and feel free to contact me privately. > > Sincerely, > > Yehuda > > > anne.crowley wrote: > Don't Torpedo me, but from a 5E perspective I see a lot of earth in these patients. Even if I don't classify them as an Earth Constitutional type, I see dampness in the muscles, and of course I treat the dampness. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > < > > HI Avishay, > > > > I can't answer your question about e-stim, but I do have a number of " favorite " > > points I use with fibromyalgia patients. Having fibromyalgia myself, I feel I > > have a good sense of what works and what doesn't. I just haven't used e-stim, > > so I can't comment on it. > > > > The points I use regularly are Liv-3, LI-4, ST-36, and the NADA points in the > > ear: shenmen, sympathetic, liver, lung, and kidney. Depending on what else is > > going on, I also commonly add LI-11, LI-10, PC-6, GB-41, SP-6 and KI-3, with > > other points as necessary. I keep it simple with 10-15 minutes of retention, > > and get good results such as overall reduction in pain, increased energy, > > improved sleep and lessened anxiety. > > > > Good luck with your study. I'd love to see the results. > > > > > > > > avishay_yamin <avishay_yamin wrote: Hi evrybody > > > > my question is about the use of electro acupuncture an FMS paitients. > > > > i am going to make a research about the influence of acupuncture on > > fibromyalgia patients in a hospital in israel. untill today i have > > never used electro acupuncture on FMS paitients since a big part of > > them are very tierd as well and i thought regular acupuncture > > without electro should be enough. > > > > on the few reserches that have been done untill today, the best > > results was achived by using electro acupuncture and i wanted to ask > > you if you dont think that electro can make these patients even more > > tierd? > > > > another thing i wanted to ask about electro acu. and FMS is on which > > points do you put the electro wires on? do you put it on tender > > points or do you put it on points that works in a more systemic way > > such as: LIV 3 to spread QI stagnation or SP9 to eliminate dampness > > > > another question is about FMS and Abdominal acupuncture. to those of > > you who are practecing abdominal acupuncture and have used on FMS > > paitients, what is your results? > > > > thanks > > avishay > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the fee online journal for TCM at Times > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > To change your email delivery settings, click, > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > > requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > > necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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