OT: Happy Birthday America - A Celebration of Freedom and A Salute toThose Who Made it Possible

[Guest guest]

Hey Vicki,

 

> Hi Butch

>

> I see what started out as a celebration of Fourth of July post has once

> again turned to talk of Iraq.

 

Once " again " .. well .. maybe. But its a norm on lists that one thread

leads to another .. we have nobody posting an agenda. I guess I can

interpret your lead in as meaning you disagree with me. OK. ;-)

 

> I was hoping that if I ignored the political posts they would just go away

> and when you started your mailing list I had even greater hopes:-))

 

We don't always get what we hope for .. but sometimes we do and we don't

always like it even then. But I don't mind being ignored so don't think

you owe me any apologies .. and I won't owe you any either.

 

> But I can't stand it any longer! Please understand I am not attacking you,

> I am just wanting to have my say and present another side of this from

> someone who thinks very differently.

 

You are not attacking me .. you just can't stand my messages. I really

do understand .. really I do .. I mean .. I REALLY DO UNDERSTAND!

 

I also think that you think you know me but I know that you don't. Read

that any way you want to.

 

>> America .. regardless of who likes us or not today (I believe those who

>> oppose our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan do so for reasons that are

>> not altruistic or noble .. and those reasons will not be dealt with by

>> historians in that manner) was the example and the model for emerging

>> nations and is still the example of a dream that many who still live

>> under tyrants hold onto .. with some hope.

>

> I oppose the action in Iraq and I can honestly say that it is not because of

> a hidden agenda or motive.

 

You are an individual .. the above was referring to governments. And I

stand behind my statements .. history will be the proof .. in time.

 

> I oppose it because I believe it's been based on a series of lies. When the

> first lie was firstly exposed, then admitted (about the non existent WMD) it

> fell like a house of cards. Now it's the notion of bringing democracy to

> Iraq.

 

I disagree with you .. but I suppose you are one of the Australians who

disagree with the actions of your Prime Minister .. who I have great

respect for .. but you will get a chance to vote him out in time. If I

could vote I would support him. :-)

 

> Australia has sent a very small number of troops to Iraq but for some reason

> it's seen as being a much bigger thing symbolically. For our mere support

> of this war I've never felt less proud to be an Australian in my life.

 

Good for you.

 

> According to the Washington Post, Dick Cheney still claims that Iraq and

> al-Quaeda had long established ties, and that in the early 90's Saddam

> Hussein sent a senior commander from the Iraqi intelligence service to Sudan

> to train al-Quaeda operatives in bomb making and document forgery. Senior

> intelligence officials however, claimed to have no knowledge of this.

 

That is not just according to the Washington Post .. they didn't pull it

out of their rear end nor was it fed by the Bush regime .. its a well

documented issue. The biggest problem we had in this entire fiasco was

the failure of intel .. not blaming them either as the infrastructure

had been pretty much destroyed under the Clinton administration.

 

> One of our most respected journalists, Paul McGeogh, has filed stories from

> Baghdad for well over a year now. He has met with many Iraqi people and has

> captured the mood of the place through his compelling articles. Many of

> them are not supportive of the action that's been taken there.

 

IF .. he is an objective journalist .. he is one in a million. I know

of none .. not a single one. Even if they wish to be they are hamstrung

by their directors, etc.

 

> Hugh White, the director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute wrote

> almost two years ago that he had not met a serious analyst that believed

> removing Saddam would significantly reduce the threat of terrorism to the US

> or its allies in the near future. Iraq provided an opportunity for the US

> to replace an oppressive regime with one more congenial to the US and

> western interests, which would in turn, allow the US to reduce its reliance

> on Saudi Arabia and its oil reserves.

 

Good for Hugh .. I am sure his opinion carries a lot of weight in Oz.

 

> Lecturer in International Law at Monash University in Melbourne says " It is

> not an effort by the US to monopolise Iraq revenue or oil, but to achieve

> political influence within the OPEC price-setting and to secure cheap and

> reliable oil supplies. It's a unique manoevre to shake up the OPEC

> price-setting mechanism. What really prompted the war was the fear that

> Iraq would rescuscitate its oil industry with French and Russian help, using

> euros, which would then supplant petrodollars " .

 

An opinion. I disagree.

 

> Given that the US will control Iraq's oil industry even after transition, I

> don't think it's a stretch to imagine the motives for going to war aren't

> completely " altruistic or noble " either.

 

The US will not control Iraq's oil .. so I must again disagree.

 

> And let's not forget how profitable war is. Most of the money flows through

> private firms such as Halliburton and Bechtel, but Rick Barton, a

> co-director of the Post-Conflict Reconstruction Project at the Centre for

> Strategic and International Studies in Washington says that the US would

> have been better to hand most of the reconstruction money to the hundreds of

> city councils it established across Iraq, so Iraq could tackle problems in

> its own communities.

 

You gotta be kidding! Have you EVER worked in a country like Iraq?

Corruption is not seen as evil .. its a norm. Its even that way here in

Turkey. I've worked in many Arabic countries and of all of them the

best is Jordan .. and still corruption is a way of doing business.

 

>> Anybody watching CNN lately can see the results of U.S. efforts in Iraq

>> and the efforts of those who want to stop the movement toward democracy.

>> The people are elated that Saddam has been brought into court to face

>> justice .. and for the first time in history Iraq has an opportunity to

>> become a free and democratic nation. Are all things going well there?

>> No! But it took us a long time to get it right .. and it was worth it.

>

> SOME of the people in Iraq are elated - some are not. According to an

> (unscientific) poll conducted by Radio Dijla in Baghdad, 45% of the people

> wanted him dead immediately, but 41% of them wanted him released.

 

I saw the CNN polls. They were hard to keep up with. But you missed

the part I might have caught. Keeping in mind that CNN is very Left

Wing .. they still reported something like (I am close) 40% of so want

him dead now but to die slowly .. 15% (those in his hometown) want him

released immediately and returned to the throne .. 20% or so want him to

spend the rest of his life in prison so he can think about his crimes

and 25% or so want him to be released amongst the Shia'a or Kurdish

neighborhoods of Iraq .. which would mean death of a thousand cuts.

 

>> One does not have to be a Rocket Scientist to see that there are no

>> problems today that are greater than the problems prior to our going in.

>> The Taliban are not suppressing the people of Afghanistan today and

>> the reign of terror by Saddam and his son and his generals is a thing of

>> the past. And among those who can think for themselves there is HOPE

>> today .. without HOPE man can barely survive .. not live a full life!

>

> I'm not sure that the Iraqi people feel this way. They've had schools,

> libraries and hospitals bombed. There have been massive numbers of deaths

> and casualties from " not so " smart bombs. They are living without

> electricity for up to 10 hours a day in 50+ degree heat. They feel unsafe.

 

All of the above is correct .. except the electricity point. They had

more electricity after the war than before and now the Terrorists are

doing all they can to destroy the infrastructure rebuilt. So .. we can

not expect them to be totally satisfied NOW .. nor can we turn tail and

run because the Terrorists are trying to undo what we do.

 

> Reports are that the latest opinion polls conducted there were so bad that

> the figures were suppressed. A leak to Associated Press reports that in six

> cities surveyed, confidence in the authority was only 11% down from 47% last

> November. Confidence in the US military polled at 10% and only 2% saw the

> coalition forces as liberators. More than half the people surveyed said

> they would safer if the US left.

 

There is no " authority " there now so even if your figures or those of

the AP are correct they are just history now.

 

As for the figures on who is or isn't a Liberator .. they are totally

ridiculous. And its likely they don't know the meaning of the word even

if it were asked in a manner that not intended to elicit the replies

the pollster wanted. Are you still beating your wife? Yes or No.

 

> So if those figures are true, I would call that a very big problem. To be

> successful it is also necessary to win the hearts and the minds of the Iraqi

> people.

 

I know a bit about winning hearts and minds .. its not easy to do even

in the USA if one is a policeman. But its easy to do for dictators as

they can follow it with .. Let me win your hearts and minds .. " or I

will do this and that to you. "

 

>> The expectations of the Iraqi people also must be realistic .. though I

>> understand that we are dealing with a group like most readers here can

>> just not understand .. basically they are kind of heart and narrow of

>> mind due to not having received proper education and due to having lived

>> with no hope for 35 years .. now they want it all .. now. And it is

>> those people who are not well educated that the Liberal Media will seek

>> out when they ask for opinions on how things are now. The truth is ..

>> things are going to get worse before they get better .. Americans and

>> Iraqis must understand this and be prepared to stick it out.

>

> Ok, now I see my comments above can be explained away by pointing out that

> the people surveyed haven't been educated enough to know what they think or

> feel. I think perhaps wanting it all now is a little different to comparing

> what they had before with what they have now and what they have to do

> without.

 

You used your words .. not mine. I did not write that. I was clear in

my meaning .. the pollsters are polling those they want to poll and

getting the responses based on the socio-economic levels of those being

polled.

 

>> The United States has been attacked on our own ground and the enemy is

>> planning to continue attacks against us. They attacked us 38 times

>> during the administration of Bill Clinton but nothing was done about it.

>> Those attacks (it is claimed) were seen as mad acts by mad men with no

>> central leadership. But we underestimated the enemy then and our lack

>> of response to the attacks had much to do with the attack of 9/11.

>

> Wasn't it Bill Clinton's administration that identified Osama bin Laden as

> being a threat, which the Bush administration then went on to ignore?

 

No .. it was not. You have been listening to the wrong propagandists.

But folks normally listen to those who think as they do so I guess you

might be listening to the RIGHT ones for you .. even though I see LEFT

as wrong and RIGHT as RIGHT. ;-)

 

Nobody in the Bush administration ignored Osama .. it has NEVER been

even near proven to be a true statement. Its total propaganda.

 

> There were certainly people working in the intelligence areas who pushed

> their case for this on deaf ears.

 

There were a couple .. but saying someone is a threat is not providing

enough information for one to act on it. I dealt with intel a bit in my

career and the one thing we quickly learn is that we have too much and

not enough folks or time to weed the seeds from the manure.

 

>> I don't care who the president of the United States is .. I've voted

>> Democratic and Republican many times in my life .. and will do so again

>> in the future. But I do not want to leave the future of my children and

>> grandchildren in the hands of any incompetent leader .. and I think any

>> leader who can not understand the nature of the threat is incompetent!

>

> Well if you have children and grandchildren you really need to start

> thinking about climate change which is the much bigger picture. I believe

> it is the single biggest threat we face today. Bigger than terrorism. (my

> opinion).

 

I totally disagree with you. Though your point has validity it is NOT

the single biggest threat we face today and if folks on this list want

to believe you they won't believe it for much longer. I am sure those

who survived the twin towers won't agree .. and those in harm's way

won't agree either. But then I am a practical type .. I am not a Green

Party member. And I am safer here in Turkey than I would be living in a

large city in the USA .. here I only have to be wary of about being shot

as they haven't started kidnapping Americans here .. yet.

 

> And in my opinion, any leader whose actions say the economy is more

> important than the environment, and is unwilling to implement basic

> measures to at least BEGIN to reverse climate change ... is incompetent.

 

And .. that leader is an idiot .. who would want an idiot for a leader?

That leader would be an idiot because he would be dancing to the dance

of a minority of folks .. like you .. and that is not the right of any

leader .. they must dance to the tune of the majority. Green folks

often think they have all the answers but they are a minority.

 

> You won't have to suffer the impact of these decisions, but your children

> and your grandchildren will.

>

> Vicki

 

If it must be that attention to priorities is such that they can live in

a safe world now then I accept that. They have never seen a dinosaur or

a Dodo Bird and I doubt that they really miss them. But they have seen

horror on TV when they watched the twin towers crumble. And I have seen

horror with my own eyes many times and many places .. even lately .. so

I am hard pressed to be concerned about the environment more than I am

the real immediate threat. Its all about priorities. Butch