OT: The Rise of Modern Islamism ** Was: Media Abuse

[Guest guest]

Hey Akiko,

 

> Hi Butch,

>

>>that branch was called .. Media as a Tool of Propaganda. It was

>>one of the most interesting and sought after classes in the school.

>

> I had a film theory class and it was also about how to manipulate

> audience. We also watched Nazi films in a documentary class, to

> learn how the filmmaker used the images and editing to create a

> propaganda film. Very interesting. I loved that class. Hope everyone

> can take a class like that.

 

Would be nice .. and maybe such a film should be shown in high school

civics classes .. or in some fashion.

 

>>advertisers do dictate some policy. And .. advertisers do not

>

> True. Japanese TV companies are critical of politicians but not so

> much for beurocracy.

 

Same here in Turkey .. folks fear the bureaucracy as it can touch their

daily lives but politicians are just passing through. ;-)

 

>>Clinton was lucky .. they didn't have the what for to impeach him

>>so resignation was not an option.

>

> Hmm......and the Japanese PM was very ugly guy, so I guess no one

> wanted to see him during dinner time news.

 

Mayhaps. I spent an hour or so this morning reading transcripts from

the video deposition Monica Lewinsky gave Congressional investigators.

 

Its all coming back now due to the criticism of his book. But that same

criticism will make him a fortune .. same as that against Moore's film

will do for him. Difference is, Jennifer Flowers and maybe some others

might try to sue Clinton over his inaccuracies. Point is .. I wondered

how Clinton was able to concentrate on his duties for that long period

prior to and during the investigation. He was aware that he had some

heavy hanging over his head long before it broke and he knew there was

no way this " woman scorned " was not going to break the news. Plus, too

many White House insiders (secretaries and such) had been told details.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/resources/1999/impeachment/video.transcripts/lewi\

nsky.html

 

 

 

>>>I'm not criticizing the media here, though.

>>

>>Why not? They deserve it .. they criticize every thing.

>

> Well, what I meant was, I'm not saying that Japanese media is better

> or worse. Just my observation.

 

Understand. ;-)

 

>>>Negative news get very tiresome sometimes.

>>

>>But .. it sells. Blue birds and singing children don't sell.

>

> Not so good if it makes everyone depressed.

 

Maybe in Japan .. but I think Americans love to become depressed with

bad news. ;-) The Media has many shrinks looking at their policies to

ensure they pitch what the public likes. Same for blood sports.

 

> One of the problems in Japan is, media's so negative that people

> always talking about that it's the end of Japan. But my husband saw

> no sign of reccession there. Also, once I saw a news headline

> says " young people went on rampage " or something like that. It

> turned out to be that some 20 year-olds shook cans of coca cola and

> opened it at a coming of age party, so it ruined other girls' nice

> kimonos. Well, rampage here means...... So, I think it's actually

> not so good that media goes too negative, and makes people forget

> about how fortunate they are. It's sad to see that people there are

> not so happy.

 

Same in America and moreso in Turkey .. its called Yellow Journalism.

 

I watched the daily polls run by one organization here on the attitudes

of Turks toward assistance to America prior to our movement into Iraq.

It was coming up every hour or so .. " Now 75% are against " .. toward

evening its " Now 80% are against, " and so on. It continued to like 97%

or so. There is no way in plupurple Hell we can get 97% of the folks in

any nation to agree on such issues. And the folks I knew were saying

they had not been polled and most of them (educated folks) were NOT a

part of that so-called 97%.

 

Old Mustafa or Ali, who didn't care about politics nor understand it as

they were more concerned with feeding their families, would be asked by

some pollster or neighbor how they felt .. and not knowing what it was

all about in the second place they said they didn't know. But when they

were told that this and that percentage was " against " they felt a need

to jump on the bandwagon or be treated like idiots.

 

>>But if you folks want to take the time to look at Hitchens

>

> I read it. Interesting. I actually haven't seen the movie, yet. I've

> heard that there are inaccuracy in the film.

 

That's putting it mildly. ;-)

 

> I'll keep in mind on these points he makes in the article. Thanks for

> posting it.

 

Welcome fer'shur. This morning I also read an article on how parents

should explain the war and beheadings and such to young folks .. and a

major point of this article was the need to discuss the issues and not

avoid them .. which is why I guess I post on them here. I know many

folks are bored by such things .. thus, the OT .. they can zap it.

 

> Like I said before, I don't specially like him or dislike him. I

> just don't know much about him. But I feel like I've heard more of

> ultra right than left, so I'm glad that there are some counterpart

> for the extreme right. Feels like there is more balance now, and I

> can safely sit in middle.

 

PLEASE tell me where the Right broadcasts are coming from .. I don't

care about the Ultra anything but I would like to tune into some Right

wing logic on these issues .. can't find any where I am. :-P

 

>>It started around 680 AD .. and picked up steam following WWI with

>>the death of the Ottoman Empire and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's modern

>>Turkey.

>

> What were their targets back then, in 7th century?

 

Pretty much what they are now .. Christians and Jews.

 

Muhammad (Mohammad) was born in 570 AD .. around 610 he claimed to have

been contacted by Gabriel with a message stating God wanted him to

spread his true religion .. and publish it. He started spreading it

then and there but it wasn't published until after he died in 632. And

as is the case with most published works then and now .. odds are great

that a bit of misinterpretation was included .. and words such as I have

written here are enough to get me decapitated in many places. ;-)

 

Point is .. during his lifetime he executed what is now known as Holy

War. The title to Islam was held by three different Caliphate dynasties

who all continued this Jihad .. and each of them lasted a bit longer

than the previous. It fell into the hands of the Ottomans (now the

Republic of Turkey) in 1350 .. and they lasted the longest of all the

others combined. The major difference was that after a while Ottoman

Sultans became " benevolent " conquerors and allowed the conquered to keep

their own religions .. a smart move it was as it allowed them to spread

their influence without having to constantly defend areas they conquered

against those they had conquered. Here's a short history of early Islam

http://eawc.evansville.edu/chronology/ispage.htm

 

And for reasons that were wise (methinks) none of the many Crusades were

undertaken during the reign of the Ottoman Empire ..

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html

 

I mentioned that the rise of Islamic movements really began after the

end of WWI and the end of the Ottoman Empire .. a reference states:

 

> World War I was the beginning of a new era in the history of Islam.

> The last of the older Muslim political systems came to an end in the

> aftermath of the war. The Ottoman Empire, which had been allied with

> Germany, was defeated and occupied, and the sultanate was formally

> abolished as a part of the reforms of the new Turkish nationalism led

> by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

 

Some info for those who are interested enough to read more on it ..

http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_islam.html

 

So .. that is when the organized movements began. Then there was a

mighty resurgence of the movement in the late 1960s and so on. Even

then scholars were saying that the new Islamists were going to be

problematic .. at best. All of this occurred during the life time of

most of the readers on this list .. and it was in the minds of folks

like me .. military and political folks .. all through the 70s and 80s.

 

I mentioned yesterday that 38 major attacks against Americans and/or

American interests went down during the 8 years of Clinton's presidency

and though most Americans paid little attention to those attacks there

was no doubt in the minds of some of us that they were but the soup

before the main course. It took 9/11 to wake the Americans up and now I

am afraid that a lot of them are going to sleep again.

 

There is NO WAY America can be secured by an Pacifist attitudes. The

meek might inherit the Earth but they're gonna get their butts kicked a

lot afore they collect their inheritance. We hear folks peeing and

moaning about the Homeland Security policies .. but few have even the

slightest idea of what these new branch of government is doing to

protect us. As one who spent a fair portion of life devoted to rooting

out the bad guys and protecting those who often didn't appreciate my

efforts I know that a city deserves only that amount of protection they

are willing to pay for .. and to the degree they are willing to accept

inconvenience. But federal governments sometimes have to look beyond

the whimsical and fickle desires of a less than informed public .. and

that is what is going down now. I am happy that Homeland Security is on

the job and no way do I expect them to do everything right or please

everyone they come into contact with. I have had personal experiences

with some less than astute airport employees in Atlanta .. better it is

maybe to say they were friggin idiots .. but that is changing and it is

gonna take time to get the machine humming like a Swiss watch. In the

meantime .. here are some examples of what they are doing for us now ..

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1152 & idq=/ff/story/0001%2\

F20040629%2F2034518435.htm & sc=1152 & floc=NW_1-T

 

If we could have had such an organization prior to 9/11 odds are great

that it would not have gone down .. but hindsight is the best sight and

after 9/11 the immediate threat was reevaluated. Bush will get credit

for all the wrong things of this new organization .. but no government

organization can get everything wrong every time and its the big picture

that is more important to me than are the minor day-to-day annoyances.

 

>>What scares me is that Americans in the middle can be influenced

>

> The same can be said to Ultra right talk radio hosts.

 

Hard core Democrats will vote Democrat .. hard core Republicans will

vote Republican .. but in almost all elections its the swing voters that

make the final decision. This film is far more effective as a tool of

propaganda than is the Right Wing, carnival atmosphere created by Right

Wing talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh and evangelistic sermons from

Pat Roberson and Jerry Falwell .. or Left Wing paradoxical ravings of

idiots like Jesse Jackson, Dave Ross or the new failure .. Air America.

 

This film is establishing a very BAD precedent for the future of free

elections in the United States. If we can brainwash (or overwhelm) the

minds of those who are on the fence just prior to an election we are in

some way determining who will be the next president. And laying the

groundwork for a system that might pitch to the critics and the idiots

in hopes of winning awards for the propaganda film that was most likely

to have influenced the vote. :-(

 

>>But .. it was a second Pearl Harbor. The first thought that came

>

> That's fine. But I just felt unsafe after that.

 

Understand. I don't feel as welcome in all corners of Turkey as I used

to either .. but life is not always fair methinks. ;-)

 

>>Those folks are idiots .. nobody in their right mind can make such

>>comments and there is certainly no need to discuss it on this list

>>because there is no racism observable here.

>

> That's why I feel safe to post it here.

 

Good show .. I have NEVER EVER seen any discrimination (regardless of

how well someone might have THOUGHT they were hiding it) on this list or

on the other lists I am a member of .. save one time .. and that was

from an idiotic criminal who had ripped off more people than YL but who

had 1% of the brains Gary Young has .. that was from the infamous Nicole

who is remembered by many who have been around a while. She was (is) an

Islamic covert who saw everyone else as being an infidel! After being

barred from list after list .. and coming back with phony IDs but having

the same writing style which was easily identified .. she went away.

 

>>Prior to her I was engaged to a Vietnamese Buddhist but she was

>>killed before we were married.

>

> I'm sorry to hear that......

 

Thanks .. was 40 years ago .. a part of my history now. :-)

 

>> Race means exactly nothing .. long as they can cook good. ;-)

>

> Hmmm......can I tell you that my husband cooks mostly?

 

You just did. ;-)

 

>>I think its bull shit .. and he has made it clear that his

>>religious beliefs are very personal.

>

> Well, there's some videos that worries me a bit.

>

> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/view/

 

Then it worked .. the propaganda did what it was supposed to do .. it

worried you. ;-) Frontline is not what I would call a objective source

of information .. and PBS is still trying to shake the old nickname they

had .. " Moscow on the Hudson. " ;-)

 

>>National elections. Bush or Kerry should win based on far more

>>than some fat, sloppy idiot's propaganda .. they should discuss

>>issues and debate issues .. face to face or on their own time.

>

> I don't think Moore's film actually affect the election, though.

 

I hope you are right .. and I believe you are wrong.

 

>>Loss of a relationship with that relative is to the benefit of

>>both of you. I went through that with the Turkish man who married

>>my wife's sister .. he refused to invite me to the wedding so my

>>wife refused to go herself .. to her own sister's wedding.

>

> Yeah, I told my husband I won't see this relative again. I was too

> naive before, coming from a country where everyone looks the same.

> So was very shocking to me.

 

You done gud! Looks mean little in Turkey .. Turks are a Nation .. not

a race .. but attitudes of some folks are hard to change. This dude

came from a Black Sea village family that had grown wealthy over a

couple of generations growing hazelnuts .. and he is still an idiot.

 

>>of the new Iraqi leadership is (for the moment) very encouraging.

>

> Yes, it was very good news. I was relieved a little bit. Hope it

> holds well.

 

It must hold .. if not, then the entire world is to blame.

 

>>>Well, if I will have a son and he wants to go, I will have to

>>>let him go.

>

>>That is a BIG Roger! ;-)

>

> Well, I'm not going to make it easy for him. If he'll have the guts

> to take the risks, he should be able to take the risk to go against

> me.

 

Wait and see .. might surprise you. ;-) My mother refused to sign for

me when I graduated high school .. I was not yet 18 so needed her OK on

my enlistment papers. I made her some offers she couldn't refuse. ;-)

 

> Interesting discussion. Thanks, Butch. I think extremists' voice is

> lot louder than the most people in the middle, so I didn't have

> enough explanation on this issue. I feel more educated now.

 

Good it is and welcome you are. The fact is .. I find international

politics to be of far more interest to me than I do Aromatherapy. :-P

 

> Akiko

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch