OT: Global Terrorism ** Was: Conflict - There is Another Side to This

[Guest guest]

Butch,

I know we both study history.

To me the crusades in ancient times where as much a terrorist act as we

see the fanatic Muslim's practizing it now, in many ways still their

answer to it..

Our wise writers of the constitution did the right thing by separating

Church and State. Bush's open stand for his religion is admirable but

just feeds the fires of fanatic muslims to shout ' it's another crusade'..

Whenever there is a David and Goliath situation the masses will root

for the underdog.

Bottomline the Bully looks like he has power, but it's short lived and

no real resolution comes forward.

The Greek, Roman Empire, Ottoman, British Empire got nowhere at the end.

Ideology set aside, this whole mess is a powergrab for oil, no matter in

what religious disguise it comes.

Osama wants it, to control the world, we want it to keep our oil hungry

way of life going.

Antidote is to become self reliant on energy.

I am convinced this country can do it, we just have to shift our

policies that support this hunger for oil based energies 100%.

Years ago, I fought our small neighborhood nuke in court in Washington,

when they wanted to extend their fuel storage.

This plant ( now shut down), only contributed 2.5 % to the companies

power grid. We figured that if 333.333.00 people in Michigan would just

shut down one light bulb, we would not have needed that plant at all.

The waste in this country in regard to energy is pitiful and all efforts

that got started under Carter, got squelched under Reagan and Bush sen.

who supported Hussein full blast,, giving him the weapons of WMD and

going to bed with the Saudis to keep our oil supply going, coddling us

into a belief that all is wonderful and easy going.

If we would have gone all stop out 20 years ago in developing

independent renewable energy sources, we would not be in the fiasco

that is now pretty much our doing.

My heart goes out to those brave soldiers that have to fight this war,

they are canon fodder for an administration that went amok.

I am afraid that this war will escalate into situations we have never

dreamed of, never mind are totally unprepared for.

Just as we where unprepared to 'run' Iraq, after the invasion.

The ball is rolling and we can't stop it anymore.

It isn't going to matter much who is going to be President, but I know I

rather have one that is respected in the whole world instead of having

isolated us.

All the goodwill we had after 9/11 has gone down the drain and that I

find sad.

Stay safe,

C-M

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki,

 

Lemme start by thanking Chris for allowing this discussion to happen.

 

I hope its not going to go much further because it will bore people and

its not the intent of this list. Still, there is a need for attention

because we are all potential victims .. and this is not Crying Wolf.

 

I'll also say that I refuse to justify Terrorism by politicizing it ..

this is not a criticism .. just a statement of fact.

 

Finally, I believe that calling Terrorism " conflict " is down playing it

big time .. it is CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY .. as is rape and child abuse

and we should not label them as conflicts either!

 

Terrorism is not new .. Postmodern Terrorism is new .. it involves the

export of Terrorism .. something I personally observed over many years

as a military man .. both in peace-time law enforcement and real world

anti terrorism security operations.

 

> Hi Everyone

>

> I've deliberated for most of the day whether I would send a post along these

> lines, but after much thought and reading many posts over the past few days

> presenting only one side to the current conflict, I think it needs to be

> said that there are other viewpoints.

 

Of course there will be many other viewpoints .. same for abortion and

capital punishment and this and that .. and almost without exception

they are politically driven .. that has always been the case. But views

on crimes against humanity should be realistic instead of idealistic.

 

If we research events prior to the Spanish-American War and W.W. I we

will find many statements opposing US involvement in those wars.

 

We can easily find any number of opposing or supporting positions if we

seek them .. that's what " spin " is about. But we should not deny the

historical dates and events just to politicize our research.

 

Its useless to try to politicize Global Terrorism because it's been

active during administrations of Republican and Democratic presidents.

Politicizing Terrorism in some respects justifies Terrorist actions as

being normal responses to treatment by this or that administration.

 

Islamic Terrorism was hot and heavy during my Grandpa's time .. in the

Philippines. Terrorism itself has been around a few thousand years ..

and it was the single event that kicked off W.W. I.

 

Following is a list of currently active International Terrorist Groups.

 

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2003/12389.htm

 

More than half of them are Islamic Fundamentalist Groups .. many of them

have been around since I joined the Army .. maybe before you were born. ;-)

 

Below are some of the older organizations .. and who was in the Chair in

the White House when they began operations.

 

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm

 

MEK/MKO/PMOI/NCR .............. in the 1960s ............ Kennedy

PFLP .......................... in 1967 ................. Johnson

DLFP .......................... in 1969 ................. Johnson

Palestine Islamic Jihad ....... in the 1970s ............ Nixon

PLO/PLF ....................... in mid 1970s ............ Nixon

Islamic Jihad ................. in late 1970s ........... Nixon

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya ........ in late 1970s ........... Nixon

Abu Nidal ..................... in 1974 ................. Ford

Jamaat ul-Fuqra ............... in early 1980s .......... Carter

al--Qaeda began in ............ in late 1980s ........... Carter

Hamas ......................... in 1987 ................. Reagan

Lashkar-e-Tayyiba ............. in 1989 ................. Poppa Bush

Abu Sayyaf Group .............. in 1991 ................. Poppa Bush

Harakat ul-Ansar .............. in 1993 ................. Clinton

Jaish-e-Mohammed .............. in February 2000 ........ Clinton

 

We can't blame Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan,

Bush Sr., or Clinton for the birth of the above Islamic Terrorist

organizations. And we can't blame the current President either because

he didn't take office until 2001.

 

And there have been no NEW Islamic Terrorist organizations created since

the current President took office .. though some groups splintered and

took on new names. But .. as the man in the Chair he must take credit

for the good and the bad that happens on a day to day basis .. even

though presidents are responsible for little of the good or the bad.

 

Those who lean left and try to politicize Terrorist actions against the

USA turn their heads from the facts .. there were more acts committed by

Islamic Terrorists against the USA during the period of 1993 thru 2001

(Bill Clinton's time) than in other periods of recent history .. and as

much as I dislike Clinton it would be foolish to blame him for this.

 

This URL mentions Terrorism in 431 BC .. it didn't stop when Jesus and

Mohammed showed up on the scene. And it mentions acts of Terrorism

during the period 1865 - 1905.

 

http://www.terrorismfiles.org/encyclopaedia/history_of_terrorism.html

 

A partial list of recent Terrorist attacks against the United States.

 

http://americanhistory.about.com/library/fastfacts/blffterrorism.htm

 

A non politicized look at Global Terrorism .. there are many ..

 

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/background/terrorism

 

This one (politicized by Israel) still shows a good history of Terrorism

in the Middle East ..

 

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/terrorism.html

 

> To add a little more balance there are some excellent articles which are

> well worth a read.

 

There can be no balance to criminal acts .. that is what Terrorism is.

To say there is another side is justifying Terrorism .. like saying rape

and child molestation and kidnapping and such have another side and we

need to view it with a bit of balance.

 

> Richard Neville article " Beyond Good and Evil " at

> <http://www.richardneville.com/Articles/Article6.html>

>

> Or read Nicholas Lemann's article " The Next World Order " at

> <http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020401fa_FACT1>

> where he outlines plans for a regime change in Iraq as far back

> as 1993 when Bush snr was in power.

 

But .. Terrorism is not even about Iraq. Islamic Terrorist acts against

Americans and innocent people from other countries began a generation

prior to this time ..

 

> You can find plenty of other thought provoking articles at the New Yorker

> archives written by some very well respected journalists at

> <http://www.newyorker.com/archive/>

 

I cannot imagine how an article that explains or justifies Terrorism can

be described as thought provoking .. and well respected is a relative

term .. depends on which side of the political spectrum one is on.

 

> And plenty more information at

> <http://www.tompaine.com/>

 

I had two acquaintances murdered by Terrorists here in Turkey .. one,

Bobby Mozelle, was a co-worker .. but (MSG, USA, Ret.) John Gandy was a

close friend .. spent the weekend as my house guest in Ankara before he

returned to Istanbul and was murdered that Monday. Neither Bobby nor

John nor the President of the USA can be held responsible for the hatred

and inhumane acts of the criminals that took their lives.

 

Prior to coming to Turkey in 1988, I attended a very special course at

Fort Bragg, NC, called the Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape Course.

With me was a friend who had created the course, and who had spent time

as a captive of the Viet Cong early in the Vietnam War, and who was the

author of the book, " Five Years to Freedom. " That was Colonel James N.

(Nick) Rowe. In 1988, I finished the course and came to Turkey to serve

with the U.S. Military Mission .. Nick went on to the Philippines to

serve in a similar position with the the US Military Mission there.

Nick was murdered by Terrorists in Manila on 21 April 1989.

http://www.psywarrior.com/rowe.html

 

> Happy reading

> Vicki

 

For me, there will be no happy reading on Terrorism unless I can live

long enough to read it as a part of history .. which will never happen.

 

I pray that you and none of the people reading this post now .. or their

friends or loved ones .. will ever become victims of the crime against

humanity known as Terrorism.

 

Y'all keep smiling. Butch