RE: OT and maybe offensive to some ----American Rights - long

[Guest guest]

Hi Deonia

 

I've been considering since early this morning whether I would reply to

this. I know you marked the post OT and " maybe offensive " , but the fact is

that it appears on a list for all members to read regardless of the

disclaimer in the subject line. And when I read " maybe offensive to some "

I'm often expecting a humorous post, just as I expect Julie may have done.

 

One of the great things about internet access and worldwide mailing lists is

the diversity of members from all races, backgrounds, knowledge bases and

beliefs. And I feel that a post of this divisive nature seeks to actively

discourage harmony, one of the very things I believe this list is trying to

achieve.

 

If you substituted Tampa Bay for a place name in Australia, and America for

Australia, this article could well have been written in one of our

newspapers. So I'll address this is if it was written here since I believe

it applies just about equally.

 

The sentiments expressed here are often also expressed in Australia through

talkback radio " shock jocks " , right wing columnists and politicians who

attempt to score cheap political points by capitalising on fear.

 

> > Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if

> we continue

> > to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries

> > that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

> > Think about it . .

 

Or did they come there to live because the demand by western countries of

their resources has made life in their own lands untenable?

 

In the main, people do not abandon their homes, their countries and their

extended families simply because they see western countries as a shining

light. It takes a very brave and determined person to leave all that behind

and forge a new life. Most wouldn't be prepared to do it if there was a

glimmer of hope that they could achieve this in their own nation with

familiar surroundings.

 

> > All I have to say is, when will they do something about

> > MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't

> > celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry

> > Christmas.

 

In our house we no longer celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense

because it has come to represent consumerism and excess, and is a long way

from what I believe Christmas originally represented. And also because we

don't formalise our religious beliefs - but that's surely a matter of

choice.

 

> > We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,

> Russian, or any other language.

> > Therefore, if you wish to become part

> > of our society, learn the language!

 

Australia is also a very rich and diverse society precisely because of the

culture that non English speakers have introduced here. Without that

culture we would be a very bland society, eating bland food. We have many

fine cultural festivals here that have been introduced by other races and

societies, just as I expect you have in the US. And I can guarantee that

the many thriving restaurants here are not successful because they serve

food perfected by the English settlers!

 

Many of those people who introduced us to those cultures (and continue to do

so) weren't capable of speaking perfect English when they arrived. But

they've contributed in so many other ways. As part of the bigger picture,

language is a minor consideration for the short term.

 

> > " In God We Trust " is our national motto. This is not some

> Christian, right

> wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian

> men and women,

> > on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly

> documented.

 

And I would argue that those Christian principles include tolerance,

compassion, fairness, empathy and forgiveness, which very much seem to be

lacking in the tone of this article.

 

It is certainly appropriate to display it

> > on the walls of our schools. If God

> > offends you, then I suggest you

> > consider another part of the world as

> > your new home, because God is part

> > of our culture.

 

There's also been a move to remove religious references from our schools in

Australia and I see this as a more pragmatic approach. Not just because we

are a multicultural society comprising many different religions, but also

because many people here reject the notion of there being " one god " who all

believe in. Religion and spirituality takes many different forms, and if

someone suggested to me I should move to another country because I reject

formalised religion and prefer not to see it in public places, I'd be highly

offended.

 

Lastly, I no longer celebrate Australia Day, which is after all, the

celebration of white people invading our indigenous people. I have to say

I'm ashamed of the way we're perceived as a nation for our record on human

rights. Our politicians make a big song and dance about how great it is to

live in a democracy. But I don't see anything terribly democratic about the

way we're behaving as a nation right now.

 

> > I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends

> > (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later

> > get back to the complainers, lets all try,

> > please

 

This is the same sentiment that our politicians use when trying to swing

public opinion against the ever increasing numbers of refugees and turn

boats around " so they will get the message " . I sometimes wonder if they

think refugees are sitting there watching television in their homes and then

change their minds about trying to leave to come to Australia once they get

this clear message from our politicians?

 

Vicki

[Guest guest]

Thank you Vicki - you've said just what I felt - and a deal more eloquently!

Ann - Scotland

 

I've been considering since early this morning whether I would reply to

this. I know you marked the post OT and " maybe offensive " , but the fact is

that it appears on a list for all members to read regardless of the

disclaimer in the subject line.

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 11:31 AM 5/17/2004 +0100, you wrote:

>Thank you Vicki - you've said just what I felt - and a deal more eloquently!

>Ann - Scotland

>

>I've been considering since early this morning whether I would reply to

>this. I know you marked the post OT and " maybe offensive " , but the fact is

>that it appears on a list for all members to read regardless of the

>disclaimer in the subject line.

 

Ann, I was just about to post an identical message to yours! Thank you

vicki, from someone living in Miami, where it is hard to get by if you

don't speak Spanish (and I don't.) After 11 years living here, the only

frustration I've ever had in communicating was yesterday, when I had to

take a rescue kitty to the emergency vet and the tech there didn't

understand some of my English phrases. Other than that, under less

stressful situations, all the cultural diversity and tolerance you see here

truly emphasises that this is what American is all about!

 

We're a refuge and a melting pot, and evolving.

 

PS Jasmine, the kitten, is OK -- she had to have her spay stitches

re-done, and she and her brother Sunny went off to their new home last

night (sniff.) More later, including pics.

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

[Guest guest]

Thanks Vicki,

 

You put it very well.

 

Mary

Well, Naturally

 

 

 

At 07:20 PM 5/17/2004 +1000, you wrote:

 

>Hi Deonia

>

>I've been considering since early this morning whether I would reply to

>this. I know you marked the post OT and " maybe offensive " , but the fact is

>that it appears on a list for all members to read regardless of the

>disclaimer in the subject line. And when I read " maybe offensive to some "

>I'm often expecting a humorous post, just as I expect Julie may have done.

>

>One of the great things about internet access and worldwide mailing lists is

>the diversity of members from all races, backgrounds, knowledge bases and

>beliefs. And I feel that a post of this divisive nature seeks to actively

>discourage harmony, one of the very things I believe this list is trying to

>achieve.

>

>If you substituted Tampa Bay for a place name in Australia, and America for

>Australia, this article could well have been written in one of our

>newspapers. So I'll address this is if it was written here since I believe

>it applies just about equally.

>

>The sentiments expressed here are often also expressed in Australia through

>talkback radio " shock jocks " , right wing columnists and politicians who

>attempt to score cheap political points by capitalising on fear.

>

> > > Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if

> > we continue

> > > to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries

> > > that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

> > > Think about it . .

>

>Or did they come there to live because the demand by western countries of

>their resources has made life in their own lands untenable?

>

>In the main, people do not abandon their homes, their countries and their

>extended families simply because they see western countries as a shining

>light. It takes a very brave and determined person to leave all that behind

>and forge a new life. Most wouldn't be prepared to do it if there was a

>glimmer of hope that they could achieve this in their own nation with

>familiar surroundings.

>

> > > All I have to say is, when will they do something about

> > > MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't

> > > celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry

> > > Christmas.

>

>In our house we no longer celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense

>because it has come to represent consumerism and excess, and is a long way

>from what I believe Christmas originally represented. And also because we

>don't formalise our religious beliefs - but that's surely a matter of

>choice.

>

> > > We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,

> > Russian, or any other language.

> > > Therefore, if you wish to become part

> > > of our society, learn the language!

>

>Australia is also a very rich and diverse society precisely because of the

>culture that non English speakers have introduced here. Without that

>culture we would be a very bland society, eating bland food. We have many

>fine cultural festivals here that have been introduced by other races and

>societies, just as I expect you have in the US. And I can guarantee that

>the many thriving restaurants here are not successful because they serve

>food perfected by the English settlers!

>

>Many of those people who introduced us to those cultures (and continue to do

>so) weren't capable of speaking perfect English when they arrived. But

>they've contributed in so many other ways. As part of the bigger picture,

>language is a minor consideration for the short term.

>

> > > " In God We Trust " is our national motto. This is not some

> > Christian, right

> > wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian

> > men and women,

> > > on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly

> > documented.

>

>And I would argue that those Christian principles include tolerance,

>compassion, fairness, empathy and forgiveness, which very much seem to be

>lacking in the tone of this article.

>

>It is certainly appropriate to display it

> > > on the walls of our schools. If God

> > > offends you, then I suggest you

> > > consider another part of the world as

> > > your new home, because God is part

> > > of our culture.

>

>There's also been a move to remove religious references from our schools in

>Australia and I see this as a more pragmatic approach. Not just because we

>are a multicultural society comprising many different religions, but also

>because many people here reject the notion of there being " one god " who all

>believe in. Religion and spirituality takes many different forms, and if

>someone suggested to me I should move to another country because I reject

>formalised religion and prefer not to see it in public places, I'd be highly

>offended.

>

>Lastly, I no longer celebrate Australia Day, which is after all, the

>celebration of white people invading our indigenous people. I have to say

>I'm ashamed of the way we're perceived as a nation for our record on human

>rights. Our politicians make a big song and dance about how great it is to

>live in a democracy. But I don't see anything terribly democratic about the

>way we're behaving as a nation right now.

>

> > > I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends

> > > (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later

> > > get back to the complainers, lets all try,

> > > please

>

>This is the same sentiment that our politicians use when trying to swing

>public opinion against the ever increasing numbers of refugees and turn

>boats around " so they will get the message " . I sometimes wonder if they

>think refugees are sitting there watching television in their homes and then

>change their minds about trying to leave to come to Australia once they get

>this clear message from our politicians?

>

>Vicki

[Guest guest]

On May 17, 2004, at 2:20 AM, Vicki Younger wrote:

 

> Hi Deonia

>

> I've been considering since early this morning whether I would reply to

> this.  I know you marked the post OT and " maybe offensive " , but the

> fact is

> that it appears on a list for all members to read regardless of the

> disclaimer in the subject line.  And when I read " maybe offensive to

> some "

> I'm often expecting a humorous post, just as I expect Julie may have

> done.

>

 

Vicki, that's exactly what happened to me. I though, oh great, more

humor. I couldn't have been more wrong.

 

Sandi Thompson, R.A. Certified Integrative Aromatherapist

Force of Nature Aromatherapy

Custom Blends for Your Well Being

www.forceofnaturearomatherapy.com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Got to admit...that letter 'gnawed' on me.

When I hear that : " Go back to where you are from , if you don't like

it here. "

I always think they mean me...

I am a first generation US citizen and have learned in this land of '

Freedom, the bill of rights, right to religion " to just shut my mouth..

Well, most of the time..

I fell in love with an American, if he would have been from Timbaktu, I

would have followed him there, instead it was Kokomo, Indiana.

I did not like to give up my citizenship, but did so, in the interest

of a united family and I wanted the right to vote, since I lived here.

I neither had to leave my country because of famine, political

persecution, religious freedom or financial necessity, or because I

had not the freedom to speak out..

I had all that.

How would you feel if native Americans, who REALLY where there before

Europeans intruded with their religion and ideas, told you to leave,

if you did not like how they practiced their way of life..? Their

language did not even include the word 'sin'...

To be honest, I only have stayed in this country, that has no

comprehensive health insurance, social systems that border on poverty, a

different church at every corner that screams : " Me, me,me ..it's the

only way to truly go to heaven " ., because of my husband and children..

Materialism rules ! Keep the economy going...

Talk about culture shocks.

Picture windows that would face a busy street with a TV in front of them.

Plastic flowers and nylon net, with sparkles, is mother nature not good

enough anymore?

No book shelves, do people REALLY read here on their own? ( I know they

do..., but they are the exception, not the norm), but when I first

came to this country, I wondered where the bookshelves where. Only saw

pretty books on a coffee table and those where people with College degrees..

But than, I 've never cared about house beautiful, but my first look

goes for the bookshelves and to what people are reading...

Than comes the waste...

Oh, my gosh, the waste Americans produce, not thinking, not caring...

I had to promise a few things when I became a citizen.

One was to forgo all other potentates and rulers..

To defend this country if attacked. ( I would, even as a Quaker, my

chosen religion)

They did not asked me to defend THE religion of the United States.

To prove , that I could understand English, I was asked if I understood

the sentence: " All men are created equal "

I remember wondering...how about the women?

How about people of different color? There still where signs in Indiana

that said " White's only " in '64..

America IS a great country, but if you think it's the only one, where

one can be happy..maybe you need to do some world traveling and see that

other people also are very happy where they are. Often it's the

arrogance of Americans, that feel they have the only country to be

happy in that makes American's so unpopular in the rest of the world.

I spoke and read English before I came to this country, my German

education had me learn 3 languages, I had no choice there.. if I

wanted to have a higher education. I would never expect people in this

country to conform to my native language.. Although, if it would not

have been for one vote, the official language might be German and not

English.. and I am learning Anishnahbegomohwin by choice, for that's

what was spoken in Michigan , before Europeans came.

Some one asked me recently if I would go back to Germany to live, if I

had the opportunity and if I would have been better off there.

It's really a mute question. My children and grandchildren live here and

I am all the family they have, how could I leave them.

Would I have been better off? Maybe...most likely, I had a very good

German education and come from a well known family, would not have to

worry about getting a Soc.Sec. check for $ 1.000.- , when the

medication they want me to take, costs over $ 1.200.- a month...

But than I also burned bridges.

My father disowned me on my wedding day, he had been a POW by Americans ...

My uncle was killed by Americans, the British bombed all of our business

to dust...the East Germans got several of our branch businesses.

My grandparents got bombed out twice by Americans..

I've seen the horrors of war, the refugees, the hungry, the

occupation.... and sometimes can't believe how unrealistic people are

here about war.

To sum it up:

I made the decision to come over here, made my 'bed' and now sleep in it...

Sorry, but I never bought into the ' flagwaving, apple pie, Chevrolet'

thing, especially when the Chevy is outsourced to all over the world in

it's parts..buy a Toyota, it' s made in the US... some pastries are

better than apple pie and I know what all the flagwaving brought Germany...

My happiness is not with the American 'motto' of keeping up with the

Joneses, but with the native Americans that still have the values of

respect for the Creation of All by the Creator., they took me fully in

, gave me their citizenship as a sovereign Nation. Now that made me

truly feel like I belonged here, on this continent, not my US passport.

I know someone will speak up and say: " But if it would not have been

for us, Germany would still be under Hitler and you might have been

gassed for your outspokenness... "

Ok...would you have had liberation from the British, if it would not

have been the German Hessians and French that fought on the side of the

Revolution?

 

I pray for Peace on Earth and think America has a lot of damage to

undo, to regain all the goodwill it had after 9/11.

C-M

[Guest guest]

Hello Vicki,

I know I'm not Deonia, but I did want to reply. Knowing the mood of a

person when you read something can be important so as not to get upset

by something. I am in a thoughtful frame of mind. I am not upset, just

thoughtful.

 

 

Vicki Younger wrote:

 

> If you substituted Tampa Bay for a place name in Australia, and

> America for

> Australia, this article could well have been written in one of our

> newspapers. So I'll address this is if it was written here since I

> believe

> it applies just about equally.

 

I agree with you on this, it could be written for any country.

 

> > > Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if

> > > we continue to make the changes forced on us by the people from

> other countries

> > > that came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????

>

> In the main, people do not abandon their homes, their countries and their

> extended families simply because they see western countries as a shining

> light.

 

I disagree with you on this one. I have talked with several immigrants

in the U.S. Their reason for coming into this country was because they

hoped to make a better life for their families. On the other hand,

another immigrant told me he came to the U.S. because his parents didn't

want him in the military (his country has a mandatory military service

after high school). He was here on a student visa for several years and

decided to stay. He is now a U.S. citizen. His youngest brother is

also now in the U.S. on a student visa... again because his parents

don't want the boy in the military. I don't know if the boy will stay

in the U.S. or not. I do know his mama was talking to me about setting

up a marriage between my oldest daughter (who was 16 at the time) and

her youngest son (who was 19). She would take my daughter back to her

country and teach her their ways. I didn't agree with this, so, no

wedding. In this case, the parents were/are using our country as an

escape for their sons....to keep them out of the military (I don't agree

with this, every country has the right to defend itself and having a

mandatory 2 year military service after high school isn't wrong). The

oldest son learned our culture and language...he kept some of his

culture and still speaks his language and teaches his language to those

who want to learn. I don't have a problem with this. These immigrants

aren't trying to change our " culture " but to adapt to it.

 

> It takes a very brave and determined person to leave all that behind

> and forge a new life. Most wouldn't be prepared to do it if there was a

> glimmer of hope that they could achieve this in their own nation with

> familiar surroundings.

 

I agree with you on this one.... IF their country would allow them to

live their own life without forcing them to make certain choices. BUT,

their country doesn't allow it and so they come to another country where

they see they have the freedom of choice. Believe it or not... there

is intense political/religious persecution still going on in many

countries.

 

> > > All I have to say is, when will they do something about

> > > MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't

> > > celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry Christmas.

>

> In our house we no longer celebrate Christmas in the traditional sense

> because it has come to represent consumerism and excess, and is a long way

> from what I believe Christmas originally represented. And also because we

> don't formalise our religious beliefs - but that's surely a matter of

> choice.

 

How a person celebrates or doesn't celebrate Christmas is a matter of

choice. I also believe if a Fire Department, Police Department, City

Hall or some other public building wants to put out a nativity, then

they should be able to do so without the government saying they can't do

it, because it might offend someone. I enjoy seeing how other countries

celebrate Christmas or not celebrate it. Most countries have a winter

celebration of some sort... I enjoy learning about them. But, this is

the U.S. Our country was founded on " christian " principals, public

offices/buildings shouldn't have to worry whether or not a nativity will

offend someone.

 

> > > We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,

> > > Russian, or any other language.

> > > Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the

> language!

>

> Australia is also a very rich and diverse society precisely because of the

> culture that non English speakers have introduced here. Without that

> culture we would be a very bland society, eating bland food. We have many

> fine cultural festivals here that have been introduced by other races and

> societies, just as I expect you have in the US. And I can guarantee that

> the many thriving restaurants here are not successful because they serve

> food perfected by the English settlers!

 

I don't have a problem with people bringing in their cultural

differances. I enjoy eating foods from many countries. That is not the

problem. The problem is the people who come into our country and expect

us to learn their language in order to communicate with them. They need

to learn our language if they plan on living in our country. I would

learn French if I moved to France. I wouldn't expect them to speak to

me in English. Yes, it would be nice if they did, but I wouldn't demand

it. I would have to learn that culture, not force them to change to get

along with me and what I might be offended by/with. It isn't right for

a woman or man to get a drivers license in the U.S and not show her/his

face. Her culture says she can't show her face, her culture also says

she can't drive because she is a woman. She comes to the U.S and wants

to drive but not show her face? That isn't right. Anyone can now use

her drivers license as long as they keep their face covered.

 

> Many of those people who introduced us to those cultures (and continue

> to do

> so) weren't capable of speaking perfect English when they arrived. But

> they've contributed in so many other ways. As part of the bigger picture,

> language is a minor consideration for the short term.

 

We don't expect them to speak perfect English when they first arrive.

We do expect them to be able to speak fairly well by the end of two years.

 

> > > " In God We Trust " is our national motto. This is not some

> Christian, right

> > > wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian

> men and women,

> > > on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly

> documented.

>

> And I would argue that those Christian principles include tolerance,

> compassion, fairness, empathy and forgiveness, which very much seem to be

> lacking in the tone of this article.

 

I don't see us lacking in tolerance, compassion, fairness, empathy or

forgiveness. We expect immigrants to respect our culture and to learn

our language. They expect the same from us when we move to their countries.

 

> > > It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our

> schools. If God

> > > offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as

> > > your new home, because God is part of our culture.

>

> There's also been a move to remove religious references from our

> schools in

> Australia and I see this as a more pragmatic approach. Not just

> because we

> are a multicultural society comprising many different religions, but also

> because many people here reject the notion of there being " one god "

> who all

> believe in. Religion and spirituality takes many different forms, and if

> someone suggested to me I should move to another country because I reject

> formalised religion and prefer not to see it in public places, I'd be

> highly

> offended.

 

I don't agree with removing God from schools or public buildings. True,

not everyone worships the same " god " . But, most of us do

worship/believe in someone we refer to as god/goddess. What is the

problem of putting your god of choice in the words? If you choose not

to worship or believe in a god what is the problem of allowing others to

do so? You might be offended to see these writings but it offends us to

have them taken down. Where is the happy medium? I don't know. Maybe

a bit of tolerance wouldn't be amiss?

Any country you go to will have some form of religion in public places.

They are not forcing you to believe in their religion but it is still

out in the open. If you don't agree with what they are doing and you

voice your disapproval and say you are offended, you may find yourself

being laughed at, ignored, put in prison or dead - depending on the

country and the mood of the person you are complaining to.

 

Please remember, the above was written in a reflective mood/tone of voice.

 

Regina