Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates water metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Thomas Sørensen 13 June 2007 06:45 Chinese Medicine Teethmarks Dear Group, Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular sign relating it to different pathogenic factors? Best regards, Thomas Sorensen -- Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin Albanigade 23A, Kld. 5000 Odense C Denmark Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 info@orientalskmedi <info%40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk www.orientalskmedicin.dk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of the tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this manifest in a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and withered tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with teethmarks where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but rather to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto: > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > water > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > only > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > this > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall > or > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > communication. > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > sender > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of Thomas > Sørensen > 13 June 2007 06:45 > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Teethmarks > > Dear Group, > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular > sign > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > -- > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > 5000 Odense C > Denmark > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Right, and because the tongue is swollen, it gets in the way of the teeth. Two of the ways to eliminate the dampness are either to dry it using a formula like Er Chen Tang, or more aromatically resolving the damp turbidity using something like Ping Wei San or Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San, depending upon the other accompanying symptoms. Good night all from California, Yehuda Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates water metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Thomas Sørensen 13 June 2007 06:45 Chinese Medicine Teethmarks Dear Group, Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular sign relating it to different pathogenic factors? Best regards, Thomas Sorensen -- Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin Albanigade 23A, Kld. 5000 Odense C Denmark Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 info@orientalskmedi <info%40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk www.orientalskmedicin.dk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that immediately interrupts that flow. Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari wrote: That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of the tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this manifest in a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and withered tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with teethmarks where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but rather to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto: > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > water > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > only > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > this > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall > or > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > communication. > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > sender > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of Thomas > Sørensen > 13 June 2007 06:45 > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Teethmarks > > Dear Group, > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular > sign > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > -- > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > 5000 Odense C > Denmark > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other symptoms and signs should correlate. Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/13, : > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated with > the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > immediately interrupts that flow. > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of the > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this manifest > in > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and withered > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with teethmarks > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but rather > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > >: > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > water > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > Editor > > Times > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > enquiries<enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiri\ es%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > > only > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must > not > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > > this > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall > > or > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > communication. > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > > sender > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > Sørensen > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Teethmarks > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular > > sign > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > -- > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > Denmark > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info%25> > 40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Hi, I thought the reason we see teeth marks on a spleen deficient person, stems from the fact that the spleen controls the muscles. When the spleen is deficient the muscles tone is poor, and thus the tongue tone is weak enough so the teeth leave marks on its edges. Guy 2007/6/13, : > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated with > the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > immediately interrupts that flow. > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of the > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this manifest > in > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and withered > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with teethmarks > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but rather > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > >: > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > water > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue will > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > Editor > > Times > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > enquiries<enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiri\ es%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > > only > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must > not > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > > this > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall > > or > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > communication. > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > > sender > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > Sørensen > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Teethmarks > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular > > sign > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > -- > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > Denmark > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info%25> > 40orientalskmedicin.dk> cin.dk > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang in particular) def? Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be seen > in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue would > be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks would be > a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an otherwise > not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either in the > intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, : > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated with > > the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of the > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > manifest in > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > withered > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with > > teethmarks > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > rather > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > >: > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > water > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > will > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > Editor > > > Times > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > enquiries<enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiri\ es%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > > > only > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must > > not > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > > > this > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > that > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > shall > > > or > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > communication. > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > > > sender > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40><Chinese Medicine%40>] > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > Sørensen > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this particular > > > sign > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > -- > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > 5000 Odense C > > > Denmark > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info%25> > > 40orientalskmedicin.dk > cin.dk > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that pushing it? .....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang > in particular) def? > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of > > > the > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > > manifest in > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > > withered > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with > > > teethmarks > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > > rather > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > >: > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > > water > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > > will > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > Editor > > > > Times > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > enquiries<enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiri\ es%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information > > > intended > > > > only > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you > > > must not > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. > > > Although > > > > this > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > > that > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > > shall > > > > or > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > > communication. > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. > > > The > > > > sender > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40><Chinese Medicine%40>] > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > Sørensen > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com><Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > particular > > > > sign > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info%25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > cin.dk > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Hi All- In addition to Spleen Qi Deficiency generating dampness, which causes the tongue to swell and push against the teeth (causing teethmarks), one of my teachers also explained that teethmarks can be caused by people with a " liver excess " (he wasn't specific as to what kind of excess), leading to yang rising and causing the person to consciously or unconsciously (as in sleep) thrust their tongues into their teeth, causing teethmarks. These are often the same people who grind their teeth (bruxism) in their sleep. I have seen teethmarks with both kinds of presentations, and the latter (unless there is co-existent Spleen Qi Deficiency Dampness) does not feature a swollen tongue. In fact, in addition to the tongue having teethmarks, the sides are sometimes quite ragged and chewed in appearance with liver excess. The liver patterns I have seen which correlate with this include Liver Qi Stagnation, Liver Qi Stagnation causing heat and hyperactivity of Liver Yang, and the same leading to Liver Fire. I have seen 3 patients this spring with tongues that match one of these patterns, and none of them have a swollen tongue - in fact, in all cases, the tongues were quite thin and slightly red to rather red, without the hallmark features of Yin Deficiency save the coat being thin or absent in the areas where the teethmarks appear. Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari wrote: Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that pushing it? ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... Best regards, Thomas Sorensen Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Hi Thomas: Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid index. Have a great day! Eclea Chinese Medicine , " Thomas Sørensen " <aikinohari wrote: > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that > pushing it? > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang > > in particular) def? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of > > > > the > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > > > manifest in > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > > > withered > > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with > > > > teethmarks > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > > > rather > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > > > water > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > > > will > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > Editor > > > > > Times > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > enquiries<enquiries% 40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information > > > > intended > > > > > only > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you > > > > must not > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. > > > > Although > > > > > this > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > > > that > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > > > shall > > > > > or > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > > > communication. > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. > > > > The > > > > > sender > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40> > > > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chin ese_Medicine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40>] > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40> > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > particular > > > > > sign > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% 25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > > cin.dk > > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 I don't agree with that analysis necessarily. . .sometimes that might be true, but sometimes the tongue is pathologically swollen from retained dampness. You can usually tell, the tongue is usually normal size when the teethmarks are caused by the relationship of the jaw size to the mouth. On Jun 13, 2007, at 7:44 AM, ecleea wrote: > Hi Thomas: > Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is > pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. > When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, > someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of > the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's > too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on > the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid > index. > > Have a great day! > Eclea > Chinese Medicine , " Thomas > Sørensen " <aikinohari wrote: > > > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is > that > > pushing it? > > > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the > SanJiao's > > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or > Kid (Yang > > > in particular) def? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks > could be > > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of > the tongue > > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and > tooth marks > > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more > appropriately in an > > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below > skin) - either > > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body > manifesting as ie > > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue > reading (Crack > > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the > back/front of the > > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm > (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could > then point to a > > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of > course other > > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area > associated > > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the > phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the > liver is > > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a > pathogen that > > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that > the teethmarks > > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the > periferi of > > > > > the > > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's > a general > > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't > this > > > > > manifest in > > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can > coexist with the > > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal > and > > > > > withered > > > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients > with > > > > > teethmarks > > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp > def, but > > > > > rather > > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto > <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that > regulates > > > > > > water > > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then > the tongue > > > > > will > > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > > Editor > > > > > > Times > > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > > enquiries<enquiries% > 40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential > information > > > > > intended > > > > > > only > > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in > error you > > > > > must not > > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify > sender. > > > > > Although > > > > > > this > > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, > e-mail > > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no > warranty > > > > > that > > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this > transmission > > > > > shall > > > > > > or > > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an > offer or > > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by > electronic > > > > > > communication. > > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate > communications. > > > > > The > > > > > > sender > > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, > Wokingham, > > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chin > ese_Medicine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40>] > > > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue > are a > > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > > particular > > > > > > sign > > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% > 25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > > > cin.dk > > > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 A perhaps relevant point here is that many people in modern times DO have crowded teeth due to small/deformed dental arches. Some attribute this to the peculiarities of the modern diet (high sugar + refined foods etc). This could create toothmarks as an artifact of a poorly developed jaw. Hugo ecleea <physician Chinese Medicine Wednesday, 13 June, 2007 7:44:45 AM Re: Teeth marks Hi Thomas: Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid index. Have a great day! Eclea Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Thomas Sørensen " <aikinohari@ ...> wrote: > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that > pushing it? > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ...>: > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang > > in particular) def? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ...>: > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < >: > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ... <aikinohari% 40gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of > > > > the > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > > > manifest in > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > > > withered > > > > tongues with teethmarks.. .. and very often I see patients with > > > > teethmarks > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > > > rather > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering... . > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto@ ...<attiliodalbe rto%40. co.uk> > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > > > water > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > > > will > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > Editor > > > > > Times > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > enquiries@.. .<enquiries% 40chinesemedicineti mes.com>< enquiries% 40chinesemedicin etimes.com> > > > > > <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/> www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/forum/ index.php> > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com/ forum/index. php > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information > > > > intended > > > > > only > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you > > > > must not > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. > > > > Although > > > > > this > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > > > that > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > > > shall > > > > > or > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > > > communication. > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. > > > > The > > > > > sender > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medi cine%40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chin ese_Medicine% 40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>] > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > To: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medi cine%40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > particular > > > > > sign > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% 25>40orientalskmedi cin.dk> > > > > cin.dk > > > > > www.orientalskmedic in.dk > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 I've also heard from a doctor in China that it maybe due to a Heart Qi deficiency. This is a mix of CM and WM as the heart controls blood circulation in WM and can therefore control Qi circulation. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro 13 June 2007 22:46 Chinese Medicine Re: Teeth marks A perhaps relevant point here is that many people in modern times DO have crowded teeth due to small/deformed dental arches. Some attribute this to the peculiarities of the modern diet (high sugar + refined foods etc). This could create toothmarks as an artifact of a poorly developed jaw. Hugo ecleea <physician@hungerfor <physician%40hungerfordmedicalinc.com> dmedicalinc.com> Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine Wednesday, 13 June, 2007 7:44:45 AM Re: Teeth marks Hi Thomas: Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid index. Have a great day! Eclea Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Thomas Sørensen " <aikinohari@ ...> wrote: > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that > pushing it? > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ...>: > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang > > in particular) def? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ...>: > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < >: > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari@ ... <aikinohari% 40gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of > > > > the > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > > > manifest in > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > > > withered > > > > tongues with teethmarks.. .. and very often I see patients with > > > > teethmarks > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > > > rather > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering... . > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto@ ...<attiliodalbe rto%40. co.uk> > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > > > water > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > > > will > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > Editor > > > > > Times > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > enquiries@.. .<enquiries% 40chinesemedicineti mes.com>< enquiries% 40chinesemedicin etimes.com> > > > > > <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/> www.chinesemedicine times.com > > > > > <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/forum/ index.php> > > > > > www.chinesemedicine times.com/ forum/index. php > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information > > > > intended > > > > > only > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you > > > > must not > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. > > > > Although > > > > > this > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > > > that > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > > > shall > > > > > or > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > > > communication. > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. > > > > The > > > > > sender > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medi cine%40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chin ese_Medicine% 40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>] > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > To: Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medi cine%40. com><Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > particular > > > > > sign > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% 25>40orientalskmedi cin.dk> > > > > cin.dk > > > > > www.orientalskmedic in.dk > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Like all symptomology and diagnosis in Chinese medicine, no sign is taken in isolation. It is in the confirmation of pulse, channel palpation, abdominal palpation, tongue inspection, color, and symptoms that we are able to tell what toothmarks mean. Everything has to be taken in total context in pattern differentiation. On Jun 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > I've also heard from a doctor in China that it maybe due to a Heart Qi > deficiency. This is a mix of CM and WM as the heart controls blood > circulation in WM and can therefore control Qi circulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Absolutely Mr. Rosenberg! It just struck me that all the textbooks I ever came across Sp def/Dampness was mechanically assigned the sign of tooth marks exclusively although I can see that it is not necessarily so in clinical practice. I would like to see some research on the whole jaw being to small to house the tongue properly point..... btw it would follow that if this is so then anyone with a swollen tongue should have tooth marks due narrowing of the jaw? This is not what I have observed in clinic! and besides tongue diagnosis is based on observation of phenoma - wouldn't it be expected that if the jaw had narrowed down so many people that many of us and the " modern " masters like Giovanni would have noticed and followed up on it? Thank you all for the responses on this thread! Always something to learn Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/14, <zrosenbe: > > Like all symptomology and diagnosis in Chinese medicine, no sign is > taken in isolation. It is in the confirmation of pulse, channel > palpation, abdominal palpation, tongue inspection, color, and > symptoms that we are able to tell what toothmarks mean. Everything > has to be taken in total context in pattern differentiation. > > > On Jun 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > I've also heard from a doctor in China that it maybe due to a Heart Qi > > deficiency. This is a mix of CM and WM as the heart controls blood > > circulation in WM and can therefore control Qi circulation. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 I concur with Z'ev that sometimes the tongue is thin and flat and there are teeth marks. In my practice I differentiate Spleen Qi deficiency from dampness pretty carefully, not making the assumption that one implies the other. Teeth marks, for me, indicate Spleen Qi deficiency while a swollen tongue or a thick moss indicate dampness or Yin pathogen accumulation. In fact sometimes, when the Yin pathogen resolves, tooth marks are revealed that were not visible when the tongue was swollen. I don't know why teeth marks occur when the Spleen Qi is deficient but I have found it to be a reliable marker for that (I don't agree with Jake Fratkin). I feel we should be careful in our inquiry as to why the teeth marks occur not to add pathology that is not there - i.e. dampness or Liver involvement. I've also found that teeth marks by themselves are a mild indicator of Spleen Qi deficiency and often, if that is the only sign, supplementing the Spleen will not be the focus of my treatment. Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Hi Thomas, it was me with the small jaw thing, just to be clear. The definitive work on this was published in a fairly famous book called " Nutrition and Physical Degneration " by Weston Price. As far as the phenomena being noted, what you say is possible. I only mention it as an idea. I imagine that it would take a lifetime or longer to figure these types of differences out, as well as being exposed to sufficient amount of patients with normal and narrowed dental arches. Again, it's just an idea. Thanks, Hugo Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari I would like to see some research on the whole jaw being to small to house the tongue properly point..... btw it would follow that if this is so then anyone with a swollen tongue should have tooth marks due narrowing of the jaw? This is not what I have observed in clinic! and besides tongue diagnosis is based on observation of phenoma - wouldn't it be expected that if the jaw had narrowed down so many people that many of us and the " modern " masters like Giovanni would have noticed and followed up on it? Thank you all for the responses on this thread! Always something to learn Best regards, Thomas Sorensen 2007/6/14, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>: > > Like all symptomology and diagnosis in Chinese medicine, no sign is > taken in isolation. It is in the confirmation of pulse, channel > palpation, abdominal palpation, tongue inspection, color, and > symptoms that we are able to tell what toothmarks mean. Everything > has to be taken in total context in pattern differentiation. > > > On Jun 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > > > I've also heard from a doctor in China that it maybe due to a Heart Qi > > deficiency. This is a mix of CM and WM as the heart controls blood > > circulation in WM and can therefore control Qi circulation. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Sharon What do you need to see and hear to verify spleen def? - sharon weizenbaum Chinese Medicine Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:55 AM Re: Teeth marks I concur with Z'ev that sometimes the tongue is thin and flat and there are teeth marks. In my practice I differentiate Spleen Qi deficiency from dampness pretty carefully, not making the assumption that one implies the other. Teeth marks, for me, indicate Spleen Qi deficiency while a swollen tongue or a thick moss indicate dampness or Yin pathogen accumulation. In fact sometimes, when the Yin pathogen resolves, tooth marks are revealed that were not visible when the tongue was swollen. I don't know why teeth marks occur when the Spleen Qi is deficient but I have found it to be a reliable marker for that (I don't agree with Jake Fratkin). I feel we should be careful in our inquiry as to why the teeth marks occur not to add pathology that is not there - i.e. dampness or Liver involvement. I've also found that teeth marks by themselves are a mild indicator of Spleen Qi deficiency and often, if that is the only sign, supplementing the Spleen will not be the focus of my treatment. Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Hi Andrea, if you look at the Weston Price research about nutrition, -he reckons it is a sign of degeneration due to bad diets... Best Regards, Andrea Hehlmann www.hehlis-holistics.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 This is interesting, Ecles. I also find that people often have teeth that crowd their mouths. Yet, it makes absolutely no sense at all that this would be so. Why would we have more teeth, or bigger teeth, than our mouths can accommodate? Any ideas as to the cause? ecleea <physician wrote: Hi Thomas: Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid index. Have a great day! Eclea Chinese Medicine , " Thomas Sørensen " <aikinohari wrote: > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is that > pushing it? > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > Best regards, > > Thomas Sorensen > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the SanJiao's > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or Kid (Yang > > in particular) def? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks could be > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of the tongue > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and tooth marks > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more appropriately in an > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below skin) - either > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body manifesting as ie > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue reading (Crack > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the back/front of the > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could then point to a > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of course other > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area associated > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the liver is > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a pathogen that > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that the teethmarks > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the periferi of > > > > the > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's a general > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't this > > > > manifest in > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can coexist with the > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal and > > > > withered > > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients with > > > > teethmarks > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp def, but > > > > rather > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that regulates > > > > > water > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then the tongue > > > > will > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > Editor > > > > > Times > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > enquiries<enquiries% 40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential information > > > > intended > > > > > only > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you > > > > must not > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. > > > > Although > > > > > this > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty > > > > that > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > > > > shall > > > > > or > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > > > > > communication. > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. > > > > The > > > > > sender > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40> > > > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chin ese_Medicine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40>] > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi cine%40><Chinese Medicine% 40> > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue are a > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > particular > > > > > sign > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% 25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > > cin.dk > > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Been thinking about the questions posed about why teeth might be too big for the mouth. I'm wondering if it might come from how an infant is fed in the first year of life. Here's my thought..... Formula fed babies, drinking from bottles, have a very different physical experience than breastfed infants. It's harder work to get milk out of a breast than a bottle, and the exercise strengthens the jaws, promotes good jaw development and encourages the growth of straight, healthy teeth. Also, babies who are exclusively breast fed are receiving a food that is absolutely perfect for them. I would assume that formula stresses the infant's Spleen qi, as would being given solid foods too early. It might be interesting to start asking patients, on intake, how they were fed as infants and then correlate that with what we see on the tongue. Peace, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Maimonides in his medical writings said that the excessive use of milk products damages the jaw. In other words, excesses of cow's milk can change the human skeleton, effecting the size of the jaw in relation to the skull. On Jun 14, 2007, at 2:10 PM, wrote: > This is interesting, Ecles. I also find that people often have > teeth that crowd their mouths. Yet, it makes absolutely no sense at > all that this would be so. Why would we have more teeth, or bigger > teeth, than our mouths can accommodate? Any ideas as to the cause? > > > > ecleea <physician wrote: Hi Thomas: > Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is > pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. > When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, > someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of > the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's > too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on > the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid > index. > > Have a great day! > Eclea > Chinese Medicine , " Thomas > Sørensen " <aikinohari wrote: > > > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is > that > > pushing it? > > > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the > SanJiao's > > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or > Kid (Yang > > > in particular) def? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks > could be > > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of > the tongue > > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and > tooth marks > > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more > appropriately in an > > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below > skin) - either > > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body > manifesting as ie > > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue > reading (Crack > > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the > back/front of the > > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm > (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could > then point to a > > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of > course other > > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area > associated > > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the > phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the > liver is > > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a > pathogen that > > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that > the teethmarks > > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the > periferi of > > > > > the > > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's > a general > > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't > this > > > > > manifest in > > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can > coexist with the > > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal > and > > > > > withered > > > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients > with > > > > > teethmarks > > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp > def, but > > > > > rather > > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto > <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that > regulates > > > > > > water > > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then > the tongue > > > > > will > > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > > Editor > > > > > > Times > > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > > enquiries<enquiries% > 40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential > information > > > > > intended > > > > > > only > > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in > error you > > > > > must not > > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify > sender. > > > > > Although > > > > > > this > > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, > e-mail > > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no > warranty > > > > > that > > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this > transmission > > > > > shall > > > > > > or > > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an > offer or > > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by > electronic > > > > > > communication. > > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate > communications. > > > > > The > > > > > > sender > > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, > Wokingham, > > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chin > ese_Medicine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40>] > > > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue > are a > > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > > particular > > > > > > sign > > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% > 25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > > > cin.dk > > > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 The cranial osteopathy lit has some interesting info on such things alon lizzzrd wrote: Been thinking about the questions posed about why teeth might be too big for the mouth. I'm wondering if it might come from how an infant is fed in the first year of life. Here's my thought..... Formula fed babies, drinking from bottles, have a very different physical experience than breastfed infants. It's harder work to get milk out of a breast than a bottle, and the exercise strengthens the jaws, promotes good jaw development and encourages the growth of straight, healthy teeth. Also, babies who are exclusively breast fed are receiving a food that is absolutely perfect for them. I would assume that formula stresses the infant's Spleen qi, as would being given solid foods too early. It might be interesting to start asking patients, on intake, how they were fed as infants and then correlate that with what we see on the tongue. Peace, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Curious, Z'ev. I wonder how this works. Andrea Beth <zrosenbe wrote: Maimonides in his medical writings said that the excessive use of milk products damages the jaw. In other words, excesses of cow's milk can change the human skeleton, effecting the size of the jaw in relation to the skull. On Jun 14, 2007, at 2:10 PM, wrote: > This is interesting, Ecles. I also find that people often have > teeth that crowd their mouths. Yet, it makes absolutely no sense at > all that this would be so. Why would we have more teeth, or bigger > teeth, than our mouths can accommodate? Any ideas as to the cause? > > > > ecleea <physician wrote: Hi Thomas: > Personally, I think using teeth marks for diagnosis, in general, is > pushing it. I went to a seminar earlier this year with Jake Fratkin. > When he made a comment about teeth marks I said to myself, " Finally, > someone has seen the light! " His comment was, " Teeth marks most of > the time don't tell you anything. Many people have a mouth that's > too small to accommodate their teeth, so you'll see teeth marks on > the tongue. " In my opinion, teeth marks are not a reliable fluid > index. > > Have a great day! > Eclea > Chinese Medicine , " Thomas > Sørensen " <aikinohari wrote: > > > > Ultimately making tooth marks a sign of Kid def/MingMen def? Or is > that > > pushing it? > > > > ....sorry for breaking the post up like this.... > > > > Best regards, > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > So could it be interpreted more as a sign of def. of the > SanJiao's > > > distribution of Water and Qi due to either Sp def, lu def and/or > Kid (Yang > > > in particular) def? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari: > > > > > > > > Would it be completely crazy to hypothesize that tooth marks > could be > > > > seen in relation to San Jiao. If this was so then the edge of > the tongue > > > > would be equivalent to the exterior condition of the body and > tooth marks > > > > would be a manifestation of Dampness and/or (maybe more > appropriately in an > > > > otherwise not swollen tongue) phlegm in the exterior (below > skin) - either > > > > in the intestines or in the exterior portion of the body > manifesting as ie > > > > overweight, nodules etc. Depending on the rest of the tongue > reading (Crack > > > > in ST/SP area, Thick, greasy coating, swelling to the > back/front of the > > > > tongue, etc) it would give the cause of the Dampness/Phlegm > (Kid, Sp, Lu) > > > > No other significant change in tongue than toothmarks could > then point to a > > > > more exterior than interior condition, ie damp-stroke? ...of > course other > > > > symptoms and signs should correlate. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, yehuda frischman < : > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I've noticed that as well, generally in the area > associated > > > > > with the Liver and GB. Perhaps we could explain the > phenomenon of teethmarks > > > > > occurring there as a manifestation of stagnation, and as the > liver is > > > > > responsible for the smooth flow of Qi, the dampness is a > pathogen that > > > > > immediately interrupts that flow. > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sørensen <aikinohari <aikinohari%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > That we agree on, but I think it's interesting to note that > the teethmarks > > > > > are outside of the " normal " area of the Sp; it's in the > periferi of > > > > > the > > > > > tongue. Also teethmarks are an uneven swelling - If there's > a general > > > > > problem in water metabolism (due to sp def or not) wouldn't > this > > > > > manifest in > > > > > a general swelling of the tongue, which of course can > coexist with the > > > > > teethmarks, but this is not always the case. I do see normal > and > > > > > withered > > > > > tongues with teethmarks.... and very often I see patients > with > > > > > teethmarks > > > > > where the pulse/symptoms and signs doesn't correlate to Sp > def, but > > > > > rather > > > > > to a Kid def....... Just wondering.... > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > 2007/6/13, Attilio D'Alberto > <attiliodalberto<attiliodalberto%40.co.uk> > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically put, the Spleen is one of the three organs that > regulates > > > > > > water > > > > > > metabolism in the body. If the Spleen is deficient, then > the tongue > > > > > will > > > > > > swell in size because water metabolism is not regulated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attilio D'Alberto > > > > > > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > > > > > > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > > > > > > Editor > > > > > > Times > > > > > > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > > > > > > enquiries<enquiries% > 40chinesemedicinetimes.com><enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > > > > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > This message contains privileged and confidential > information > > > > > intended > > > > > > only > > > > > > for the addressee. If you have received this message in > error you > > > > > must not > > > > > > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify > sender. > > > > > Although > > > > > > this > > > > > > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, > e-mail > > > > > > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no > warranty > > > > > that > > > > > > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this > transmission > > > > > shall > > > > > > or > > > > > > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an > offer or > > > > > > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by > electronic > > > > > > communication. > > > > > > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate > communications. > > > > > The > > > > > > sender > > > > > > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, > Wokingham, > > > > > > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chin > ese_Medicine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40>] > > > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Thomas > > > > > > Sørensen > > > > > > 13 June 2007 06:45 > > > > > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi > cine%40><Chinese Medicine% > 40> > > > > > > > > > > > Teethmarks > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone with an explanation of why teethmarks on the tongue > are a > > > > > > manifestation of Sp def/Dampness? Anyone with ideas on this > > > > > particular > > > > > > sign > > > > > > relating it to different pathogenic factors? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Sorensen > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > > > > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > > > > > 5000 Odense C > > > > > > Denmark > > > > > > > > > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > > > > > info@orientalskmedi <info% <info%25> <info% > 25>40orientalskmedicin.dk> > > > > > cin.dk > > > > > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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