Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 >> Dear Trish, I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has survived 25 years of growth in the field. << Hi Bob and Z'ev, Thank you very much for your insights. It's a little difficult to sort this type of thing out when you are still a prospective student. The person I spoke with graduated 2 years ago, has her own practice and " can explain to you the fundamental differences between TCM and five element acupuncture " . This is the only person the admissions office provided for me to contact and the only 5E school I have spoken with, so, hopefully, not all 5E schools are promoting this. It seems that the main reason a school can qualify as a CA-approved school is that it offers many hours of western/bioscience courses, and not necessarily that the acupuncture/herb training is standardized. I am considering three schools. Two are in the state I reside in (North Carolina) and one is the 5E school in Florida. They are all accredited schools but all have a very different acupuncture program. The NC schools only grant a diploma in acupuncture while the FL school grants a master of science. Daoist Traditions in Asheville teaches acupuncture and herbs, says it teaches classical chinese medicine (Jeffrey Yuen teaches there 4 days out of the year). It had its first graduating class this year (all 9 graduates passed the boards) and is in candidacy status for accreditation. The school is voluntarily applying for full accreditation this year even though it can remain in candidacy status for 3 years. Jung Tao in Boone, NC teaches only classical acupuncture (based on Van Nghi's teachings) and no herbs. Its main teacher no longer teaches (I believe he is ill) and not sure how this will affect re-accreditation in two years. It is very attractive to working people as it meets 5 days/month. This was the most open school in terms of providing me a list of their entire graduating class (all passed the boards). All their grads were happy to talk to me about the school. Academy for 5E in Florida has 14 day intensives every 4 months for the first 2 years, then the student must relocate to FL for the clinic year. Seemed promising as will likely be CA-approved, teaches acu and herbs, good schedule for a working person, I already have all the bioscience/western med classes...not so sure now. Well, this is what I shall be doing over the next few weeks, comparing the pluses/minuses. It is good to know that these are all threads in chinese medicine and it seems the best path to follow is to get a good foundation. Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Anne, I don't think anyone has said that Worsley's system (Leamington acupuncture) wasn't effective. The system is very patient-centered, a lot of time and attention is given to the patient, and this is very important. Each patient is felt to be unique, and their feelings are shown to be important. Five phases can also be an excellent paradigm for open-ended patterning of symptoms. However, in my opinion, it is not enough to treat everything (internal disorders of the zang-fu, external contractions, for example). The discussion was about the 'us vs. them' tenor that still seems to inhabit some practitioners and schools, based on a very sophomoric and superficial understanding of Chinese medicine. On Jun 11, 2007, at 7:21 PM, anne.crowley wrote: > Anne: He was very effective. > There was a study done in the TAI clinic years ago, that showed a > very high level of patient satisfaction. Again, what works is what > is important. > > I have to say what is taught at TAI, my 5E school, is based on the > 5 Phases. Even TAI is only basing their teachings on what Worsley > taught the earlier practitioners. It has been extremely effective > and changed many people's lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 The college has now moved to Hatton in Warwick. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 12 June 2007 06:30 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Five Element Acupuncture Anne, I don't think anyone has said that Worsley's system (Leamington acupuncture) wasn't effective. The system is very patient-centered, a lot of time and attention is given to the patient, and this is very important. Each patient is felt to be unique, and their feelings are shown to be important. Five phases can also be an excellent paradigm for open-ended patterning of symptoms. However, in my opinion, it is not enough to treat everything (internal disorders of the zang-fu, external contractions, for example). The discussion was about the 'us vs. them' tenor that still seems to inhabit some practitioners and schools, based on a very sophomoric and superficial understanding of Chinese medicine. On Jun 11, 2007, at 7:21 PM, anne.crowley@ <anne.crowley%40comcast.net> comcast.net wrote: > Anne: He was very effective. > There was a study done in the TAI clinic years ago, that showed a > very high level of patient satisfaction. Again, what works is what > is important. > > I have to say what is taught at TAI, my 5E school, is based on the > 5 Phases. Even TAI is only basing their teachings on what Worsley > taught the earlier practitioners. It has been extremely effective > and changed many people's lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 People should never satisfy by what the are taught and hear - that's the lazy option - the choice not to evolve!! It strikes me again and again that so many practitioners in this wonderful tradition do not bother to make inquiries into the foundation of theory themselves - they reduce themselves by choice to mere needle-stickers and prescription-sellers!! Whichever " style " of OM you practice.... go study the classics, go observe anyone with a 10 year+ succesful clinic of any style - even " medical acupuncture " and find out for yourselves how your teachers reached their conclusions, and how different succesful practioners practice - test hands-on, correlate with the classics and find your own " style " ! How else can OM evolve? How did Li Dong Yuan " come up " with the Pi Wei Lun? Use tradition to shed light on the future! You don't even have to be able to read Chinese to read them these days. You get decent translations of most of the main classical works! There are no excuses! I don't know about Worsley, but modern masters like the Dr. John F. Shen, Giovanni Macciocia, Lonny Jarrett etc. have there own personal take on how they practice and incorporate their own ideas and experiences from clinic as well as their personality into their body of knowledge as all the ancient masters of their time did, but they always base(d) their practice on the classics.... always... Before modern times an apprenticeship would easily last 10 years (in Japanese 5E traditions today apprenticeships after formal training often last several years including study of the classics). Kindly, Thomas Sorensen -- Althea Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin Albanigade 23A, Kld. 5000 Odense C Denmark Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 info www.orientalskmedicin.dk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hi all - I just retrieved yesterday's email, and noticed the huge response to this debate. Thank heaven for that, and I still feel the need to respond to Z'ev, whose post really riled me up. When I started training, I naively thought I would be learning acupuncture as it was practised 5,000 years ago. Thank heavens for all concerned I was wrong, else we'd still be using stone needles. In my second year I attended a seminar at a TCM school, where I was kindly (and somewhat superciliously) informed that 'I guess Five Element can sort things eventually.' Acupuncture is an organic, evolving medicine. There have been teachers for centuries who have studied and then put their own spin on it. I refer you to Jeffrey Yuen's lectures - he traces the history of the thinking/theory behind what we do often, and that thinking is always embedded in the socio/cultural context of the time. Has anyone studied the history of forbidden points? Sometimes they're forbidden, sometimes they're not. When I had to spend a year studying TCM to be able to speak it enough to pass the boards (and please don't get me started on that), I realized the foundations are the same: same Classics, same theories. Different approach to diagnosis, different needle techniques, different filter for treatment. So what? I see patients for frozen shoulder who experience great improvement after an AE drain. Great! I talk to people who've experienced a deepening in their knowledge of themselves and a strengthening of their core/selves from their TCM training. Also great! It all works. Please, folks. I'm a Five Element practitioner who knows a bit about her medicine and very little about TCM. As such, I'm not qualified to comment on the efficacy of those processes, or even on the processes themselves. I wish all of us would find a way to have a similar view. Karen R Adams Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) Turners Falls, MA 01351 wrote: > Dear Trish, > I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has > survived 25 years of growth in the field. Five phase (or 'elements') > theory and eight principle theory are simply two threads that run > through the history of Chinese medicine. They are tools to be used > by practitioners of Chinese medicine, and there is no exclusivity of > one from another. Five phase is not any more 'spiritual' than > TCM. . . after all, what are we saying here about 'spiritual'? Nor > does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on > 'symptomatic' treatment only. > > This was the dogma when I was in acupuncture school 28 years > ago. . . I went to an 'eight principle' school, and they were at war > with the local '5 element' school, each of which claimed to have the > 'real' Chinese medicine. With the extensive literature and knowledge > base that is now available, one can see the complexity of Chinese > medicine and culture, and such divides are just artificial. While I > have some critiques of modern TCM, it does fairly represent some > aspects of classical Chinese medicine. And five phase theory is an > integral part of Chinese medicine, along with six channels, four > aspects, three burners, and many other approaches. > > It is time for the '5E' folks to get with the times and stop > claiming to represent 'the real thing'. The Nan Jing has spawned > many different approaches to acupuncture, including the 5E school, > there is no basis for this argument. > > > On Jun 9, 2007, at 6:48 PM, pippa258 wrote: > > > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on > > the > > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. > > That it > > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the > > beginning > > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > > emotional. > > > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted > > except > > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > > order to be CA-approved. > > > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > > > Trish > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 My experience is that I have found effective, caring practitioners in TCM and 5-Element and I have also found pompous, bumblers in both. And many in the middle. When getting ready to make comments on another style of practice I recommend asking the following before commenting: 1. Is it true? 2. It is necessary to say? 3. Is it kind? Remember once you post a comment on the internet or in writing, it remains for a very long time. Duncan Chinese Medicine , pippa258 <pippa258 wrote: > > >> > > Dear Trish, > I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has > survived 25 years of growth in the field. << > > Hi Bob and Z'ev, > > Thank you very much for your insights. It's a little difficult to sort this type of thing out when you are still a prospective student. The person I spoke with graduated 2 years ago, has her own practice and " can explain to you the fundamental differences between TCM and five element acupuncture " . This is the only person the admissions office provided for me to contact and the only 5E school I have spoken with, so, hopefully, not all 5E schools are promoting this. > > It seems that the main reason a school can qualify as a CA-approved school is that it offers many hours of western/bioscience courses, and not necessarily that the acupuncture/herb training is standardized. I am considering three schools. Two are in the state I reside in (North Carolina) and one is the 5E school in Florida. They are all accredited schools but all have a very different acupuncture program. The NC schools only grant a diploma in acupuncture while the FL school grants a master of science. > > Daoist Traditions in Asheville teaches acupuncture and herbs, says it teaches classical chinese medicine (Jeffrey Yuen teaches there 4 days out of the year). It had its first graduating class this year (all 9 graduates passed the boards) and is in candidacy status for accreditation. The school is voluntarily applying for full accreditation this year even though it can remain in candidacy status for 3 years. > > Jung Tao in Boone, NC teaches only classical acupuncture (based on Van Nghi's teachings) and no herbs. Its main teacher no longer teaches (I believe he is ill) and not sure how this will affect re-accreditation in two years. It is very attractive to working people as it meets 5 days/month. This was the most open school in terms of providing me a list of their entire graduating class (all passed the boards). All their grads were happy to talk to me about the school. > > Academy for 5E in Florida has 14 day intensives every 4 months for the first 2 years, then the student must relocate to FL for the clinic year. Seemed promising as will likely be CA-approved, teaches acu and herbs, good schedule for a working person, I already have all the bioscience/western med classes...not so sure now. > > Well, this is what I shall be doing over the next few weeks, comparing the pluses/minuses. It is good to know that these are all threads in chinese medicine and it seems the best path to follow is to get a good foundation. > > Trish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hi all and Attilio, I was about to say something similar Attilio, but you beat me to it. I wanted to add that the dichotomy of mind-spirit is so /notpresent/ in Asia, that some modern western scholars even discuss how Asians " tend to somatise " their psychological disorders. I believe Vivian Hsu discusses this somewhere. It is very interesting to read about such misunderstandings. From what I have seen, older cultures often have a very advanced and subtle understanding of the western " mind-body connection " . This natural understanding is often described as a " somatisation " by some western camps. Hugo Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto Hi all, I think we should remember that the term spiritual is a western term not commonly used in Asia. It is us westerns that tend to split and categorise everything into individual topics and concepts when in-actual fact its viewed more as a whole in Asia. Of course, TCM deals with emotional/spirit disharmonies just like 5E, its a misconception to think it doesn't. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries@chineseme dicinetimes. com <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/> www.chinesemedicine times.com <http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/forum/ index.php> www.chinesemedicine times.com/ forum/index. php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of sharon weizenbaum 11 June 2007 13:11 Re:Five Element Acupuncture Hi Trish, I very much agree with Z'ev and find the split the 5 element school STILL makes between the physical and spiritual disheartening. Addressing the emotions and the spirit is inherent in any tradition that is able to assist in bringing organic balance to a dynamic gone awry. It is so integral to Chinese medicine that it does not need to be separated out as an emphasis as is done in the 5E tradition. I am, like Z'ev amazed that this tendency of the 5E tradition to split the emotions and spirit off from the body persists. An ability to use the messages of the body to come to a diagnosis does not mean that the emotions or spirit are not taken in as well - as causes of illness or as effects of physical imbalance. Certainly, an ability to hear the messages of physical and emotional signs and symptoms as we do in Classical Chinese medicine and to use these messages to guide treatment has helped many patients with psychological disorders as well as helping many patients feel more " right " within and as themselves. A practitioner does not have to use emotional and spiritual language at every turn in order for the medicine to have the depth to work on those levels. I would warn against being seduced by spiritual language as being the hallmark of a spiritual medicine. I am certain that the graduate you spoke to was simply giving you the 5E party line that she/he had learned in school and really does not begin to understand anything about the depth and breathe of Chinese medicine. If that is still the party line in these 5E schools, how ignorant and closed they are! I hope it is not still true across the board. I would suggest not just talking to recent graduates who notoriously, in any tradition, have a bit of the born-again perspective and have not been tempered by real life practice. I know many 5E practitioners in the area I live in who have been very disappointed in their ability to integrate body, emotions and spirit. These practitioners have radically moved their practices to acupuncture styles that see the body as an expression of spirit and honor it's messages (as opposed to just looking for subtle and subjective messages of spirit only and diminishing the body's ability to speak). Many of these practitioners have complained that the diagnostic methods of 5E are so subjective as to create a real lack of confidence in diagnosis. It is common that a patient will be diagnosed by various 5 E practitioners and each with see a different CF. As Z'ev points out, the tradition we link to when we begin our journey in traditional or classical Chinese medicine is very rich and very diverse. One benefit of TCM is that, though in most schools, your initial education will seem rather dry it opens the door to a lifetime of study and deepening. When you really start learning and integrating the classical roots, the beauty and effectiveness is rather astounding. In addition you will be connected to a vast lineage of predecessors. I know from talking to my 5E colleagues here that the 5E tradition promotes more of an insular community - that you either practice the tradition as it is and belong to the community OR you jump ship. So, in spite of the possible limitations of your initial TCM education, you set sail into an ocean of teachers, texts, predecessors etc that will continue to inspire and teach you for your whole career. When I view 5E acupuncture as a thread of a vast tradition, rather than as claiming to be the best or deepest or most spirit oriented, I can find what it offers of value. My 5E collegues who have " jumped ship " have also been able to find more value in the 5E tradition when they have integrated it into the ocean of teachings we come from. I also know a 5E practitioner (there are a lot in my area) who has stayed rather more orthodox and loved it and been successful yet has not remained critical of Classical or traditional Chinese medicine. The misunderstanding your recent graduate expresses does not shine the best light on the 5E tradition. Good luck with your decisions! Sharon I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the emotional. This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in order to be CA-approved. Is 5E very different from TCM? Trish Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz <sweiz% 40rcn.com> www.whitepinehealin garts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Duncan, Thank you for your e-mail and for your wonderful suggestions on communicating with each other. They are wise and useful, and I'm glad you proposed them. I have sometimes been shocked at the comments folks have made to each other on this list. Although I belong to several e-mail lists, this is the only one where sharp remarks are sometimes made to others. I find myself wondering why that would happen on a list where we're all interested in healing. Someone mentioned today that the treatment we give our patients starts the minute we greet them. I agree totally. I also think the way we treat others on this list, and indeed in every facet of our lives, isn't separate from what we have to offer our patients. In that spirit, I hope that my comments here have been gentle enough not to offend anyone. Peace, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hello everyone, I receive the digest version of the list and was amazed to see the response to my post. I hope I didn't open a can of worms as did not mean to offend but only to clarify what I was told. Thank you all so much for responding. I value all the posts on this subject. They have been enlightening and, more importantly, have shown the gentle, helpful spirit of this list. Trish > > Hi Trish, I very much agree with Z'ev and find the split the 5 > element school STILL makes between the physical and spiritual > disheartening. Addressing the emotions and the spirit is inherent in > any tradition that is able to assist in bringing organic balance to a > dynamic gone awry. It is so integral to Chinese medicine that it > does not need to be separated out as an emphasis as is done in the 5E > tradition. I am, like Z'ev amazed that this tendency of the 5E > tradition to split the emotions and spirit off from the body > persists. An ability to use the messages of the body to come to a > diagnosis does not mean that the emotions or spirit are not taken in > as well - as causes of illness or as effects of physical imbalance. > Certainly, an ability to hear the messages of physical and emotional > signs and symptoms as we do in Classical Chinese medicine and to use > these messages to guide treatment has helped many patients with > psychological disorders as well as helping many patients feel more > " right " within and as themselves. A practitioner does not have to > use emotional and spiritual language at every turn in order for the > medicine to have the depth to work on those levels. I would warn > against being seduced by spiritual language as being the hallmark of > a spiritual medicine. > > I am certain that the graduate you spoke to was simply giving you the > 5E party line that she/he had learned in school and really does not > begin to understand anything about the depth and breathe of Chinese > medicine. If that is still the party line in these 5E schools, how > ignorant and closed they are! I hope it is not still true across the > board. > > I would suggest not just talking to recent graduates who notoriously, > in any tradition, have a bit of the born-again perspective and have > not been tempered by real life practice. I know many 5E > practitioners in the area I live in who have been very disappointed > in their ability to integrate body, emotions and spirit. These > practitioners have radically moved their practices to acupuncture > styles that see the body as an expression of spirit and honor it's > messages (as opposed to just looking for subtle and subjective > messages of spirit only and diminishing the body's ability to speak). > Many of these practitioners have complained that the diagnostic > methods of 5E are so subjective as to create a real lack of > confidence in diagnosis. It is common that a patient will be > diagnosed by various 5 E practitioners and each with see a different CF. > > As Z'ev points out, the tradition we link to when we begin our > journey in traditional or classical Chinese medicine is very rich and > very diverse. One benefit of TCM is that, though in most schools, > your initial education will seem rather dry it opens the door to a > lifetime of study and deepening. When you really start learning and > integrating the classical roots, the beauty and effectiveness is > rather astounding. In addition you will be connected to a vast > lineage of predecessors. I know from talking to my 5E colleagues > here that the 5E tradition promotes more of an insular community - > that you either practice the tradition as it is and belong to the > community OR you jump ship. So, in spite of the possible limitations > of your initial TCM education, you set sail into an ocean of > teachers, texts, predecessors etc that will continue to inspire and > teach you for your whole career. > > When I view 5E acupuncture as a thread of a vast tradition, rather > than as claiming to be the best or deepest or most spirit oriented, I > can find what it offers of value. My 5E collegues who have " jumped > ship " have also been able to find more value in the 5E tradition when > they have integrated it into the ocean of teachings we come from. I > also know a 5E practitioner (there are a lot in my area) who has > stayed rather more orthodox and loved it and been successful yet has > not remained critical of Classical or traditional Chinese medicine. > The misunderstanding your recent graduate expresses does not shine > the best light on the 5E tradition. > > Good luck with your decisions! > > Sharon > > > > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > emotional. > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > order to be CA-approved. > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > Trish > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > 413-549-4021 > sweiz > www.whitepinehealingarts.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 I think the heated debates just show how much of an issue it is with practitioners. Discussing it is better than not, in my opinion. I generally feel it stems from 5E practitioners claiming their system is the real traditional form of acupuncture. TCM acupuncturists generally don't say such things. I've heard some older practitioners say that for many 5E practitioners it's almost a religion, you're either with them or against them. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of lizzzrd 12 June 2007 18:56 Chinese Medicine Re: Five Element Acupuncture Duncan, Thank you for your e-mail and for your wonderful suggestions on communicating with each other. They are wise and useful, and I'm glad you proposed them. I have sometimes been shocked at the comments folks have made to each other on this list. Although I belong to several e-mail lists, this is the only one where sharp remarks are sometimes made to others. I find myself wondering why that would happen on a list where we're all interested in healing. Someone mentioned today that the treatment we give our patients starts the minute we greet them. I agree totally. I also think the way we treat others on this list, and indeed in every facet of our lives, isn't separate from what we have to offer our patients. In that spirit, I hope that my comments here have been gentle enough not to offend anyone. Peace, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 > When you really start learning and integrating the classical roots, the beauty and effectiveness is rather astounding. In addition you will be connected to a vast lineage of predecessors. So, in spite of the possible limitations of your initial TCM education, you set sail into an ocean of teachers, texts, predecessors etc that will continue to inspire and teach you for your whole career. > Good luck with your decisions! > > Sharon Hi Sharon, I loved how you put this. I will be doing two school visits this month to see which one resonates. Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hi John, >>Have you looked at other schools in Florida?<< Yes, I have. Unfortunately, relocating for 3-4 years is not an option so have concentrated on schools that are within a commutable distance or that have a nontraditional schedule that is amenable to working folks. My thought was that since I have the western/biomed. sciences (B.S. Biology and R.N.), it would be okay to go to a school that does not offer these but that is accredited by ACAOM. Thank you for the book recommendations. The admissions officer at the 5E school also recommended Lonny Jarrett's book. I believe the school has many senior teachers because it's intensive teaching schedule works well for those who also have private practices in other states. Trish > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 >>Trish, I say attend whatever school looks good to you. If you're smart you'll realize when you're done that you don't know much, and you'll continue to study for the rest of your life.<< Thanks, Greg. It won't take acupuncture school to teach me this! >>This latter part, if you work and study hard, will be your " real " education. So, while important, don't obsess too much about the 3 or 4 years in school. > > Best wishes, > > Greg How about if the school does not teach herbs but classical acupuncture only? Is a good online course in Chinese herbs sufficient for the boards? Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: >> I would add, sit in on classes and talk to students from different schools. You will know what feels right to you.<< Hi Anne, I don't find you confrontational at all. My post was not intended to hurt feelings or call one branch of CM better than another. To the contrary, I find all these different opinions rather inspiring as you are all healing people using different techniques, methods, etc., and it makes me feel more relaxed about choosing a school. Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hi Attilio - I've been put-down by TCM practitioners who state that Five Element isn't real acupuncture. Interesting how the 'side' one is on seems to affect one's view of who is responsible for perpetuating what is untenable, eg which is the 'real acupuncture'. That's really been my beef in this whole discussion. Just simply who says what, as if it's the Truth. I find all acupuncture pretty near miraculous (tho probably explainable as I get more experience). I try very hard not to presume to tell patients/prospective students the difference. I just say we have different approaches to diagnosis and treatment planning. Unless and until I spend at least 3 years studying TCM, I am not qualified to make any other comments. Karen Karen R Adams Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) Turners Falls, MA 01351 Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > I think the heated debates just show how much of an issue it is with > practitioners. Discussing it is better than not, in my opinion. > > I generally feel it stems from 5E practitioners claiming their system > is the > real traditional form of acupuncture. TCM acupuncturists generally > don't say > such things. I've heard some older practitioners say that for many 5E > practitioners it's almost a religion, you're either with them or against > them. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries > <enquiries%40chinesemedicinetimes.com> > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/ > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php>> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended > only > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although > this > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission > shall or > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic > communication. > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The > sender > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40>] On Behalf Of > lizzzrd <lizzzrd%40optonline.net> > 12 June 2007 18:56 > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Five Element Acupuncture > > Duncan, > Thank you for your e-mail and for your wonderful suggestions on > communicating with each other. They are wise and useful, and I'm glad you > proposed them. I have sometimes been shocked at the comments folks > have made > to each other on this list. Although I belong to several e-mail lists, > this > is the only one where sharp remarks are sometimes made to others. I find > myself wondering why that would happen on a list where we're all > interested > in healing. > Someone mentioned today that the treatment we give our patients starts the > minute we greet them. I agree totally. I also think the way we treat > others > on this list, and indeed in every facet of our lives, isn't separate from > what we have to offer our patients. In that spirit, I hope that my > comments > here have been gentle enough not to offend anyone. > Peace, Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Belatedly joining this free-for-all… Random thoughts, and a question (skip to the end for that): 1) Clearly, as many have noted, many core aspects of TCM and 5E perspectives have been there across the span of CM (ca. 2200 years). Albeit, e.g. 8-principles dates much later, and tongue diagnosis, as we know it, is actually some 200 years old, etc.. And earliest 5E pattern associations are much more variegated than the modern. 2) There have been dichotomies between " schools " of thought from earliest times (Shang vs Xia, Kungzi vs Laozi), as well as those among the modern, Western flavors of CM interpretation. From what I've gathered, Li YuanDong (piweipai/earth school) and ZhangZiHe (gongxiapai/school attack and purge) at times " bashed " each other (or at least their followers did). E.g. is chaihu (Bupleurum) g-d's gift to liver treatment, or does it just " ravage the yin " ? Or, is harmonization method as noble/important or a cop-out? And there's that interesting article in E. Hsu's " Innovation in " on Chinese Southerners juxtaposing themselves and their medicine from the Northerners. Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:38:36 0700, " " <zrosenbe wrote: >> Nor does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on 'symptomatic' treatment only. and, Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:03:32 +0100, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: >> TCM deals with emotional/spirit disharmonies just like 5E, its a misconception to think it doesn't. Yes, but, as Hugo suggest: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 14:59:30 +0000 (GMT), Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> I wanted to add that the dichotomy of mind-spirit is so /not present/ in Asia, that some modern western scholars even discuss how Asians " tend to somatise " their psychological disorders. The meaning and practical nuances of " emotion " or " spirit " are, as far as I can discern, heavily culture-bound. Many of my teachers have mentioned Chinese " somatization " of symptoms, from Ted Kaptchuk to Jeffery Yuen, and many in between. Jeffery often quotes the Han texts supporting his interpretations of mood/emotion/temperament (of wei/ying/yuan energetic layers), taking the largely somatic (at least in most modern translations) symptom lists in the classics and interpreting how those symptoms might " feel " to our modern sensibilities. Quite vivid and convincing; at least brings the old texts to life for many of us today (the art of interpretation). I think also of the apparent lack of " psychology " and " psychiatry " as we know it in contemporary Chinese culture, as least in the diaspora population around here (Silicon Valley California). In a small, informal research project, I found the local phone book yellow pages to list about 10% (about the proportion of recent emigrant Chinese in this area) Chinese names under doctors and dentists, but next to none (and those obviously ABCs (American-Born-Chinese)) under the headings psychologists and psychiatrists. Something about that mysterious thing called " saving face " . And some Chinese-owned/run TCM schools in this area used to teach the State mandated course on practice psychology (meaning issues such as patient-doctor relationship, transference, etc.) simply as courses in neurological patient patterns. (That may have changed since my contact.) Mon, 11 Jun 2007 14:37:24 +0100, " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: >>Do you know Greg if there are any 5E practitioners in China? and, Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:43:02 0700, " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe wrote: >>However, we can safely say that there are no Worsley-style acupuncturists in China, although there are five phase systems practiced in Japan and Korea. Note, some of the interesting aspects of this discussion approach what Volker Scheid would call (in his book " …Plurality and Synthesis " , and the article on " Signification " ) " descriptive " (just what are people doing) methodology, and trying steer away from the " normative " (categorization) biases. A question for y'all (Greg, Attilio, Z'ev,…): We all know of contemporary schools of thought that emphasize morphologies or type-casting of individuals/patients. Such as 5E he/she's a wood type, mixed with metal, etc. Or some Korean " constitutional " schools he/she's taiyang/shaoyang/taiyin/shaoyin, etc. Seems a clear modern tendency, as also in Jungian intellect/intuition/sensary/emotional, or, a favorite around here (Silicon Valley), the " enneagram " system. Not to mention recent curiosities like blood-type morphology and even further out. Clearly the Han classics abound in morphological patterning (4-flavor yin/yang (as in the Korean cited above), 6-flavor yin/yang (ShangHanLung et al), 5E, and others. But (I can't seem to recall any) are there passages in the neijing, nanjing, SHL, etc. which identify patients / people as wood/fire, etc, or as taiyang/shaoyang/etc.? I.e. as personalizing constitutional types? Rather than, as is my rough sense, using these categorizations mostly for conditions/patterns, or climatic, seasonal, zangfu, colors, tastes, etc. dimensions? -- Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release 6/12/2007 6:39 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Some people use discussion as a " weapon " (sometimes unconsciously) and some use it as a tool to enlighten or to improve situations. It is a false choice to posit that we either discuss or we do not discuss. The question is how to discuss sensitive issues in a productive and harmonizing manner. Duncan Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > I think the heated debates just show how much of an issue it is with > practitioners. Discussing it is better than not, in my opinion. > > I generally feel it stems from 5E practitioners claiming their system is the > real traditional form of acupuncture. TCM acupuncturists generally don't say > such things. I've heard some older practitioners say that for many 5E > practitioners it's almost a religion, you're either with them or against > them. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > lizzzrd > 12 June 2007 18:56 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Five Element Acupuncture > > > > Duncan, > Thank you for your e-mail and for your wonderful suggestions on > communicating with each other. They are wise and useful, and I'm glad you > proposed them. I have sometimes been shocked at the comments folks have made > to each other on this list. Although I belong to several e-mail lists, this > is the only one where sharp remarks are sometimes made to others. I find > myself wondering why that would happen on a list where we're all interested > in healing. > Someone mentioned today that the treatment we give our patients starts the > minute we greet them. I agree totally. I also think the way we treat others > on this list, and indeed in every facet of our lives, isn't separate from > what we have to offer our patients. In that spirit, I hope that my comments > here have been gentle enough not to offend anyone. > Peace, Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Chris, See below for my comments: On Jun 12, 2007, at 11:55 PM, wrote: > > > 1) Clearly, as many have noted, many core aspects > of TCM and 5E perspectives have been there across > the span of CM (ca. 2200 years). Albeit, e.g. > 8-principles dates much later, and tongue > diagnosis, as we know it, is actually some 200 > years old, etc.. And earliest 5E pattern > associations are much more variegated than the modern. > > While eight principles are a much later derivation, the roots for > this go back much further. We can just say, five phases and yin/ > yang if you like. . .hot/cold, vacuity/repletion, interior/exterior > were always there. > > 2) There have been dichotomies between " schools " > of thought from earliest times (Shang vs Xia, > Kungzi vs Laozi), as well as those among the > modern, Western flavors of CM interpretation. > From what I've gathered, Li YuanDong > (piweipai/earth school) and ZhangZiHe > (gongxiapai/school attack and purge) at times > " bashed " each other (or at least their followers > did). E.g. is chaihu (Bupleurum) g-d's gift to > liver treatment, or does it just " ravage the yin " ? > Or, is harmonization method as noble/important or > a cop-out? And there's that interesting article > in E. Hsu's " Innovation in " on > Chinese Southerners juxtaposing themselves and > their medicine from the Northerners. > There is a big difference in the present '5E' and '8P' discussion from the classical debates of the Jin/Yuan physicians. All of the above were based on careful scholarship of the classical texts such as Su Wen, Ling Shu, and Shang Han Lun, and a immersion in the language and culture of Chinese civilization. Much of the present debate has taken place, especially in its early stages, without access to medical Chinese language and source texts. > > > > >> I wanted to add that the dichotomy of > mind-spirit is so /not present/ in Asia, that > some modern western scholars even discuss how > Asians " tend to somatise " their psychological disorders. > > The meaning and practical nuances of " emotion " or > " spirit " are, as far as I can discern, heavily > culture-bound. Many of my teachers have mentioned > Chinese " somatization " of symptoms, from Ted > Kaptchuk to Jeffery Yuen, and many in between. > Jeffery often quotes the Han texts supporting his > interpretations of mood/emotion/temperament (of > wei/ying/yuan energetic layers), taking the > largely somatic (at least in most modern > translations) symptom lists in the classics and > interpreting how those symptoms might " feel " to > our modern sensibilities. Quite vivid and > convincing; at least brings the old texts to life > for many of us today (the art of interpretation). > > > I heartily agree on all points. But this hardly makes a case for > saying that we can 'psychologize' Chinese medicine and then say > that it is authentic Chinese medicine! We need to be clear about > which are our own interpretations, and what qualities are already > there. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Just one question on formatting. Mark, I notice with 's new sidebars, that it is very difficult to edit e-mails properly to insert comments, so while I formatted Chris' original e-mail in blue, and indented my own comments, it is impossible to tell which is which when I send the e-mail. Is there any way to fix this? Thanks, On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:16 PM, wrote: > Chris, > See below for my comments: > > On Jun 12, 2007, at 11:55 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > 1) Clearly, as many have noted, many core aspects > > of TCM and 5E perspectives have been there across > > the span of CM (ca. 2200 years). Albeit, e.g. > > 8-principles dates much later, and tongue > > diagnosis, as we know it, is actually some 200 > > years old, etc.. And earliest 5E pattern > > associations are much more variegated than the modern. > > > > > While eight principles are a much later derivation, the roots for > > this go back much further. We can just say, five phases and yin/ > > yang if you like. . .hot/cold, vacuity/repletion, interior/exterior > > were always there. > > > > 2) There have been dichotomies between " schools " > > of thought from earliest times (Shang vs Xia, > > Kungzi vs Laozi), as well as those among the > > modern, Western flavors of CM interpretation. > > From what I've gathered, Li YuanDong > > (piweipai/earth school) and ZhangZiHe > > (gongxiapai/school attack and purge) at times > > " bashed " each other (or at least their followers > > did). E.g. is chaihu (Bupleurum) g-d's gift to > > liver treatment, or does it just " ravage the yin " ? > > Or, is harmonization method as noble/important or > > a cop-out? And there's that interesting article > > in E. Hsu's " Innovation in " on > > Chinese Southerners juxtaposing themselves and > > their medicine from the Northerners. > > > > There is a big difference in the present '5E' and '8P' discussion > from the classical debates of the Jin/Yuan physicians. All of the > above were based on careful scholarship of the classical texts such > as Su Wen, Ling Shu, and Shang Han Lun, and a immersion in the > language and culture of Chinese civilization. Much of the present > debate has taken place, especially in its early stages, without > access to medical Chinese language and source texts. > > > > > > > > > >> I wanted to add that the dichotomy of > > mind-spirit is so /not present/ in Asia, that > > some modern western scholars even discuss how > > Asians " tend to somatise " their psychological disorders. > > > > The meaning and practical nuances of " emotion " or > > " spirit " are, as far as I can discern, heavily > > culture-bound. Many of my teachers have mentioned > > Chinese " somatization " of symptoms, from Ted > > Kaptchuk to Jeffery Yuen, and many in between. > > Jeffery often quotes the Han texts supporting his > > interpretations of mood/emotion/temperament (of > > wei/ying/yuan energetic layers), taking the > > largely somatic (at least in most modern > > translations) symptom lists in the classics and > > interpreting how those symptoms might " feel " to > > our modern sensibilities. Quite vivid and > > convincing; at least brings the old texts to life > > for many of us today (the art of interpretation). > > > > > > > I heartily agree on all points. But this hardly makes a case for > > saying that we can 'psychologize' Chinese medicine and then say > > that it is authentic Chinese medicine! We need to be clear about > > which are our own interpretations, and what qualities are already > > there. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hi Trish, I don't know if an online course will get you through the boards or not as I have no experience with them. Greg Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac. PR China, 310002 Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou Si Tiao Xiang 23, #602 mobile: 86-571-8171-2217 http://www.myspace.com/doclivy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 From my research, they will not. It will involve herbal training from an accredited school. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Greg Livingston " <drlivingston > Hi Trish, > > I don't know if an online course will get you through the boards or not as I > have no experience with them. > > Greg > > > > Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac. > PR China, 310002 > Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou > Si Tiao Xiang 23, #602 > mobile: 86-571-8171-2217 > http://www.myspace.com/doclivy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Just curious as to why I still hear people looking for a minimum training (herbs or acupuncture) as opposed to an interest in being properly educated and professional. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : anne.crowley: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:04:12 +0000Re: TCM - Re: Five Element Acupuncture From my research, they will not. It will involve herbal training from an accredited school. Anne-------------- Original message ---------------------- " Greg Livingston " <drlivingston> Hi Trish,> > I don't know if an online course will get you through the boards or not as I> have no experience with them.> > Greg> > > > Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac.> PR China, 310002> Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou> Si Tiao Xiang 23, #602> mobile: 86-571-8171-2217> http://www.myspace.com/doclivy> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Because, Mike, I believe there is an idea that if you pound someone with a book for enough hours, days, weeks, months and years, that achieves something. If I understood you right. Hugo mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 8:54:55 AM RE: Re: Five Element Acupuncture Just curious as to why I still hear people looking for a minimum training (herbs or acupuncture) as opposed to an interest in being properly educated and professional. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac _________ Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2007 Report Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hugo, Not sure what you are meaning. My input was about a concern for undercutting of the educational process and how it impacts us professionally. We have many who think that our schools are not worth it and so study with someone, informally. This is similar to what is happening with acupuncture also as other professions want to shorten training and remove supervised clinical training. All of a sudden, we are back to where we were many years ago, a cottage industry with no real education. This is a big concern to me and hopefully all of us who have spent years learning and want to a profession and not just techniques. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : subincor: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:39:39 +0000Re: Re: Five Element Acupuncture Because, Mike, I believe there is an idea that if you pound someone with a book for enough hours, days, weeks, months and years, that achieves something. If I understood you right.Hugomike Bowser <naturaldoc1: Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 8:54:55 AMRE: Re: Five Element AcupunctureJust curious as to why I still hear people looking for a minimum training (herbs or acupuncture)as opposed to an interest in being properly educated and professional. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac________ Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up foryour free account today http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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