Guest guest Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the emotional. This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in order to be CA-approved. Is 5E very different from TCM? Trish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Dear Trish, I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has survived 25 years of growth in the field. Five phase (or 'elements') theory and eight principle theory are simply two threads that run through the history of Chinese medicine. They are tools to be used by practitioners of Chinese medicine, and there is no exclusivity of one from another. Five phase is not any more 'spiritual' than TCM. . . after all, what are we saying here about 'spiritual'? Nor does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on 'symptomatic' treatment only. This was the dogma when I was in acupuncture school 28 years ago. . . I went to an 'eight principle' school, and they were at war with the local '5 element' school, each of which claimed to have the 'real' Chinese medicine. With the extensive literature and knowledge base that is now available, one can see the complexity of Chinese medicine and culture, and such divides are just artificial. While I have some critiques of modern TCM, it does fairly represent some aspects of classical Chinese medicine. And five phase theory is an integral part of Chinese medicine, along with six channels, four aspects, three burners, and many other approaches. It is time for the '5E' folks to get with the times and stop claiming to represent 'the real thing'. The Nan Jing has spawned many different approaches to acupuncture, including the 5E school, there is no basis for this argument. On Jun 9, 2007, at 6:48 PM, pippa258 wrote: > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on > the > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. > That it > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the > beginning > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > emotional. > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted > except > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > order to be CA-approved. > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > Trish > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 They are night and day (must say I am a TCM person). Important issues....my understanding is that 5e only teaches acupuncture...no herbs, diet, massage, cupping ect. the national board exam is based on TCM, my understanding is that 5e folks spend much of the last 6 months of school relearning stuff to pass the board exam. Worsley who brought 5e to the US wrote all the books, his students are the only other folks...kind of a closed system. But then I'm biased and have not ever been to a 5e school and we only get the basics of 5e in tcm school. Bob www.acuherbals.com pippa258 <pippa258 wrote: I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the emotional. This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in order to be CA-approved. Is 5E very different from TCM? Trish Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Hi Trish, I very much agree with Z'ev and find the split the 5 element school STILL makes between the physical and spiritual disheartening. Addressing the emotions and the spirit is inherent in any tradition that is able to assist in bringing organic balance to a dynamic gone awry. It is so integral to Chinese medicine that it does not need to be separated out as an emphasis as is done in the 5E tradition. I am, like Z'ev amazed that this tendency of the 5E tradition to split the emotions and spirit off from the body persists. An ability to use the messages of the body to come to a diagnosis does not mean that the emotions or spirit are not taken in as well - as causes of illness or as effects of physical imbalance. Certainly, an ability to hear the messages of physical and emotional signs and symptoms as we do in Classical Chinese medicine and to use these messages to guide treatment has helped many patients with psychological disorders as well as helping many patients feel more " right " within and as themselves. A practitioner does not have to use emotional and spiritual language at every turn in order for the medicine to have the depth to work on those levels. I would warn against being seduced by spiritual language as being the hallmark of a spiritual medicine. I am certain that the graduate you spoke to was simply giving you the 5E party line that she/he had learned in school and really does not begin to understand anything about the depth and breathe of Chinese medicine. If that is still the party line in these 5E schools, how ignorant and closed they are! I hope it is not still true across the board. I would suggest not just talking to recent graduates who notoriously, in any tradition, have a bit of the born-again perspective and have not been tempered by real life practice. I know many 5E practitioners in the area I live in who have been very disappointed in their ability to integrate body, emotions and spirit. These practitioners have radically moved their practices to acupuncture styles that see the body as an expression of spirit and honor it's messages (as opposed to just looking for subtle and subjective messages of spirit only and diminishing the body's ability to speak). Many of these practitioners have complained that the diagnostic methods of 5E are so subjective as to create a real lack of confidence in diagnosis. It is common that a patient will be diagnosed by various 5 E practitioners and each with see a different CF. As Z'ev points out, the tradition we link to when we begin our journey in traditional or classical Chinese medicine is very rich and very diverse. One benefit of TCM is that, though in most schools, your initial education will seem rather dry it opens the door to a lifetime of study and deepening. When you really start learning and integrating the classical roots, the beauty and effectiveness is rather astounding. In addition you will be connected to a vast lineage of predecessors. I know from talking to my 5E colleagues here that the 5E tradition promotes more of an insular community - that you either practice the tradition as it is and belong to the community OR you jump ship. So, in spite of the possible limitations of your initial TCM education, you set sail into an ocean of teachers, texts, predecessors etc that will continue to inspire and teach you for your whole career. When I view 5E acupuncture as a thread of a vast tradition, rather than as claiming to be the best or deepest or most spirit oriented, I can find what it offers of value. My 5E collegues who have " jumped ship " have also been able to find more value in the 5E tradition when they have integrated it into the ocean of teachings we come from. I also know a 5E practitioner (there are a lot in my area) who has stayed rather more orthodox and loved it and been successful yet has not remained critical of Classical or traditional Chinese medicine. The misunderstanding your recent graduate expresses does not shine the best light on the 5E tradition. Good luck with your decisions! Sharon I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the emotional. This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in order to be CA-approved. Is 5E very different from TCM? Trish Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Hi all, I think we should remember that the term spiritual is a western term not commonly used in Asia. It is us westerns that tend to split and categorise everything into individual topics and concepts when in-actual fact its viewed more as a whole in Asia. Of course, TCM deals with emotional/spirit disharmonies just like 5E, its a misconception to think it doesn't. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sharon weizenbaum 11 June 2007 13:11 Chinese Medicine Re:Five Element Acupuncture Hi Trish, I very much agree with Z'ev and find the split the 5 element school STILL makes between the physical and spiritual disheartening. Addressing the emotions and the spirit is inherent in any tradition that is able to assist in bringing organic balance to a dynamic gone awry. It is so integral to Chinese medicine that it does not need to be separated out as an emphasis as is done in the 5E tradition. I am, like Z'ev amazed that this tendency of the 5E tradition to split the emotions and spirit off from the body persists. An ability to use the messages of the body to come to a diagnosis does not mean that the emotions or spirit are not taken in as well - as causes of illness or as effects of physical imbalance. Certainly, an ability to hear the messages of physical and emotional signs and symptoms as we do in Classical Chinese medicine and to use these messages to guide treatment has helped many patients with psychological disorders as well as helping many patients feel more " right " within and as themselves. A practitioner does not have to use emotional and spiritual language at every turn in order for the medicine to have the depth to work on those levels. I would warn against being seduced by spiritual language as being the hallmark of a spiritual medicine. I am certain that the graduate you spoke to was simply giving you the 5E party line that she/he had learned in school and really does not begin to understand anything about the depth and breathe of Chinese medicine. If that is still the party line in these 5E schools, how ignorant and closed they are! I hope it is not still true across the board. I would suggest not just talking to recent graduates who notoriously, in any tradition, have a bit of the born-again perspective and have not been tempered by real life practice. I know many 5E practitioners in the area I live in who have been very disappointed in their ability to integrate body, emotions and spirit. These practitioners have radically moved their practices to acupuncture styles that see the body as an expression of spirit and honor it's messages (as opposed to just looking for subtle and subjective messages of spirit only and diminishing the body's ability to speak). Many of these practitioners have complained that the diagnostic methods of 5E are so subjective as to create a real lack of confidence in diagnosis. It is common that a patient will be diagnosed by various 5 E practitioners and each with see a different CF. As Z'ev points out, the tradition we link to when we begin our journey in traditional or classical Chinese medicine is very rich and very diverse. One benefit of TCM is that, though in most schools, your initial education will seem rather dry it opens the door to a lifetime of study and deepening. When you really start learning and integrating the classical roots, the beauty and effectiveness is rather astounding. In addition you will be connected to a vast lineage of predecessors. I know from talking to my 5E colleagues here that the 5E tradition promotes more of an insular community - that you either practice the tradition as it is and belong to the community OR you jump ship. So, in spite of the possible limitations of your initial TCM education, you set sail into an ocean of teachers, texts, predecessors etc that will continue to inspire and teach you for your whole career. When I view 5E acupuncture as a thread of a vast tradition, rather than as claiming to be the best or deepest or most spirit oriented, I can find what it offers of value. My 5E collegues who have " jumped ship " have also been able to find more value in the 5E tradition when they have integrated it into the ocean of teachings we come from. I also know a 5E practitioner (there are a lot in my area) who has stayed rather more orthodox and loved it and been successful yet has not remained critical of Classical or traditional Chinese medicine. The misunderstanding your recent graduate expresses does not shine the best light on the 5E tradition. Good luck with your decisions! Sharon I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on the 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. That it was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the beginning of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the emotional. This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted except they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in order to be CA-approved. Is 5E very different from TCM? Trish Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com> www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Hi Z'ev, Thanks for tackling this one so nicely. I've also run into some 5E people (not all, so please don't take offense all you 5E folks) who claim 5E is the original, pure Chinese medicine. I've been studying/practicing for 13 years, over 5 of those years spent in China surrounded by so-called " TCM " , and for people to claim that CM in mainland China has been entirely destroyed/altered by the communists is ridiculous. Of course there are problems with CM here, but no one is preventing people from studying the classics or from practicing however they like. In fact, quite the contrary- arguably, the vast majority of the top classics scholars in the world are in the PRC, and while there are plenty of people practicing not very traditional CM (integrating western medicine, etc), there are plenty of highly dedicated and skilled doctors practicing in more traditional manners. In classes here I've studied the Si Da Jing Dian ( " 4 major classics " ) here (Neijing,Nanjing, Shanghan/Jin Gui, Wen Bing), as well as Tang/Song/Jin-Yuan/Ming/Qing scholars (Ge Jia Xue Shuo classes, as well as more in-depth classes on individual scholars such as Ye Tian Shi, Zhang Yuan Su, Zhang Zi He, Wang Shu Gao, Qin Bo Wei, etc.). I doubt they're teaching much of that at 5E schools in the West, or at many of the other schools for that matter. In clinic, never met a doc here that couldn't interpret lab results, MRI's, etc, but then in the next breath they might be quoting Neijing, Shanghan, Jin Gui, etc, ask about patients' emotional life, dreams, etc., then make razor sharp Bian Zheng and construct formulas based on one or more of the hundreds of classical prescriptions they have memorized to perfection. Like you said, this argument is unfounded, not to mention insulting and offensive to the many great doctors in PRC. Best wishes, Greg Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac. PR China, 310002 Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou 419 Hefang Jie North American International Hospital mobile: 86-571-8171-2217 http://www.myspace.com/doclivy Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Dear Trish, > I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has > survived 25 years of growth in the field. Five phase (or 'elements') > theory and eight principle theory are simply two threads that run > through the history of Chinese medicine. They are tools to be used > by practitioners of Chinese medicine, and there is no exclusivity of > one from another. Five phase is not any more 'spiritual' than > TCM. . . after all, what are we saying here about 'spiritual'? Nor > does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on > 'symptomatic' treatment only. > > This was the dogma when I was in acupuncture school 28 years > ago. . . I went to an 'eight principle' school, and they were at war > with the local '5 element' school, each of which claimed to have the > 'real' Chinese medicine. With the extensive literature and knowledge > base that is now available, one can see the complexity of Chinese > medicine and culture, and such divides are just artificial. While I > have some critiques of modern TCM, it does fairly represent some > aspects of classical Chinese medicine. And five phase theory is an > integral part of Chinese medicine, along with six channels, four > aspects, three burners, and many other approaches. > > It is time for the '5E' folks to get with the times and stop > claiming to represent 'the real thing'. The Nan Jing has spawned > many different approaches to acupuncture, including the 5E school, > there is no basis for this argument. > > > On Jun 9, 2007, at 6:48 PM, pippa258 wrote: > > > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on > > the > > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. > > That it > > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the > > beginning > > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > > emotional. > > > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted > > except > > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > > order to be CA-approved. > > > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > > > Trish > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Greg, Your experience of doctors in China is the exact same as I've seen whilst I was there. Do you know Greg if there are any 5E practitioners in China? Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Greg A. Livingston 11 June 2007 14:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Five Element Acupuncture Hi Z'ev, Thanks for tackling this one so nicely. I've also run into some 5E people (not all, so please don't take offense all you 5E folks) who claim 5E is the original, pure Chinese medicine. I've been studying/practicing for 13 years, over 5 of those years spent in China surrounded by so-called " TCM " , and for people to claim that CM in mainland China has been entirely destroyed/altered by the communists is ridiculous. Of course there are problems with CM here, but no one is preventing people from studying the classics or from practicing however they like. In fact, quite the contrary- arguably, the vast majority of the top classics scholars in the world are in the PRC, and while there are plenty of people practicing not very traditional CM (integrating western medicine, etc), there are plenty of highly dedicated and skilled doctors practicing in more traditional manners. In classes here I've studied the Si Da Jing Dian ( " 4 major classics " ) here (Neijing,Nanjing, Shanghan/Jin Gui, Wen Bing), as well as Tang/Song/Jin-Yuan/Ming/Qing scholars (Ge Jia Xue Shuo classes, as well as more in-depth classes on individual scholars such as Ye Tian Shi, Zhang Yuan Su, Zhang Zi He, Wang Shu Gao, Qin Bo Wei, etc.). I doubt they're teaching much of that at 5E schools in the West, or at many of the other schools for that matter. In clinic, never met a doc here that couldn't interpret lab results, MRI's, etc, but then in the next breath they might be quoting Neijing, Shanghan, Jin Gui, etc, ask about patients' emotional life, dreams, etc., then make razor sharp Bian Zheng and construct formulas based on one or more of the hundreds of classical prescriptions they have memorized to perfection. Like you said, this argument is unfounded, not to mention insulting and offensive to the many great doctors in PRC. Best wishes, Greg Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac. PR China, 310002 Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou 419 Hefang Jie North American International Hospital mobile: 86-571-8171-2217 http://www.myspace. <http://www.myspace.com/doclivy> com/doclivy Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Dear Trish, > I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has > survived 25 years of growth in the field. Five phase (or 'elements') > theory and eight principle theory are simply two threads that run > through the history of Chinese medicine. They are tools to be used > by practitioners of Chinese medicine, and there is no exclusivity of > one from another. Five phase is not any more 'spiritual' than > TCM. . . after all, what are we saying here about 'spiritual'? Nor > does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on > 'symptomatic' treatment only. > > This was the dogma when I was in acupuncture school 28 years > ago. . . I went to an 'eight principle' school, and they were at war > with the local '5 element' school, each of which claimed to have the > 'real' Chinese medicine. With the extensive literature and knowledge > base that is now available, one can see the complexity of Chinese > medicine and culture, and such divides are just artificial. While I > have some critiques of modern TCM, it does fairly represent some > aspects of classical Chinese medicine. And five phase theory is an > integral part of Chinese medicine, along with six channels, four > aspects, three burners, and many other approaches. > > It is time for the '5E' folks to get with the times and stop > claiming to represent 'the real thing'. The Nan Jing has spawned > many different approaches to acupuncture, including the 5E school, > there is no basis for this argument. > > > On Jun 9, 2007, at 6:48 PM, pippa258 wrote: > > > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on > > the > > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. > > That it > > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the > > beginning > > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > > emotional. > > > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted > > except > > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > > order to be CA-approved. > > > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > > > Trish > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Hi Trish, Have you looked at other schools in Florida? Florida College of Integrative Medicine, Dragon Rises etc. When I started school, I visited five schools on the West coast, got treatments from each ones' intern clinic and sat in classes. Everyone's different. Your soul may resonate more with the Worsley Tradition. Before committing though, you could read " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman, which recounts the story of TCM in Europe and America, especially the Worsley line: http://www.amazon.com/Footsteps-Yellow-Emperor-Traditional-Acupuncture/dp/083512\ 5807/ref=sr_1_1/102-7184106-1248154?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1181567937 & sr=8-1 Personally, I would want to get the most broad based knowledge of this medicine in order to get a solid base and keep learning for an entire lifetime. The " Spiritual " stuff is everywhere, especially when one connects integrally and authentically with their patient. Lonny Jarret's two books: www.spiritpathpress.com are well worth many readings, as well as taking classes from Thea Elijah, who teaches 5E herbology at the Five Element School you're looking at. You can always take classes with them outside of the curriculum and tuition of that school. Otherwise, Yin and Yang philosophy is the " original " Daoist " spiritual " tradition. What is more " spiritually directed " than the " I Jing " , who's architecture is based on Yin/ Yang, not 5E, which came later during the Warring States Period. When you read the Nei Jing and Nan Jing (the " bibles " of ), 5E has been thoroughly integrated in with Yin/Yang theory. So why not consult the I Jing and read the Nei Jing/ Nan Jing. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Look here for both books by Lonny: Nourishing Destiny: http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product/141/0/nourishing_destiny The Clinical Practice of : http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product/142/0/the_clinical_practice_of_c hinese_medicine Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko 11 June 2007 14:38 Chinese Medicine Re: Re:Five Element Acupuncture Hi Trish, Have you looked at other schools in Florida? Florida College of Integrative Medicine, Dragon Rises etc. When I started school, I visited five schools on the West coast, got treatments from each ones' intern clinic and sat in classes. Everyone's different. Your soul may resonate more with the Worsley Tradition. Before committing though, you could read " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman, which recounts the story of TCM in Europe and America, especially the Worsley line: http://www.amazon. <http://www.amazon.com/Footsteps-Yellow-Emperor-Traditional-Acupuncture/dp/0 835125807/ref=sr_1_1/102-7184106-1248154?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1181567937 & sr=8 -1> com/Footsteps-Yellow-Emperor-Traditional-Acupuncture/dp/0835125807/ref=sr_1_ 1/102-7184106-1248154?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1181567937 & sr=8-1 Personally, I would want to get the most broad based knowledge of this medicine in order to get a solid base and keep learning for an entire lifetime. The " Spiritual " stuff is everywhere, especially when one connects integrally and authentically with their patient. Lonny Jarret's two books: www.spiritpathpress.com are well worth many readings, as well as taking classes from Thea Elijah, who teaches 5E herbology at the Five Element School you're looking at. You can always take classes with them outside of the curriculum and tuition of that school. Otherwise, Yin and Yang philosophy is the " original " Daoist " spiritual " tradition. What is more " spiritually directed " than the " I Jing " , who's architecture is based on Yin/ Yang, not 5E, which came later during the Warring States Period. When you read the Nei Jing and Nan Jing (the " bibles " of ), 5E has been thoroughly integrated in with Yin/Yang theory. So why not consult the I Jing and read the Nei Jing/ Nan Jing. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Hi Attilio, I've never met or heard of anyone who classified themselves as a strictly 5E practitioner in China. In fact, in the classical Chinese literature, I've never heard of or seen that either. Obviously, I am not the best-read person in China, but not too long ago this subject came up with a professor of mine who is extremely well read, and he said he's never come across this notion either. I'm not suggesting it doesn't or didn't ever exist, but it appears not to be a well-known tradition here. That doesn't mean docs in China didn't use 5E ideas in treatment- far from it. People did and do use 5E all the time, and as 5E in the West is primarily concerned with acupuncture, 5E acupuncture in China is also a popular tradition. But I've never met anyone who was solely concerned with or trained in 5E acupuncture, and thus ignorant of other concepts. I'd say any really good acupuncturist in China (and I'm not the best judge as my focus is herbology) is capable of treating according to a wide range of models, including but definitely not limited to 5E. So, as others have pointed out, 5E is an integral part of CM historically and classically. People in China have and continue to use 5E just like they use Ba Gang, Liu Jing, Wei Qi Ying Xue, Jing Luo, etc. While I'm no expert, what I gather is that the modern 5E phenomenon in the West is a transmission from Worsley, but I have no idea where he received this. I recently spoke with one of his early students, who is now a very famous and respected practitioner in the West but who I shall not name, and he said that Worsley was very reluctant to reveal his sources, and this person felt that Worsley may have been guilty of a lot of MSU (making stuff up). Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but given that, what is know as 5E in the west may or may not exist exactly as such here in China or elsewhere in Asia. Regardless of all this and getting back to the original post about schools. Trish, I say attend whatever school looks good to you. If you're smart you'll realize when you're done that you don't know much, and you'll continue to study for the rest of your life. This latter part, if you work and study hard, will be your " real " education. So, while important, don't obsess too much about the 3 or 4 years in school. Best wishes, Greg Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Greg, > > Your experience of doctors in China is the exact same as I've seen whilst I > was there. > > Do you know Greg if there are any 5E practitioners in China? > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only > for the addressee. If you have received this message in error you must not > disseminate, copy or take action on it; please notify sender. Although this > e-mail and any attachments are believed to be virus free, e-mail > communications are not 100% secure and the sender makes no warranty that > this message is secure or virus free. Nothing in this transmission shall or > shall be deemed to constitute an offer or acceptance of an offer or > otherwise have the effect of forming a contract by electronic communication. > Your name and address may be stored to facilitate communications. The sender > is registered in England. Registered office: PO Box 3521, Wokingham, > Berkshire, RG40 9DX, UK. > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Greg A. > Livingston > 11 June 2007 14:31 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Five Element Acupuncture > > > > Hi Z'ev, > > Thanks for tackling this one so nicely. I've also run into some 5E > people (not all, so please don't take offense all you 5E folks) who > claim 5E is the original, pure Chinese medicine. I've been > studying/practicing for 13 years, over 5 of those years spent in China > surrounded by so-called " TCM " , and for people to claim that CM in > mainland China has been entirely destroyed/altered by the communists > is ridiculous. Of course there are problems with CM here, but no one > is preventing people from studying the classics or from practicing > however they like. In fact, quite the contrary- arguably, the vast > majority of the top classics scholars in the world are in the PRC, and > while there are plenty of people practicing not very traditional CM > (integrating western medicine, etc), there are plenty of highly > dedicated and skilled doctors practicing in more traditional manners. > In classes here I've studied the Si Da Jing Dian ( " 4 major classics " ) > here (Neijing,Nanjing, Shanghan/Jin Gui, Wen Bing), as well as > Tang/Song/Jin-Yuan/Ming/Qing scholars (Ge Jia Xue Shuo classes, as > well as more in-depth classes on individual scholars such as Ye Tian > Shi, Zhang Yuan Su, Zhang Zi He, Wang Shu Gao, Qin Bo Wei, etc.). I > doubt they're teaching much of that at 5E schools in the West, or at > many of the other schools for that matter. In clinic, never met a doc > here that > couldn't interpret lab results, MRI's, etc, but then in the next > breath they might be quoting Neijing, Shanghan, Jin Gui, etc, ask > about patients' emotional life, dreams, etc., then make razor sharp > Bian Zheng and construct formulas based on one or more of the hundreds > of classical prescriptions they have memorized to perfection. Like you > said, this argument is > unfounded, not to mention insulting and offensive to the many great > doctors in PRC. > > Best wishes, > > Greg > > Greg A. Livingston, PhD(candidate), L.Ac. > PR China, 310002 > Zhejiang Province, Hangzhou > 419 Hefang Jie > North American International Hospital > mobile: 86-571-8171-2217 > http://www.myspace. <http://www.myspace.com/doclivy> com/doclivy > > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> > Chinese_Medicine , " " > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > Dear Trish, > > I find it hard to believe that this nonsensical dogma has > > survived 25 years of growth in the field. Five phase (or 'elements') > > theory and eight principle theory are simply two threads that run > > through the history of Chinese medicine. They are tools to be used > > by practitioners of Chinese medicine, and there is no exclusivity of > > one from another. Five phase is not any more 'spiritual' than > > TCM. . . after all, what are we saying here about 'spiritual'? Nor > > does TCM separate emotional symptoms from physical and rely on > > 'symptomatic' treatment only. > > > > This was the dogma when I was in acupuncture school 28 years > > ago. . . I went to an 'eight principle' school, and they were at war > > with the local '5 element' school, each of which claimed to have the > > 'real' Chinese medicine. With the extensive literature and knowledge > > base that is now available, one can see the complexity of Chinese > > medicine and culture, and such divides are just artificial. While I > > have some critiques of modern TCM, it does fairly represent some > > aspects of classical Chinese medicine. And five phase theory is an > > integral part of Chinese medicine, along with six channels, four > > aspects, three burners, and many other approaches. > > > > It is time for the '5E' folks to get with the times and stop > > claiming to represent 'the real thing'. The Nan Jing has spawned > > many different approaches to acupuncture, including the 5E school, > > there is no basis for this argument. > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2007, at 6:48 PM, pippa258 wrote: > > > > > I am looking at a school in Florida (Academy for Five Element > > > Acupuncture) and was talking with a graduate yesterday about 5E. The > > > graduate said it is very different from TCM in that TCM is based on > > > the > > > 8 principles and is symptom-based to treat physical complaints. > > > That it > > > was created to treat many people quickly in a standardized manner and > > > omits spirituality. In contrast, 5E is based on the 5 elements, does > > > not have protocols (except for some clearing protocols at the > > > beginning > > > of treatment), and does not separate physical symptoms from the > > > emotional. > > > > > > This school is seeking CA-approval and it would have been granted > > > except > > > they are moving to another city this summer. Once settled, the site > > > visits will take place. So it seems that some TCM must be taught in > > > order to be CA-approved. > > > > > > Is 5E very different from TCM? > > > > > > Trish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 One source was Wu Wei-ping, who definitely practiced a five phase acupuncture style in Taiwan in the 50's and 60's. His book is exclusively five phase acupuncture. Dr. Eric Tao practiced a similar method in Denver, Colorado some 20-30 years ago as well. Other influences were definitely homeopathy (we discussed the " Law of Cure " several months back on this list), and a lot of personal interpretations by Dr. Worsley. Lonny Jarrett's books also give some other sources, such as Li Dong- yuan for 'aggressive energy' (xie qi). However, we can safely say that there are no Worsley-style acupuncturists in China, although there are five phase systems practiced in Japan and Korea. On Jun 11, 2007, at 4:23 PM, Greg A. Livingston wrote: > While I'm no expert, what I gather is that the modern 5E phenomenon in > the West is a transmission from Worsley, but I have no idea where he > received this. I recently spoke with one of his early students, who is > now a very famous and respected practitioner in the West but who I > shall not name, and he said that Worsley was very reluctant to reveal > his sources, and this person felt that Worsley may have been guilty of > a lot of MSU (making stuff up). Whether this is true or not, I don't > know, but given that, what is know as 5E in the west may or may not > exist exactly as such here in China or elsewhere in Asia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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