Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hello, I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week for 10 weeks? Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. Steve Smith Acupuncturist in Maryland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 I've never heard the " once a day for 10 days " routine. That seems excessive to me mostly because not only would it be financially prohibitive for most people, I think insurance companies would balk at the idea as well. That may be the case, though, for countries that have socialized medicine where cost is not an issue for the individual. Anyone care to speak on that? I mostly treat musculoskeletal pain & injury, so for me, I generally do 3-4 treatments in 10-12 days (roughly twice a week for 2 weeks) and weekly from there. I ask patients to try 3 treatments to determine if they feel it is helping or not, and as long as they continue to improve with each treatment, they stay motivated to get treatment. Statistically, I find most people experience about 30-80% relief within those 3 treatments. I rarely go beyond 6 to 8 weeks. It seems for the conditions I treat, 8-10 treatments is the maximum required. I find that if I don't " get a jump " on the condition (thus the twice a week treatment for 2 weeks), the benefits of the first treatment are too diminished to build upon for a treatment given a whole week later. The only time I see people on 2 consecutive days is if they are very acute and in extreme pain. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Steve Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:38 AM Chinese Medicine length and duration of treatment Hello, I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week for 10 weeks? Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. Steve Smith Acupuncturist in Maryland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 I have read that, in China, treatments are often given every day as described in Steve's e-mail. But you're right, Barbara, that it would financially prohibitive. Makes me think this is where community acupuncture, where prices are on a sliding scale, could play a part. I'm taking the June 1-3 community acupuncture class in NYC, given by Acupuncturists without Borders. Anyone else from this list going? Peace, Liz - Barbara Beale Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:33 AM RE: length and duration of treatment I've never heard the " once a day for 10 days " routine. That seems excessive to me mostly because not only would it be financially prohibitive for most people, I think insurance companies would balk at the idea as well. That may be the case, though, for countries that have socialized medicine where cost is not an issue for the individual. Anyone care to speak on that? I mostly treat musculoskeletal pain & injury, so for me, I generally do 3-4 treatments in 10-12 days (roughly twice a week for 2 weeks) and weekly from there. I ask patients to try 3 treatments to determine if they feel it is helping or not, and as long as they continue to improve with each treatment, they stay motivated to get treatment. Statistically, I find most people experience about 30-80% relief within those 3 treatments. I rarely go beyond 6 to 8 weeks. It seems for the conditions I treat, 8-10 treatments is the maximum required. I find that if I don't " get a jump " on the condition (thus the twice a week treatment for 2 weeks), the benefits of the first treatment are too diminished to build upon for a treatment given a whole week later. The only time I see people on 2 consecutive days is if they are very acute and in extreme pain. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Steve Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:38 AM Chinese Medicine length and duration of treatment Hello, I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week for 10 weeks? Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. Steve Smith Acupuncturist in Maryland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 It's quite normal for treatments to occur everyday in China. Treatments aren't that expensive (depending on the quality of the doctor), so people can afford it. Also, treatments are quick and there are many people to a room, so it's cost effective. In the west however, people like their space, privacy and time. Kind regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC Editor Times +44 (0) 1189 612512 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Liz 16 May 2007 16:14 Chinese Medicine Re: length and duration of treatment I have read that, in China, treatments are often given every day as described in Steve's e-mail. But you're right, Barbara, that it would financially prohibitive. Makes me think this is where community acupuncture, where prices are on a sliding scale, could play a part. I'm taking the June 1-3 community acupuncture class in NYC, given by Acupuncturists without Borders. Anyone else from this list going? Peace, Liz - Barbara Beale Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:33 AM RE: length and duration of treatment I've never heard the " once a day for 10 days " routine. That seems excessive to me mostly because not only would it be financially prohibitive for most people, I think insurance companies would balk at the idea as well. That may be the case, though, for countries that have socialized medicine where cost is not an issue for the individual. Anyone care to speak on that? I mostly treat musculoskeletal pain & injury, so for me, I generally do 3-4 treatments in 10-12 days (roughly twice a week for 2 weeks) and weekly from there. I ask patients to try 3 treatments to determine if they feel it is helping or not, and as long as they continue to improve with each treatment, they stay motivated to get treatment. Statistically, I find most people experience about 30-80% relief within those 3 treatments. I rarely go beyond 6 to 8 weeks. It seems for the conditions I treat, 8-10 treatments is the maximum required. I find that if I don't " get a jump " on the condition (thus the twice a week treatment for 2 weeks), the benefits of the first treatment are too diminished to build upon for a treatment given a whole week later. The only time I see people on 2 consecutive days is if they are very acute and in extreme pain. _____ Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Steve Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:38 AM Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine%40> Chinese_Medicine length and duration of treatment Hello, I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week for 10 weeks? Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. Steve Smith Acupuncturist in Maryland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 It's been several years since I have been in China and yes, they were giving treatments everyday. Sometimes they were 5 min. treatments with just needles and sometimes I saw 45 min. cupping with only 5 min. needles. After 10 days they usually re-evaluated and then gave another 10 day course of treatments. Some ins. co. here in US allow 3 times a week treatments for a prolonged amount of time which is nice. Elie Directory http://www.tcmdirectory.com Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto wrote: > > It's quite normal for treatments to occur everyday in China. > > Treatments aren't that expensive (depending on the quality of the doctor), > so people can afford it. > > Also, treatments are quick and there are many people to a room, so it's cost > effective. In the west however, people like their space, privacy and time. > > Kind regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > BSc (Hons) TCM MBAcC > Editor > Times > +44 (0) 1189 612512 > enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/forum/index.php > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Liz > 16 May 2007 16:14 > Chinese Medicine > Re: length and duration of treatment > > > > I have read that, in China, treatments are often given every day as > described in Steve's e-mail. > But you're right, Barbara, that it would financially prohibitive. > Makes me think this is where community acupuncture, where prices are on a > sliding scale, could play a part. > I'm taking the June 1-3 community acupuncture class in NYC, given by > Acupuncturists without Borders. > Anyone else from this list going? > Peace, Liz > > - > Barbara Beale > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine% 40> > Chinese_Medicine > Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:33 AM > RE: length and duration of treatment > > I've never heard the " once a day for 10 days " routine. That seems > excessive to me mostly because not only would it be financially prohibitive > for most people, I think insurance companies would balk at the idea as well. > That may be the case, though, for countries that have socialized medicine > where cost is not an issue for the individual. Anyone care to speak on > that? > > I mostly treat musculoskeletal pain & injury, so for me, I generally do 3-4 > treatments in 10-12 days (roughly twice a week for 2 weeks) and weekly from > there. I ask patients to try 3 treatments to determine if they feel it is > helping or not, and as long as they continue to improve with each treatment, > they stay motivated to get treatment. Statistically, I find most people > experience about 30-80% relief within those 3 treatments. I rarely go > beyond 6 to 8 weeks. It seems for the conditions I treat, 8-10 treatments > is the maximum required. I find that if I don't " get a jump " on the > condition (thus the twice a week treatment for 2 weeks), the benefits of the > first treatment are too diminished to build upon for a treatment given a > whole week later. > > The only time I see people on 2 consecutive days is if they are very acute > and in extreme pain. > > _____ > > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine% 40> > Chinese_Medicine > [Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine% 40> > Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Steve > Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:38 AM > Traditional_ <Chinese Medicine% 40> > Chinese_Medicine > length and duration of treatment > > Hello, > I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other > practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention > in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional > course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, > then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? > Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your > patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week > for 10 weeks? > > Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. > > Steve Smith > Acupuncturist in Maryland > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Elie, This doesn't mean that this is what we should be doing in the West, necessarily. This may be good for acute, musculoskeletal disorders, which is what tends to be treated in Chinese hospital acupuncture departments. But much of treatment in the West (and outside the hospital system in China) is for more chronic, internal disorders, or emotional/psychological disorders, among many other possibilities. I find that treating once a week or every other week is fine for the patients I see. Daily treatment would be overkill, and a sort of over-dosing the patient. In my opinion, the Japanese generally are more developed with acupuncture/moxabustion and hold it in higher regard, and the treatment methods are more subtle as a rule. On May 16, 2007, at 8:54 AM, TCMdirectory.com wrote: > It's been several years since I have been in China and yes, they > were giving treatments everyday. > > Sometimes they were 5 min. treatments with just needles and > sometimes I saw 45 min. cupping with only 5 min. needles. > > After 10 days they usually re-evaluated and then gave another 10 day > course of treatments. > > Some ins. co. here in US allow 3 times a week treatments for a > prolonged amount of time which is nice. > > Elie > Directory > http://www.tcmdirectory.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2007 Report Share Posted May 16, 2007 Hi Liz - I agree that the Community Acupuncture model closely resembles the clinics I practiced in in China: multiple treatments performed almost daily in a large, communal room. The majority of patients were treated in chairs but there were a few tables. Patient progress was, on the whole, very impressive and rapid. I recently attended a CA seminar in Portland and learned about the sliding scale/frequent treatment model they utilize. I believe, however, that the CA type seminar offered by AWB is significantly different. AWB is a humanitarian sevice organization dependent on donations and volunteers, whereas Portland's Working Class Acupuncture type of clinic with sliding scales, etc. is a sustainable business promoting a community business model that provides acupuncture to those who could not otherwise afford it. Although they both provide valuable services to the community, their core principles are quite different. Take care - Kim Blankenship Liz <lizzzrd wrote: I have read that, in China, treatments are often given every day as described in Steve's e-mail. But you're right, Barbara, that it would financially prohibitive. Makes me think this is where community acupuncture, where prices are on a sliding scale, could play a part. I'm taking the June 1-3 community acupuncture class in NYC, given by Acupuncturists without Borders. Anyone else from this list going? Peace, Liz - Barbara Beale Chinese Medicine Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:33 AM RE: length and duration of treatment I've never heard the " once a day for 10 days " routine. That seems excessive to me mostly because not only would it be financially prohibitive for most people, I think insurance companies would balk at the idea as well. That may be the case, though, for countries that have socialized medicine where cost is not an issue for the individual. Anyone care to speak on that? I mostly treat musculoskeletal pain & injury, so for me, I generally do 3-4 treatments in 10-12 days (roughly twice a week for 2 weeks) and weekly from there. I ask patients to try 3 treatments to determine if they feel it is helping or not, and as long as they continue to improve with each treatment, they stay motivated to get treatment. Statistically, I find most people experience about 30-80% relief within those 3 treatments. I rarely go beyond 6 to 8 weeks. It seems for the conditions I treat, 8-10 treatments is the maximum required. I find that if I don't " get a jump " on the condition (thus the twice a week treatment for 2 weeks), the benefits of the first treatment are too diminished to build upon for a treatment given a whole week later. The only time I see people on 2 consecutive days is if they are very acute and in extreme pain. _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Steve Wednesday, May 16, 2007 6:38 AM Chinese Medicine length and duration of treatment Hello, I would like some feedback as to the length and duration that other practitioners have treating their patients. If I was paying attention in school I thought my instructors said that in China a traditional course of treatment was everyday for 10 days, then a two day break, then another course of 10 days if needed. Is there any truth to this? Does anyone else practice in this manner? If so do you find your patients doing better than if you saw them for 1 session once a week for 10 weeks? Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your responses. Steve Smith Acupuncturist in Maryland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 There was a very good article online on this subject written a few years ago: " Restructuring American Acupuncture Practices, " by Subhuti Dharmananda. It approaches the subject from several of the perspectives mentioned on this thread (such as economic feasibility). www.itmonline.org/arts/restructure.htm Best, Miles Peterken ______________________________\ ____Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness./webhosting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Hello, Thank you for the reply. I'm wondering if anyone is billing insurance? I am really new to billing and it is an absolutely terrible experience. I like to think that I'm fairly bright. However, this filing insurance has me feeling quite dumb. I have started simple with Blue Cross/Blue Shield as the only company I file. Is anyone billing? If so what are you getting paid? How are you billing? Paper or Online? Thank you for your time Steve Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 That price seems excessive to me. I pay 2.50 per claim filed. I've only been stiffed on 2 treatments in the years I've used my particular service. That makes it about 2.5%-3.5% total. Boy, for 10%, I think I might just give up practicing and open a billing service!! _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of K Adams Thursday, May 17, 2007 5:32 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: length and duration of treatment Hi Steve - I just connected with a small business owner who does billing to insurance for small medical offices (like acupuncturists). She knows how it's done, and works for 10%, which seems reasonable to me (anyone else got any thoughts?). It means she has all the contacts, knows all the companies, does all the dancing with them. That's actually worth it to me, especially if it expands my business. The 10% is only payable on collections. She says if she doesn't collect, I don't owe anything on that claim - and adds 'I always collect'. This kind of business is a growing niche business. Some folks will do it for swaps - treatment for work. Karen Karen R. Adams Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BA(Hons), BS Four Directions Healing Arts 112 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413-863-8033 413-768-8333 Steve Smith wrote: > Hello, > Thank you for the reply. > I'm wondering if anyone is billing insurance? I am really new to > billing and it is an absolutely terrible experience. I like to think > that I'm fairly bright. However, this filing insurance has me feeling > quite dumb. I have started simple with Blue Cross/Blue Shield as the > only company I file. Is anyone billing? If so what are you getting > paid? How are you billing? Paper or Online? > > Thank you for your time > > Steve > > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at > Games. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Hi Steve - I just connected with a small business owner who does billing to insurance for small medical offices (like acupuncturists). She knows how it's done, and works for 10%, which seems reasonable to me (anyone else got any thoughts?). It means she has all the contacts, knows all the companies, does all the dancing with them. That's actually worth it to me, especially if it expands my business. The 10% is only payable on collections. She says if she doesn't collect, I don't owe anything on that claim - and adds 'I always collect'. This kind of business is a growing niche business. Some folks will do it for swaps - treatment for work. Karen Karen R. Adams Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BA(Hons), BS Four Directions Healing Arts 112 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413-863-8033 413-768-8333 Steve Smith wrote: > Hello, > Thank you for the reply. > I'm wondering if anyone is billing insurance? I am really new to > billing and it is an absolutely terrible experience. I like to think > that I'm fairly bright. However, this filing insurance has me feeling > quite dumb. I have started simple with Blue Cross/Blue Shield as the > only company I file. Is anyone billing? If so what are you getting > paid? How are you billing? Paper or Online? > > Thank you for your time > > Steve > > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at > Games. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Steve: If you are in MD, you can contact Judith Rozier on this. She does do billing wtih BC/BS of MD, finds it to run fairly smoothly, and does some consulting on this. You can email me privately if you need her contact info. Anne P.S. Don't know if you went to TAI. We generally do one tx a week - I like to do that for 3 months (more if patient is willing and it is still beneficial). If there is acute pain or deep mental depression, like to do 2 a week for 2 weeks, then go to one a week. As far a duration, for those that want to go to a very deep level of tx, they have been in my practice since I started seven years ago. I have personally been in treatment for over 13 years. I go about once a month, sometime 6 wks, since my practiitoner is in Columbia MD, one and half hrs from my house. I am in Southern Maryland -------------- Original message ---------------------- Steve Smith <radicalneuro > Hello, > Thank you for the reply. > I'm wondering if anyone is billing insurance? I am really new to billing and > it is an absolutely terrible experience. I like to think that I'm fairly bright. > However, this filing insurance has me feeling quite dumb. I have started simple > with Blue Cross/Blue Shield as the only company I file. Is anyone billing? If so > what are you getting paid? How are you billing? Paper or Online? > > Thank you for your time > > Steve > > > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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