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shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained decrease in BP from

the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture plus patent meds that could not

be explained by other concurrent changes such as diet and exercise. Not just

talking about myself, but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly

skilled px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective and I

was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from China took BP meds

as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict controlled evidence will ultimately

show that acupuncture is good for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a

wide range of minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like hepatitis or

lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of it instead of racing

headlong into their embrace of modern science and cutting edge therapies like

stem cells. Chinese med is a nice safe alternat

ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people. no miracle

cures hiding anywhere.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" " <

> Hi All,

>

> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

>

> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

>

> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric A.

> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M. Zusman

> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B., R.M.Z.),

> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.), Alexandria,

> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University, Winston-

> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large randomized

> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with untreated blood

> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design of the

> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly assigned to 3

> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture, standardized

> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks. During

> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly assigned to

> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture (systolic

> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the difference: -4.0

> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95% CI for

> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing participants by

> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use, obesity, or

> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any subgroups

> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed significantly from sham

> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than invasive

> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical trial o

> traditional Chinese medicine

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " <

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work (for

HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) – Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

 

 

 

IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

 

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize and

simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesn’t work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

 

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

 

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

 

 

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

 

 

Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

 

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s tools, not CM’s thinking!

 

 

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

 

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Hi All,

 

Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

 

I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

 

Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) © 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric A.

Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M. Zusman

From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

Watertown, Mass; Children´s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B., R.M.Z.),

Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.), Alexandria,

Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University, Winston-

Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large randomized

trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with untreated blood

pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design of the

trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly assigned to 3

treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture, standardized

acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks. During

the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly assigned to

active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture (systolic

BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the difference: -4.0

to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95% CI for

the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing participants by

age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use, obesity, or

primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any subgroups

for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed significantly from sham

acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than invasive

sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical trial o

traditional Chinese medicine

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Jason

Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you treated

successfully?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work

(for HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) – Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

 

IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize

and simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesn’t work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s tools, not CM’s thinking!

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

-

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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Todd

as i said in the past i have not seen essential hypertension treated

successfully when i was in China. Those cases that did improve did so

because of dietary changes based on WM. I also met a lady at bioessence that

did her PhD in TCM on hypertension. Her conclusion was that TCM is not

effective unless WM style life style changes are incorporated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

<

 

Friday, May 04, 2007 2:28 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained decrease in BP

from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture plus patent meds that

could not be explained by other concurrent changes such as diet and

exercise. Not just talking about myself, but also the patients seen by

dozens of others supposedly skilled px in school clinics. Even high does

herbs are not very effective and I was always dismayed to learn how many

senior herbalists from China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I

predict controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of minor

complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be the salvation

of the world. If you really could cure things like hepatitis or lupus with

TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of it instead of racing headlong

into their embrace of modern science and cutting edge therapies like stem

cells. Chinese med is a nice safe alternat

ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people. no

miracle cures hiding anywhere.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" " <

> Hi All,

>

> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

>

> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

>

> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric A.

> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M. Zusman

> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B., R.M.Z.),

> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

> Alexandria,

> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University, Winston-

> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large randomized

> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with untreated

> blood

> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design of the

> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly assigned to 3

> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture, standardized

> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks. During

> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly assigned

> to

> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture (systolic

> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

> difference: -4.0

> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95% CI for

> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing participants by

> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use, obesity,

> or

> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

> subgroups

> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed significantly from

> sham

> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than invasive

> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical trial o

> traditional Chinese medicine

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

" individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture, standardized

acupuncture at preselected points "

 

Looks like, yet another " sham vs sham " acupuncture study.

Nothing to worry about.

 

Kelvin

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP

in

> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-

109mm Hg).

>

> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

below:

>

> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) © 2006 American Heart Association,

Inc.

> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

Eric A.

> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

Zusman

> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> Watertown, Mass; Children´s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

R.M.Z.),

> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

Alexandria,

> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

Winston-

> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

randomized

> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the

Acupuncture

> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

untreated blood

> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

of the

> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly assigned

to 3

> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

standardized

> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

During

> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every

14

> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110

mm

> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

assigned to

> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

(systolic

> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

difference: -4.0

> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

CI for

> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

participants by

> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

obesity, or

> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

subgroups

> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed significantly

from sham

> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

invasive

> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

trial o

> traditional Chinese medicine

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

>>>...enrolled 192 participants with UNTREATED (my emphasis) blood

pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design of the

trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

traditional Chinese medicine. PARTICIPANTS WERE WEANED OFF

ANTIHYPERTENSIVES BEFORE ENROLLMENT (my emphasis)<<<

 

That is a glaring contradiction. Besides, I thought everyone with a

day or two of clinic time knew that needles alone could only be

expected to give a very temporary lowering in refractory cases. The

difference between an acupuncture technician and a skilled

practitioner of oriental-derived-medicine is that we have ALWAYS

addressed hypertension with breathing, exercise, diet, and dietary

modification including herbs.

 

Joe Reid, OMD

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Yes, I agree emphatically. While I understand studies trying to zero

in on one modality, the reality of treatment of conditions such as

hypertension essentially involves all of the tools of Chinese medicine.

 

 

On May 4, 2007, at 4:52 PM, jreidomd wrote:

 

> That is a glaring contradiction. Besides, I thought everyone with a

> day or two of clinic time knew that needles alone could only be

> expected to give a very temporary lowering in refractory cases. The

> difference between an acupuncture technician and a skilled

> practitioner of oriental-derived-medicine is that we have ALWAYS

> addressed hypertension with breathing, exercise, diet, and dietary

> modification including herbs.

>

> Joe Reid, OMD

 

 

 

 

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Well, look who performed this study! The white coat doctors!

 

WHITE COATS & BLOOD PRESSURE

The 'white coat effect' describes the false high reading that may

occur when a GP takes a patient's blood pressure. A study has now

confirmed this phenomenon and states " It is time to stop using high

blood pressure readings by general practitioners to make decisions

about treatment " . Instead blood pressure should be assessed by home

measurements by the patient or repeated measurements by a nurse. (BMJ

2002;325:254).

 

Well, we can't win 'em all.

 

But I prefer to tell of this study to prospects:

 

ACUPUNCTURE HELPS HEART PATIENTS

Research carried out at the University of California Los Angeles

School of Medicine has shown that acupuncture can dramatically reduce

the pressure on the heart in patients with severe heart

failure.....The researchers divided 14 critically ill chronic heart

failure patients referred for heart transplantation evaluation into

three groups. One group received acupuncture at traditional

acupuncture sites, the second received " non-acupoint " acupuncture in

which needles were placed at sites not traditionally believed to be

useful in acupuncture, and the third group had a " no-needle "

simulation of the treatment, in which a needle holder was tapped onto

the back of their neck, but no needle was inserted. Blood pressure,

heart rate and sympathetic nerve activity were measured in all the

patients following a four-minute mental stress test. There was a 25%

increase in sympathetic nerve activity after the mental stress tests

without active acupuncture, while with a single session of real

acupuncture, sympathetic nerve activation was significantly reduced

and was similar to what it had been before the patients underwent the

stress test (Middlekauf HR et.al., Proceedings of the American Heart

Association 2001 Scientific Sessions conference, Anaheim, 14/11/2001).

 

Elie

Directory

http://www.tcmdirectory.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm

Hg).

>

> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

>

> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) © 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

Eric A.

> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

Zusman

> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> Watertown, Mass; Children´s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B., R.M.Z.),

> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

Alexandria,

> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

Winston-

> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> EMacklin Case studies and small trials suggest that

> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large randomized

> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

untreated blood

> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design of

the

> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly assigned

to 3

> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

standardized

> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

During

> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

assigned to

> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

(systolic

> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

difference: -4.0

> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95% CI

for

> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

participants by

> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

obesity, or

> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

subgroups

> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed significantly

from sham

> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

invasive

> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

trial o

> traditional Chinese medicine

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

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Alon,

 

 

 

Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many must continue

taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom formulas, but I actually

have 2 patients that are completely managed with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made

granules). One of them needs only 6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3

scoops) in addition to her custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee –

which is completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my poor intake

I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI). They reported back a

couple months later and said that their BP had gone down dramatically (this was

a modified bulk san ren tang).

 

 

 

I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs steady for 6 months

and it has now been gone for years. I have a family history, so we will see with

time… It seems like in most people, with a little tweaking you can get things

under control. If the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction of meds

but these people usually have many other problems as well. What are other’s

experiences?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

 

 

Jason

Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you treated

successfully?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

@ <%40>

 

Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work (for

HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) – Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

 

IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize and

simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesn’t work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s tools, not CM’s thinking!

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with. I have not

treated to many BP pt but i have not seen much reduction in pt with pressures

about 150/100 i have seen changes in mild cases. In china i have followed some

100 cases with high BP and i cant say i saw one pt that had such BPs manage them

with herbs alone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:12 AM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

Alon,

 

Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many must continue

taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom formulas, but I actually

have 2 patients that are completely managed with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made

granules). One of them needs only 6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3

scoops) in addition to her custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee –

which is completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my poor intake

I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI). They reported back a

couple months later and said that their BP had gone down dramatically (this was

a modified bulk san ren tang).

 

I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs steady for 6

months and it has now been gone for years. I have a family history, so we will

see with time… It seems like in most people, with a little tweaking you can

get things under control. If the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction

of meds but these people usually have many other problems as well. What are

other’s experiences?

 

-

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Jason

Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you treated

successfully?

 

 

 

-

@ <%40>

 

Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work

(for HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) – Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

 

IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize

and simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesn’t work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s tools, not CM’s thinking!

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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Guest guest

There is another issue here and where I think the current attacks are being

based from biomedicine: the use of " sham acupuncture. " After looking at

dozens of papers that compare acupuncture to sham acupuncture, here is the

general scenario: let's get a valid acupuncture protocol with TCM

practitioner input which invariably includes big, popular points such as LI

4, St 36, Sp 6. Then for a control, we will use sham acupuncture. When you

read the methodology these " shams " are usually placed 1-2 cm from the actual

acupuncture points. Of course, in these big points a centimeter or two is

probably still on the actual point, not taking into account angle of

insertion or depth (which are rarely mentioned in the methods despite the

excellent STRICTA protocols). So we have a situation where the actual

acupuncture points are essentially the same as the sham points. So if the

study shows positive impact then the headline reads, as it did 6 months ago,

" Migraines helped by acupuncture, sham acupuncture equally helpful. " This

gives ammo to critics who simply say it obviously doesn't matter which point

is chosen and therefore the " system " doesn't work. Or in the case of this

paper, which doesn't have a non-treatment control, even though there was a

reduction of blood pressure (which may or may not be statistically valid),

the treatment was essentially the same as the control and therefore the

treatment is invalid.

 

 

 

As acupuncturists we have to be very careful of this new trend for research

to use " sham " acupuncture as a control. No matter the results, they are

interpreted to be against acupuncture. The best design is probably a

comparison of best practices where acupuncture is compared with the standard

biomedical practice and may the best intervention win. Of course this is

open to often heated debate.

 

 

 

**************************************************************************

 

Dr. Greg Sperber, BMBS, DAOM, MBA, L.Ac.

 

California Licensed Acupuncturist

 

Diplomate in Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM)

 

Greg

 

***************************************************************************

 

 

 

> Hi All,

 

>Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

 

>I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

 

>Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) C 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric A.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks Greg for the excellent points;

 

Acupuncture alone, Allopathic intervention alone and a comparison with a

protocol that includes both modalities simultaneously (complementary care)

is useful to understand the efficacies of all methodologies.

I agree that these " sham " studies are wasting time and money, because

acupuncture points have already been categorically and scientifically proven

to be effective. That was over 10 years ago. Researchers should be

spending resources in understanding the ways that traditional acupuncture

treatment formulas are to what extent useful in complementing allopathic

medicine, especially in syndromes where " western " medicine has been deemed

to be more or less ineffective.

I'm wondering how much of these kind of " sham " studies are based on

ignorance, hidden agendas or the like.

 

 

On 5/5/07, Dr. Greg Sperber <greg wrote:

>

> There is another issue here and where I think the current attacks are

> being

> based from biomedicine: the use of " sham acupuncture. " After looking at

> dozens of papers that compare acupuncture to sham acupuncture, here is the

> general scenario: let's get a valid acupuncture protocol with TCM

> practitioner input which invariably includes big, popular points such as

> LI

> 4, St 36, Sp 6. Then for a control, we will use sham acupuncture. When you

> read the methodology these " shams " are usually placed 1-2 cm from the

> actual

> acupuncture points. Of course, in these big points a centimeter or two is

> probably still on the actual point, not taking into account angle of

> insertion or depth (which are rarely mentioned in the methods despite the

> excellent STRICTA protocols). So we have a situation where the actual

> acupuncture points are essentially the same as the sham points. So if the

> study shows positive impact then the headline reads, as it did 6 months

> ago,

> " Migraines helped by acupuncture, sham acupuncture equally helpful. " This

> gives ammo to critics who simply say it obviously doesn't matter which

> point

> is chosen and therefore the " system " doesn't work. Or in the case of this

> paper, which doesn't have a non-treatment control, even though there was a

> reduction of blood pressure (which may or may not be statistically valid),

> the treatment was essentially the same as the control and therefore the

> treatment is invalid.

>

> As acupuncturists we have to be very careful of this new trend for

> research

> to use " sham " acupuncture as a control. No matter the results, they are

> interpreted to be against acupuncture. The best design is probably a

> comparison of best practices where acupuncture is compared with the

> standard

> biomedical practice and may the best intervention win. Of course this is

> open to often heated debate.

>

> **************************************************************************

>

> Dr. Greg Sperber, BMBS, DAOM, MBA, L.Ac.

>

> California Licensed Acupuncturist

>

> Diplomate in Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM)

>

> Greg <Greg%40SperbsHerbs.com>

>

>

> ***************************************************************************

>

> > Hi All,

>

> >Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

> >treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

>

> >I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

>

> >Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) C 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

> >Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> >Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric

> A.

>

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Alon,

 

Several teachers in China have told me that CM doesn't treat HBP very

well. However, that may be in part due to the fact that the

contemporary Chinese reframing of hypertension into the traditional

Chinese disease categories of headache and dizziness is not correct in

the majority of cases, and, therefore, most patients are not getting

the right herbs. We call hypertension the " silent killer " because most

patients are asymptomatic FOR HYPERTENSION. They are not truly

asymptomatic however. They always do present a combination of

patterns. Nonetheless, the idea that elevated blood pressure is due to

ascendant liver yang hyperactivity is simply wrong. Based on that

erroneous idea, many patients are given the wrong Chinese meds. I have

recently published some case histories of HBP based on such patterns

as qi vacuity, etc. which did seemingly get significant results. My

point being, forget the modern textbook discussions of HBP and simply

treat the patient's presenting patterns.

 

Bob

 

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> Jason

> That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start

with. I have not treated to many BP pt but i have not seen much

reduction in pt with pressures about 150/100 i have seen changes in

mild cases. In china i have followed some 100 cases with high BP and i

cant say i saw one pt that had such BPs manage them with herbs alone

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

> Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:12 AM

> RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

>

> Alon,

>

> Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many

must continue taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom

formulas, but I actually have 2 patients that are completely managed

with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made granules). One of them needs only

6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3 scoops) in addition to her

custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee †" which is

completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my

poor intake I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI).

They reported back a couple months later and said that their BP had

gone down dramatically (this was a modified bulk san ren tang).

>

> I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs

steady for 6 months and it has now been gone for years. I have a

family history, so we will see with time… It seems like in most

people, with a little tweaking you can get things under control. If

the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction of meds but these

people usually have many other problems as well. What are other’s

experiences?

>

> -

>

> _____

>

>

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

>

> Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> Jason

> Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you

treated successfully?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> @

<%40>

> Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

> RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the

ability to work (for HBP and many other conditions). Just because a

modern cookbook style TCM approach may be found ineffective in some

research, does not mean that CM cannot treat that disease. Do you know

how many approaches one could find for any given complaint /

condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture, just

putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore

any standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either

way (if it will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does

work and laugh (or cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one

practices this way, or at least the practitioners that I respect and

the ones that I see get bomber results. So why perform research in a

way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only one way to

research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) †" Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

>

> IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to

see the individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché

holistic mumbo jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by

anyone who has spent time reading pre-modern or modern case studies.

Clearly it is my experience, and doctors that I have followed, that it

can effectively treat the very difficult diseases. Not just

musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample prescription (with

some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have observed or

read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

>

> Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to

modernize and simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc

does not mean that practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion

doesn’t work, X does not negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to

practice at the level that really makes use of all information (past

and present) and writes individualized formulas, essentially

practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China doing what

they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One

school I recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students

enrolled. (BTW- only around 33% of them end up practicing, most looked

like they for 18-20 years old, oh, they were).

>

> This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness,

there are many factors, including economics (as always). Why are

McDonalds popping up all over China? Training in China has many

problems like we do.

>

> To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the

research, that for example Bob has extensively published, comes from.

For example, for a PHD thesis many students decide to do some easy

research project, taking some base prescription with mods etc and

putting it to the test for a given disease. Just like what we commonly

read in the journals. When I was talking with the students they said,

yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for the

many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years.

Granted this (former) type of research can result in the newest and

greatest patent for disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is

not the in the trenches medicine. Granted there are all levels of

doctors, there are those that just give xiao yao san over and over,

but again let the results speak for themselves. Judging the medicine

on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

>

> Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct

advantage. The student who does want to break out of the box has

almost unlimited resources compared to us. There are old doctors to

study with, TCM libraries that I estimate are over 1000x bigger than

the average school US TCM library to access material. There are young

doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern trend and are

very vocal about it!

>

> Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair

to gauge how well the medicine performs by years of watching students

in a western school clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his

herbal abilities, but in the three school clinics I have been in, I

can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am not saying I am any

better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students. But

putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense

then concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations,

especially with the relatively poor level of practice that goes on in

the states (at least herbal medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions

in the school clinic are not a fair judge, they rarely spend much time

with patients and rely many times of the students observations and

perspectives.

>

> There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one

desires to access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches

(the way that is happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s

tools, not CM’s thinking!

>

> Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a

double edged sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It

is a complex arena and many differing opinions. There are many ideas

and articles on the subject.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> @

<%40>

[@

<%40> ] On

Behalf Of

> Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

> @

<%40>

> Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

> with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

> I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

> years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

> other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal

disorders.

>

>

> On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT)

<%40comcast.net> net wrote:

>

> > shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> > decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> > plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> > changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> > but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> > px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> > and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> > China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> > controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> > for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> > minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> > the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> > hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> > it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> > and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> > safe alternat

> > ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> > no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

> >

> > -------------- Original message ----------------------

> > " " < (AT) tinet (DOT)

<%40tinet.ie> ie>

> >> Hi All,

> >>

> >> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham

AP in

> >> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

> >> 90-109mm Hg).

> >>

> >> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

> >> below:

> >>

> >> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart

Association, Inc.

> >> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> >> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

> >> Eric A.

> >> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> >> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> >> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

> >> Zusman

> >> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> >> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> >> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston,

Mass;

> >> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

> >> R.M.Z.),

> >> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

> >> Alexandria,

> >> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

> >> Winston-

> >> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> >> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> >> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com

Case studies and small trials suggest that

> >> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

> >> randomized

> >> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the

Acupuncture

> >> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

> >> untreated blood

> >> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

> >> of the

> >> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> >> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> >> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

> >> assigned to 3

> >> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

> >> standardized

> >> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> >> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

> >> During

> >> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored

every 14

> >> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded

180/110 mm

> >> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> >> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

> >> assigned to

> >> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

> >> (systolic

> >> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

> >> difference: -4.0

> >> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

> >> CI for

> >> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

> >> participants by

> >> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

> >> obesity, or

> >> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

> >> subgroups

> >> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

> >> significantly from sham

> >> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

> >> invasive

> >> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> >> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

> >> trial o

> >> traditional Chinese medicine

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

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Bob

I cant agree with you more and add that is true for every single patient. Books

are always a source of ideas not treatment guides

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Bob Flaws

Saturday, May 05, 2007 1:21 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

Alon,

 

Several teachers in China have told me that CM doesn't treat HBP very

well. However, that may be in part due to the fact that the

contemporary Chinese reframing of hypertension into the traditional

Chinese disease categories of headache and dizziness is not correct in

the majority of cases, and, therefore, most patients are not getting

the right herbs. We call hypertension the " silent killer " because most

patients are asymptomatic FOR HYPERTENSION. They are not truly

asymptomatic however. They always do present a combination of

patterns. Nonetheless, the idea that elevated blood pressure is due to

ascendant liver yang hyperactivity is simply wrong. Based on that

erroneous idea, many patients are given the wrong Chinese meds. I have

recently published some case histories of HBP based on such patterns

as qi vacuity, etc. which did seemingly get significant results. My

point being, forget the modern textbook discussions of HBP and simply

treat the patient's presenting patterns.

 

Bob

 

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus wrote:

>

> Jason

> That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start

with. I have not treated to many BP pt but i have not seen much

reduction in pt with pressures about 150/100 i have seen changes in

mild cases. In china i have followed some 100 cases with high BP and i

cant say i saw one pt that had such BPs manage them with herbs alone

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

> Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:12 AM

> RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

>

> Alon,

>

> Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many

must continue taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom

formulas, but I actually have 2 patients that are completely managed

with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made granules). One of them needs only

6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3 scoops) in addition to her

custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee â? " which is

completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my

poor intake I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI).

They reported back a couple months later and said that their BP had

gone down dramatically (this was a modified bulk san ren tang).

>

> I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs

steady for 6 months and it has now been gone for years. I have a

family history, so we will see with timeâ?¦ It seems like in most

people, with a little tweaking you can get things under control. If

the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction of meds but these

people usually have many other problems as well. What are otherâ?Ts

experiences?

>

> -

>

> _____

>

>

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

> Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

>

> Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> Jason

> Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you

treated successfully?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> @

<%40>

> Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

> RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> I agree with Zâ?Tev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the

ability to work (for HBP and many other conditions). Just because a

modern cookbook style TCM approach may be found ineffective in some

research, does not mean that CM cannot treat that disease. Do you know

how many approaches one could find for any given complaint /

condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture, just

putting a needle in IMO is far from â?orealâ? acupuncture, therefore

any standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either

way (if it will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does

work and laugh (or cry) when it doesnâ?Tt. But clearly no one

practices this way, or at least the practitioners that I respect and

the ones that I see get bomber results. So why perform research in a

way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only one way to

research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) â? " Put

it as a whole, straight up against what ever your testing.

>

> IMO, â?oTrueâ? CM in practice literally relies on its ability to

see the individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché

holistic mumbo jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by

anyone who has spent time reading pre-modern or modern case studies.

Clearly it is my experience, and doctors that I have followed, that it

can effectively treat the very difficult diseases. Not just

musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample prescription (with

some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have observed or

read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

>

> Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to

modernize and simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc

does not mean that practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion

doesnâ?Tt work, X does not negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to

practice at the level that really makes use of all information (past

and present) and writes individualized formulas, essentially

practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China doing what

they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One

school I recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students

enrolled. (BTW- only around 33% of them end up practicing, most looked

like they for 18-20 years old, oh, they were).

>

> This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness,

there are many factors, including economics (as always). Why are

McDonalds popping up all over China? Training in China has many

problems like we do.

>

> To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the

research, that for example Bob has extensively published, comes from.

For example, for a PHD thesis many students decide to do some easy

research project, taking some base prescription with mods etc and

putting it to the test for a given disease. Just like what we commonly

read in the journals. When I was talking with the students they said,

yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for the

many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years.

Granted this (former) type of research can result in the newest and

greatest patent for disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is

not the in the trenches medicine. Granted there are all levels of

doctors, there are those that just give xiao yao san over and over,

but again let the results speak for themselves. Judging the medicine

on its lowest common denominator makes little sense to me.

>

> Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct

advantage. The student who does want to break out of the box has

almost unlimited resources compared to us. There are old doctors to

study with, TCM libraries that I estimate are over 1000x bigger than

the average school US TCM library to access material. There are young

doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern trend and are

very vocal about it!

>

> Addressing Toddâ?Ts 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair

to gauge how well the medicine performs by years of watching students

in a western school clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his

herbal abilities, but in the three school clinics I have been in, I

can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am not saying I am any

better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students. But

putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense

then concluding that CM doesnâ?Tt work from meager observations,

especially with the relatively poor level of practice that goes on in

the states (at least herbal medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions

in the school clinic are not a fair judge, they rarely spend much time

with patients and rely many times of the students observations and

perspectives.

>

> There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one

desires to access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches

(the way that is happening) is just Western medicine testing CMâ?Ts

tools, not CMâ?Ts thinking!

>

> Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a

double edged sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It

is a complex arena and many differing opinions. There are many ideas

and articles on the subject.

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> @

<%40>

[@

<%40> ] On

Behalf Of

> Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

> @

<%40>

> Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension

- SHARP Trial

>

> Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

> with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

> I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

> years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

> other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal

disorders.

>

>

> On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT)

<%40comcast.net> net wrote:

>

> > shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> > decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> > plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> > changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> > but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> > px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> > and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> > China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> > controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> > for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> > minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> > the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> > hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> > it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> > and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> > safe alternat

> > ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> > no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

> >

> > -------------- Original message ----------------------

> > " " < (AT) tinet (DOT)

<%40tinet.ie> ie>

> >> Hi All,

> >>

> >> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham

AP in

> >> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

> >> 90-109mm Hg).

> >>

> >> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

> >> below:

> >>

> >> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart

Association, Inc.

> >> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

> >> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

> >> Eric A.

> >> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

> >> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

> >> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

> >> Zusman

> >> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

> >> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

> >> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston,

Mass;

> >> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

> >> R.M.Z.),

> >> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

> >> Alexandria,

> >> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

> >> Winston-

> >> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

> >> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

> >> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com

Case studies and small trials suggest that

> >> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

> >> randomized

> >> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the

Acupuncture

> >> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

> >> untreated blood

> >> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

> >> of the

> >> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

> >> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

> >> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

> >> assigned to 3

> >> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

> >> standardized

> >> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

> >> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

> >> During

> >> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored

every 14

> >> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded

180/110 mm

> >> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

> >> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

> >> assigned to

> >> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

> >> (systolic

> >> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

> >> difference: -4.0

> >> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

> >> CI for

> >> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

> >> participants by

> >> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

> >> obesity, or

> >> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

> >> subgroups

> >> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

> >> significantly from sham

> >> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

> >> invasive

> >> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

> >> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

> >> trial o

> >> traditional Chinese medicine

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

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Guest guest

Dear Alon, Jason, Z'ev, Phil, Todd and all,

 

I feel very strongly that it is foolish and short-sighted to consider that

using simply a " tool " such as acupuncture alone is going to resolve a condition

such as hypertension. Hypertension as with virtually every other condition is a

manifestation of any number of patterns (eg. yin vacuity, liver fire, phlegm

fire, liver yang rising, etc) along with so many other factors such as genetic

predisposition, dietary indescretions, substance abuse, physical and emotional

traumas, etc. To successfully resolve it, we must take a comprehensive

approach, and any successful practitioner does just that. That means

addressing the patient's imbalances biochemically, biomechanically and

bioenergetically, as well as eliminating counterproductive behavior and

lifestyle, sources of toxicity,and addressing emotional traumas. High blood

pressure does not occur in a vacuum, and it is ridiculous to say that

acupuncture is ineffective in treating it, any more than it is ridiculous to say

that eating only organic produce will prevent liver disease or digestive

disorders.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with. I have not

treated to many BP pt but i have not seen much reduction in pt with pressures

about 150/100 i have seen changes in mild cases. In china i have followed some

100 cases with high BP and i cant say i saw one pt that had such BPs manage them

with herbs alone

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:12 AM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

Alon,

 

Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many must continue

taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom formulas, but I actually

have 2 patients that are completely managed with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made

granules). One of them needs only 6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3

scoops) in addition to her custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee –

which is completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my poor intake

I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI). They reported back a

couple months later and said that their BP had gone down dramatically (this was

a modified bulk san ren tang).

 

I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs steady for 6 months

and it has now been gone for years. I have a family history, so we will see with

time… It seems like in most people, with a little tweaking you can get things

under control. If the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction of meds

but these people usually have many other problems as well. What are other’s

experiences?

 

-

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

Jason

Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you treated

successfully?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

@ <%40>

 

Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

I agree with Z’ev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work (for

HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from “real†acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesn’t. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) – Put

it as a whole, straight up against what

ever your testing.

 

IMO, “True†CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize and

simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesn’t work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common

denominator makes little sense to me.

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

Addressing Todd’s 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesn’t work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CM’s tools, not CM’s thinking!

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP Trial

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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Yehuda

i was not talking about acupuncture but CM. The pt i followed in china were

mainly treated with herbs although some also did acup and qi gong. Emotional

trauma was certainty not addressed, at least were i was and at the time i was

there 1985. My interest in medicine is interventions that work on the majority

of the population. I do not think many are interested or have the time to deal

with their emotional traumas to lower their blood pressure, unless they suffer

emotional pain. I am a good example, I have genetic metabolic syndrome with

hypertension. I am willing to change my diet to some extent which is difficult

because i eat out more than i do at home. I train in aikido 3-4 times a week so

i do get some physical activity. I am willing to take herbs although i would

probably not be willing to cook formulas for extended periods. My attitude is

even more cooperative than many of the pt i see. So when talking about any

treatment i think it must be realistic. I have been trying to use alternative

methods for about 4 months or so. So far my blood pressure is reduced but not

enough to be in the recommended levels which are now at 120's/70's. I have been

taking combinations of powders and pills (with attention to multiple patterns)

as well as some of the more popular nutritional approaches. Obviously this was

not done in a " vacuum " although it would be nice to have the time to get regular

acup which i do not. Looking at current evidence, keeping blood pressure at the

recommended levels makes a big difference in prognosis so what is a person like

me to do. I could give it more time but i am probably damaging my heart and

kidneys by having a higher blood pressure.

Finally, as i said before i do not see many pt for blood pressure in my practice

so my US experience is limited to what i saw in school, following some of the

most well known practitioners in the US as well as my training in China. From

this experience when a pt asks me about treating hypertension at this point i

tell them that TCM does not predictably lowers blood pressure and i have seen

more failures than successes. I have seen many pt being able to reduce dosage of

their medicines. However the question is if they do not have much sideeffects

does that make much sense because it takes time and costs money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:54 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

Dear Alon, Jason, Z'ev, Phil, Todd and all,

 

I feel very strongly that it is foolish and short-sighted to consider that

using simply a " tool " such as acupuncture alone is going to resolve a condition

such as hypertension. Hypertension as with virtually every other condition is a

manifestation of any number of patterns (eg. yin vacuity, liver fire, phlegm

fire, liver yang rising, etc) along with so many other factors such as genetic

predisposition, dietary indescretions, substance abuse, physical and emotional

traumas, etc. To successfully resolve it, we must take a comprehensive approach,

and any successful practitioner does just that. That means addressing the

patient's imbalances biochemically, biomechanically and bioenergetically, as

well as eliminating counterproductive behavior and lifestyle, sources of

toxicity,and addressing emotional traumas. High blood pressure does not occur in

a vacuum, and it is ridiculous to say that acupuncture is ineffective in

treating it, any more than it is ridiculous to say

that eating only organic produce will prevent liver disease or digestive

disorders.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with. I have

not treated to many BP pt but i have not seen much reduction in pt with

pressures about 150/100 i have seen changes in mild cases. In china i have

followed some 100 cases with high BP and i cant say i saw one pt that had such

BPs manage them with herbs alone

 

 

 

-

Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:12 AM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Alon,

 

Not sure, quite a few. But I guess we must clarify things, many must continue

taking herbs / receive acupuncture. Most are on custom formulas, but I actually

have 2 patients that are completely managed with Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin (pre-made

granules). One of them needs only 6 capsules a day. (That is 3 grams or 3

scoops) in addition to her custom herb formula (osteoarthritis of the knee â? "

which is completely managed) (6 caps a day) - it took 1 week for it to start

working. Another I am thinking of was interesting because due to my poor intake

I had no idea they had HBP and just treated the CC (GI). They reported back a

couple months later and said that their BP had gone down dramatically (this was

a modified bulk san ren tang).

 

I myself had essential hypertension years ago, did raw herbs steady for 6

months and it has now been gone for years. I have a family history, so we will

see with timeâ?¦ It seems like in most people, with a little tweaking you can

get things under control. If the BP is too high already, you can get a reduction

of meds but these people usually have many other problems as well. What are

otherâ?Ts experiences?

 

-

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Friday, May 04, 2007 10:09 PM

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Jason

Out of curiosity how many pt with essential hypertension have you treated

successfully?

 

 

 

-

@ <%40>

 

Friday, May 04, 2007 8:58 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

I agree with Zâ?Tev here 100%. There is no doubt CM has the ability to work

(for HBP and many other conditions). Just because a modern cookbook style TCM

approach may be found ineffective in some research, does not mean that CM cannot

treat that disease. Do you know how many approaches one could find for any given

complaint / condition. This is just with herbs. But in regard to acupuncture,

just putting a needle in IMO is far from â?orealâ? acupuncture, therefore any

standardized point (or herbal) prescription is a crap shoot either way (if it

will work or not). We love to jump up and down when it does work and laugh (or

cry) when it doesnâ?Tt. But clearly no one practices this way, or at least the

practitioners that I respect and the ones that I see get bomber results. So why

perform research in a way that the medicine is not practiced? IMO there is only

one way to research CM, the way it is practiced (with placebos and all) â? " Put

it as a whole, straight up against what

ever your testing.

 

IMO, â?oTrueâ? CM in practice literally relies on its ability to see the

individual and customize treatments. This is not some cliché holistic mumbo

jumbo, but clearly demonstrated in the CM literature by anyone who has spent

time reading pre-modern or modern case studies. Clearly it is my experience, and

doctors that I have followed, that it can effectively treat the very difficult

diseases. Not just musculoskeletal. To judge CM with some base sample

prescription (with some mods) is just not how the great doctors (that I have

observed or read about) practice. It is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Over simplification? Just because the current trend in China is to modernize

and simplify the medicine with standardize protocols etc does not mean that

practicing in an (opposite) individualized fashion doesnâ?Tt work, X does not

negate Y. Quite frankly it is very hard to practice at the level that really

makes use of all information (past and present) and writes individualized

formulas, essentially practicing CM the way it is designed to. So why is China

doing what they are doing? This is a complicated question and answer. But China

is currently teaching to the masses, never before done like this. One school I

recently visited (ZheJiang) had over 10,000 students enrolled. (BTW- only around

33% of them end up practicing, most looked like they for 18-20 years old, oh,

they were).

 

This western modernization has little to do with effectiveness, there are many

factors, including economics (as always). Why are McDonalds popping up all over

China? Training in China has many problems like we do.

 

To put thing in perspective, one has to look where much of the research, that

for example Bob has extensively published, comes from. For example, for a PHD

thesis many students decide to do some easy research project, taking some base

prescription with mods etc and putting it to the test for a given disease. Just

like what we commonly read in the journals. When I was talking with the students

they said, yes it is easy, you can be done in a few months. This is great for

the many who just want there PHD and be out. The alternative is doing some

classical literature research (or whatever) which can take years. Granted this

(former) type of research can result in the newest and greatest patent for

disease X, which does happen, but come on, this is not the in the trenches

medicine. Granted there are all levels of doctors, there are those that just

give xiao yao san over and over, but again let the results speak for themselves.

Judging the medicine on its lowest common

denominator makes little sense to me.

 

Not to toally bash the Chinese, because they have 1 distinct advantage. The

student who does want to break out of the box has almost unlimited resources

compared to us. There are old doctors to study with, TCM libraries that I

estimate are over 1000x bigger than the average school US TCM library to access

material. There are young doctors that are totally rebelling against this modern

trend and are very vocal about it!

 

Addressing Toddâ?Ts 15 year observations: Do you think it is fair to gauge how

well the medicine performs by years of watching students in a western school

clinic? I have much respect for Todd and his herbal abilities, but in the three

school clinics I have been in, I can only laugh at the level of medicine. I am

not saying I am any better and I was at one time one of those fumbling students.

But putting a 75 year old Chinese doctor to the test makes much more sense then

concluding that CM doesnâ?Tt work from meager observations, especially with the

relatively poor level of practice that goes on in the states (at least herbal

medicine). Even supervisors prescriptions in the school clinic are not a fair

judge, they rarely spend much time with patients and rely many times of the

students observations and perspectives.

 

There are many levels and CM has a black hole of knowledge if one desires to

access it. It is not easy, but testing simflied approaches (the way that is

happening) is just Western medicine testing CMâ?Ts tools, not CMâ?Ts thinking!

 

Finally, because of all of this, I think standardization is a double edged

sword, and the many Chinese I have spoke with agree. It is a complex arena and

many differing opinions. There are many ideas and articles on the subject.

 

-

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

[@

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Friday, May 04, 2007 5:31 PM

@ <%40>

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

Ah, that's too bad, I guess I'll have to tell my patients I've helped

with hypertension over the years that it didn't really work. Also,

I'll have to tell all the patients I've treated over twenty-five

years with menstrual disorders, insomnia, digestive problems, and

other conditions that acupuncture only treats musculoskeletal disorders.

 

On May 4, 2007, at 2:28 PM, (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net

wrote:

 

> shocking. in 13 years of practice, I never saw any sustained

> decrease in BP from the typical regimen of any form of acupuncture

> plus patent meds that could not be explained by other concurrent

> changes such as diet and exercise. Not just talking about myself,

> but also the patients seen by dozens of others supposedly skilled

> px in school clinics. Even high does herbs are not very effective

> and I was always dismayed to learn how many senior herbalists from

> China took BP meds as they aged as a result. sadly, I predict

> controlled evidence will ultimately show that acupuncture is good

> for some musculoskeletal problems and herbs for a wide range of

> minor complaints. But this medicine is not going to turn out to be

> the salvation of the world. If you really could cure things like

> hepatitis or lupus with TCM, the chinese would be making hay out of

> it instead of racing headlong into their embrace of modern science

> and cutting edge therapies like stem cells. Chinese med is a nice

> safe alternat

> ive to the drugstore for many of the minor things that ail people.

> no miracle cures hiding anywhere.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> " " < (AT) tinet (DOT) <%40tinet.ie> ie>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>> treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic

>> 90-109mm Hg).

>>

>> I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is

>> below:

>>

>> Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) � 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>> Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>> Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial

>> Eric A.

>> Macklin; Peter M. Wayne; Leslie A. Kalish; Peter Valaskatgis; James

>> Thompson; May C.M. Pian-Smith; Qunhao Zhang; Stephanie Stevens;

>> Christine Goertz; Ronald J. Prineas; Beverly Buczynski; Randall M.

>> Zusman

>> From the New England Research Institutes (E.A.M., L.A.K., S.S.),

>> Watertown, Mass; New England School of Acupuncture (P.M.W., P.V.),

>> Watertown, Mass; Children�s Hospital Boston (L.A.K.), Boston, Mass;

>> Massachusetts General Hospital (J.T., M.C.M.P.-S., Q.Z., B.B.,

>> R.M.Z.),

>> Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass; Samueli Institute (C.G.),

>> Alexandria,

>> Va; and the School of Medicine (R.J.P.), Wake Forest University,

>> Winston-

>> Salem, NC. Correspondence to Eric A. Macklin, New England Research

>> Institutes, Inc, 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472. E-mail

>> EMacklin@NERIScienc <EMacklin%40NERIScience.com> e.com Case studies

and small trials suggest that

>> acupuncture may effectively treat hypertension, but no large

>> randomized

>> trials have been reported. The Stop Hypertension with the Acupuncture

>> Research Program pilot trial enrolled 192 participants with

>> untreated blood

>> pressure (BP) in the range of 140/90 to 179/109 mm Hg. The design

>> of the

>> trial combined rigorous methodology and adherence to principles of

>> traditional Chinese medicine. Participants were weaned off

>> antihypertensives before enrollment and were then randomly

>> assigned to 3

>> treatments: individualized traditional Chinese acupuncture,

>> standardized

>> acupuncture at preselected points, or invasive sham acupuncture.

>> Participants received 12 acupuncture treatments over 6 to 8 weeks.

>> During

>> the first 10 weeks after random assignment, BP was monitored every 14

>> days, and antihypertensives were prescribed if BP exceeded 180/110 mm

>> Hg. The mean BP decrease from baseline to 10 weeks, the primary end

>> point, did not differ significantly between participants randomly

>> assigned to

>> active (individualized and standardized) versus sham acupuncture

>> (systolic

>> BP: -3.56 versus -3.84 mm Hg, respectively; 95% CI for the

>> difference: -4.0

>> to 4.6 mm Hg; P=0.90; diastolic BP: -4.32 versus -2.81 mm Hg, 95%

>> CI for

>> the difference: -3.6 to 0.6 mm Hg; P=0.16). Categorizing

>> participants by

>> age, race, gender, baseline BP, history of antihypertensive use,

>> obesity, or

>> primary traditional Chinese medicine diagnosis did not reveal any

>> subgroups

>> for which the benefits of active acupuncture differed

>> significantly from sham

>> acupuncture. Active acupuncture provided no greater benefit than

>> invasive

>> sham acupuncture in reducing systolic or diastolic BP. Key Words:

>> acupuncture o blood pressure o hypertension o randomized clinical

>> trial o

>> traditional Chinese medicine

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>>

>>

>>

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_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

 

 

 

Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with.

 

Alon,

 

Across the board.

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

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Jason

I do not understand what you mean by across the board

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:51 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

 

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

 

Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with.

 

Alon,

 

Across the board.

 

-Jason

 

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A,

 

 

 

Some low, some high. Obviously the higher it gets the harder it becomes.

 

 

 

-JB

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

Sunday, May 06, 2007 5:57 PM

 

Re: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

 

 

Jason

I do not understand what you mean by across the board

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

@ <%40>

 

Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:51 PM

RE: Acupuncture no better than sham in hypertension - SHARP

Trial

 

_____

 

@ <%40>

 

[@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of Alon Marcus

 

Jason

That would have been my next question, what was the BP to start with.

 

Alon,

 

Across the board.

 

-Jason

 

 

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I am sorry about the crosspost, but since the original was crossposted, here

are my comments:

 

 

 

There is another issue here and where I think the current attacks are being

based from biomedicine: the use of " sham acupuncture. " After looking at

dozens of papers that compare acupuncture to sham acupuncture, here is the

general scenario: let's get a valid acupuncture protocol with TCM

practitioner input which invariably includes big, popular points such as LI

4, St 36, Sp 6. Then for a control, we will use sham acupuncture. When you

read the methodology these " shams " are usually placed 1-2 cm from the actual

acupuncture points. Of course, in these big points a centimeter or two is

probably still on the actual point, not taking into account angle of

insertion or depth (which are rarely mentioned in the methods despite the

excellent STRICTA protocols). So we have a situation where the actual

acupuncture points are essentially the same as the sham points. So if the

study shows positive impact then the headline reads, as it did 6 months ago,

" Migraines helped by acupuncture, sham acupuncture equally helpful. " This

gives ammo to critics who simply say it obviously doesn't matter which point

is chosen and therefore the " system " doesn't work. Or in the case of this

paper, which doesn't have a non-treatment control, even though there was a

reduction of blood pressure (which may or may not be statistically valid),

the treatment was essentially the same as the control and therefore the

treatment is invalid.

 

As acupuncturists we have to be very careful of this new trend for research

to use " sham " acupuncture as a control. No matter the results, they are

interpreted to be against acupuncture. The best design is probably a

comparison of best practices where acupuncture is compared with the standard

biomedical practice and may the best intervention win. Of course this is

open to often heated debate.

 

 

 

**************************************************************************

 

Dr. Greg Sperber, BMBS, DAOM, MBA, L.Ac.

 

California Licensed Acupuncturist

 

Diplomate in Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM)

 

Greg

 

***************************************************************************

 

 

 

> Hi All,

 

>Bad news: the SHARP trial reported no benefit from AP over sham AP in

>treating hypertension (BP: systolic 140-179mm Hg; diastolic 90-109mm Hg).

 

>I have not been able to access the full text but the abstract is below:

 

>Hypertension. 2006;48:838.) C 2006 American Heart Association, Inc.

>Original Articles Stop Hypertension With the Acupuncture Research

>Program (SHARP) Results of a Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial Eric A

 

 

 

 

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