Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

[Guest guest]

Dear Joe,

 

I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are practicing

Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory, diagnosis and treatment

techniques. I, myself, have for decades been drawn to different methods and

forms of natural healing and medicine, but specifically chose to study and later

practice TCM because I love the fact that it views each individual with

specificity, and by determining whether the person's condition is replete or

vacuitous, hot or cold, internal or external, and Yin and yang, by determining

the differential diagnosis based upon the relationship of the organs, and based

upon so much more, we are able to see how the patient is out of balance, and

what needs to be done INDIVIDUALLY to put them in balance. When I read your

response, I felt that you were taking the approach of a nutritionist in a

healthfood store or perhaps a naturopathic physician. The problem with that

approach is that it takes a very western shotgun approach, just

substituting nutraceuticals for pharmaceuticals, but just doesn't treat the

individual. The substances that you mention all have merit: colloidal silver

and oil of oregano, as well as grapefruit seed extract, are useful antibiotics

and antifungals (but thermally and energetically different), yogurt and

vegetable juice can be beneficial in appropriate applications, though I would

hardly recommend yogurt to someone who has damp accumumulation and cold. I also

don't know why you would recommend a highly processed canned vegetable juice

such as V8, when we have available such wonderful fresh, and organic

alternatives. And again, in the case you were commenting upon there appeared to

be a problem with dampness, which vegetable juice would exascerbate! So,again I

think you are off base. Finally, Essiac, originally was a wonderful balanced

formula of westerb herbs: Burdock Root, Sheep Sorrel, Rhubarb Root and

Slippery Elm Bark, with Blessed Thistle, Red Clover,

Watercress, and Kelp later added to it. Our colleague, Ed Kasper presents a

nice Chinese medical summary of the properties of the first four at:

www.happyherbalist.com/essiac_tea.htm. But, again, we don't treat with one cure

heals all panaceas, and any herbs used need to be individually modified!

 

Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really taken aback by

a) how you could make such recommendations on a Chinese medical site, and b) how

your approach was accepted essentially without comment. My only goal is to

educate, not condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

 

 

 

 

 

Joyce <joyces wrote:

Joe:

 

Why the Essiac? I have heard that those with cancer are drinking this tea but

I'm not really sure what's in it. What are your thoughts on GSE (grapefruit seed

extract) as well?

 

Joyce

 

-

Joe Carrot

Chinese Medicine

Monday, March 19, 2007 1:17 PM

Re: Challenging patient-numerous issues

 

I would encourage her to Together these remedies could make a significant

difference in her quality of life.

 

 

natdoc48 <natdoc48

Chinese Medicine

Monday, March 19, 2007 11:20:21 AM

Challenging patient-numerous issues

 

I am hoping to get some help here. I have been treating a patient for

about a year with acupuncture, herbs, and prior to that, naturopathy.

She came to me originally in Feb 06 with complaints of tension HAs,

fibromyalgia, digestive complaints, insomnia, hot flashes and leg pain.

Some of the digestive complaints cleared up with diet changes. The

headaches persisted (mostly occipital, in a T-zone across the upper

back and neck).

She is on Buspar for anxiety, Fiorinal/Fioracet for headaches, Xantac

sometimes for reflux. She has a history of UTI's that were severe

many years ago when living in Arizona and had been under control for

about the last 7 years. They started up again in April 06. (she moved

" back " to Wisconsin in 04). She has had exploratory surgery in the

fall that revealed inflammation. She stopped going into the hot tub

at her complex at my suggestion and all was well until last week, when

she came down with another UTI. A culture revealed E.Coli as it has

in the past.

Her mother passed away this past year, resulting in grief and added

stress during her mother's last days/weeks (it was her mother and

father's declining health that prompted the move to WI. Her father

died in 04). She also received a promotion in her job, which she

" loves " but has added much stress.

She is petit and has lost weight of late. Originally she was not

concerned, and actually happy about the weight loss, but now expresses

some concern that she is becoming too thin.

 

Her tongue is pale purple, swollen and typically damp, with a light

coat. She has a deep crevice in the center of her tongue that today

was heavily coated in a cream color.

Her pulses are usually wiry in the R middle position and deficient in

the L middle position. KD pulses are typically thin and deficient.

 

The reason I am writing is: today she came in and recapped her week

this week, which included some severe chest pains and a feeling of

disorientation which prompted a visit to her WM clinic. Testing ruled

out any heart related issues. A chest x-rays showed a small shadow in

one of her lungs which has now been referred to a pulmonologist. (her

mother had emphysema). She is recovering from wind-cold/wind- heat

following a recent business trip to FL. (so common here for everyone

going to a warm climate during the winter to get sick on re-entry).

She was given antibiotics for the UTI at the clinic. Because of the

UTI sx at her visit last week, I did not moxa her abdominally as I

have been to help with her digestive complaints. The digestive

complaints (gas and bloating) have been gone since we have started the

salt and moxa at CV8 about 6 weeks ago, but digressed with the trip to

FL and now are much worse with the antibiotics.

 

She is wondering if acupuncture and chinese medicine are helping at

all after a year of almost weekly treatments. I hear what she is

saying and I wonder and I wonder how I could be doing this

differently. As I look over her chart, and as I explained to her I

keep trying to put out fires. Each week, something else is squeeking

more loudly to be treated...many times it is the head aches and upper

back aches and fatigue. The fatigue is aggravated, I am sure by the

caffeine laden Fioracet, sometimes taking 7-9 per week. Sometimes it

is digestion. Sometimes emotional complaints (she had also asked at

one point that I just do front treatments cos she " gets so much from

the front treatments emotionally " and not enough pain relief from the

back tx to give up the front tx). Sometimes hot flashes. Sometimes UTIs.

 

I know I am missing some important information and I know I have

written alot here already. Please let me know if you have questions

about what I have written and what I may have done re: treatment.

 

I am sure I don't always focus on the root, and as I said, instead go

chasing after fires. I was also taught about the importance of

treating what the person says is the main complaint.

I certainly see spleen qi deficiency with kidney yin deficiency

(absence of KD pulses, presence of hot flashes), blood deficiency (due

to spleen qi deficiency).

 

I recognize that I am a novice (in practice a year and a half) and I

am very interested in learning from your experience. BTW, I use

patents from Nuherbs, Mayway, and a few from Golden Flower.

 

Thanks for listening.

Meredith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

Yehuda,

With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

inclusion in this site.

Peace,

Cameron

 

 

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The essence of

Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The essence of Western medical

practice is to address and attack symptoms. If other healing methods and

traditions promote this balance and are utilitzed within the framework of

Chinese methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this condition or

people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is not consistant. Thus the

distinction.

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

Yehuda,

With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

inclusion in this site.

Peace,

Cameron

 

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have even wondered if it is allowed in the US to kill a dozen pigeons in

order to try to lower someone's viral count. Around here, animal rights

activists would be jumping on a case like that.

 

I never use dan nan xing because of the terrible circumstances the bears

live and die.

In the same way I would never consider killing any animal in order to try to

get physically better.

 

respectfully,

 

Tom.

 

----

 

yehuda frischman

23/03/2007 18:41:29

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The essence of

Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The essence of Western

medical practice is to address and attack symptoms. If other healing methods

and traditions promote this balance and are utilitzed within the framework

of Chinese methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this condition

or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is not consistant.

Thus the distinction.

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

Yehuda,

With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

inclusion in this site.

Peace,

Cameron

 

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Tom,

 

Please refer in the original thread to an exchange I had with our esteemed

colleague, Dr. , where this issue is alluded to. I contend that

there is an inherent difference between human beings and animals, and whereas it

is strictly forbidden to induce unnecessary pain upon any living creature, (The

Torah actually forbid cruelty to animals and views one who tears a limb from a

living being with the same seriousness as murder!) Judaism views the human

being as the crown of creation given enormous responsibility as the steward to

protect and sustain the planet and all living creatures, but also with the

privilege to utilitize the bounty given over to humankind, including animals, in

order to sustain and promote human well being, guard one's health and prevent

disease, albeit with sensitivity and purpose. Therefore, though permitted,

enormous care needs to be exhibited when endeavoring to use animals for healing

and medicine, and with cases such as the dove

cure.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

 

I have even wondered if it is allowed in the US to kill a dozen pigeons in

order to try to lower someone's viral count. Around here, animal rights

activists would be jumping on a case like that.

 

I never use dan nan xing because of the terrible circumstances the bears

live and die.

In the same way I would never consider killing any animal in order to try to

get physically better.

 

respectfully,

 

Tom.

 

----

 

yehuda frischman

23/03/2007 18:41:29

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The essence of

Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The essence of Western

medical practice is to address and attack symptoms. If other healing methods

and traditions promote this balance and are utilitzed within the framework

of Chinese methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this condition

or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is not consistant.

Thus the distinction.

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

Yehuda,

With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

inclusion in this site.

Peace,

Cameron

 

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

" Therefore, though permitted, enormous care needs to be exhibited when

endeavoring to use animals for healing and medicine, and with cases such as

the dove cure. "

 

I understand what you are saying about speciesism, and I agree that humans

have greater abilities and responsibilities than animals. But in the case of

viral infection, the way of less suffering is clearly not to " sacrifice "

doves but to take Western drugs, or Chinese herbs, or whatever. I am no

expert on the Torah but can hardly imagine that any religious scripture

would endorse such practices. Perhaps when there were no alternatives, but

that is not the case now.

 

Respectfully,

 

Tom.

 

----

 

yehuda frischman

23/03/2007 19:33:43

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

Dear Tom,

 

Please refer in the original thread to an exchange I had with our esteemed

colleague, Dr. , where this issue is alluded to. I contend that

there is an inherent difference between human beings and animals, and

whereas it is strictly forbidden to induce unnecessary pain upon any living

creature, (The Torah actually forbid cruelty to animals and views one who

tears a limb from a living being with the same seriousness as murder!)

Judaism views the human being as the crown of creation given enormous

responsibility as the steward to protect and sustain the planet and all

living creatures, but also with the privilege to utilitize the bounty given

over to humankind, including animals, in order to sustain and promote human

well being, guard one's health and prevent disease, albeit with sensitivity

and purpose. Therefore, though permitted, enormous care needs to be

exhibited when endeavoring to use animals for healing and medicine, and with

cases such as the dove

cure.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Recent Activity

11New Members

3New Photos

Visit Your Group

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

anus?

Most respectfully yours,

Cameron

 

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

not consistant. Thus the distinction.

>

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

> frischman <@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Joe,

> >

> Yehuda,

> With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

> thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

> inclusion in this site.

> Peace,

> Cameron

>

> > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

> practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

> diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

> taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

> Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

> essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

> condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

 

>

>

>

>

>

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

This Torah directive includes any therapy to lessen illness, pain or

dysfunctionality. Viral hepatitis clearly interferes with the quality and

length of one's life and causes pain. Therefore with the greatest care and

trepidation, to utilize doves, and even have them die for this purpose is not

only allowed, but required, if other comparably effective therapies are not

available.

 

Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

Hi Yehuda,

 

" Therefore, though permitted, enormous care needs to be exhibited when

endeavoring to use animals for healing and medicine, and with cases such as

the dove cure. "

 

I understand what you are saying about speciesism, and I agree that humans

have greater abilities and responsibilities than animals. But in the case of

viral infection, the way of less suffering is clearly not to " sacrifice "

doves but to take Western drugs, or Chinese herbs, or whatever. I am no

expert on the Torah but can hardly imagine that any religious scripture

would endorse such practices. Perhaps when there were no alternatives, but

that is not the case now.

 

Respectfully,

 

Tom.

 

----

 

yehuda frischman

23/03/2007 19:33:43

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

Dear Tom,

 

Please refer in the original thread to an exchange I had with our esteemed

colleague, Dr. , where this issue is alluded to. I contend that

there is an inherent difference between human beings and animals, and

whereas it is strictly forbidden to induce unnecessary pain upon any living

creature, (The Torah actually forbid cruelty to animals and views one who

tears a limb from a living being with the same seriousness as murder!)

Judaism views the human being as the crown of creation given enormous

responsibility as the steward to protect and sustain the planet and all

living creatures, but also with the privilege to utilitize the bounty given

over to humankind, including animals, in order to sustain and promote human

well being, guard one's health and prevent disease, albeit with sensitivity

and purpose. Therefore, though permitted, enormous care needs to be

exhibited when endeavoring to use animals for healing and medicine, and with

cases such as the dove

cure.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Recent Activity

11New Members

3New Photos

Visit Your Group

 

[Guest guest]

Your question is ludicrous and your sarcasm uncalled for. The therapy obviously

is reducing. As I mentioned in the original thread, autopsies of doves used in

this therapy at Hadassah Hospital revealed the cause of death to be

asphyxiation, not hepatitis, thus restoring imbalance in the patient.

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: Yehuda

Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

anus?

Most respectfully yours,

Cameron

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

not consistant. Thus the distinction.

>

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

> frischman <@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Joe,

> >

> Yehuda,

> With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

> thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

> inclusion in this site.

> Peace,

> Cameron

>

> > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

> practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

> diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

> taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

> Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

> essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

> condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

 

>

>

>

>

>

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Maybe we could take an acupuncture approach to this topic: we all know that

there are points which neatly fit into the doctrinal theory of chinese medicine,

and that there are other points, usually called " experience points " , that have

little or no theoretical backing. In other words, they are often used in a more

formulaic way than the regular channel points.

Herbals, and other treatments are like this. Many fall into a theoretical

frame, and some don't. For those of us familiar with folk practices, there do

seem to be many proven and relied upon treatments which have no massive

theretical foundation behind (if any at all) - they are simply used because they

work in such and such a situation.

This means that while there may not be a differential diagnosis, there should

be indications and contraindications for the use of this " experiential " therapy.

If the therapy mentioned by Yehuda can be said to fulfill the above, then it can

qualify as chinese medicine.

Thoughts?

Hugo

 

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 23 March, 2007 2:48:14 PM

Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda

 

Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

 

anus?

 

Most respectfully yours,

 

Cameron

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

 

frischman <@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

 

essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

 

essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

 

symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

 

balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

 

methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

 

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

 

condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

 

not consistant. Thus the distinction.

 

>

 

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister@ ...> wrote: --- In

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

 

> frischman <@> wrote:

 

> >

 

> > Dear Joe,

 

> >

 

> Yehuda,

 

> With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

 

> thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

 

> inclusion in this site.

 

> Peace,

 

> Cameron

 

>

 

> > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

 

> practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

 

> diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

 

> > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

 

> taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

 

> Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

 

> essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

 

> condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

 

> >

 

> > Sincerely,

 

> >

 

> >

 

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

 

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

 

> Be a PS3 game guru.

 

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

 

Games.

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

My point, which was never a question, was to hold you to the same

standard you held Joe. Either we allow these extraordinary

experiences or not. I am for it.

Some things work because they work, some simply by

Faith. But I was not sarcastic, rather serious and in earnest.

Respectfully yours,

Cameron

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. I, myself, have for decades

been drawn to different methods and forms of natural healing and

medicine, but specifically chose to study and later practice TCM

because I love the fact that it views each individual with

specificity, and by determining whether the person's condition is

replete or vacuitous, hot or cold, internal or external, and Yin and

yang, by determining the differential diagnosis based upon the

relationship of the organs, and based upon so much more, we are able

to see how the patient is out of balance, and what needs to be done

INDIVIDUALLY to put them in balance. When I read your response, I

felt that you were taking the approach of a nutritionist in a

healthfood store or perhaps a naturopathic physician.

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Joyce <joyces wrote:

> Joe:

>

> Why the Essiac? I have heard that those with cancer are drinking

this tea but I'm not really sure what's in it. What are your

thoughts on GSE (grapefruit seed extract) as well?

>

> Joyce

>

> -

> Joe Carrot

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, March 19, 2007 1:17 PM

> Re: Challenging patient-numerous issues

>

> I would encourage her to Together these remedies could make a

significant difference in her quality of life.

>

>

> natdoc48 <natdoc48

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, March 19, 2007 11:20:21 AM

> Challenging patient-numerous issues

>

> I am hoping to get some help here. I have been treating a patient

for

> about a year with acupuncture, herbs, and prior to that,

naturopathy.

> She came to me originally in Feb 06 with complaints of tension HAs,

> fibromyalgia, digestive complaints, insomnia, hot flashes and leg

pain.

> Some of the digestive complaints cleared up with diet changes. The

> headaches persisted (mostly occipital, in a T-zone across the upper

> back and neck).

> She is on Buspar for anxiety, Fiorinal/Fioracet for headaches,

Xantac

> sometimes for reflux. She has a history of UTI's that were severe

> many years ago when living in Arizona and had been under control

for

> about the last 7 years. They started up again in April 06. (she

moved

> " back " to Wisconsin in 04). She has had exploratory surgery in the

> fall that revealed inflammation. She stopped going into the hot tub

> at her complex at my suggestion and all was well until last week,

when

> she came down with another UTI. A culture revealed E.Coli as it has

> in the past.

> Her mother passed away this past year, resulting in grief and added

> stress during her mother's last days/weeks (it was her mother and

> father's declining health that prompted the move to WI. Her father

> died in 04). She also received a promotion in her job, which she

> " loves " but has added much stress.

> She is petit and has lost weight of late. Originally she was not

> concerned, and actually happy about the weight loss, but now

expresses

> some concern that she is becoming too thin.

>

> Her tongue is pale purple, swollen and typically damp, with a light

> coat. She has a deep crevice in the center of her tongue that today

> was heavily coated in a cream color.

> Her pulses are usually wiry in the R middle position and deficient

in

> the L middle position. KD pulses are typically thin and deficient.

>

> The reason I am writing is: today she came in and recapped her week

> this week, which included some severe chest pains and a feeling of

> disorientation which prompted a visit to her WM clinic. Testing

ruled

> out any heart related issues. A chest x-rays showed a small shadow

in

> one of her lungs which has now been referred to a pulmonologist.

(her

> mother had emphysema). She is recovering from wind-cold/wind- heat

> following a recent business trip to FL. (so common here for

everyone

> going to a warm climate during the winter to get sick on re-

entry).

> She was given antibiotics for the UTI at the clinic. Because of the

> UTI sx at her visit last week, I did not moxa her abdominally as I

> have been to help with her digestive complaints. The digestive

> complaints (gas and bloating) have been gone since we have started

the

> salt and moxa at CV8 about 6 weeks ago, but digressed with the

trip to

> FL and now are much worse with the antibiotics.

>

> She is wondering if acupuncture and chinese medicine are helping at

> all after a year of almost weekly treatments. I hear what she is

> saying and I wonder and I wonder how I could be doing this

> differently. As I look over her chart, and as I explained to her I

> keep trying to put out fires. Each week, something else is

squeeking

> more loudly to be treated...many times it is the head aches and

upper

> back aches and fatigue. The fatigue is aggravated, I am sure by the

> caffeine laden Fioracet, sometimes taking 7-9 per week. Sometimes

it

> is digestion. Sometimes emotional complaints (she had also asked at

> one point that I just do front treatments cos she " gets so much

from

> the front treatments emotionally " and not enough pain relief from

the

> back tx to give up the front tx). Sometimes hot flashes. Sometimes

UTIs.

>

> I know I am missing some important information and I know I have

> written alot here already. Please let me know if you have questions

> about what I have written and what I may have done re: treatment.

>

> I am sure I don't always focus on the root, and as I said, instead

go

> chasing after fires. I was also taught about the importance of

> treating what the person says is the main complaint.

> I certainly see spleen qi deficiency with kidney yin deficiency

> (absence of KD pulses, presence of hot flashes), blood deficiency

(due

> to spleen qi deficiency).

>

> I recognize that I am a novice (in practice a year and a half) and

I

> am very interested in learning from your experience. BTW, I use

> patents from Nuherbs, Mayway, and a few from Golden Flower.

>

> Thanks for listening.

> Meredith

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

symptoms.

>>>>>

That is way too simplistic of a statement and is not supported by fact

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Friday, March 23, 2007 12:06 PM

Re: Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

 

Your question is ludicrous and your sarcasm uncalled for. The therapy

obviously is reducing. As I mentioned in the original thread, autopsies of doves

used in this therapy at Hadassah Hospital revealed the cause of death to be

asphyxiation, not hepatitis, thus restoring imbalance in the patient.

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: Yehuda

Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

anus?

Most respectfully yours,

Cameron

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

frischman < wrote:

>

> Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

not consistant. Thus the distinction.

>

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , yehuda

> frischman <@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Joe,

> >

> Yehuda,

> With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

> thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

> inclusion in this site.

> Peace,

> Cameron

>

> > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

> practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

> diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

> > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

> taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

> Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

> essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

> condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Okay, I was trying to stay out of this because what I know of Yehuda, he seems

to be a very kind and caring person. However, I do have trouble with the dove

sacrifice as I guess Tom does. I just read the first post for interest and then

did not read the rest, because I would have real trouble doing this. However it

is in Yehuda's tradition and it is all over the Bible and other historical

references about animal sacrifice; so some traditions and cultures can accept

this more readily.

 

I personally don't see it as the same as Chinese medicine where the body is

called upon to balance itself, or plants are sacrificed for herbal remedies.

 

With my due respect to Yehuda and others,

 

Anne

 

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> Hi all,

>

> Maybe we could take an acupuncture approach to this topic: we all know that

> there are points which neatly fit into the doctrinal theory of chinese

medicine,

> and that there are other points, usually called " experience points " , that have

> little or no theoretical backing. In other words, they are often used in a

more

> formulaic way than the regular channel points.

> Herbals, and other treatments are like this. Many fall into a theoretical

> frame, and some don't. For those of us familiar with folk practices, there do

> seem to be many proven and relied upon treatments which have no massive

> theretical foundation behind (if any at all) - they are simply used because

they

> work in such and such a situation.

> This means that while there may not be a differential diagnosis, there should

> be indications and contraindications for the use of this " experiential "

therapy.

> If the therapy mentioned by Yehuda can be said to fulfill the above, then it

can

> qualify as chinese medicine.

> Thoughts?

> Hugo

>

>

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister

> Chinese Medicine

> Friday, 23 March, 2007 2:48:14 PM

> Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Yehuda

>

> Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

>

> anus?

>

> Most respectfully yours,

>

> Cameron

>

>

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

>

> frischman <@.. .> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

>

> essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

>

> essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

>

> symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

>

> balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

>

> methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

>

> approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

>

> condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

>

> not consistant. Thus the distinction.

>

> >

>

> > cameronhollister <cameronhollister@ ...> wrote: --- In

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

>

> > frischman <@> wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > > Dear Joe,

>

> > >

>

> > Yehuda,

>

> > With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

>

> > thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

>

> > inclusion in this site.

>

> > Peace,

>

> > Cameron

>

> >

>

> > > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

>

> > practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

>

> > diagnosis and treatment techniques. >

>

> > > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

>

> > taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

>

> > Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

>

> > essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

>

> > condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> > >

>

> > > Sincerely,

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

>

> > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ------------ --------- --------- ---

>

> > Be a PS3 game guru.

>

> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

>

> Games.

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

Anne,

I also didn't want to jump into this, but it seems necessary at

this point.

 

While I share your sentiments about plant remedies versus use of

animals (and I know that Yehuda, a dear friend, also prefers this),

many ingredients in the Chinese materia medica are from animal and

insect parts. Some require the killing of animals or are the

byproduct of the killing of animals, such as bear bile, rhinoceros

horn, tortoise shell, tiger bone, etc. While many of these products

are now banned or limited because of endangerment of species, let's

not say that somehow Chinese medicine is superior in the regard of

sacrifice of animals for medicine. All traditional medical systems

had animal remedies when necessary.

 

In my own practice, I try to avoid animal or insect parts as much

as possible, but sometimes they are necessary. In using them, a

physician doesn't automatically lose their compassion or sensitivity

towards life. Yehuda follows, like myself, a predominantly

vegetarian approach to life, if not exclusively vegan.

 

Being against animal cruelty in the modern era would mean that one

should avoid mass-produced animal products such as meat, milk and

chicken, because of the conditions in which these animals are raised.

 

I have studied both Talmudic and Maimonide's application of

Greco-Arabic medicine, and both systems rely predominantly on plant

medicines for cure, and both, like Chinese medicine, are based

largely on systems approach to equilibrium as their goals. Sometimes

it was determined that an unusual remedy such as the pigeons for

hepatitis was necessary to save a human life. We debate the ethics

of sacrificing an animal's life to save a human being's life, but as

you point out, this was and is definitely 'kosher' in Torah ethics.

Today, perhaps, we have methods that require less sacrifice from

animals. However, I would be hesitant to dismiss this one

application to judge Talmudic or Greco-Arabic medicine as a whole, or

individuals such as Yehuda who are studying and trying to apply these

systems.

 

 

On Mar 23, 2007, at 2:19 PM, anne.crowley wrote:

 

> Okay, I was trying to stay out of this because what I know of

> Yehuda, he seems to be a very kind and caring person. However, I do

> have trouble with the dove sacrifice as I guess Tom does. I just

> read the first post for interest and then did not read the rest,

> because I would have real trouble doing this. However it is in

> Yehuda's tradition and it is all over the Bible and other

> historical references about animal sacrifice; so some traditions

> and cultures can accept this more readily.

>

> I personally don't see it as the same as Chinese medicine where the

> body is called upon to balance itself, or plants are sacrificed for

> herbal remedies.

>

> With my due respect to Yehuda and others,

>

> Anne

>

> Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> > Hi all,

> >

> > Maybe we could take an acupuncture approach to this topic: we all

> know that

> > there are points which neatly fit into the doctrinal theory of

> chinese medicine,

> > and that there are other points, usually called " experience

> points " , that have

> > little or no theoretical backing. In other words, they are often

> used in a more

> > formulaic way than the regular channel points.

> > Herbals, and other treatments are like this. Many fall into a

> theoretical

> > frame, and some don't. For those of us familiar with folk

> practices, there do

> > seem to be many proven and relied upon treatments which have no

> massive

> > theretical foundation behind (if any at all) - they are simply

> used because they

> > work in such and such a situation.

> > This means that while there may not be a differential diagnosis,

> there should

> > be indications and contraindications for the use of this

> " experiential " therapy.

> > If the therapy mentioned by Yehuda can be said to fulfill the

> above, then it can

> > qualify as chinese medicine.

> > Thoughts?

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > cameronhollister <cameronhollister

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Friday, 23 March, 2007 2:48:14 PM

> > Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yehuda

> >

> > Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

> >

> > anus?

> >

> > Most respectfully yours,

> >

> > Cameron

> >

> >

> >

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

> >

> > frischman <@.. .> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference: The

> >

> > essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

> >

> > essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

> >

> > symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

> >

> > balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

> >

> > methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

> >

> > approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

> >

> > condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I feel is

> >

> > not consistant. Thus the distinction.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > cameronhollister <cameronhollister@ ...> wrote: --- In

> >

> > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

> >

> > > frischman <@> wrote:

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > > Dear Joe,

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > Yehuda,

> >

> > > With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

> >

> > > thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria for

> >

> > > inclusion in this site.

> >

> > > Peace,

> >

> > > Cameron

>

>

> Recent Activity

> 11

> New Members

> 3

> New Photos

> Visit Your Group

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Can we leave religion out of email messages please. References to the

bible or something that is kosher doesn't serve the purpose of this

group and makes the fluidity murker.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Anne,

> I also didn't want to jump into this, but it seems necessary

at

> this point.

>

> While I share your sentiments about plant remedies versus use of

> animals (and I know that Yehuda, a dear friend, also prefers

this),

> many ingredients in the Chinese materia medica are from animal and

> insect parts. Some require the killing of animals or are the

> byproduct of the killing of animals, such as bear bile, rhinoceros

> horn, tortoise shell, tiger bone, etc. While many of these

products

> are now banned or limited because of endangerment of species,

let's

> not say that somehow Chinese medicine is superior in the regard of

> sacrifice of animals for medicine. All traditional medical

systems

> had animal remedies when necessary.

>

> In my own practice, I try to avoid animal or insect parts as

much

> as possible, but sometimes they are necessary. In using them, a

> physician doesn't automatically lose their compassion or

sensitivity

> towards life. Yehuda follows, like myself, a predominantly

> vegetarian approach to life, if not exclusively vegan.

>

> Being against animal cruelty in the modern era would mean that

one

> should avoid mass-produced animal products such as meat, milk and

> chicken, because of the conditions in which these animals are

raised.

>

> I have studied both Talmudic and Maimonide's application of

> Greco-Arabic medicine, and both systems rely predominantly on

plant

> medicines for cure, and both, like Chinese medicine, are based

> largely on systems approach to equilibrium as their goals.

Sometimes

> it was determined that an unusual remedy such as the pigeons for

> hepatitis was necessary to save a human life. We debate the

ethics

> of sacrificing an animal's life to save a human being's life, but

as

> you point out, this was and is definitely 'kosher' in Torah

ethics.

> Today, perhaps, we have methods that require less sacrifice from

> animals. However, I would be hesitant to dismiss this one

> application to judge Talmudic or Greco-Arabic medicine as a whole,

or

> individuals such as Yehuda who are studying and trying to apply

these

> systems.

>

>

> On Mar 23, 2007, at 2:19 PM, anne.crowley wrote:

>

> > Okay, I was trying to stay out of this because what I know of

> > Yehuda, he seems to be a very kind and caring person. However, I

do

> > have trouble with the dove sacrifice as I guess Tom does. I just

> > read the first post for interest and then did not read the rest,

> > because I would have real trouble doing this. However it is in

> > Yehuda's tradition and it is all over the Bible and other

> > historical references about animal sacrifice; so some traditions

> > and cultures can accept this more readily.

> >

> > I personally don't see it as the same as Chinese medicine where

the

> > body is called upon to balance itself, or plants are sacrificed

for

> > herbal remedies.

> >

> > With my due respect to Yehuda and others,

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > Maybe we could take an acupuncture approach to this topic: we

all

> > know that

> > > there are points which neatly fit into the doctrinal theory of

> > chinese medicine,

> > > and that there are other points, usually called " experience

> > points " , that have

> > > little or no theoretical backing. In other words, they are

often

> > used in a more

> > > formulaic way than the regular channel points.

> > > Herbals, and other treatments are like this. Many fall into a

> > theoretical

> > > frame, and some don't. For those of us familiar with folk

> > practices, there do

> > > seem to be many proven and relied upon treatments which have

no

> > massive

> > > theretical foundation behind (if any at all) - they are simply

> > used because they

> > > work in such and such a situation.

> > > This means that while there may not be a differential

diagnosis,

> > there should

> > > be indications and contraindications for the use of this

> > " experiential " therapy.

> > > If the therapy mentioned by Yehuda can be said to fulfill the

> > above, then it can

> > > qualify as chinese medicine.

> > > Thoughts?

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > >

> > > cameronhollister <cameronhollister

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Friday, 23 March, 2007 2:48:14 PM

> > > Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yehuda

> > >

> > > Point taken. But what is the differential diagnosis for pidgeon

> > >

> > > anus?

> > >

> > > Most respectfully yours,

> > >

> > > Cameron

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

> > >

> > > frischman <@ .> wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > Your question is valid. I think that there is a difference:

The

> > >

> > > essence of Chinese medicinal practice is to pursue balance. The

> > >

> > > essence of Western medical practice is to address and attack

> > >

> > > symptoms. If other healing methods and traditions promote this

> > >

> > > balance and are utilitzed within the framework of Chinese

> > >

> > > methodology, then I see no contradiction. If however, a shotgun

> > >

> > > approach of " try this, this and this, because it's good for this

> > >

> > > condition or people with this disease " is presented, this I

feel is

> > >

> > > not consistant. Thus the distinction.

> > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > > cameronhollister <cameronhollister@ ...> wrote: --- In

> > >

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

> > >

> > > > frischman <@> wrote:

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > Dear Joe,

> > >

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > Yehuda,

> > >

> > > > With all respect, I for one could do without the pidgeon anus

> > >

> > > > thread, which certainly does not conform to your own criteria

for

> > >

> > > > inclusion in this site.

> > >

> > > > Peace,

> > >

> > > > Cameron

> >

> >

> > Recent Activity

> > 11

> > New Members

> > 3

> > New Photos

> > Visit Your Group

> >

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

Respectfully, my e-mail had no references to the kosher stature

of animals, and when discussing ethics of animal slaughter for

medicines, sometimes references to traditional sources is necessary,

in my opinion.

 

 

On Mar 23, 2007, at 4:08 PM, wrote:

 

> Hi all,

>

> Can we leave religion out of email messages please. References to the

> bible or something that is kosher doesn't serve the purpose of this

> group and makes the fluidity murker.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

 

Your previous sentence: " We debate the ethics of sacrificing an

animal's life to save a human being's life, but as you point out,

this was and is definitely 'kosher' in Torah ethics " was religious as

the two words " kosher " and " Torah " are references to the Jewish

religion.

 

Please keep it out of emails.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Attilio,

> Respectfully, my e-mail had no references to the kosher

stature

> of animals, and when discussing ethics of animal slaughter for

> medicines, sometimes references to traditional sources is

necessary,

> in my opinion.

>

>

> On Mar 23, 2007, at 4:08 PM, wrote:

>

> > Hi all,

> >

> > Can we leave religion out of email messages please. References to

the

> > bible or something that is kosher doesn't serve the purpose of

this

> > group and makes the fluidity murker.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear TCM forum Participants, Please pardon my ignorance. I am here to learn from

these postings as much as anything. As an experienced herbalist I thought

perhaps I could add something that was of some use. From my perspective medicine

is a tool as well as a method of treating illness, generally creating a better

balance in the body, hopefully producing some degree of healing and perhaps even

a cure for those affected. I offered my two cents worth in the spirit of good

will and with positive intentions. Sorry for taking up space and time. I shall

just read from now on as I am NOT a Doctor or practitioner.

Good luck to you all with your treatments and patients.

Respectfully, Joe Carrot.

 

 

 

cameronhollister <cameronhollister

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, March 24, 2007 7:20:09 AM

Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

 

Yehuda,

My point, which was never a question, was to hold you to the same

standard you held Joe. Either we allow these extraordinary

experiences or not. I am for it.

Some things work because they work, some simply by

Faith. But I was not sarcastic, rather serious and in earnest.

Respectfully yours,

Cameron

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

frischman <@.. .> wrote:

>

> Dear Joe,

>

> I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

diagnosis and treatment techniques. I, myself, have for decades

been drawn to different methods and forms of natural healing and

medicine, but specifically chose to study and later practice TCM

because I love the fact that it views each individual with

specificity, and by determining whether the person's condition is

replete or vacuitous, hot or cold, internal or external, and Yin and

yang, by determining the differential diagnosis based upon the

relationship of the organs, and based upon so much more, we are able

to see how the patient is out of balance, and what needs to be done

INDIVIDUALLY to put them in balance. When I read your response, I

felt that you were taking the approach of a nutritionist in a

healthfood store or perhaps a naturopathic physician.

> Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

>

>

>

>

>

> Joyce <joyces wrote:

> Joe:

>

> Why the Essiac? I have heard that those with cancer are drinking

this tea but I'm not really sure what's in it. What are your

thoughts on GSE (grapefruit seed extract) as well?

>

> Joyce

>

> -

> Joe Carrot

>

> Monday, March 19, 2007 1:17 PM

> Re: Challenging patient-numerous issues

>

> I would encourage her to Together these remedies could make a

significant difference in her quality of life.

>

>

> natdoc48 <natdoc48@.. .>

>

> Monday, March 19, 2007 11:20:21 AM

> Challenging patient-numerous issues

>

> I am hoping to get some help here. I have been treating a patient

for

> about a year with acupuncture, herbs, and prior to that,

naturopathy.

> She came to me originally in Feb 06 with complaints of tension HAs,

> fibromyalgia, digestive complaints, insomnia, hot flashes and leg

pain.

> Some of the digestive complaints cleared up with diet changes. The

> headaches persisted (mostly occipital, in a T-zone across the upper

> back and neck).

> She is on Buspar for anxiety, Fiorinal/Fioracet for headaches,

Xantac

> sometimes for reflux. She has a history of UTI's that were severe

> many years ago when living in Arizona and had been under control

for

> about the last 7 years. They started up again in April 06. (she

moved

> " back " to Wisconsin in 04). She has had exploratory surgery in the

> fall that revealed inflammation. She stopped going into the hot tub

> at her complex at my suggestion and all was well until last week,

when

> she came down with another UTI. A culture revealed E.Coli as it has

> in the past.

> Her mother passed away this past year, resulting in grief and added

> stress during her mother's last days/weeks (it was her mother and

> father's declining health that prompted the move to WI. Her father

> died in 04). She also received a promotion in her job, which she

> " loves " but has added much stress.

> She is petit and has lost weight of late. Originally she was not

> concerned, and actually happy about the weight loss, but now

expresses

> some concern that she is becoming too thin.

>

> Her tongue is pale purple, swollen and typically damp, with a light

> coat. She has a deep crevice in the center of her tongue that today

> was heavily coated in a cream color.

> Her pulses are usually wiry in the R middle position and deficient

in

> the L middle position. KD pulses are typically thin and deficient.

>

> The reason I am writing is: today she came in and recapped her week

> this week, which included some severe chest pains and a feeling of

> disorientation which prompted a visit to her WM clinic. Testing

ruled

> out any heart related issues. A chest x-rays showed a small shadow

in

> one of her lungs which has now been referred to a pulmonologist.

(her

> mother had emphysema). She is recovering from wind-cold/wind- heat

> following a recent business trip to FL. (so common here for

everyone

> going to a warm climate during the winter to get sick on re-

entry).

> She was given antibiotics for the UTI at the clinic. Because of the

> UTI sx at her visit last week, I did not moxa her abdominally as I

> have been to help with her digestive complaints. The digestive

> complaints (gas and bloating) have been gone since we have started

the

> salt and moxa at CV8 about 6 weeks ago, but digressed with the

trip to

> FL and now are much worse with the antibiotics.

>

> She is wondering if acupuncture and chinese medicine are helping at

> all after a year of almost weekly treatments. I hear what she is

> saying and I wonder and I wonder how I could be doing this

> differently. As I look over her chart, and as I explained to her I

> keep trying to put out fires. Each week, something else is

squeeking

> more loudly to be treated...many times it is the head aches and

upper

> back aches and fatigue. The fatigue is aggravated, I am sure by the

> caffeine laden Fioracet, sometimes taking 7-9 per week. Sometimes

it

> is digestion. Sometimes emotional complaints (she had also asked at

> one point that I just do front treatments cos she " gets so much

from

> the front treatments emotionally " and not enough pain relief from

the

> back tx to give up the front tx). Sometimes hot flashes. Sometimes

UTIs.

>

> I know I am missing some important information and I know I have

> written alot here already. Please let me know if you have questions

> about what I have written and what I may have done re: treatment.

>

> I am sure I don't always focus on the root, and as I said, instead

go

> chasing after fires. I was also taught about the importance of

> treating what the person says is the main complaint.

> I certainly see spleen qi deficiency with kidney yin deficiency

> (absence of KD pulses, presence of hot flashes), blood deficiency

(due

> to spleen qi deficiency).

>

> I recognize that I am a novice (in practice a year and a half) and

I

> am very interested in learning from your experience. BTW, I use

> patents from Nuherbs, Mayway, and a few from Golden Flower.

>

> Thanks for listening.

> Meredith

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

>

>

> http://mail.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

 

Don't take it so personally. It's part and parcel of an active,

engaging forum. It's more like a debate forum than anything else.

 

I remember when i first started this forum, i took a lot of flack

from some more senior members over some of my early posts.

 

We all get it once in a while.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Joe Carrot

<anthillfarmer wrote:

>

> Dear TCM forum Participants, Please pardon my ignorance. I am here

to learn from these postings as much as anything. As an experienced

herbalist I thought perhaps I could add something that was of some

use. From my perspective medicine is a tool as well as a method of

treating illness, generally creating a better balance in the body,

hopefully producing some degree of healing and perhaps even a cure

for those affected. I offered my two cents worth in the spirit of

good will and with positive intentions. Sorry for taking up space and

time. I shall just read from now on as I am NOT a Doctor or Chinese

Medicine practitioner. Good luck to you all with your treatments and

patients.

> Respectfully, Joe Carrot.

>

>

>

> cameronhollister <cameronhollister

> Chinese Medicine

> Saturday, March 24, 2007 7:20:09 AM

> Re: Regarding responses to Meredith's thread

>

> Yehuda,

> My point, which was never a question, was to hold you to the same

> standard you held Joe. Either we allow these extraordinary

> experiences or not. I am for it.

> Some things work because they work, some simply by

> Faith. But I was not sarcastic, rather serious and in earnest.

> Respectfully yours,

> Cameron

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda

> frischman <@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Joe,

> >

> > I am quite concerned by your response. We on this site are

> practicing Traditional Chinese medicine, utilitizing its theory,

> diagnosis and treatment techniques. I, myself, have for decades

> been drawn to different methods and forms of natural healing and

> medicine, but specifically chose to study and later practice TCM

> because I love the fact that it views each individual with

> specificity, and by determining whether the person's condition is

> replete or vacuitous, hot or cold, internal or external, and Yin

and

> yang, by determining the differential diagnosis based upon the

> relationship of the organs, and based upon so much more, we are

able

> to see how the patient is out of balance, and what needs to be done

> INDIVIDUALLY to put them in balance. When I read your response, I

> felt that you were taking the approach of a nutritionist in a

> healthfood store or perhaps a naturopathic physician.

> > Please forgive the harshness of my response, but I was really

> taken aback by a) how you could make such recommendations on a

> Chinese medical site, and b) how your approach was accepted

> essentially without comment. My only goal is to educate, not

> condemn. Please take my comments in that spirit.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Joyce <joyces@> wrote:

> > Joe:

> >

> > Why the Essiac? I have heard that those with cancer are drinking

> this tea but I'm not really sure what's in it. What are your

> thoughts on GSE (grapefruit seed extract) as well?

> >

> > Joyce

> >

> > -

> > Joe Carrot

> >

> > Monday, March 19, 2007 1:17 PM

> > Re: Challenging patient-numerous issues

> >

> > I would encourage her to Together these remedies could make a

> significant difference in her quality of life.

> >

> >

> > natdoc48 <natdoc48@ .>

> >

> > Monday, March 19, 2007 11:20:21 AM

> > Challenging patient-numerous issues

> >

> > I am hoping to get some help here. I have been treating a patient

> for

> > about a year with acupuncture, herbs, and prior to that,

> naturopathy.

> > She came to me originally in Feb 06 with complaints of tension

HAs,

> > fibromyalgia, digestive complaints, insomnia, hot flashes and leg

> pain.

> > Some of the digestive complaints cleared up with diet changes. The

> > headaches persisted (mostly occipital, in a T-zone across the

upper

> > back and neck).

> > She is on Buspar for anxiety, Fiorinal/Fioracet for headaches,

> Xantac

> > sometimes for reflux. She has a history of UTI's that were severe

> > many years ago when living in Arizona and had been under control

> for

> > about the last 7 years. They started up again in April 06. (she

> moved

> > " back " to Wisconsin in 04). She has had exploratory surgery in the

> > fall that revealed inflammation. She stopped going into the hot

tub

> > at her complex at my suggestion and all was well until last week,

> when

> > she came down with another UTI. A culture revealed E.Coli as it

has

> > in the past.

> > Her mother passed away this past year, resulting in grief and

added

> > stress during her mother's last days/weeks (it was her mother and

> > father's declining health that prompted the move to WI. Her father

> > died in 04). She also received a promotion in her job, which she

> > " loves " but has added much stress.

> > She is petit and has lost weight of late. Originally she was not

> > concerned, and actually happy about the weight loss, but now

> expresses

> > some concern that she is becoming too thin.

> >

> > Her tongue is pale purple, swollen and typically damp, with a

light

> > coat. She has a deep crevice in the center of her tongue that

today

> > was heavily coated in a cream color.

> > Her pulses are usually wiry in the R middle position and

deficient

> in

> > the L middle position. KD pulses are typically thin and deficient.

> >

> > The reason I am writing is: today she came in and recapped her

week

> > this week, which included some severe chest pains and a feeling of

> > disorientation which prompted a visit to her WM clinic. Testing

> ruled

> > out any heart related issues. A chest x-rays showed a small

shadow

> in

> > one of her lungs which has now been referred to a pulmonologist.

> (her

> > mother had emphysema). She is recovering from wind-cold/wind- heat

> > following a recent business trip to FL. (so common here for

> everyone

> > going to a warm climate during the winter to get sick on re-

> entry).

> > She was given antibiotics for the UTI at the clinic. Because of

the

> > UTI sx at her visit last week, I did not moxa her abdominally as I

> > have been to help with her digestive complaints. The digestive

> > complaints (gas and bloating) have been gone since we have

started

> the

> > salt and moxa at CV8 about 6 weeks ago, but digressed with the

> trip to

> > FL and now are much worse with the antibiotics.

> >

> > She is wondering if acupuncture and chinese medicine are helping

at

> > all after a year of almost weekly treatments. I hear what she is

> > saying and I wonder and I wonder how I could be doing this

> > differently. As I look over her chart, and as I explained to her I

> > keep trying to put out fires. Each week, something else is

> squeeking

> > more loudly to be treated...many times it is the head aches and

> upper

> > back aches and fatigue. The fatigue is aggravated, I am sure by

the

> > caffeine laden Fioracet, sometimes taking 7-9 per week. Sometimes

> it

> > is digestion. Sometimes emotional complaints (she had also asked

at

> > one point that I just do front treatments cos she " gets so much

> from

> > the front treatments emotionally " and not enough pain relief from

> the

> > back tx to give up the front tx). Sometimes hot flashes.

Sometimes

> UTIs.

> >

> > I know I am missing some important information and I know I have

> > written alot here already. Please let me know if you have

questions

> > about what I have written and what I may have done re: treatment.

> >

> > I am sure I don't always focus on the root, and as I said,

instead

> go

> > chasing after fires. I was also taught about the importance of

> > treating what the person says is the main complaint.

> > I certainly see spleen qi deficiency with kidney yin deficiency

> > (absence of KD pulses, presence of hot flashes), blood deficiency

> (due

> > to spleen qi deficiency).

> >

> > I recognize that I am a novice (in practice a year and a half)

and

> I

> > am very interested in learning from your experience. BTW, I use

> > patents from Nuherbs, Mayway, and a few from Golden Flower.

> >

> > Thanks for listening.

> > Meredith

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

> >

> >

> > http://mail.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Regarding grapefruit seed extract, its antibacterial activity is likely due to

the toxic preservatives in it. The extract without preservatives had no

antibacterial activity when tested in a lab:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=R\

etrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=10399191

 

- Bill Schoenbart

...........................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

 

 

>>>>What are your thoughts on GSE (grapefruit seed extract) as well?>>>>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe, I'm not sure that that's what the group would expect of you.

Hugo

 

Joe Carrot:

Sorry for taking up space and time. I shall just read from now on

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________

New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at

the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://mail..net/uk