Community acupuncture - FYI side issue pre-paid plans

[Guest guest]

Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:42:15 0000, " zedbowls " <zaranski

>> Over the last four weeks we have returned

pre-paid funds to two individuals who had

committed to corrective care treatment plans but who could not keep-up on…

 

There may be issues with pre-paid plans in some

locales and situations. There was a case in

Southern California, 15 years ago or so, where a

clinic booked patients on the basis of pre-paid

commitments, on the order of $1000 and more, and

ran afoul of the law or regulatory agencies. I'm

not sure it wasn't maybe requiring pre-payment,

or maybe an unwillingness to refund that made it problematic.

 

I would just caution to check out state

regulations and possibly business laws before using this kind of model.

 

That case was somewhat infamous also in that it

was a small chain of clinics, where poorly paid

newly licensed practitioners were hired to do

most of the work. (I heard about it from someone who worked there.)

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release 3/17/2007 12:33

PM

[Guest guest]

I attended an insurance billing seminar (for practitioners) 3 years ago and

learned that providing pre-paid plans is considered " selling/offering

insurance without a license " . There are some who practice near me in

Washington who refuse to believe that it's illegal and they keep offering

it, even advertising it. I cringe every time I come across a flyer..

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Chris

Macie

Monday, March 19, 2007 2:03 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Community acupuncture - FYI side issue pre-paid plans

 

 

 

Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:42:15 0000, " zedbowls " <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT)

<zaranski%40verizon.net> net>

>> Over the last four weeks we have returned

pre-paid funds to two individuals who had

committed to corrective care treatment plans but who could not keep-up on.

 

There may be issues with pre-paid plans in some

locales and situations. There was a case in

Southern California, 15 years ago or so, where a

clinic booked patients on the basis of pre-paid

commitments, on the order of $1000 and more, and

ran afoul of the law or regulatory agencies. I'm

not sure it wasn't maybe requiring pre-payment,

or maybe an unwillingness to refund that made it problematic.

 

I would just caution to check out state

regulations and possibly business laws before using this kind of model.

 

That case was somewhat infamous also in that it

was a small chain of clinics, where poorly paid

newly licensed practitioners were hired to do

most of the work. (I heard about it from someone who worked there.)

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release 3/17/2007

12:33 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> " Barbara Beale " <bbeale wrote:

> I attended an insurance billing seminar (for practitioners) 3 years

ago and

> learned that providing pre-paid plans is

considered " selling/offering

> insurance without a license " . There are some who practice near me

in

> Washington who refuse to believe that it's illegal and they keep

offering

> it, even advertising it. I cringe every time I come across a

flyer..

 

 

 

Wow, Insurance guys protecting their turf! What a concept! Did they

produce legal references backing their claims? Or did they simply

use the bully approach?

 

When we first considered allowing clients to get the money issue

taken care of (by allowing them to pay for their entire corrective

treatment plan in advance, saving ME lots of bookkeeping time, saving

themselves at least 6-8 minutes EVERY visit, allowing them to

solidify their committment to changing their health, guaranteeing

them that the care they need will be there for them), I called our

State's Attorney General's office to ask if there was even the

slightest legal or buisness practice PROBLEM with clients prepaying

for health services. I received three responses from three different

govenment officials, each stated that there was nothing in State

statuates, guidelines or court records restricting, limiting or

prohibiting the sale of prepaid services by licensed healthcare

providers. By the way, I do offer them " bookkeeping savings " for

prepayments based on the time they save me (time I can spend helping

more people, playing with my kids & dogs, helping with homework,

moving forward on house remodeling projects), and this too was

approved by the powers that be at the State level.

 

Insurance is not about prepaid treatments. Insurance is wagering,

pure and simple.

 

When you buy insurance, you are placing a bet with a registered

bookie. Lets take term life insurance that covers you thru age 60,

having benefits of $100,000. You " buy " either in a single payment or

with payments this " coverage " . What you have actually done is place

a bet that you are going to expire before the term of the plan

expires. The insurance company accepts your bet, they are betting

that the plan will expire before YOU do.

 

NOTE WELL: you are placing a bet you hope to lose! Note also: the

insurance company KNOWS the odds and, just like the casino, they know

that overall THEY will end-up the big winners. Additionally, they

HATE to pay out on the occassions when they DO lose the bet. They

are in the business of collecting premiums, NOT of writing settlement

checks.

 

Some clients occasionally ask me " Don't you wish that people's

insurance covered the services you provide so that more people would

feel they could seek your help for their health problems? "

 

To this I ALWAYS explain that I have no desire to bill insurance

companies on behalf of our clients for several reasons: 1) every

alternative health care provider I know who DOES employs someone

who's only focus is just that (and they do nothing that directly and

positively affects the health of the clients), 2) insurance companys

are notorious for deciding what and how much will be covered

essentially directing the course of treatment for clients (and I ask

them " Who do you want in charge of your health care? the Insurance

company who's sole interest is their bottom line? or your TCM

practitioner who's concern for your health restoration and concern

for their own reputation are mutually alligned goals?), 3) everyone I

know who does bill insurance regularly has claims denied and has to

accept non-payment for services provided, or has to chase the client

for moneys THEY were sure they would not have to pay (and who may

have elected to forego the threatments had they known they would have

to pay out of pocket).

 

It is not uncommon for corrective treatment plans to exceed 40

treatments (some approaching 80 treatments), span more than 8 months

(even up to 18 months), include several hundreds of dollars in

anticipated herbal product needs, and total in excess of $2500 (some

considerably more).

 

Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is no

more buying insurance from someone without a license than is buying a

card good for 20 carwahes you haven't used yet.

 

We also allow clients to prepay for maintenance and wellness

treatments (for health optimization) once they have completed their

corrective treatment plans

 

We also help clients create a " home herbal pharmacy " complete with

instructions of when to use each item (and when to seek qualified

help). Included are usually various

chinese herbal, folk-medicine and homeopathic " remedies " for many

common ailments including cold/cough, flu, sinus, sore throat, diaper

rash, indigestion, diarhea, 1st degree burns, etc.

 

Mark Zaranski

East Wind Acupuncture, Inc.

Chesterton, Indiana

 

We have 7 treatment rooms on two levels, 15 client-parking spaces,

two acupuncturists, two acupuncture assistants, a front desk, and a

case manager. We provide (present average) about 125 treatments per

week (mon-thurs) and have an overall average of 20 visits per client

(includes EVERY person treated, even those who only get one

treatment). In 2006 we saw a total of 295 people for initial

consultations and 251 were accepted for treatment. 130 of them

subsequently elected to persue corrective treatments plans.

Many of the remainder stayed in treatment to the point of complete

relief from their symptoms. Some, in persuit of the magic bullet,

were dissatisfied to find that one acupuncture treatment did not

completely erase their condition (usually after they have spent years

or decades trying everything else first, often giving those other

therapies months or years to produce unsatisfactory results) and

never returned for follow-up treatments. In the first two months of

2007 we treated for the first time 73 new clients, and we expect we

may approach 500 total new clients for the year. We may be searching

for another practioner (TCM, freehand needlers--tube needlers need

not apply) during this calendar year.

 

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Chris

> Macie

> Monday, March 19, 2007 2:03 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Community acupuncture - FYI side issue pre-paid

plans

>

>

>

> Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:42:15 0000, " zedbowls " <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT)

> <zaranski%40verizon.net> net>

> >> Over the last four weeks we have returned

> pre-paid funds to two individuals who had

> committed to corrective care treatment plans but who could not keep-

up on.

>

> There may be issues with pre-paid plans in some

> locales and situations. There was a case in

> Southern California, 15 years ago or so, where a

> clinic booked patients on the basis of pre-paid

> commitments, on the order of $1000 and more, and

> ran afoul of the law or regulatory agencies. I'm

> not sure it wasn't maybe requiring pre-payment,

> or maybe an unwillingness to refund that made it problematic.

>

> I would just caution to check out state

> regulations and possibly business laws before using this kind of

model.

>

> That case was somewhat infamous also in that it

> was a small chain of clinics, where poorly paid

> newly licensed practitioners were hired to do

> most of the work. (I heard about it from someone who worked there.)

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release Date:

3/17/2007

> 12:33 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

YOU ARE MY NEW UNSUNG HERO. THANKS 4 TAKING TIME OUT TO WRITE FACTS CLEARLY +

WITH INTELLIGENCE +HUMOR, ALBEIT SARCASTIC...I LOVE YOU!

 

zedbowls <zaranski wrote:

> " Barbara Beale " <bbeale wrote:

> I attended an insurance billing seminar (for practitioners) 3 years

ago and

> learned that providing pre-paid plans is

considered " selling/offering

> insurance without a license " . There are some who practice near me

in

> Washington who refuse to believe that it's illegal and they keep

offering

> it, even advertising it. I cringe every time I come across a

flyer..

 

Wow, Insurance guys protecting their turf! What a concept! Did they

produce legal references backing their claims? Or did they simply

use the bully approach?

 

When we first considered allowing clients to get the money issue

taken care of (by allowing them to pay for their entire corrective

treatment plan in advance, saving ME lots of bookkeeping time, saving

themselves at least 6-8 minutes EVERY visit, allowing them to

solidify their committment to changing their health, guaranteeing

them that the care they need will be there for them), I called our

State's Attorney General's office to ask if there was even the

slightest legal or buisness practice PROBLEM with clients prepaying

for health services. I received three responses from three different

govenment officials, each stated that there was nothing in State

statuates, guidelines or court records restricting, limiting or

prohibiting the sale of prepaid services by licensed healthcare

providers. By the way, I do offer them " bookkeeping savings " for

prepayments based on the time they save me (time I can spend helping

more people, playing with my kids & dogs, helping with homework,

moving forward on house remodeling projects), and this too was

approved by the powers that be at the State level.

 

Insurance is not about prepaid treatments. Insurance is wagering,

pure and simple.

 

When you buy insurance, you are placing a bet with a registered

bookie. Lets take term life insurance that covers you thru age 60,

having benefits of $100,000. You " buy " either in a single payment or

with payments this " coverage " . What you have actually done is place

a bet that you are going to expire before the term of the plan

expires. The insurance company accepts your bet, they are betting

that the plan will expire before YOU do.

 

NOTE WELL: you are placing a bet you hope to lose! Note also: the

insurance company KNOWS the odds and, just like the casino, they know

that overall THEY will end-up the big winners. Additionally, they

HATE to pay out on the occassions when they DO lose the bet. They

are in the business of collecting premiums, NOT of writing settlement

checks.

 

Some clients occasionally ask me " Don't you wish that people's

insurance covered the services you provide so that more people would

feel they could seek your help for their health problems? "

 

To this I ALWAYS explain that I have no desire to bill insurance

companies on behalf of our clients for several reasons: 1) every

alternative health care provider I know who DOES employs someone

who's only focus is just that (and they do nothing that directly and

positively affects the health of the clients), 2) insurance companys

are notorious for deciding what and how much will be covered

essentially directing the course of treatment for clients (and I ask

them " Who do you want in charge of your health care? the Insurance

company who's sole interest is their bottom line? or your TCM

practitioner who's concern for your health restoration and concern

for their own reputation are mutually alligned goals?), 3) everyone I

know who does bill insurance regularly has claims denied and has to

accept non-payment for services provided, or has to chase the client

for moneys THEY were sure they would not have to pay (and who may

have elected to forego the threatments had they known they would have

to pay out of pocket).

 

It is not uncommon for corrective treatment plans to exceed 40

treatments (some approaching 80 treatments), span more than 8 months

(even up to 18 months), include several hundreds of dollars in

anticipated herbal product needs, and total in excess of $2500 (some

considerably more).

 

Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is no

more buying insurance from someone without a license than is buying a

card good for 20 carwahes you haven't used yet.

 

We also allow clients to prepay for maintenance and wellness

treatments (for health optimization) once they have completed their

corrective treatment plans

 

We also help clients create a " home herbal pharmacy " complete with

instructions of when to use each item (and when to seek qualified

help). Included are usually various

chinese herbal, folk-medicine and homeopathic " remedies " for many

common ailments including cold/cough, flu, sinus, sore throat, diaper

rash, indigestion, diarhea, 1st degree burns, etc.

 

Mark Zaranski

East Wind Acupuncture, Inc.

Chesterton, Indiana

 

We have 7 treatment rooms on two levels, 15 client-parking spaces,

two acupuncturists, two acupuncture assistants, a front desk, and a

case manager. We provide (present average) about 125 treatments per

week (mon-thurs) and have an overall average of 20 visits per client

(includes EVERY person treated, even those who only get one

treatment). In 2006 we saw a total of 295 people for initial

consultations and 251 were accepted for treatment. 130 of them

subsequently elected to persue corrective treatments plans.

Many of the remainder stayed in treatment to the point of complete

relief from their symptoms. Some, in persuit of the magic bullet,

were dissatisfied to find that one acupuncture treatment did not

completely erase their condition (usually after they have spent years

or decades trying everything else first, often giving those other

therapies months or years to produce unsatisfactory results) and

never returned for follow-up treatments. In the first two months of

2007 we treated for the first time 73 new clients, and we expect we

may approach 500 total new clients for the year. We may be searching

for another practioner (TCM, freehand needlers--tube needlers need

not apply) during this calendar year.

 

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

Chris

> Macie

> Monday, March 19, 2007 2:03 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Community acupuncture - FYI side issue pre-paid

plans

>

>

>

> Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:42:15 0000, " zedbowls " <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT)

> <zaranski%40verizon.net> net>

> >> Over the last four weeks we have returned

> pre-paid funds to two individuals who had

> committed to corrective care treatment plans but who could not keep-

up on.

>

> There may be issues with pre-paid plans in some

> locales and situations. There was a case in

> Southern California, 15 years ago or so, where a

> clinic booked patients on the basis of pre-paid

> commitments, on the order of $1000 and more, and

> ran afoul of the law or regulatory agencies. I'm

> not sure it wasn't maybe requiring pre-payment,

> or maybe an unwillingness to refund that made it problematic.

>

> I would just caution to check out state

> regulations and possibly business laws before using this kind of

model.

>

> That case was somewhat infamous also in that it

> was a small chain of clinics, where poorly paid

> newly licensed practitioners were hired to do

> most of the work. (I heard about it from someone who worked there.)

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release Date:

3/17/2007

> 12:33 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mark,

 

" Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is no more buying

insurance from someone without a license than is buying a card good for 20

carwahes you haven't used yet. "

 

Actually you are wrong but it depends upon your state's insurance commissioner

to prosecute. You might want to check out the NAIC (National Association of

Insurance Commissioners) report on prepaid health plans as being the act of

insurance. Insurance is about accepting a risk, which is what you are doing

when you accept extra money for a future patient loss. Medicine (yes we

practice

medicine) in this country has never conducted itself with prepayments, it has

always been at time of service or later. Insurance accepts loss.

 

You will be hard pressed to prove that all patients need the same amount of

prepaid

care or for that matter that they need the amount that you are selling them.Mike

W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

_______________

Live Search Maps – find all the local information you need, right when you need

it.

http://maps.live.com/?icid=wlmtag2 & FOR M=MGAC01

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well Mark, I studied business for a while, worked in the industry and then

taught it; and one thing I always came away with is that the goal of the

corporation was to maximize the wealth of the shareholders - period.

 

So in the insurance business, yes we play Pascal Wager theory with them, they

hire well trained actuaries, we are betting against our own immortality.

I do think the insurance business is doing great these days - because it is a

business based on fear. We saw national elections decided because of a fear

factor. Even when I insure my home applicances, I feel like I'm contributiing

to this. I'm still a slave to car insurance, home applicance insurance, ipods -

so long term care, name it.

 

Okay, so that said about insurance. Does it have it's benefits> I think so.

If one does go into the hospital for any procedure, that can break you

financially - unless you already have nothing - then there is emergency room

service or Medicaid.

 

Getting to a few questions:

 

I had considered taking insurance because it seems so much money is wasted. The

client spends $400 a month on insurance premiums - that protect against the

medical emergencies and possibly acupunture. Then when I don' take insurance,

they pay a deductible of 300 or 400 and insurance co pays 70% ot bill (not

always). The client would have paid $15 or $30 otherwise.

I did meet some practitioners out my school recently who started taking BC BS.

They each have 30 or 35 patients a week. They say they get reimburse fairlly

well. One has an office assitant, the other doesn't.

I don't think either one of them, including me, wants a business a large as

yours.

 

I think taking insurance does help the cliient, who otherwise would not have

gottten treatment.

My rates are on the high side, so I feel I have some flexibilty in discounting

when needed. If I took insurance that flexibiltiy would probably go away.

 

 

You said some clients were not accepted. Do you reject them if they don't do

the prepays. Will you still work with people that want to book a few

treatments, and then see, and book further?

I get a lot of long term clients, I guess because I view it that way. In the

Five Element world, we think in terms of treatment for life - for ourselves and

others if they want to go to that level.

 

 

Anne

 

P.S. The legality of the prepays varies by state. Yes the state insurance

commissioner has something to do with it. In MD it is accceptable for health

care people to accept prepays; there must be an agreement that you will refund

for all services not provided - that the client no longer wants. Sorry, the

upfront money we give to our personal trainer is lost if we don't show up.

 

 

 

When you buy insurance, you are placing a bet with a registered

> bookie. Lets take term life insurance that covers you thru age 60,

> having benefits of $100,000. You " buy " either in a single payment or

> with payments this " coverage " . What you have actually done is place

> a bet that you are going to expire before the term of the plan

> expires. The insurance company accepts your bet, they are betting

> that the plan will expire before YOU do.

>

> NOTE WELL: you are placing a bet you hope to lose! Note also: the

> insurance company KNOWS the odds and, just like the casino, they know

> that overall THEY will end-up the big winners. Additionally, they

> HATE to pay out on the occassions when they DO lose the bet. They

> are in the business of collecting premiums, NOT of writing settlement

> checks.

>

> Some clients occasionally ask me " Don't you wish that people's

> insurance covered the services you provide so that more people would

> feel they could seek your help for their health problems? "

>

> To this I ALWAYS explain that I have no desire to bill insurance

> companies on behalf of our clients for several reasons: 1) every

> alternative health care provider I know who DOES employs someone

> who's only focus is just that (and they do nothing that directly and

> positively affects the health of the clients), 2) insurance companys

> are notorious for deciding what and how much will be covered

> essentially directing the course of treatment for clients (and I ask

> them " Who do you want in charge of your health care? the Insurance

> company who's sole interest is their bottom line? or your TCM

> practitioner who's concern for your health restoration and concern

> for their own reputation are mutually alligned goals?), 3) everyone I

> know who does bill insurance regularly has claims denied and has to

> accept non-payment for services provided, or has to chase the client

> for moneys THEY were sure they would not have to pay (and who may

> have elected to forego the threatments had they known they would have

> to pay out of pocket).

>

> It is not uncommon for corrective treatment plans to exceed 40

> treatments (some approaching 80 treatments), span more than 8 months

> (even up to 18 months), include several hundreds of dollars in

> anticipated herbal product needs, and total in excess of $2500 (some

> considerably more).

>

> Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is no

> more buying insurance from someone without a license than is buying a

> card good for 20 carwahes you haven't used yet.

>

> We also allow clients to prepay for maintenance and wellness

> treatments (for health optimization) once they have completed their

> corrective treatment plans

>

> We also help clients create a " home herbal pharmacy " complete with

> instructions of when to use each item (and when to seek qualified

> help). Included are usually various

> chinese herbal, folk-medicine and homeopathic " remedies " for many

> common ailments including cold/cough, flu, sinus, sore throat, diaper

> rash, indigestion, diarhea, 1st degree burns, etc.

>

> Mark Zaranski

> East Wind Acupuncture, Inc.

> Chesterton, Indiana

>

> We have 7 treatment rooms on two levels, 15 client-parking spaces,

> two acupuncturists, two acupuncture assistants, a front desk, and a

> case manager. We provide (present average) about 125 treatments per

> week (mon-thurs) and have an overall average of 20 visits per client

> (includes EVERY person treated, even those who only get one

> treatment). In 2006 we saw a total of 295 people for initial

> consultations and 251 were accepted for treatment. 130 of them

> subsequently elected to persue corrective treatments plans.

> Many of the remainder stayed in treatment to the point of complete

> relief from their symptoms. Some, in persuit of the magic bullet,

> were dissatisfied to find that one acupuncture treatment did not

> completely erase their condition (usually after they have spent years

> or decades trying everything else first, often giving those other

> therapies months or years to produce unsatisfactory results) and

> never returned for follow-up treatments. In the first two months of

> 2007 we treated for the first time 73 new clients, and we expect we

> may approach 500 total new clients for the year. We may be searching

> for another practioner (TCM, freehand needlers--tube needlers need

> not apply) during this calendar year.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>Mike W. Bowser, L Ac wrote:

>You will be hard pressed to prove that all patients need the same

>amount of prepaid care or for that matter that they need the amount

>that you are selling them. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

There are not two clients with the same size treatment plan. I tried

to give you an idea of the average case.

 

> anne.crowley wrote:

>>

> Well Mark, I studied business for a while, worked in the industry

and then taught it; and one thing I always came away with is that the

goal of the corporation was to maximize the wealth of the

shareholders - period.

>

> So in the insurance business, yes we play Pascal Wager theory with

them, they hire well trained actuaries, we are betting against our

own immortality.

> I do think the insurance business is doing great these days -

because it is a business based on fear. We saw national elections

decided because of a fear factor. Even when I insure my home

applicances, I feel like I'm contributiing to this. I'm still a

slave to car insurance, home applicance insurance, ipods - so long

term care, name it.

 

Anne, The ONE YEAR (2001) that insurance companies actually had to

pay out more than their target caused unbelievable upsets in the

industry that they settled by increasing (in some cases vastly)

premiums on virtually every kind of coverage.

>

> Okay, so that said about insurance. Does it have it's benefits> I

think so. If one does go into the hospital for any procedure, that

can break you financially - unless you already have nothing - then

there is emergency room service or Medicaid.

 

 

My family has NO health insurance. A typical (middle of the road)

health care plan for my family (2 adults @ 48M/40F, 3 kids @

9M/11F/13Myrs, 2 dogs, 1 cat, many amphibians and fish) that DOES NOT

cover dental, vision, etc would run in the neighborhood of

$750/month, or $9000/year. Our actual conventional health care costs

(NOT inc DENTAL, VISION, and VETRENARY) have totalled just under

$5000 for the last 14 years COMBINED, and that includes costs

associated with prenatal care and births of all three kids (born at

home with midwife in attendance). My children have never been

subjected to any vaccines, and between them have had only three sets

of X-rays taken (broken fibula, and two broken collar bones--two of

three are boys), and one round of anti-biotics. That means I have

not wasted about $112,000 on insurance I would not have used.

 

We do spend way more money than the equivalent " average family of 5 "

on what we eat. We consciously seek out the very best sources of

nutrition we can find. Most of what we eat is grown organically on

land that has not been stripped of its mineral content. We are

vegetarians (we do eat eggs, local honey, and while I do not, the

rest do include some organic dairy). We do whatever we can to get

the nutrition we need from our food, we avoid vitamin and mineral

supplements for the most part. Our children are full-sized, healthy

and strong, get top grades and, while it is not a goal of ours, they

regularly bring home attendance awards as they rarely feel less than

GREAT.

 

We do contribute money monthly to a rainyday fund to cover inevitable

specifically unforseen expenses: replacing the well pump, septic

system repair, actual conventional medical expenses.

 

With regards to automobile insurance...Our " fleet " of vehicles is

covered with only the lowest reasonable level of PL & PD coverage as

collision/comprehensive coverage for these particular vehicles is not

fiscally worth it. We have a 1999 Chevy Suburban (seats 8 with room

for dogs and toys, can pull almost anything and gets 16-18 mpg on the

road), a 1987 VW transporter(seats 7 with room for dogs and toys and

camping gear, 22 mpg), and a 1982 VW turbodiesel wagon (seats 5 has

room for plenty of stuff OR some stuff and the dogs, gets 40 mpg).

All were bought with cash (house mortgage is the only monthly payment

we have for any purchases). All have ridiculously low bluebook

values, and comp/collision premiums would quickly surpass their

values.

 

I do not suggest that others follow our example, as MOST people are

not in a position to do so. We have access to alternative medical

care that many do not, we drink wonderfully clean and mineral rich

water from our own well, we get plenty of fresh air, sunshine and

exercise, and we avoid ingesting the crap most people eat and drink

that makes and keeps them ill.

 

>

> Getting to a few questions:

>

> I had considered taking insurance because it seems so much money is

wasted. The client spends $400 a month on insurance premiums - that

protect against the medical emergencies and possibly acupunture.

Then when I don' take insurance, they pay a deductible of 300 or 400

and insurance co pays 70% ot bill (not always). The client would

have paid $15 or $30 otherwise.

> I did meet some practitioners out my school recently who started

taking BC BS. They each have 30 or 35 patients a week. They say

they get reimburse fairlly well. One has an office assitant, the

other doesn't.

> I don't think either one of them, including me, wants a business a

large as yours.

 

Our purpose is to spread to as many people as possible knowlege of

the power of TCM to unlock the body's ability to heal, repair and

maintain itself without drugs and unnecessary surgeries. We have

grown to where we are now without ANY advertising, simply by word of

mouth from those we have helped. Most who find us are fed-up with

feeling poorly even tho they do everything their doctors tell them to

do. We have grown because every person we help sends two or ten

family members, loved ones, co-workers and neighbors to us.

 

>

> I think taking insurance does help the cliient, who otherwise would

not have gottten treatment.

> My rates are on the high side, so I feel I have some flexibilty in

discounting when needed. If I took insurance that flexibiltiy would

probably go away.

>

We provide documents that help our clients file for reimbursement

from their insurance companies, but we DO NOT file for them or accept

payment from their insurance companies (except in rare occasional

direct pay circumstances from a specific insurer for injured people

they send us). I am not against people being reimbursed by their

insurers! We encourage clients to pay with pretax funds from medical

savings accounts or flex plans.

>

> You said some clients were not accepted. Do you reject them if

they don't do the prepays. Will you still work with people that want

to book a few treatments, and then see, and book further?

> I get a lot of long term clients, I guess because I view it that

way. In the Five Element world, we think in terms of treatment for

life - for ourselves and others if they want to go to that level.

>

We are focussed on 100% effectiveness, and you can't get there if you

accept into care people you're pretty sure won't do their part (show

up for treatments, follow dietary reccomendations, take their herbs,

stop smoking and other self destructive behaviors) or are not

committed to changing their health (and most often their

lifestyles). Most successful clients at our clinic have life

changing experiences. (for most people who come to us, the way they

were living their lives led to their poor health).

 

Prepays are in no way REQUIRED of our clients. I simply give them

the option when we present them with our reccomendation of treatment

plan for them. Most who continue treatment after an evaluation

period (typically 4-6 treatments with two education sessions),

whether with the goal of reaching their personal full health

potential, CORRECTION of their body's health systems, or mearly

RELIEF from their symptoms, prepay for services to save themselves

time and money. There are those who because of their own cash flow

situations or simply personal preference do pay as they go. We have

three clients right now who are following to the tee their corrective

treatment plans on a payg basis. However, it seems most who PAYG

drift out of treatment somewhere not long after achieving relief.

Two clients who achieved relief (both from intense low back pain) in

2001 (before we instituted our formalized client education program)

have come back in the last few months and are now persuing correction.

 

We are not interested in being a non-hazardous substitute for a pain

pill. Our goal is to restore HEALTH, not just get and keep people on

the non-symptomatic side of the line.

 

When I ask potential clients (virtually anyone with health problems

that concern them) " what does it mean to be 'healthy'? " I often hear

the answer " well, if you're not sick, you're healthy, " to whoch I

reply " OK, then by the same logic, if you're not poor, you must be

wealthy! " After a few moments of consideration, they get the point.

 

Mark Z.

 

>

> Anne

>

> P.S. The legality of the prepays varies by state. Yes the state

insurance commissioner has something to do with it. In MD it is

accceptable for health care people to accept prepays; there must be

an agreement that you will refund for all services not provided -

that the client no longer wants. Sorry, the upfront money we give to

our personal trainer is lost if we don't show up.

>

>

We do sign an agreement with our clients that spells-out how refunds

work (prepaid total minus services used at LIST PRICE equals refund),

and we give prompt refunds for unused prepaid services when requested

for virtually ANY reason, or if we decide to remove someone from our

care (typically for not doing their part). Some who practice

similarly have policys where missed (unrescheduled to stay current

with treatment plan) appointments result in moneys being donated to

charity as a penalty/incentive to be courteous and show-up or

reschedule with enough time for someone else to benefit from the open

treatment slot.

 

We run a no-wait clinic and we never overbook (our parking lot

prohbits anything else!), so no shows not only waste OUR time, they

keep others who need treatments from getting them. If a scheduled

client arrives at the clinic on time (at or before their appointment

time and gets their chart filled-out within 3 minutes of that

appointment time) and is not on a treatment table within 8 minutes we

apologize and offer them a free product appropriate for their needs.

If they are not on a table within 15 minutes of their scheduled time

(while having arrived in a timely manner, see above) we gift them

with a certificate for 30 minutes of theraputic or relaxation

massage. If a client is left on a table untreated for 10 minutes (or

longer) they get the massage certificate. If a client has to wait

for accessory techniques for 10 minutes(or longer) after needles are

removed, they get the massage certificate. We have only had to give

out three massage certificates since we instituted this policy at the

beginning of 2005!

 

We have " preferred needling sessions " for those receiving

regular " plan " treatments (just treatments and accessory techniques,

no consults, no re-evaluations, no dietary counselling, some

treatment strategy adjustments based on client's subjective info, but

not too much) wherein all seven rooms are scheduled at 5 minute

intervals followed by a 20 minute break before the next set of 7,

which is followed by a 45 minute break. The sequence is then

repeated with that session ending after the second 14 treatments.

That's 28 treatments completed in about 4 hours.

 

We also have " regular treatment sessions " where all seven treatment

rooms are scheduled at 10 minute intervals with a twenty minute break

between sets. Regular plan clients who have experienced some new

condition (a fall, car wreck, bad illness, etc.) are encouraged to

reschedule themselves out of Preferred " and into " Regular " sessions

if possible so that we can spend more time with them. We do re-

evaluations every 8 threatments and those 8th treatments are

typically scheduled during " regular " sessions, OR they schedule their

re-evaluation separate from their treatment time.

 

New and evaluation clients' treatments are scheduled during separate

sessions or during " regular " sessions if necessary, never

during " Preferred " sessions. Initial consults are rarely scheduled

during preferred sessions.

 

>

> When you buy insurance, you are placing a bet with a registered

> > bookie. Lets take term life insurance that covers you thru age

60,

> > having benefits of $100,000. You " buy " either in a single

payment or

> > with payments this " coverage " . What you have actually done is

place

> > a bet that you are going to expire before the term of the plan

> > expires. The insurance company accepts your bet, they are

betting

> > that the plan will expire before YOU do.

> >

> > NOTE WELL: you are placing a bet you hope to lose! Note also:

the

> > insurance company KNOWS the odds and, just like the casino, they

know

> > that overall THEY will end-up the big winners. Additionally,

they

> > HATE to pay out on the occassions when they DO lose the bet.

They

> > are in the business of collecting premiums, NOT of writing

settlement

> > checks.

> >

> > Some clients occasionally ask me " Don't you wish that people's

> > insurance covered the services you provide so that more people

would

> > feel they could seek your help for their health problems? "

> >

> > To this I ALWAYS explain that I have no desire to bill insurance

> > companies on behalf of our clients for several reasons: 1) every

> > alternative health care provider I know who DOES employs someone

> > who's only focus is just that (and they do nothing that directly

and

> > positively affects the health of the clients), 2) insurance

companys

> > are notorious for deciding what and how much will be covered

> > essentially directing the course of treatment for clients (and I

ask

> > them " Who do you want in charge of your health care? the

Insurance

> > company who's sole interest is their bottom line? or your TCM

> > practitioner who's concern for your health restoration and

concern

> > for their own reputation are mutually alligned goals?), 3)

everyone I

> > know who does bill insurance regularly has claims denied and has

to

> > accept non-payment for services provided, or has to chase the

client

> > for moneys THEY were sure they would not have to pay (and who may

> > have elected to forego the threatments had they known they would

have

> > to pay out of pocket).

> >

> > It is not uncommon for corrective treatment plans to exceed 40

> > treatments (some approaching 80 treatments), span more than 8

months

> > (even up to 18 months), include several hundreds of dollars in

> > anticipated herbal product needs, and total in excess of $2500

(some

> > considerably more).

> >

> > Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is

no

> > more buying insurance from someone without a license than is

buying a

> > card good for 20 carwahes you haven't used yet.

> >

> > We also allow clients to prepay for maintenance and wellness

> > treatments (for health optimization) once they have completed

their

> > corrective treatment plans

> >

> > We also help clients create a " home herbal pharmacy " complete

with

> > instructions of when to use each item (and when to seek qualified

> > help). Included are usually various

> > chinese herbal, folk-medicine and homeopathic " remedies " for many

> > common ailments including cold/cough, flu, sinus, sore throat,

diaper

> > rash, indigestion, diarhea, 1st degree burns, etc.

> >

> > Mark Zaranski

> > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc.

> > Chesterton, Indiana

> >

> > We have 7 treatment rooms on two levels, 15 client-parking

spaces,

> > two acupuncturists, two acupuncture assistants, a front desk, and

a

> > case manager. We provide (present average) about 125 treatments

per

> > week (mon-thurs) and have an overall average of 20 visits per

client

> > (includes EVERY person treated, even those who only get one

> > treatment). In 2006 we saw a total of 295 people for initial

> > consultations and 251 were accepted for treatment. 130 of them

> > subsequently elected to persue corrective treatments plans.

> > Many of the remainder stayed in treatment to the point of

complete

> > relief from their symptoms. Some, in persuit of the magic

bullet,

> > were dissatisfied to find that one acupuncture treatment did not

> > completely erase their condition (usually after they have spent

years

> > or decades trying everything else first, often giving those other

> > therapies months or years to produce unsatisfactory results) and

> > never returned for follow-up treatments. In the first two months

of

> > 2007 we treated for the first time 73 new clients, and we expect

we

> > may approach 500 total new clients for the year. We may be

searching

> > for another practioner (TCM, freehand needlers--tube needlers

need

> > not apply) during this calendar year.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can appreciate the complexity of this issue and that many other things tend

to get in the way or decide our decisions as well. Our intention as providers

does not give us a carte blanche to recreate how healthcare is run in this

country. We sometimes let our hearts and desires get in the way of the

way things need to be structured. I have seen this a lot and yet it seems

that this issue is not adequately dealt with by the schools, associations nor

licensing boards (insurance). Let's deal with these aspects as Mark presented

them:

 

" There are not two clients with the same size treatment plan. I tried to give

you an idea of the average case. "

This issue has no direct connection with whether or not you are conducting

insurance. So lets skip it and go on.

 

" Our purpose is to spread to as many people as possible knowledge of the power

of TCM to unlock the body's ability to heal, repair and maintain itself without

drugs and unnecessary surgeries. "

A noble goal and one that is shared by many on this list but this has nothing

to do with the insurance issues directly as these are more about your own

motivation.

 

" We provide documents that help our clients file for reimbursement from their

insurance companies, but we DO NOT file for them or accept payment from their

insurance companies (except in rare occasional direct pay circumstances from a

specific insurer for injured people they send us). "

As an aside, I hope that you realize that this requires you to be HIPAA

compliant.

 

" Prepays are in no way REQUIRED of our clients. "

This is a non-issue as far as prepay goes. I hope that all will look into this

and take some classes on it and see how it can impact your practice. Remember

this final point, medicine (yes, we practice it) has always been about payment

at the time of services or later but NEVER for future need. We will be judged

by this model, no excuses. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

_______________

It’s tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?\

icid=WLMartagline

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mark,

 

Thanks for your views, which I would like to comment on.

 

" Did they produce legal references backing their claims? "

All states have laws regarding the practice of insurance.

If you are not an HMO or insurance co, how do you plan

to show any legitimate reasons for underwriting a patient?

" Insurance is not about prepaid treatments. "

Partially right. Insurance is about accepting of future loss and receiving

payment for such, which is what you are doing with any

type of prepayment.

 

You find more reliable info with an attorney who specializes in this area.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

_______________

Live Search Maps – find all the local information you need, right when you need

it.

http://maps.live.com/?icid=wlmtag2 & FORM=MGAC01

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow Mark,

 

You have a lot of wood in that operation. It sounds like the David Singer

system. Yes, he has made millionaires out of many. I guess you just have to be

comfortable with that style. If it is working for you and your clients than

that is what matters.

 

Are there other acupuncurists their for the group that does not qualify for the

100% effectiveness? That has always been my concern. Are there choices for

those who do not get served by what I offer. There are very few acupuncturists

in my town. One takes insurance, BC/BS, so he is probably getting all the

insurance-only clients. He only works a few days in this town. Otherwise we

would have to send people 1 hr away to get to an area with many acupuncturists

and many alternatives.

 

Just a note on business practices, since we have had this on going discussion

over the years.

 

What I am seeing is:

 

People starting community acupuncture with incredibly low rates to serve

everyone and to get their businesses going.

 

People learning facial rejuventation to get in a client who will pay anything to

look better, and is not insurance dependent.

 

And the larger scale businesses that Dr. Singer has molded where the

practitioner is in charge and the patient either does it or is out.

 

I guess my question is, where is the in between. Those of us who want to see 30

patients a week, or 50 with an associate. It's a good living and a good quality

a life, but this size business seems to be the hardest for us all to grab a hold

of .

 

Anne

 

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" zedbowls " <zaranski

> >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac wrote:

> >You will be hard pressed to prove that all patients need the same

> >amount of prepaid care or for that matter that they need the amount

> >that you are selling them. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> There are not two clients with the same size treatment plan. I tried

> to give you an idea of the average case.

>

> > anne.crowley wrote:

> >>

> > Well Mark, I studied business for a while, worked in the industry

> and then taught it; and one thing I always came away with is that the

> goal of the corporation was to maximize the wealth of the

> shareholders - period.

> >

> > So in the insurance business, yes we play Pascal Wager theory with

> them, they hire well trained actuaries, we are betting against our

> own immortality.

> > I do think the insurance business is doing great these days -

> because it is a business based on fear. We saw national elections

> decided because of a fear factor. Even when I insure my home

> applicances, I feel like I'm contributiing to this. I'm still a

> slave to car insurance, home applicance insurance, ipods - so long

> term care, name it.

>

> Anne, The ONE YEAR (2001) that insurance companies actually had to

> pay out more than their target caused unbelievable upsets in the

> industry that they settled by increasing (in some cases vastly)

> premiums on virtually every kind of coverage.

> >

> > Okay, so that said about insurance. Does it have it's benefits> I

> think so. If one does go into the hospital for any procedure, that

> can break you financially - unless you already have nothing - then

> there is emergency room service or Medicaid.

>

>

> My family has NO health insurance. A typical (middle of the road)

> health care plan for my family (2 adults @ 48M/40F, 3 kids @

> 9M/11F/13Myrs, 2 dogs, 1 cat, many amphibians and fish) that DOES NOT

> cover dental, vision, etc would run in the neighborhood of

> $750/month, or $9000/year. Our actual conventional health care costs

> (NOT inc DENTAL, VISION, and VETRENARY) have totalled just under

> $5000 for the last 14 years COMBINED, and that includes costs

> associated with prenatal care and births of all three kids (born at

> home with midwife in attendance). My children have never been

> subjected to any vaccines, and between them have had only three sets

> of X-rays taken (broken fibula, and two broken collar bones--two of

> three are boys), and one round of anti-biotics. That means I have

> not wasted about $112,000 on insurance I would not have used.

>

> We do spend way more money than the equivalent " average family of 5 "

> on what we eat. We consciously seek out the very best sources of

> nutrition we can find. Most of what we eat is grown organically on

> land that has not been stripped of its mineral content. We are

> vegetarians (we do eat eggs, local honey, and while I do not, the

> rest do include some organic dairy). We do whatever we can to get

> the nutrition we need from our food, we avoid vitamin and mineral

> supplements for the most part. Our children are full-sized, healthy

> and strong, get top grades and, while it is not a goal of ours, they

> regularly bring home attendance awards as they rarely feel less than

> GREAT.

>

> We do contribute money monthly to a rainyday fund to cover inevitable

> specifically unforseen expenses: replacing the well pump, septic

> system repair, actual conventional medical expenses.

>

> With regards to automobile insurance...Our " fleet " of vehicles is

> covered with only the lowest reasonable level of PL & PD coverage as

> collision/comprehensive coverage for these particular vehicles is not

> fiscally worth it. We have a 1999 Chevy Suburban (seats 8 with room

> for dogs and toys, can pull almost anything and gets 16-18 mpg on the

> road), a 1987 VW transporter(seats 7 with room for dogs and toys and

> camping gear, 22 mpg), and a 1982 VW turbodiesel wagon (seats 5 has

> room for plenty of stuff OR some stuff and the dogs, gets 40 mpg).

> All were bought with cash (house mortgage is the only monthly payment

> we have for any purchases). All have ridiculously low bluebook

> values, and comp/collision premiums would quickly surpass their

> values.

>

> I do not suggest that others follow our example, as MOST people are

> not in a position to do so. We have access to alternative medical

> care that many do not, we drink wonderfully clean and mineral rich

> water from our own well, we get plenty of fresh air, sunshine and

> exercise, and we avoid ingesting the crap most people eat and drink

> that makes and keeps them ill.

>

> >

> > Getting to a few questions:

> >

> > I had considered taking insurance because it seems so much money is

> wasted. The client spends $400 a month on insurance premiums - that

> protect against the medical emergencies and possibly acupunture.

> Then when I don' take insurance, they pay a deductible of 300 or 400

> and insurance co pays 70% ot bill (not always). The client would

> have paid $15 or $30 otherwise.

> > I did meet some practitioners out my school recently who started

> taking BC BS. They each have 30 or 35 patients a week. They say

> they get reimburse fairlly well. One has an office assitant, the

> other doesn't.

> > I don't think either one of them, including me, wants a business a

> large as yours.

>

> Our purpose is to spread to as many people as possible knowlege of

> the power of TCM to unlock the body's ability to heal, repair and

> maintain itself without drugs and unnecessary surgeries. We have

> grown to where we are now without ANY advertising, simply by word of

> mouth from those we have helped. Most who find us are fed-up with

> feeling poorly even tho they do everything their doctors tell them to

> do. We have grown because every person we help sends two or ten

> family members, loved ones, co-workers and neighbors to us.

>

> >

> > I think taking insurance does help the cliient, who otherwise would

> not have gottten treatment.

> > My rates are on the high side, so I feel I have some flexibilty in

> discounting when needed. If I took insurance that flexibiltiy would

> probably go away.

> >

> We provide documents that help our clients file for reimbursement

> from their insurance companies, but we DO NOT file for them or accept

> payment from their insurance companies (except in rare occasional

> direct pay circumstances from a specific insurer for injured people

> they send us). I am not against people being reimbursed by their

> insurers! We encourage clients to pay with pretax funds from medical

> savings accounts or flex plans.

> >

> > You said some clients were not accepted. Do you reject them if

> they don't do the prepays. Will you still work with people that want

> to book a few treatments, and then see, and book further?

> > I get a lot of long term clients, I guess because I view it that

> way. In the Five Element world, we think in terms of treatment for

> life - for ourselves and others if they want to go to that level.

> >

> We are focussed on 100% effectiveness, and you can't get there if you

> accept into care people you're pretty sure won't do their part (show

> up for treatments, follow dietary reccomendations, take their herbs,

> stop smoking and other self destructive behaviors) or are not

> committed to changing their health (and most often their

> lifestyles). Most successful clients at our clinic have life

> changing experiences. (for most people who come to us, the way they

> were living their lives led to their poor health).

>

> Prepays are in no way REQUIRED of our clients. I simply give them

> the option when we present them with our reccomendation of treatment

> plan for them. Most who continue treatment after an evaluation

> period (typically 4-6 treatments with two education sessions),

> whether with the goal of reaching their personal full health

> potential, CORRECTION of their body's health systems, or mearly

> RELIEF from their symptoms, prepay for services to save themselves

> time and money. There are those who because of their own cash flow

> situations or simply personal preference do pay as they go. We have

> three clients right now who are following to the tee their corrective

> treatment plans on a payg basis. However, it seems most who PAYG

> drift out of treatment somewhere not long after achieving relief.

> Two clients who achieved relief (both from intense low back pain) in

> 2001 (before we instituted our formalized client education program)

> have come back in the last few months and are now persuing correction.

>

> We are not interested in being a non-hazardous substitute for a pain

> pill. Our goal is to restore HEALTH, not just get and keep people on

> the non-symptomatic side of the line.

>

> When I ask potential clients (virtually anyone with health problems

> that concern them) " what does it mean to be 'healthy'? " I often hear

> the answer " well, if you're not sick, you're healthy, " to whoch I

> reply " OK, then by the same logic, if you're not poor, you must be

> wealthy! " After a few moments of consideration, they get the point.

>

> Mark Z.

>

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > P.S. The legality of the prepays varies by state. Yes the state

> insurance commissioner has something to do with it. In MD it is

> accceptable for health care people to accept prepays; there must be

> an agreement that you will refund for all services not provided -

> that the client no longer wants. Sorry, the upfront money we give to

> our personal trainer is lost if we don't show up.

> >

> >

> We do sign an agreement with our clients that spells-out how refunds

> work (prepaid total minus services used at LIST PRICE equals refund),

> and we give prompt refunds for unused prepaid services when requested

> for virtually ANY reason, or if we decide to remove someone from our

> care (typically for not doing their part). Some who practice

> similarly have policys where missed (unrescheduled to stay current

> with treatment plan) appointments result in moneys being donated to

> charity as a penalty/incentive to be courteous and show-up or

> reschedule with enough time for someone else to benefit from the open

> treatment slot.

>

> We run a no-wait clinic and we never overbook (our parking lot

> prohbits anything else!), so no shows not only waste OUR time, they

> keep others who need treatments from getting them. If a scheduled

> client arrives at the clinic on time (at or before their appointment

> time and gets their chart filled-out within 3 minutes of that

> appointment time) and is not on a treatment table within 8 minutes we

> apologize and offer them a free product appropriate for their needs.

> If they are not on a table within 15 minutes of their scheduled time

> (while having arrived in a timely manner, see above) we gift them

> with a certificate for 30 minutes of theraputic or relaxation

> massage. If a client is left on a table untreated for 10 minutes (or

> longer) they get the massage certificate. If a client has to wait

> for accessory techniques for 10 minutes(or longer) after needles are

> removed, they get the massage certificate. We have only had to give

> out three massage certificates since we instituted this policy at the

> beginning of 2005!

>

> We have " preferred needling sessions " for those receiving

> regular " plan " treatments (just treatments and accessory techniques,

> no consults, no re-evaluations, no dietary counselling, some

> treatment strategy adjustments based on client's subjective info, but

> not too much) wherein all seven rooms are scheduled at 5 minute

> intervals followed by a 20 minute break before the next set of 7,

> which is followed by a 45 minute break. The sequence is then

> repeated with that session ending after the second 14 treatments.

> That's 28 treatments completed in about 4 hours.

>

> We also have " regular treatment sessions " where all seven treatment

> rooms are scheduled at 10 minute intervals with a twenty minute break

> between sets. Regular plan clients who have experienced some new

> condition (a fall, car wreck, bad illness, etc.) are encouraged to

> reschedule themselves out of Preferred " and into " Regular " sessions

> if possible so that we can spend more time with them. We do re-

> evaluations every 8 threatments and those 8th treatments are

> typically scheduled during " regular " sessions, OR they schedule their

> re-evaluation separate from their treatment time.

>

> New and evaluation clients' treatments are scheduled during separate

> sessions or during " regular " sessions if necessary, never

> during " Preferred " sessions. Initial consults are rarely scheduled

> during preferred sessions.

>

> >

> > When you buy insurance, you are placing a bet with a registered

> > > bookie. Lets take term life insurance that covers you thru age

> 60,

> > > having benefits of $100,000. You " buy " either in a single

> payment or

> > > with payments this " coverage " . What you have actually done is

> place

> > > a bet that you are going to expire before the term of the plan

> > > expires. The insurance company accepts your bet, they are

> betting

> > > that the plan will expire before YOU do.

> > >

> > > NOTE WELL: you are placing a bet you hope to lose! Note also:

> the

> > > insurance company KNOWS the odds and, just like the casino, they

> know

> > > that overall THEY will end-up the big winners. Additionally,

> they

> > > HATE to pay out on the occassions when they DO lose the bet.

> They

> > > are in the business of collecting premiums, NOT of writing

> settlement

> > > checks.

> > >

> > > Some clients occasionally ask me " Don't you wish that people's

> > > insurance covered the services you provide so that more people

> would

> > > feel they could seek your help for their health problems? "

> > >

> > > To this I ALWAYS explain that I have no desire to bill insurance

> > > companies on behalf of our clients for several reasons: 1) every

> > > alternative health care provider I know who DOES employs someone

> > > who's only focus is just that (and they do nothing that directly

> and

> > > positively affects the health of the clients), 2) insurance

> companys

> > > are notorious for deciding what and how much will be covered

> > > essentially directing the course of treatment for clients (and I

> ask

> > > them " Who do you want in charge of your health care? the

> Insurance

> > > company who's sole interest is their bottom line? or your TCM

> > > practitioner who's concern for your health restoration and

> concern

> > > for their own reputation are mutually alligned goals?), 3)

> everyone I

> > > know who does bill insurance regularly has claims denied and has

> to

> > > accept non-payment for services provided, or has to chase the

> client

> > > for moneys THEY were sure they would not have to pay (and who may

> > > have elected to forego the threatments had they known they would

> have

> > > to pay out of pocket).

> > >

> > > It is not uncommon for corrective treatment plans to exceed 40

> > > treatments (some approaching 80 treatments), span more than 8

> months

> > > (even up to 18 months), include several hundreds of dollars in

> > > anticipated herbal product needs, and total in excess of $2500

> (some

> > > considerably more).

> > >

> > > Prepaying for future-scheduled health-restoration treatments is

> no

> > > more buying insurance from someone without a license than is

> buying a

> > > card good for 20 carwahes you haven't used yet.

> > >

> > > We also allow clients to prepay for maintenance and wellness

> > > treatments (for health optimization) once they have completed

> their

> > > corrective treatment plans

> > >

> > > We also help clients create a " home herbal pharmacy " complete

> with

> > > instructions of when to use each item (and when to seek qualified

> > > help). Included are usually various

> > > chinese herbal, folk-medicine and homeopathic " remedies " for many

> > > common ailments including cold/cough, flu, sinus, sore throat,

> diaper

> > > rash, indigestion, diarhea, 1st degree burns, etc.

> > >

> > > Mark Zaranski

> > > East Wind Acupuncture, Inc.

> > > Chesterton, Indiana

> > >

> > > We have 7 treatment rooms on two levels, 15 client-parking

> spaces,

> > > two acupuncturists, two acupuncture assistants, a front desk, and

> a

> > > case manager. We provide (present average) about 125 treatments

> per

> > > week (mon-thurs) and have an overall average of 20 visits per

> client

> > > (includes EVERY person treated, even those who only get one

> > > treatment). In 2006 we saw a total of 295 people for initial

> > > consultations and 251 were accepted for treatment. 130 of them

> > > subsequently elected to persue corrective treatments plans.

> > > Many of the remainder stayed in treatment to the point of

> complete

> > > relief from their symptoms. Some, in persuit of the magic

> bullet,

> > > were dissatisfied to find that one acupuncture treatment did not

> > > completely erase their condition (usually after they have spent

> years

> > > or decades trying everything else first, often giving those other

> > > therapies months or years to produce unsatisfactory results) and

> > > never returned for follow-up treatments. In the first two months

> of

> > > 2007 we treated for the first time 73 new clients, and we expect

> we

> > > may approach 500 total new clients for the year. We may be

> searching

> > > for another practioner (TCM, freehand needlers--tube needlers

> need

> > > not apply) during this calendar year.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

anne.crowley wrote:

 

> Are there other acupuncurists their for the group that does not

>qualify for the 100% effectiveness? That has always been my

>concern. Are there choices for those who do not get served by what

>I offer.

 

Here is the problem: We do have another acupuncturist in town, a

woman from China who has been in practice (part-time) for decades.

We like her, and we believe her to be a skilled practitioner, but she

has communication issues...we are in a small (12,000) conservative

midwestern town about 90 minutes from Chicago. Chinese medicine is

NOT the first thought for those considering their health care

options. A practitioner who is not an effective comnmunicator loses

more people than they retain, and thus cannot expose people to the

true power of the medicine we practice.

 

 

>There are very few acupuncturists in my town. One takes insurance,

>BC/BS, so he is probably getting all the insurance-only clients. He

only works a few days in this town. Otherwise we would have to send

>people 1 hr away to get to an area with many acupuncturists and many

>alternatives.

>

 

Our clinic has earned a stellar reputation for changing people's

health pictures. There are several acupuncturists in the general

vicinity, many located closer to where our clients live than us. We

have clients that drive up to two hours to reach our clinic. At one

point we had people who would drive in for treatment, stay overnight,

receive treatment the next day and then drive home. My in-laws came

from SoCal for 3-1/2 months to get start their health restoration

process, each received 2 to 4 treatments per week while here and are

now home continuing their health journey with treatments at an

established SoCal acupuncturist and at PCOM student clinic.

 

 

> Just a note on business practices, since we have had this on going

discussion over the years.

>

> What I am seeing is:

>

>

People starting community acupuncture with incredibly low rates to

serve everyone and to get their businesses going.

>

 

Sure! we lose a little on each treatment, but make it up in VOLUME!

 

> People learning facial rejuventation to get in a client who will

pay anything to look better, and is not insurance dependent.

>

 

Vanity treatments...What's next? Acupuncture boob jobs?

 

> And the larger scale businesses that Dr. Singer has molded where

the practitioner is in charge and the patient either does it or is

out.

>

 

We are busy people and have only so many hours in the day that must

be divided between home, family, work, community, recreation, and

obligations.

 

At our clinic we do not waste our time treating people who are not

committed to changing their health for the better. So you provide

treatments, but the client does not progress because they are working

against you behaviorally...What should you do? Keep treating

(treading water) with the hopes that they will decide to do what is

right for their health? During the SAME TIME you could instead pour

your energies into clients who are committed to changing their health

who will follow your dietary advice, take the herbs you give them,

learn to breathe, drink the amount of water you suggest, stop the

self-destructive behaviors, do the stretches, go for the walk, etc.

Where are your energies more productive? Which client is going to

make the kind of health gains that will KEEP YOU MOTIVATED???

 

We work against the fearmongers' tactics, and teach people to have

confidence in their body's ability to heal outside of the world of

pharmaceuticals and surgery.

 

> I guess my question is, where is the in between. Those of us who

want to see 30 patients a week, or 50 with an associate. It's a good

living and a good quality a life, but this size business seems to be

the hardest for us all to grab a hold of .

>

> Anne

 

Exactly! you're going to need a place to practice no matter how few

people you decide you can help in a week: OVERHEAD. Your overhead

doesn't give a damn how many people cancelled their appointments that

week/month, your overhead doen't care if you FEEL like working that

week or not... PAY UP or GET OUT: a certain numer of treatments

must be performed each month simply to keep the mailing address. Do

you have debt from school? How many treatments must you do to make

your school loan payment? Do you have to hold a " regular " job to

make ends meet? Will you be able to save enough money to send your

children to college? There seem to be more acupuncture school

graduates who derive the bulk of their income from activities other

than Chinese medicine than those who's practice sustains them. WHY???

 

One of my goals is to fully utilize the facility we have (presently

all but empty on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays) to satisfy the

community's need for health care (not sickness care). The facility

we use (described in detail on a related thread) has the potential to

support in the neighborhood of 230 treatments per week (6 days, M-

Sa). There seems to be an unlimited number of people who need and

want our help, and those we do help and have helped are counting on

us to do the same for their family members, co-workers and neighbors.

 

Mark Z