Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Hi again, Before things heat up -(as I sense this is where they could be heading) please let me reiterate that I'm not trying to slander another acupuncturist or hurt their business. I've been treated by this acupuncturist so I'm aware of how he's practicing. I'm looking for information and experiences. I don't want to write anything until I've thoroughly explored the subject. But I think that it's important for patients to understand the different protocols available and help them make an educated choice. I myself think that it works well for weight loss and addiction. I also think that it has a place in one's practice - But I don't see it as totally Oriental Medicine. Remember how angry everyone has been that MD's only need a few hundred hours in order to provide acupuncture. I can see a similar situation here. A 15 minute session with a pain protocol and minimum history and intake is not the same as a full session with a practitioner of Oriental Medicine. It's not just less talk as Julie stated - it's less diagnosis - it's less treatment. I'm really looking for information and other people's experiences. I do think that it's difficult to compare our situations to China. The main difference being that 80% of my patients are on multiple medications. Many of their symptoms are exacerbated and sometimes even caused by these medications. I had a 75 year-old women with active shingles for over two years. I spent a great deal of time on her history and medications. She had been put on Neurontin over a year ago. In the PDR - at the very end of the drug description it says that in rare cases Neurontin can cause shingles. Yes she had the shingles before she took the drug - but the medicine was keeping it active. I told her to consult with her doctor about this and he took her off the medication immediately - than I was able to deal with the post herpetic neurolgia. The other issue is diet - regardless of where they are on the sliding scale - they still seem to be able to afford a great deal of food that has no nutritional value. The Chinese have a better understanding of the medicinal value of what they eat and acupuncture is not foreign to them - so community acupuncture would seem to work well for them as they are more knowledgeable. I wrote to the group because I was looking for information and I appreciate your help. I'm not looking for ammunition to use to attack anyone. Mary ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 http://www.workingclassacupuncture.org/ Hi Mary: Just sharing the link above. I'm not sure I agree with you that this model of operation treats symptoms only. Have you personally spoken with the patients who are stating 'acupuncture doesn't work'? I am very curious about this and would like to hear more. I recall hearing the 'cafeteria' style of treatment is also used in China. On a personal note, I do support this philosophy as 'health care' in this country is a dismal morass to which increasingly less people are entitled. Low income communities, whether urban or rural are disgracefully short on adequate care. BTW, I am in the midst of establishing a community based sliding fee scale clinic myself. TH acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Hi Mary...I forgot to add this link which is also on the website I sent previously. TH " Also, if you are not aware, there is a new national movement afoot, CAN, and you can access this by going to the website, www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org " acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Mary, I suspect most of those who would rather spend thousands of dollars on flat screen TVs rather than on their own well being would not be reading an article regarding TCM in the newspaper. They probably get all the news they want 52 " wide. You don't need to formalize a sliding scale to use one based on your perception of people's needs or financial situation, jsut charge what you think you should for that person! We do everything we can to make our services affordable for the less fortunate. I do, however, lack sympathy for those who's " fiscal inability " to afford the health care their bodys need is due to the outrageous payments on their new Lexus. If they are not committed to changing their health, why should I be? Simply treating symptoms is nothing other than substituting acupuncture for a pill. The goal of any fully trained TCM practitioner should be to restore function and balance to the organs, blood- and energy-systems...get and keep people as healthy as they can be and teach them how to stay that way. Educating clients is not just a good idea, it should be manditory. We face, in each new person we treat, a life time of acquired misinformation and learned ignorance that we must dispell if our clients are to get the full benefit TCM has to offer Most people I ask tell me that being healthy means being " not sick. " To me, application of the same logic would mean that being wealthy means " not poor " ... Most people recognize immediately that there are many levels above " not poor " before one would reach the level commonly called wealthy. So too, there is a wide gulf between " not sick " and healthy. Yet our western medical tradition has trained the public to believe the suppression of symptoms is all that is required to make the sick healthy. What percentage of your clients drop out of care as soon as relief is achieved? What percentage of us teach (and constantly reinforce) our clients that the actual goal is twelve normal pulses rather than the disappearance of symptoms? On average, how many treatments do your clients receive before they are " done " or rolled onto an infrequent maintenance schedule or a call if you need status? At our clinic, the actual calculated average since 1 January 2005 is just under 20 (19.96) treatments per person. This calculation includes every single individual that has been needled at our facility during that time period, even if they only received ONE TREATMENT, four treatments (our standard new-client evaluation), or many. Our client treatment average for those who choose to embark on corrective treatment plans is much higher, and an average corrective treatment plan we present today spans anywhere from 4 or 12 treatments (for a simple sports injury or perhaps a simple condition in an otherwise healthy person) to fifty-some to eighty-some treatments spanning 10 - 18 months for seriously messed-up individuals with deep multiple-organ dysfunction complicated by shoeboxes full of pharmaceuticals. We treat four days a week, presently averaging 120 treatments per week. In excess of 80% of our new clients are referred by our present clientbase-people who's lives have been changed by their experience with Chinese medicine. Most have some understanding from their acquaintence who referred them as to what they might expect. Over the last four weeks we have returned pre-paid funds to two individuals who had committed to corrective care treatment plans but who could not keep-up on what they had to do to get healthy (diet, taking their herbs, etc.). We kicked them out of their treatment programs because they were wasting OUR TIME. Time we would rather use to help those who are committed to the changes necessary for them to achieve true health. It is not just the old guy with the lounge chairs giving TCM a bad reputation. Mark Zaranski East Wind Acupuncture, Chesterton, Indiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Thanks Stephen, It's a good idea about the web site - I've also asked about the legality of the sliding scale - As it's been explained to me: If you accept insurance reimbursement - then you can't charge one patient more than another. If you don't get involved with insurance for any of your patients then it's not an issue. If someone knows differently - please let us know. I don't get involved with insurance - and when some of my patients can't pay - I've lowered the rate or even treated them for free - but I don't change the way I treat them. Mary ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Careful on stereotyping type of diagnosis & treatments given across all community clinics, what one clinic does may not be the same as the next. Sometimes results are results too, no matter how achieved. Haven't you ever picked a general set of points and if they weren't effective then tried to make it more specific? I think a lot of the benefit of this style of treatments is not that it is less treatment it is just less talking, especially if you are able to see the patient more than once a week/month etc I have been looking into CA and have actually been quite impressed with what I have seen so far. I will be attending a seminar in April to learn more. You might check this out http://www.itmonline.org/arts/restructure.htm and write what you will but be fully educated on the subject first. Im not saying you are wrong or right, I just would like you to be careful before possibly affecting someone else's business, similar to what the western world has done to us. Julie - acumary Chinese Traditional Medicine Sunday, March 18, 2007 8:07 AM Community acupuncture Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 HI Mary You are opening a can of worms with this discussion...maybe one that should be opened. I have seen this conversation become heated and unpleasant here in the Bay Area. My suggestion is: Write an article for your website and focus on the positives of what you offer... if it is experience, comprehensive diagnosis, musculoskeletal assessment, privacy...whatever makes your practice worth coming to and paying for!!! I have heard many things on both sides of the sliding scale issue. Much of the criticism sounded like urban legend (as is often the case). I've heard people say that it's illegal...but can't quote a law that says that. When I called the California Acu. Board regarding this issue, they said that they don't dictate fees....BUT...if a patient called and complained that they were " unfairly " charged more than other patients...it would be investigated as unprofessional conduct and potentially actionable. When I asked about any specific laws, they advised me to contact one of the state acupuncture organizations...which I haven't had time to do. So, write an article...talk about the benefits of Chinese medicine...acknowledge that there are different treatment styles and different clinic styles and what those are. Some people will drive 20 miles for better service...some won't even cross the street. If your article sounds like it has an agenda it may not get printed and if it does, it still may put off some people. Stephen Woodley LAc -- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Mary: It appears your question is about a newspaper article. I write one every month for a health magazine. That is how people get to know me and see the uniqueness of me as an acupuncturist. They call me because something resonates in the article. Other people I get are from patient referrals, doctor referrals, and chiropractic referrals (usually their hard cases, but this is my greatest number of referrals). When I offer an information workshop at the local hospital, only a handful of people show up, but almost all become my patients, for a long time. My rates are among the highest in my area. During my treatments, patients are usually in the office about 1 hr and 15 mins. I talk to them, listen to them, diagnose, place a first set of needles, turn on music, maybe give them a suggestion before I leave (if appropriate), go to treat another patient, come back in the room - remove the neeles, put in another set - now is when some real movement can happen - often I finish the treatment with command point on their five element, again have some talking, listening, reinforcing the treatment. At my home I see one patient an hour and I still leave the room to let the needles cook. In both offices, if no one is behind the patient, and they need more time to process something, I do that. Otherwise they may have to come in sooner (e.g. in one week instead of two weeks) if something is really going on. I keep a lot of patients long term, maintenance. It was really how my school approached things and how I was treated initially. It is of course, always the patient's decision. Some do go away for a while and come back. Some don't. It is a commitment of time and money and not everyone will do it. I always offer outside ways to bolter their health - yoga, exercise (I talk them through how to get started), diet changes. So there are always ways to stay healthy that are not that expensive. I happen to think acupuncture is worth the expense. Now for community acupuncture. As someone said, that is a can of worms. I live in a town where there are few acupuncturists, but new people have come in (who don't live here) and plopped themselves into town (after I drove 1.5 hours to school for 3.5 years) but that is neither here or there. I personally like that there are means for reduced cost acupuncture treatments. The only way to make that viable to a practitioner (unless it was gov't subsidized) is to treat multiple people at a time. When I was an acupuncture student we were required to work in drug addiction clinics in Baltimore City. The program was funded by Baltimore and a private grant for acupuncture. The supervisors connected with my school were paid from the private grant. The students were free. In one clinic there would be 20 people there, with just the supervisor and me; in another clinic 40 people would come in (with more students of course). One learns to be quite efficient here. There is some real healing that can go on in a group setting. The supervisor dimmed the lights and did a little meditaiton. One day we heard gunshots go off at 10 am, so that was a bit disconcerting. One of our patients ran out to see if it was someone she knew. So obviously this was serving those that needed it. I do see community acupuncture as serving a group of people that may really need it. I also see the comprehensive approach and focus on two people in1.5 hrs as a whole different service. One that those who want it, will pay for it. I have an acupuncturist in town who is an insurance provider. I am not. He will charge the insurance company a lot more for his services than others. I simply can't practice like this. So,I lose patients to him. Now we have people from Oriental backgrounds at our mall running around selling acupressure and acupuncture as you walk by. Their services are reduced. But again, the service is different, the practitioner is different, in all of these cases. Be who you are, what you are comfortable with. I went to a hynotherapist recently and go regularly. She has not been to school for 3.5 years studying it. Her rates are the same as mine. I pay it , and I think she's worth it. Write about what you offer, how acupuncture works. I wrote one article, " Make and Investment In Your Health. " I alluded to the 52 " widescreen, but didn't quite say it. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- acumary > Hi Everyone, > > I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist > started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge > chairs > in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's > protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as > little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not > trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only > sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the > pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty > diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. > > I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it > gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has > really > cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge > and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to > explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't > want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) > > I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what > Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really > is a > very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as > just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that > it is. > > There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all > insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this > might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. > > I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people > think that a newspaper article is a good idea? > I would appreciate any comments or advice. > > Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. > > > > ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi Twyla, I'm interested in the community acupuncture clinic you're setting up and would love to hear more about it. I have a thriving practice on Long Island (NY), but am concerned about how inaccessible $70 treatments are to many people. To that end, I keep about 1/4 of my appointments available for folks who need a sliding scale. But I'd like to do more. I downloaded the book on working class acupuncture which someone else posted about a while ago. Here's a question perhaps you can help with.... I'm nearing 60 and keep my tables on the high side so I won't have to bend over. I find that, plus good shoes and standing in a tai chi posture, allow me to be on my feet for my 14 or 15 hour days. But leaning over recliners all day long? How do you plan to deal with that? Good luck with the clinic! Peace, Liz - Twyla Chinese Medicine Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:53 PM Re: Community acupuncture http://www.workingclassacupuncture.org/ Hi Mary: Just sharing the link above. I'm not sure I agree with you that this model of operation treats symptoms only. Have you personally spoken with the patients who are stating 'acupuncture doesn't work'? I am very curious about this and would like to hear more. I recall hearing the 'cafeteria' style of treatment is also used in China. On a personal note, I do support this philosophy as 'health care' in this country is a dismal morass to which increasingly less people are entitled. Low income communities, whether urban or rural are disgracefully short on adequate care. BTW, I am in the midst of establishing a community based sliding fee scale clinic myself. TH acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I noticed some negative comments about the idea of " community acupuncture, " and certainly understand the points being raised. I wanted to add that I think it might also be a good idea to visit the website and read what the woman who's come up with this concept has to offer. She has much to say that is worth considering even if you don't agree with it. My own experience was in starting a free clinic for the poor and working poor. Over the last three years, it has been able to offer acupuncture, chiropractic, naturopathic care, Reiki, massage, yoga classes and instruction in meditation. One of the things I noticed was that, while I was gung ho to educate and change people's lives, their struggles just to pay the electric bill or even keep a roof over their head outweighed, for the moment, what they could do vis a vis herbs, diet, or lifestyle changes. I found it difficult doing acupuncture at our clinic because I just couldn't see as many people in my shift as wanted to have it. I found the ideas put forth on the " community acupuncture " website to offer me a glimpse of how to do this. I'm wondering if anyone on this website has been involved in Acupuncturists without Borders, or other such efforts. I'd love to hear about the logistics of how you gave treatments under those conditions. Peace, Liz ******* Stop the silence around mental illness. ****** Go to www.nami.org and www.afsp.org to learn more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi Mary, Have you had a conversation with this other acupuncturist? It could be invaluable for you to clarify for yourself the differences between what you and he offer, and perhaps allay some of your concerns and fears. I say this because I initiated a community-style clinic last autumn, for which I designated specific hours out of my regular " individual treatment " hours. Yes, that's right, I was offering both kinds of treatments. Why? Because I was meeting alot of people who said they couldn't afford my regular fees for individual treatments. So I offered this as a community service, and also as an experiment. This is what I learned: Other practitioners were delighted about it! Not only other local acupuncturists, but also other health professionals were happy to know there was a low-cost option for their low-income clients. I received referrals from them, much to my surprise. They did not view me as their competition, nor as taking away clients from them, but as providing a needed service for which they were grateful. I even shared one patient with another acupuncturist; this client needed a frequency of care he could not afford with the other practitioner, and local treatments in his back that were not available in my community clinic. It was an interesting experience of professional collaboration for both of us, and a learning experience for the patient as well, who learned something about different styles and approaches available for his care. When other practitioners asked me what I was offering in the low-fee clinic, I told them I would treat anything that could be addressed with distal and auricular treatments. There were a few patients who wanted to come for low back pain but who could not sit comfortably in a chair, and I had the discomfort of telling them this clinic could not address their needs. Other than back pain, though, I can't think of any other health issues I felt I couldn't help. Most surprising to me personally, however, is the woman with fibromyalgia, who I thought would need in-depth care and herbal medicines to get well, but who responded dramatically with the most minimal care. I loved the feeling of community that evolved out of the low-fee clinic, and I loved the community support I received for doing it. However, I found it quite a challenge energetically, and burned out at about the same time patients stopped coming shortly before the Christmas season. I'm grateful for the experience, and am glad to have learned I don't have the stamina for such a high-energy form of practice. It also raised more questions for me about how to provide affordable health care for other low-income members of my community. I don't have the answers for your insurance questions, but I hope this is of some help to you. And yes, I do think whatever education you can provide to the public is always going to be ultimately to your benefit. acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Twya, I have to disagree. In my experience, this style of treatment can be a powerful tool for healing, if done properly. But if you expect to provide symptomatic relief only, it is likely that is what you will get. True too, symptomatic relief also has its value. : - D Twyla <twylahoodah wrote: http://www.workingclassacupuncture.org/ Hi Mary: Just sharing the link above. I'm not sure I agree with you that this model of operation treats symptoms only. Have you personally spoken with the patients who are stating 'acupuncture doesn't work'? I am very curious about this and would like to hear more. I recall hearing the 'cafeteria' style of treatment is also used in China. On a personal note, I do support this philosophy as 'health care' in this country is a dismal morass to which increasingly less people are entitled. Low income communities, whether urban or rural are disgracefully short on adequate care. BTW, I am in the midst of establishing a community based sliding fee scale clinic myself. TH acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that it is. There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people think that a newspaper article is a good idea? I would appreciate any comments or advice. Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Mary: I appreciate your bringing up this topic and for the thread that has developed. I am, on the one hand, interested and on the other, concerned. It's like being born at the wrong time. If I was graduating now, a CA style clinic would definitely be what I would want to establish or be a part of. It fits my cosmic sensibilities. On the other hand, I have a lovely 4 room clinic that is definitely not conducive to CA style treatments. Since I have been in practice for a year and a half, I have a lot of investment in equipment, structure, rent, etc. I can't imagine reinventing myself right now. On the other hand, there are many graduating now and establishing CA clinics and I see my business slowing down. I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have asked several patients how they would react to CA based treatments. Most have indicated that they like the fact that we have a lot of conversation and nutritional advice. I also do moxa and cupping, if appropriate. I am not sure how to switch from full service to a bare bones approach with current patients. It would be a real opportunity to practice assertiveness and set boundaries. But I am aware that I may be forced in this direction if it becomes the rule instead of the exception in clinic styles. One of the other challenges I anticipate with a CA type clinic that I have heard expressed by another acupuncturist who is trying CA in his practice is that people's lives are busy and stressed (part of the reason they are sick or in pain) and they don't have or choose not to take the time to get multiple treatments a week. It sounds great--charge less and treat more often. Does that play out in reality? Life gets in the way. Thanks again for starting the thread. It is a topic I am very interested in. Meredith Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > Hi Mary, > > Have you had a conversation with this other acupuncturist? It could be invaluable for you to clarify for yourself the differences between what you and he offer, and perhaps allay some of your concerns and fears. > > I say this because I initiated a community-style clinic last autumn, for which I designated specific hours out of my regular " individual treatment " hours. Yes, that's right, I was offering both kinds of treatments. Why? Because I was meeting alot of people who said they couldn't afford my regular fees for individual treatments. So I offered this as a community service, and also as an experiment. This is what I learned: > > Other practitioners were delighted about it! Not only other local acupuncturists, but also other health professionals were happy to know there was a low-cost option for their low-income clients. I received referrals from them, much to my surprise. They did not view me as their competition, nor as taking away clients from them, but as providing a needed service for which they were grateful. I even shared one patient with another acupuncturist; this client needed a frequency of care he could not afford with the other practitioner, and local treatments in his back that were not available in my community clinic. It was an interesting experience of professional collaboration for both of us, and a learning experience for the patient as well, who learned something about different styles and approaches available for his care. > > When other practitioners asked me what I was offering in the low-fee clinic, I told them I would treat anything that could be addressed with distal and auricular treatments. There were a few patients who wanted to come for low back pain but who could not sit comfortably in a chair, and I had the discomfort of telling them this clinic could not address their needs. Other than back pain, though, I can't think of any other health issues I felt I couldn't help. Most surprising to me personally, however, is the woman with fibromyalgia, who I thought would need in-depth care and herbal medicines to get well, but who responded dramatically with the most minimal care. > > I loved the feeling of community that evolved out of the low-fee clinic, and I loved the community support I received for doing it. However, I found it quite a challenge energetically, and burned out at about the same time patients stopped coming shortly before the Christmas season. I'm grateful for the experience, and am glad to have learned I don't have the stamina for such a high-energy form of practice. It also raised more questions for me about how to provide affordable health care for other low-income members of my community. > > I don't have the answers for your insurance questions, but I hope this is of some help to you. And yes, I do think whatever education you can provide to the public is always going to be ultimately to your benefit. > > > > acumary wrote: Hi Everyone, > > I live in a small town in NY state. SIx months ago a new acupuncturist > started doing " community acupuncture " exclusively. He has 7-8 big lounge chairs > in one room and treats patients with some auricular acupuncture and Dr. Tan's > protocols. He is charging his patients on a sliding scale and some pay as > little as $10. The most charged is $35 for the initial treatment. He is not > trained in herbs (New York state does not license or require it) and only > sells a few patents. Basically he is treating symptoms not diagnosing the > pattern or the patient. It will help some people but when people with knotty > diseases are not helped, they come away saying that acupuncture doesn't work. > > I can see value in what he is doing and there is a place for it, but it > gives people the wrong idea about what Oriental Medicine is. It also has really > cut into the business of the rest of us. People call and ask what I charge > and then say they can get acupuncture for $10. Seldom do I get the chance to > explain the difference in our treatments. I've found that people just don't > want to pay for health (yet they all have 52 inch flat screen TVs) > > I wanted to write an article for the local newspaper and explain what > Oriental Medicine is. I'm not trying to put down a colleague but there really is a > very big difference in what we do. I worry that acupuncture will be seen as > just another technical protocol instead of the complete medical system that > it is. > > There is a bill before the NY state congress to make it mandatory for all > insurance companies to pay for acupuncture. I worry that something like this > might affect what we will be allowed to charge them. > > I really feel that the public needs to be educated about this. Do people > think that a newspaper article is a good idea? > I would appreciate any comments or advice. > > Mary Chamberlain, L.Ac.,M.S. > > ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi Mary, It sounds like your colleague is trying to closely follow Richard Tan's clinical as well as treatment model. (I've heard him say he treats 50 patients a day, lying around on chaise lounges, etc.) That style (as in his two books, and supposed relationship to the Master Tong style) is a channel approach, and can be effective for a wide range of clients. That is to say, conditions at the wei or external level (to use Jeffery Yuen's terminology), covering sensory, nervous, muscolo-skeletal, membrane immune systems. Treating at that level can easily make for a full practice. And it suits well the type of patient that just wants it fixed, and to be in-and-out quickly. Many people are like that, and should get what they want. Internal, constitutional and long-term chronic conditions are a different story, and characterize a large number of people who seek out AOM. And those who want more attention and are willing to learn more about themselves and taking responsibility for their own health. Definitely write articles, give talks, do health fairs, etc. Maybe develop a relationship with the health editor at a local paper, keeping in touch with them to offer interesting topics and insights on them that may interest readers. For instance the AOM take on breaking news stories in the health area. (E.g. a month or so ago, the news that NYC banned trans-fats. When it catches the publics eye, every paper wants a special, possibly local take on it. In this case, possibly dietary therapy.) Analyze and present your own strengths, where you can show enthusiasm. (From your additional messages, you don't have to be warned not to attack other styles or be defensive.) -- Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release 3/17/2007 12:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I find this topic, and Working Class Acupuncture, which appears to be related, fascinating. A teacher back at PCOM, from Australia, described a clinic there where the patients sat around tables during treatments and enjoyed it. There are certainly limits to it, as a social environment might distract some patients from fully absorbing the effects of treatment. Some patients will surely cherish the private room, but I have often family members in on the treatments, particularly parents with children patients, but also spouses, or adult children with elderly parent patients. At times I've even put up the portable massage table next to the fixed treatment table in a room to treat two family members together. And it can offer certain economies, ergonomic and otherwise, for the practitioner. Thanks for the information and web links. -- Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release 3/17/2007 12:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 For some reason I cant c & p sorry digesters! Below you talk about 15 min treatments, as I said before I haven't actually been to a seminar yet so I am not entirely sure of what they teach as far as treatment times, diagnosis, etc, but I am working on switching to a CA clinic and have NO INTENTION of giving 15 min treatments, I agree that would be a dis-service. In my mind my clinic will be run just like many busy offices, patients every 20 min, they can stay for an hour, snooze in their recliners should they choose. I just will pick up my speed, have less to clean because of setting, talk less about lifestyle/nutrition/herbs and less chit-chat. I still plan on diagnosing just as I always do, where I am unsure is how herbs come into play in this scenario - which is part of what I hope to get out of the seminar. I have some ideas though. Thanks for the topic and discussing it openly, there is lots to think about here Julie - acumary Chinese Medicine Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:27 PM Re: Community acupuncture Hi again, Before things heat up -(as I sense this is where they could be heading) please let me reiterate that I'm not trying to slander another acupuncturist or hurt their business. I've been treated by this acupuncturist so I'm aware of how he's practicing. I'm looking for information and experiences. I don't want to write anything until I've thoroughly explored the subject. But I think that it's important for patients to understand the different protocols available and help them make an educated choice. I myself think that it works well for weight loss and addiction. I also think that it has a place in one's practice - But I don't see it as totally Oriental Medicine. Remember how angry everyone has been that MD's only need a few hundred hours in order to provide acupuncture. I can see a similar situation here. A 15 minute session with a pain protocol and minimum history and intake is not the same as a full session with a practitioner of Oriental Medicine. It's not just less talk as Julie stated - it's less diagnosis - it's less treatment. I'm really looking for information and other people's experiences. I do think that it's difficult to compare our situations to China. The main difference being that 80% of my patients are on multiple medications. Many of their symptoms are exacerbated and sometimes even caused by these medications. I had a 75 year-old women with active shingles for over two years. I spent a great deal of time on her history and medications. She had been put on Neurontin over a year ago. In the PDR - at the very end of the drug description it says that in rare cases Neurontin can cause shingles. Yes she had the shingles before she took the drug - but the medicine was keeping it active. I told her to consult with her doctor about this and he took her off the medication immediately - than I was able to deal with the post herpetic neurolgia. The other issue is diet - regardless of where they are on the sliding scale - they still seem to be able to afford a great deal of food that has no nutritional value. The Chinese have a better understanding of the medicinal value of what they eat and acupuncture is not foreign to them - so community acupuncture would seem to work well for them as they are more knowledgeable. I wrote to the group because I was looking for information and I appreciate your help. I'm not looking for ammunition to use to attack anyone. Mary ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 There is a video on this topic at this link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=198648125400746974 & hl=en Chinese Medicine , " Julie Ormonde, L.Ac. " <cariadanam wrote: > > For some reason I cant c & p sorry digesters! Below you talk about 15 min treatments, as I said before I haven't actually been to a seminar yet so I am not entirely sure of what they teach as far as treatment times, diagnosis, etc, but I am working on switching to a CA clinic and have NO INTENTION of giving 15 min treatments, I agree that would be a dis- service. In my mind my clinic will be run just like many busy offices, patients every 20 min, they can stay for an hour, snooze in their recliners should they choose. I just will pick up my speed, have less to clean because of setting, talk less about lifestyle/nutrition/ herbs and less chit-chat. I still plan on diagnosing just as I always do, where I am unsure is how herbs come into play in this scenario - which is part of what I hope to get out of the seminar. I have some ideas though. > > Thanks for the topic and discussing it openly, there is lots to think about here > Julie > > - > acumary > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, March 18, 2007 2:27 PM > Re: Community acupuncture > > > Hi again, > > Before things heat up -(as I sense this is where they could be heading) > please let me reiterate that I'm not trying to slander another acupuncturist or > hurt their business. I've been treated by this acupuncturist so I'm aware of > how he's practicing. I'm looking for information and experiences. I don't > want to write anything until I've thoroughly explored the subject. > But I think that it's important for patients to understand the different > protocols available and help them make an educated choice. > > I myself think that it works well for weight loss and addiction. I also > think that it has a place in one's practice - But I don't see it as totally > Oriental Medicine. > > Remember how angry everyone has been that MD's only need a few hundred hours > in order to provide acupuncture. I can see a similar situation here. A 15 > minute session with a pain protocol and minimum history and intake is not the > same as a full session with a practitioner of Oriental Medicine. It's not > just less talk as Julie stated - it's less diagnosis - it's less treatment. > > I'm really looking for information and other people's experiences. I do > think that it's difficult to compare our situations to China. The main > difference being that 80% of my patients are on multiple medications. Many of their > symptoms are exacerbated and sometimes even caused by these medications. I > had a 75 year-old women with active shingles for over two years. I spent a > great deal of time on her history and medications. She had been put on Neurontin > over a year ago. In the PDR - at the very end of the drug description it > says that in rare cases Neurontin can cause shingles. Yes she had the shingles > before she took the drug - but the medicine was keeping it active. I told > her to consult with her doctor about this and he took her off the medication > immediately - than I was able to deal with the post herpetic neurolgia. > > The other issue is diet - regardless of where they are on the sliding scale > - they still seem to be able to afford a great deal of food that has no > nutritional value. The Chinese have a better understanding of the medicinal value > of what they eat and acupuncture is not foreign to them - so community > acupuncture would seem to work well for them as they are more knowledgeable. > > I wrote to the group because I was looking for information and I appreciate > your help. I'm not looking for ammunition to use to attack anyone. > Mary > > ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. > Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.