tamoxafin herbal contraindications

[Guest guest]

Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to ward

off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

[Guest guest]

Tamoxifen is given when tumors are estrogen sensitive. For safety's sake, some

prefer to

avoid herbs with estrogeninc activity such as Dang Gui. Do we think those herbs

actually are

estrogenic? Well, they affect the uterus of rats, so they are supected to have

estrogeninc

activities. Her MD would probably prefer you err on safety's sake, as he/she

would not let her

take hormone replacement therapy either.

 

Gabrielle

 

Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan "

<petrabuchanan wrote:

>

> Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to ward

> off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

> Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan "

<petrabuchanan wrote:

>

> Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to

ward

> off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

> Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

 

 

I never got any negative comments from doctors.

With a balanced formula I see no problem(I wouldn't use Dang gui as

a single high dosage herb). Never compare rats with humans :-)

 

Stick with treating the side effects and preventing side effects.

Read the list of side effects carefully to get an idea

what " TCM syndrome " it looks like.

 

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682414.html

Tamoxifen may cause cancer of the uterus (womb), strokes, and blood

clots in the lungs.

Tamoxifen may increase the risk that you will develop other cancers,

including liver cancer.

Tamoxifen may increase the risk that you will develop cataracts.

 

 

These are side effects from switching off the bodies main mechanism

to " reproduce "

(Yang is switched off, yin-blood can't be produced nor moved anymore

forming blood clots and tumors, that's a mechanism I see in Tamoxifen

patients)

 

Breast cancer is based on depression.

The regular TCM tumor theory and treatment like in liver cancer does

not work here. Anyway be prepared for side effects

from tamoxifen, not from chinese herbals.

 

I use these herbals as a basis, to prevent blood clots and tumor

formation resulting from severe yin deficiency.

 

Dang gui 3g

Bai shao 2g

Yu jin 2g

Dan shen 3g

Chai hu 2g

Niu xi 3g

gou qi zi 3g

gan cao 2g

(daily dosage)

this mixture is also fine against the depressions and the " bitchy "

behaviour that arise during Tamoxifen.

 

with nightsweats add

zhi mu, mu dan pi

 

with edema add

fuling, zexie

 

with any slime condition

chang pu, ban xia, chen pi

 

Also add any of the above " add-ons " if the condition

calls for it. Nightsweats, slime, edema are just keywords,

all of the above herbals are my favorites. Stay away from

bitter cold herbals that might damage yin and qi.

 

Greetings, Tayfun.

(lic. alternative healer, Germany)

[Guest guest]

Petra,

 

Bob Flaws has an article on Chinese Herbal Medicine and Estrogen-dependent

tumors on his website. He mentions the clinical use of Dan Gui in the treatment

of breast and uterine cancer in China. Mr. Flaws also addresses the differences

between estradiol (E2), estrone (E1), and estriol (E3) (three different types of

what is generically called estrogen): " An herb said to contain estrogenic

activities does not necessarily meant that it increases estradiol or estrone.

It may actually increase estriol or regulate the ration between E1/E2 and E 3. "

 

Estriol (E3) is the protective estrogen that is high during pregnancy. It

does not activate the estrogen receptor. instead, it occupies the receptor

sites so that it is NOT available for estradiol. www.bluepoppy.com

 

I have a 52-year old, female patient who has cancer in her family (parents are

deceased. father from prostate cancer, mother from lung cancer. sister has had

breast cancer). Her MD is talking about give her a drug to 'take the estrogen

out of her body.' I am thinking she means either Nolvadex or Tamoxifen or

something to inhibit aromatase. Anyway, I was hoping that someone can point me

in the direction of research on herbs that abolish/reduce estrogen formation by

use of aromatase inhibitors.

 

Thanks.

Kathleen

 

gabriellemathieu <gabriellemathieu wrote:

Tamoxifen is given when tumors are estrogen sensitive. For safety's

sake, some prefer to

avoid herbs with estrogeninc activity such as Dang Gui. Do we think those herbs

actually are

estrogenic? Well, they affect the uterus of rats, so they are supected to have

estrogeninc

activities. Her MD would probably prefer you err on safety's sake, as he/she

would not let her

take hormone replacement therapy either.

 

Gabrielle

 

Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan "

<petrabuchanan wrote:

>

> Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to ward

> off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

> Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kathleen

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels

in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

 

This doesn't really answer your question, but I wanted to share a story about a

previous patient who was on tamoxafen.

 

I had a patient as an intern in school who had been in a test group for

tamoxafen before it was released for use. Of all the 70 women in her trial

group, she was the only one still living. Initially, she thought (erroneously)

that this meant she never did, in fact, have breast cancer. I was treating her

for back pain.

 

When I last saw her, after she took a year's hiatus from acupuncture, she had

been diagnosed with diabetes and was refusing to follow her doctor's dietary

recommendations. Still another year later, she was being treated by a new

intern who had assisted me in her care previously. The patient was now having

uterine bleeding and enlargement from the tamoxafen, and the cancer had spread

to her bones. It turns out, the cancer had been in her low back for quite a

while and was likely the cause of her low back pain when she first saw me.

There was a hole in her femur that was palpable through her thigh muscles.

 

Tamaxofen is one scary drug. But so is denial in a patient who is sick.

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " petrabuchanan "

<petrabuchanan wrote:

>

> Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to ward

> off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

> Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't be flakey. Get Mail for Mobile and

always stay connected to friends.

 

 

[Guest guest]

regarding dang gui, check out this link showing its cancer protective nature

http://www.ashi-research.com/Newsletter/FebNewsletter.html

 

--

Ross Rosen, LAc, CA, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)

Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine

166 Mountain Ave.

Westfield, NJ 07090

(908) 654-4333

www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com

 

 

This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s)

to whom it is addressed. If you should receive this in error please contact

 

us immediately by return email, or at the above phone number. Unauthorized

use of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA

regulations. Under no circumstances shall this material be retained,

transmitted,

or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Gabrielle and all;

As per your post below, I wished to point out that the _assumption_ is that we

would be erring on the safe side by not prescribing herbs which are [assumed] to

be estrogenic [in a dangerous manner]. There is no information to back up this

speculation. I am furthermore impressed by how this whole idea is bolstered when

it is a fact of biology that the body is constantly creating, and indeed relying

on, estrogenic effects. Where is the line? No answer to that either. It's a

guessing game based on drug trials which showed a relationship between

estrogenic effects caused by some very powerful, heavily dosed drugs and certain

tumour types. That's all.

 

Hugo

 

 

gabriellemathieu <gabriellemathieu

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 15 March, 2007 4:21:54 PM

Re: tamoxafin herbal contraindications

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tamoxifen is given when tumors are estrogen sensitive. For safety's

sake, some prefer to

 

avoid herbs with estrogeninc activity such as Dang Gui. Do we think those herbs

actually are

 

estrogenic? Well, they affect the uterus of rats, so they are supected to have

estrogeninc

 

activities. Her MD would probably prefer you err on safety's sake, as he/she

would not let her

 

take hormone replacement therapy either.

 

 

 

Gabrielle

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " petrabuchanan "

 

<petrabuchanan@ ...> wrote:

 

>

 

> Does anyone have experience treating patients taking Tamoxafin to ward

 

> off breast cancer? What herbs are contraindicated here? Thank you,

 

> Petra Buchanan, L,Ac

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<!--

 

#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean,

sans-serif;}

#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}

#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}

#ygrp-text{

font-family:Georgia;

}

#ygrp-text p{

margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#ygrp-tpmsgs{

font-family:Arial;

clear:both;}

#ygrp-vitnav{

padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}

#ygrp-vitnav a{

padding:0 1px;}

#ygrp-actbar{

clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}

#ygrp-actbar .left{

float:left;white-space:nowrap;}

..bld{font-weight:bold;}

#ygrp-grft{

font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}

#ygrp-ft{

font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;

padding:5px 0;

}

#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{

padding-bottom:10px;}

 

#ygrp-vital{

background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}

#ygrp-vital #vithd{

font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\

ercase;}

#ygrp-vital ul{

padding:0;margin:2px 0;}

#ygrp-vital ul li{

list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;

}

#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{

font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\

ght:.5em;}

#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{

font-weight:bold;}

#ygrp-vital a {

text-decoration:none;}

 

#ygrp-vital a:hover{

text-decoration:underline;}

 

#ygrp-sponsor #hd{

color:#999;font-size:77%;}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov{

padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{

padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{

list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{

text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}

#ygrp-sponsor #nc {

background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad{

padding:8px 0;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{

font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\

;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{

text-decoration:none;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{

text-decoration:underline;}

#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{

margin:0;}

o {font-size:0;}

..MsoNormal {

margin:0 0 0 0;}

#ygrp-text tt{

font-size:120%;}

blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}

..replbq {margin:4;}

-->

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________

New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at

the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.

http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://mail..net/uk

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Gabrielle and all;

> As per your post below, I wished to point out that the _assumption_ is that

we would be

erring on the safe side by not prescribing herbs which are [assumed] to be

estrogenic [in a

dangerous manner]. There is no information to back up this speculation. I am

furthermore

impressed by how this whole idea is bolstered when it is a fact of biology that

the body is

constantly creating, and indeed relying on, estrogenic effects. Where is the

line? No answer to

that either. It's a guessing game based on drug trials which showed a

relationship between

estrogenic effects caused by some very powerful, heavily dosed drugs and certain

tumour

types. That's all.

>

Right. I think some of it depends on the patient. if the patient is nervous

already and afraid,

then it is reassuring to tell them that we can avoid compounds that may have

estrogenic

activity. Petra's experience in Germany, I would speculate, is quite different

from ours in the

US. Our MD's tend to be more suspicious of herbal supplementation. So if the

patients

explicitly trusts the MD and is just trying out TCM, I would let them know I can

avoid herbs

such as Dang Gui. On the other hand, if the patient likes TCM and herbal

therapy, and is

comfortable, then i would use Dang Gui or other herbs in a balanced formula if

the pattern

dx calls for it.

[Guest guest]

Hello all. I am writing to say that I really appreciate all of your input as to

my question about tamoxifin. I actually live in america and you are right, MD's

here are pretty suspicious. I have a very open minded patient though. So I am

giving her all of the research and pros and cons and will work with her to come

up with a treatment plan. I will let you know how it goes. Again, thank you for

all of the info.

 

gabriellemathieu <gabriellemathieu wrote: --- In

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi Gabrielle and all;

> As per your post below, I wished to point out that the _assumption_ is that we

would be

erring on the safe side by not prescribing herbs which are [assumed] to be

estrogenic [in a

dangerous manner]. There is no information to back up this speculation. I am

furthermore

impressed by how this whole idea is bolstered when it is a fact of biology that

the body is

constantly creating, and indeed relying on, estrogenic effects. Where is the

line? No answer to

that either. It's a guessing game based on drug trials which showed a

relationship between

estrogenic effects caused by some very powerful, heavily dosed drugs and certain

tumour

types. That's all.

>

Right. I think some of it depends on the patient. if the patient is nervous

already and afraid,

then it is reassuring to tell them that we can avoid compounds that may have

estrogenic

activity. Petra's experience in Germany, I would speculate, is quite different

from ours in the

US. Our MD's tend to be more suspicious of herbal supplementation. So if the

patients

explicitly trusts the MD and is just trying out TCM, I would let them know I can

avoid herbs

such as Dang Gui. On the other hand, if the patient likes TCM and herbal

therapy, and is

comfortable, then i would use Dang Gui or other herbs in a balanced formula if

the pattern

dx calls for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never miss an email again!

Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.