Why are Channels Entered listed for herbs? LI nose channel

[Guest guest]

Henry, I'm not sure about a LI channel herb working on the LI acupuncture

channel on a consistent basis...

Interesting thought... Does da huang work on the nose or neck? At least

not on the external channel.

Maybe the internal channel that goes internally at ST 12 down through the

diaphragm into the LI organ.

 

Wasn't the LI channel called the " nose channel " back in classical times?

and the SI channel the " eye channel " and the SJ the " ear channel " ?

When did the shift happen historically in labeling the LI " nose " channel the

hand yang ming channel or vice versa ?

Interesting how language reflects theory and theory reflects practice....

 

k.

 

On 3/9/07, wrote:

>

> the theory works, but practically, not sure. maybe a bi px with an LI

> herb

> as an envoy. i will sometimes use that approach. but for pain, acu does

> the work, herbs augment the acu.

>

> kb

>

> On 3/8/07, henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel<henry.buchtel%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hey John and all, any new thoughts about this?

> >

> > I was thinking that if the medicinals affect the channel in the same

> > way that needling does then (for example) you should be able to treat

> > lower jaw pain with a medicinal that Enters the LI Channel...

> >

> > Whadaya think? Naive? I'm just studying theory now, no practical

> > experience...

> >

> > Henry

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > " "

> > <johnkokko wrote:

> > >

> > > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> > channels and

> > > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> herbal

> > > treatment?

> > > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> > LV/ SP

> > > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of herbalism?

> > > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the channels?

> > >

> > > --

> > > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > understanding of

> > > a problem.'

> > >

> > > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Wasn't the LI channel called the " nose channel " back in classical times?

and the SI channel the " eye channel " and the SJ the " ear channel " ?

 

John:

 

could you expand on this? what are the other channels earlier assoc? were

there 2 eye channels (GB/UB)? that organ assoc. is helpful, clinically.

 

kb

 

 

On 3/9/07, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> Henry, I'm not sure about a LI channel herb working on the LI

> acupuncture

> channel on a consistent basis...

> Interesting thought... Does da huang work on the nose or neck? At least

> not on the external channel.

> Maybe the internal channel that goes internally at ST 12 down through the

> diaphragm into the LI organ.

>

> Wasn't the LI channel called the " nose channel " back in classical times?

> and the SI channel the " eye channel " and the SJ the " ear channel " ?

> When did the shift happen historically in labeling the LI " nose " channel

> the

> hand yang ming channel or vice versa ?

> Interesting how language reflects theory and theory reflects practice....

>

> k.

>

> On 3/9/07, <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > the theory works, but practically, not sure. maybe a bi px with an LI

> > herb

> > as an envoy. i will sometimes use that approach. but for pain, acu does

> > the work, herbs augment the acu.

> >

> > kb

> >

> > On 3/8/07, henry_buchtel <henry.buchtel<henry.buchtel%40gmail.com>

> <henry.buchtel%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hey John and all, any new thoughts about this?

> > >

> > > I was thinking that if the medicinals affect the channel in the same

> > > way that needling does then (for example) you should be able to treat

> > > lower jaw pain with a medicinal that Enters the LI Channel...

> > >

> > > Whadaya think? Naive? I'm just studying theory now, no practical

> > > experience...

> > >

> > > Henry

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> > > " "

> > > <johnkokko wrote:

> > > >

> > > > In acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, it is written that the

> > > channels and

> > > > zang/fu are connected by root-branch; is this necessarily so for

> > herbal

> > > > treatment?

> > > > In other words, why did the ancients say that Bai shao goes to the

> > > LV/ SP

> > > > channels and not the LV/ SP zang/fu? (am I correct here?)

> > > > Are we working with an instance of an acupuncturisation of

> herbalism?

> > > > Or is this just my 21st century mind that thinks that most metabolic

> > > > functions should occur in the organic tissues instead of the

> channels?

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > > understanding of

> > > > a problem.'

> > > >

> > > > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:15:06 0500, " "

>> Wasn't the LI channel called the " nose channel " back in classical

times? and the SI channel the " eye channel " and the SJ the " ear channel " ?

 

" Classical times " , and " the ancients " (as used in a

passage I cited in my last message) these terms are good to better

qualify, narrow down to period, to really understand how the issues

came about. In TCM texts, " Ancients " is used for everyone from

MaWangDui-era manuscripts through to 18th and 19th Centuries authors.

And " classical " refers documents from the YiJing through WenBing.

Pretty much anything prior to the Republic and the PRC.

 

What Kath refers to is clearly seen in the MaWangDui texts. E.g. the

2nd one (MSI.B.1, " Cauterization Canon of the 11 Yin and Yang

Vessels " ) names the hand TaiYang as " shoulder vessel " , the hand

ShaoYang as " ear vessel " , and hand YangMing as " tooth vessel " .

There's a mixture in these texts also, as the 1st text (MSI.A.5,

" Cauterization Canon of the 11 Vessels of the Foot and Forearm " ) uses

Taiyang, Shaoyang and Yangming. Likewise the (very short) 3rd one

(MSI.C, " Model of the Vessels " ). (These 3 are relatively small texts.

The bulk of the MaWangDui mss deal with various " recipes " of herbs

and spells, exercises and sexual practices.)

 

MaWangDui probably isn't really Han, as they were fragments written

across the lifetime of the guy buried there in 168 BCE, written

(mostly copied) in the early years after the unification of the

empire, but probably thoughts that were current going into the new era.

 

Some of that use of alternative terms for the channels may appear in

the Han compilations (neijing) too, as they were clearly chunking

together and refinement of fragments like those from MaWangDui and

other similar sites. The suwen as something resembling a consciously

structured book probably dates from WangBing's massive

reorganization, trying to make sense out of it all from a 9th Century

perspective.

 

So classical as Kath used it here is more like pre- and

early-classical Han. And John's " ancients " were only Song-jin-yuan and later.

 

This may seem just academic, but when the perspectives and the

historical processes (dialogs) come more into view (even just a

little, i.e. my degree of understanding), I find they come more to

life, and actually can become more clinically useful, as one realizes

they are not abstractions (TCM), but rather viewpoints based on

various specific patterns of manifestation and ways of understanding them.

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

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