Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't prescribe herbs). She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She took it for about 1 year, and felt better. Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it helped her anxiety. I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! karen Karen Adams Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) Four Directions Healing Arts 112 Avenue A Turners Falls, MA 01376 413-863-8033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Karen: I will try to stay away from the herb question. Okay, I'll say it. I would look to see if a formula like Calm Spirit or Ease Plus (more wood related) can add to help with the anxiety. I am sure their are people here to give you more detailed analysis of the herbal question. Just wanted to add that doing Aggressive Energy more often (maybe every time) until you get her anxiety down, might be good. Also I alternate with the 5 needle auricular protocol (or even some of them like Shen Men and Pt 0). HT 7 is nice too. Good luck with this, Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Karen Adams " <tryfan > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > prescribe herbs). > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > helped her anxiety. > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > karen > > Karen Adams > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > Four Directions Healing Arts > 112 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-863-8033 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 On Wednesday 07 March 2007 9:05 am, anne.crowley wrote: > Karen: > > I will try to stay away from the herb question. Okay, I'll say it. I > would look to see if a formula like Calm Spirit or Ease Plus (more wood > related) can add to help with the anxiety. I am sure their are people here > to give you more detailed analysis of the herbal question. > > Just wanted to add that doing Aggressive Energy more often Hi Anne! Is " Aggressive Energy " TCM? I don't recall anything about it in school. Perhaps you could share a link to what you are talking about, or briefly describe it. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is either si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang (+ tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu tang QB (quickens xue) + TB. if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and experience to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it. acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in dx, no fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs). i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or the equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents, whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively tx complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you describe. stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a ncaaom cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents). well, you did ask. . . kb On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan wrote: > > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > prescribe herbs). > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > helped her anxiety. > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > karen > > Karen Adams > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > Four Directions Healing Arts > 112 Avenue A > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > 413-863-8033 > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Pete: Aggessive Energy is the Back Shu points. It is in the Worsley protocol and recommend for most all new patients. I also do it throughout the course of treatment, when I feel it's needed. I did a detailed explanation of this treatment. I am sure it is in the archives. But you probably areadly know it - drain the back shu points, needles in lightly (slightly hanging - also I prefer metal handles on this unless they are sensitive), until redness goes away, about 20 min. Put in order of Bl 13,14, 18,20, 23 and then back to BL 15. A stand along treatment. Then you can do other points on the same day, but this one stands alone. Anne P.S. Pete, I hope you are not fully retired. You can do house calls and someone once thought a mobile acupuncture unit would be a good idea. What do you think? You can get to all the hot spots in Florida and maybe see a couple of good basketball games. Seriously, hope you have your hands in the work somehow. -------------- Original message ---------------------- Pete Theisen <petetheisen > On Wednesday 07 March 2007 9:05 am, anne.crowley wrote: > > Karen: > > > > I will try to stay away from the herb question. Okay, I'll say it. I > > would look to see if a formula like Calm Spirit or Ease Plus (more wood > > related) can add to help with the anxiety. I am sure their are people here > > to give you more detailed analysis of the herbal question. > > > > Just wanted to add that doing Aggressive Energy more often > > Hi Anne! > > Is " Aggressive Energy " TCM? I don't recall anything about it in school. > Perhaps you could share a link to what you are talking about, or briefly > describe it. > -- > Regards, > > Pete > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Kath: The only problem with only having NCCAOM Cert herbalist administer patents is that a lot of people would not get served. In areas that are not big cities, there are hardly acupuncturists, let alone certified herbalists, with an acupuncture license. It takes 3 additonal years of study for herbs in the Columbia MD area, after you completed 3 1/2 years of acupuncture school. Not everyone can do that, time wise or financially. I personally stick to patents I am comfortable with and if I have any questions, I ask them of the herb companies or another herbalist that is well trained. When I try to refer out in more complicated cases, people just won't drive the distance 1.5 to 2 hrs. to get to someone else. That is when I consult with a well trained herbalist and teacher. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " " > i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is either > si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang (+ > tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu tang QB > (quickens xue) + TB. > > if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it > takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and experience > to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it. > acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in dx, no > fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs). > > i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or the > equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents, > whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch > herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively tx > complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm > when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you > describe. > > stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a ncaaom > cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents). > > well, you did ask. . . > > kb > > > On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan wrote: > > > > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > > prescribe herbs). > > > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > > helped her anxiety. > > > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > > karen > > > > Karen Adams > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > > Four Directions Healing Arts > > 112 Avenue A > > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > > 413-863-8033 > > > > > > > > > > -- > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 anne: i see the dilemma, but there's a reason why the 3 1/2 yr (a *min*. necc to practice competently) is required. you seem knowledgeable and competent in your acu abilities, and i'm sure you wouldn't take on more than you can handle with the herbs, but it is you lic. on the line. if you're prescribing herbs without any accredited herbal training, you don't have much to stand on to legally defend yourself if a prob. arises. personally, i depend on my lic to put food on the table and a roof over my head. i'm a cautious and conservative practitioner when it comes to liability risks. my lic. is too valuable to me to take any risks that might cause me to lose it. (not that i fear that that's a realistic eventuality, i just won't risk even the possibility of something happening.) i worked much to hard to get it. just my opinion, kb On 3/8/07, anne.crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > Kath: > > The only problem with only having NCCAOM Cert herbalist administer patents > is that a lot of people would not get served. In areas that are not big > cities, there are hardly acupuncturists, let alone certified herbalists, > with an acupuncture license. It takes 3 additonal years of study for herbs > in the Columbia MD area, after you completed 3 1/2 years of acupuncture > school. Not everyone can do that, time wise or financially. I personally > stick to patents I am comfortable with and if I have any questions, I ask > them of the herb companies or another herbalist that is well trained. When I > try to refer out in more complicated cases, people just won't drive the > distance 1.5 to 2 hrs. to get to someone else. That is when I consult with > a well trained herbalist and teacher. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> > > i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is > either > > si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang > (+ > > tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu tang > QB > > (quickens xue) + TB. > > > > if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it > > takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and > experience > > to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it. > > acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in dx, > no > > fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs). > > > > i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or > the > > equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents, > > whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch > > herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively > tx > > complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm > > when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you > > describe. > > > > stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a > ncaaom > > cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents). > > > > well, you did ask. . . > > > > kb > > > > > > On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan <tryfan%40onetel.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > > > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > > > prescribe herbs). > > > > > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > > > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > > > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > > > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > > > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > > > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > > > > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > > > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > > > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > > > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > > > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > > > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > > > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > > > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > > > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > > > > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > > > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > > > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > > > helped her anxiety. > > > > > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > > > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > > > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > > > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > > > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > > > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > > > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > > > karen > > > > > > Karen Adams > > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > > > Four Directions Healing Arts > > > 112 Avenue A > > > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > > > 413-863-8033 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Anne, That is an excellent point and in fact I am reading right now the book " Curing Headaches Naturally with " in which it says in that book if you are unable to get a customized herbal formula from a licensed practitioner (maybe no one in your area), then try your local health food store and " experiment " with a chinese patent formula. Elie Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Kath: > > The only problem with only having NCCAOM Cert herbalist administer patents is that a lot of people would not get served. In areas that are not big cities, there are hardly acupuncturists, let alone certified herbalists, with an acupuncture license. It takes 3 additonal years of study for herbs in the Columbia MD area, after you completed 3 1/2 years of acupuncture school. Not everyone can do that, time wise or financially. I personally stick to patents I am comfortable with and if I have any questions, I ask them of the herb companies or another herbalist that is well trained. When I try to refer out in more complicated cases, people just won't drive the distance 1.5 to 2 hrs. to get to someone else. That is when I consult with a well trained herbalist and teacher. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " " > > i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is either > > si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang (+ > > tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu tang QB > > (quickens xue) + TB. > > > > if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it > > takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and experience > > to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it. > > acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in dx, no > > fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs). > > > > i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or the > > equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents, > > whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch > > herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively tx > > complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm > > when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you > > describe. > > > > stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a ncaaom > > cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents). > > > > well, you did ask. . . > > > > kb > > > > > > On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan wrote: > > > > > > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > > > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > > > prescribe herbs). > > > > > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > > > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > > > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > > > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > > > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > > > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > > > > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > > > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > > > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > > > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > > > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > > > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > > > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > > > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > > > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > > > > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > > > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > > > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > > > helped her anxiety. > > > > > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > > > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > > > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > > > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > > > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > > > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > > > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > > > karen > > > > > > Karen Adams > > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > > > Four Directions Healing Arts > > > 112 Avenue A > > > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > > > 413-863-8033 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Aggressive Energy is in the Back Shu points? I've never heard of that. Can you explain more about it please. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Pete: > > Aggessive Energy is the Back Shu points. It is in the Worsley protocol and recommend for most all new patients. I also do it throughout the course of treatment, when I feel it's needed. > I did a detailed explanation of this treatment. I am sure it is in the archives. But you probably areadly know it - drain the back shu points, needles in lightly (slightly hanging - also I prefer metal handles on this unless they are sensitive), until redness goes away, about 20 min. Put in order of Bl 13,14, 18,20, 23 and then back to BL 15. A stand along treatment. Then you can do other points on the same day, but this one stands alone. > > Anne > > P.S. Pete, I hope you are not fully retired. You can do house calls and someone once thought a mobile acupuncture unit would be a good idea. What do you think? You can get to all the hot spots in Florida and maybe see a couple of good basketball games. Seriously, hope you have your hands in the work somehow. -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Pete Theisen <petetheisen > > On Wednesday 07 March 2007 9:05 am, anne.crowley wrote: > > > Karen: > > > > > > I will try to stay away from the herb question. Okay, I'll say it. I > > > would look to see if a formula like Calm Spirit or Ease Plus (more wood > > > related) can add to help with the anxiety. I am sure their are people here > > > to give you more detailed analysis of the herbal question. > > > > > > Just wanted to add that doing Aggressive Energy more often > > > > Hi Anne! > > > > Is " Aggressive Energy " TCM? I don't recall anything about it in school. > > Perhaps you could share a link to what you are talking about, or briefly > > describe it. > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hi Kath - I don't use herbs, I don't prescribe them. My patient asked me to find out some information. Since I don't use them, I came to those of you who do for that information. I found your response a little sharp, it seems you're assuming I'd do something I actually wouldn't. You have the constituents right. My patient's question is whether it would be useful for her now. My question is will it interfere with her medication. My gut reaction when she asked me was to advise her not to take it, but that was based on instinct, not knowledge. Karen wrote: > i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is > either > si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang (+ > tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu > tang QB > (quickens xue) + TB. > > if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it > takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and experience > to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it. > acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in > dx, no > fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs). > > i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or the > equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents, > whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch > herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively tx > complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm > when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you > describe. > > stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a ncaaom > cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents). > > well, you did ask. . . > > kb > > On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan > <tryfan%40onetel.com>> wrote: > > > > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some > > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't > > prescribe herbs). > > > > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of > > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner > > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe > > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described > > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She > > took it for about 1 year, and felt better. > > > > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the > > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she > > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months, > > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM > > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence > > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The > > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the > > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her > > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation. > > > > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai. > > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming > > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it > > helped her anxiety. > > > > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm > > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her > > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good, > > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which > > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs > > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial > > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs! > > karen > > > > Karen Adams > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons) > > Four Directions Healing Arts > > 112 Avenue A > > Turners Falls, MA 01376 > > 413-863-8033 > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 On Thursday 08 March 2007 10:40 pm, anne.crowley wrote: > Aggessive Energy is the Back Shu points. It is in the Worsley protocol and > recommend for most all new patients. I also do it throughout the course of > treatment, when I feel it's needed. <snip> > - drain the back shu points, needles in lightly (slightly hanging - also > I prefer metal handles on this unless they are sensitive), until redness > goes away, about 20 min. Put in order of Bl 13,14, 18,20, 23 and then back > to BL 15. A stand along treatment. Then you can do other points on the > same day, but this one stands alone. > > Anne > > P.S. Pete, I hope you are not fully retired. Hi Anne! I find that it takes about $750 in promotion to find a patient who spends about $150 " trying out " TCM and then typically gags on the insurance issue. On my website I put it differently: I said that my practice is limited to " . . . sincere and committed patients . . . " That is VERY limiting indeed. I offered to volunteer at the senior center but they said they weren't ready for that. The deal there is that the doctors serve for free but the center bills medicare and insurance, and we know how that goes for us. Do you have the patient lying on his/her face or do you use some other position? -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hi Karen, The women's precious would not interact unfavorably with your patient's meds. This particular patent is really a concentrated form of nutrition. But, she could probably do much better than women's precious. With polyps, ms, anxiety - women's precious would not be very effective in a deep or even moderate way. I would agree with Kath that, if she is interested in taking Chinese herbs again, it would be best to send her to an herbalist for a diagnosis that corresponded to herbal medicine. I know there are lots of herbalists in your area - (including me except I am on sabbatical right now - feel free to contact me off line if you would like a referral for your patient) Sharon Hi Kath - I don't use herbs, I don't prescribe them. My patient asked me to find out some information. Since I don't use them, I came to those of you who do for that information. I found your response a little sharp, it seems you're assuming I'd do something I actually wouldn't. You have the constituents right. My patient's question is whether it would be useful for her now. My question is will it interfere with her medication. My gut reaction when she asked me was to advise her not to take it, but that was based on instinct, not knowledge. Karen Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Karen: didn't mean to be sharp, please forgive. i just get straight to the point, without beating around the bush. i did not mean, in any way, to imply that you were not a competent LAc. the fact that you are using this forum to ask questions when you are uncertain shows your integrity and dedication to your patients. the query just pushed a button with me. i feel quite strongly that the ch herbs need greater regs, and should only be prescribed by NCCAOM cert ch herbalist (or the equiv.). i was really responding to that issue, not to you personally. clearly you are trying to do the best for your patient, shown by your post of the query. apologies if i offended you in any way, kab On 3/9/07, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: > > Hi Karen, > > The women's precious would not interact unfavorably with your > patient's meds. This particular patent is really a concentrated > form of nutrition. But, she could probably do much better than > women's precious. With polyps, ms, anxiety - women's precious would > not be very effective in a deep or even moderate way. I would agree > with Kath that, if she is interested in taking Chinese herbs again, > it would be best to send her to an herbalist for a diagnosis that > corresponded to herbal medicine. I know there are lots of > herbalists in your area - (including me except I am on sabbatical > right now - feel free to contact me off line if you would like a > referral for your patient) > > Sharon > > Hi Kath - I don't use herbs, I don't prescribe them. My patient asked > me to find out some information. Since I don't use them, I came to > those of you who do for that information. I found your response a > little sharp, it seems you're assuming I'd do something I actually > wouldn't. > > You have the constituents right. My patient's question is whether it > would be useful for her now. My question is will it interfere with her > medication. My gut reaction when she asked me was to advise her not to > take it, but that was based on instinct, not knowledge. > Karen > > Sharon Weizenbaum > 86 Henry Street > Amherst, MA 01002 > 413-549-4021 > sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com> > www.whitepinehealin garts.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hi Kath - I don't use herbs, I don't prescribe them. My patient asked me to find out some information. Since I don't use them, I came to those of you who do for that information. I found your response a little sharp, it seems you're assuming I'd do something I actually wouldn't Karen: didn't mean to be sharp, please forgive. i just get straight to the point, without beating around the bush. i did not mean, in any way, to imply that you were not a competent LAc. the fact that you are using this forum to ask questions when you are uncertain shows your integrity and dedication to your patients. the query just pushed a button with me. i feel quite strongly that the ch herbs need greater regs, and should only be prescribed by NCCAOM cert ch herbalist (or the equiv.). i was really responding to that issue, not to you personally. clearly you are trying to do the best for your patient, shown by your post of the query. apologies if i offended you in any way, kab PS. thanks for your openness, your comments were constructive. in the future, i will try to remember to add a little sugar. -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 So Kath, How do you feel about us policing our own with a certification such as NCCAOM? You do realize that only a couple of states actually test for herbal knowledge by a govt body. Is this not the better way to go and avoid the " good ole boy syndrome " often found in self-regulation. I tend to have reservations about NCCAOM getting involved with or at the govt level and think there needs to be separation. I think then state's should be regulating this but many states do not allow herbs under the acu scope of practice. I guess we have a long way to go folks. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : anne.crowley: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 03:46:50 +0000Re: TCM - patent herbs question Kath:The only problem with only having NCCAOM Cert herbalist administer patents is that a lot of people would not get served. In areas that are not big cities, there are hardly acupuncturists, let alone certified herbalists, with an acupuncture license. It takes 3 additonal years of study for herbs in the Columbia MD area, after you completed 3 1/2 years of acupuncture school. Not everyone can do that, time wise or financially. I personally stick to patents I am comfortable with and if I have any questions, I ask them of the herb companies or another herbalist that is well trained. When I try to refer out in more complicated cases, people just won't drive the distance 1.5 to 2 hrs. to get to someone else. That is when I consult with a well trained herbalist and teacher.Anne-------------- Original message ---------------------- " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " > i don't use patents, just raw/gran, but to my recollection WPrec. is either> si wu tang (BShao, DangGui, ChuanXiong, Shu di) or tao hong si wu tang (+> tao ren, hong hua). si wu tang builds blood (TB) and tao hong si wu tang QB> (quickens xue) + TB.> > if you don't know herbs, then stay away from them and do not advise. it> takes many years of study, memorization, clinical training, and experience> to effectively and safely prescribe ch herbs. do not get involved in it.> acu training is not enough, herbalist's must be much more precise in dx, no> fudging (in addition to understanding and knowing the herbs).> > i feel pretty strongly that only trained ch herbalists (NCCAOM cert or the> equivalent) should be allowed to prescribe ch herbs (bulk, patents,> whatever). i look forward to future leg. changes that will restrict ch> herbs to this group. Remember, if they are strong enough to effectively tx> complicated dx when prescribed correctly, they are strong enough to harm> when used inappropriately, esp. in a complicated gyn case, such as you> describe.> > stck to what you know, and have been trained to do. refer out to a ncaaom> cert. ch. herbalist to handle the herbs (even patents).> > well, you did ask. . .> > kb> > > On 3/7/07, Karen Adams <tryfan wrote:> >> > Hi folks - I have a patient who has asked me to find out some> > information for her re the remedy Women's Precious (since I don't> > prescribe herbs).> >> > She was originally prescribed the formula about 3 years ago because of> > 'erratic periods'. She was 43 at the time, she and her practitioner> > thought she might be perimenopausal. She was also having severe> > anxiety, fluttering heartbeat, anxiety attacks (when I described> > Running Piglet Qi, she thought that was exactly what she felt). She> > took it for about 1 year, and felt better.> >> > Then she was diagnosed with MS, and the practitioner changed the> > formula (I'll have to get back to you on name of new formula - she> > describes it as a tonic). Her periods stopped for a couple of months,> > then she had a period and bled for several months, non-stop. Her WM> > doc said she didn't ovulate, and the uterine lining built up, hence> > the non-stop bleeding. Then WM doc found some uterine polyps. The> > anxiety had returned. She went back on Women's Precious and the> > bleeding lessened, but didn't stop. Just before I started seeing her> > 6 months ago, she had an endometiral oblation.> >> > We've been mostly working with the Eight Extras, Ren Mai and Dai Mai.> > Her MS symptoms have stabilized. However, her anxiety is coming> > back. She'd like to start taking Women's Precious again because it> > helped her anxiety.> >> > I do Five Element acupuncture; she has a Wood CF, probably GB, and I'm> > not surprised she's feeling edgy now since spring energy is here. Her> > tongue is pale, thin, not much coat. Her pulses are pretty good,> > although generally not very clear in the beginning of treatment, which> > may be the drugs she takes - and it just occurs to me that the drugs> > and herbs could be interacting, so I'll post this and get some initial> > ideas from you all, and get back to you on the drugs!> > karen> >> > Karen Adams> > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac, BS, BA(Hons)> > Four Directions Healing Arts> > 112 Avenue A> > Turners Falls, MA 01376> > 413-863-8033> >> > > >> > > > -- > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA> Oriental Medicine> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective> > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777> kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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