Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Thanks, this is really helpful. The experience I've had with SP yin def. was a woman who had lower lip mouth sores, SP blood def. with heat. (this goes along with what you translated). My professor said that this was SP yin def. and we gave huang jing along with Liu wei di huang... (shan yao...). In the 2nd edition Bensky pg. 326, use sha shen and mai men dong with huang jing for SP/ST yin def. So there is a saying that the SP is almost never dry and the Stomach is almost never damp. Other than " hunger without being hungry " or " no desire to drink or eat " (SP yin def) vs over hungry or thirsty (ST yin def.) how does this syndrome differentiate from ST yin def. with SP blood def. Is it based on the channel flow? Going back to the woman with mouth sores, my professor claimed that if it was on the upper lip, it would have been ST yin def. or ST fire. Bottom lip is SP channel (the end of the channel spreads across the tongue). Well the herbs worked for her. Thanks again... k. On 3/5/07, tayfx <aajohansen wrote: > > > > > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of > Zang/Fu > > patterns? > > There are not many students that want to learn from 3000pages thick > books. Especially the modern " uni " versity has cropped ancient > knowledge, on the other hand they published expensive thick > speciality books. > Schools edit books to attract students. > Few people in China can afford thick books. > > You will find these patterns in " thicker " chinese books, > and as there are different schools and practises (basic syndromes, > syndromes concerning the whole body, zangfu syndromes, febrile > diseases, shanghan syndromes etc.) to differentiate > diseases you will find them better described in other categories. > > As there seems to be scarce information I just translated a text > on SP yin deficiency > from > Differential diagnosis of TCM syndromes (2nd edition 2002 > renminweishengchubanshe page321) > > SP has Yin-Qi and Yang-Qi. Yang-Qi of SP is SP-Qi and SP-Yang; thus > Yin-Qi of SP is SP-Blood and fluids (jin-ye) of SP. > SP yin deficiency syndrome is a SP-Yin-Qi insufficiency syndrome with > SP-Yin-Blood or fluids insufficiency. > In clinical practise this is called SP-yin or SP-Blood or SP-fluids > insufficiency syndrome. > > Maiyinzhengzhi-book says: > " Sp defc can be divided into yin and yang. > With Sp-yin defc there is > - Sp-blood damaged and dispersed > - Sp-fire burning upwards > - Sp-defc developing heat > If one drinks warming tonics he will suffer from arising fire and yin > will diminish, > you must tonify SP-yin to withdraw Yang from its winning position. " > > So the excess-branch (shi-biao) on top of the SP-yin-deficiency > syndrome > is a " yin defc yang excess " syndrome of the SP. > > Main clinical observations, symptoms: > no desire to drink and eat, food is not digested, belching, caoza*)- > feeling and stomach pain, dry mouth, thirsty, dry stool, > emaciation, dry red tongue, yellow or no tongue coating, thin and > fast pulse. > > This syndrome is found in diseases like Stomach pain, obstipation, > Gastrointestinal bleeding, Haematemesis. > > Differential diagnosis: ST-yin deficiency, L.I.-fluid deficiency, > Heart and SP blood deficiency. > > (this is the translation of a fifth of the text, rest is desribing > symptoms more detailed > as described in ancient texts, which herbals and recipes are used by > which authors, indepth > differentialdiagnosis) > > *)caoza: a feeling of emptyness in the stomach, as if there is > nothing inside, hungry without being hungry, > burning heat without burning, pain without pain > > > -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 John How did she do? - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 05, 2007 6:22 PM Re: Re: SP yin def. vs ST yin def. Thanks, this is really helpful. The experience I've had with SP yin def. was a woman who had lower lip mouth sores, SP blood def. with heat. (this goes along with what you translated). My professor said that this was SP yin def. and we gave huang jing along with Liu wei di huang... (shan yao...). In the 2nd edition Bensky pg. 326, use sha shen and mai men dong with huang jing for SP/ST yin def. So there is a saying that the SP is almost never dry and the Stomach is almost never damp. Other than " hunger without being hungry " or " no desire to drink or eat " (SP yin def) vs over hungry or thirsty (ST yin def.) how does this syndrome differentiate from ST yin def. with SP blood def. Is it based on the channel flow? Going back to the woman with mouth sores, my professor claimed that if it was on the upper lip, it would have been ST yin def. or ST fire. Bottom lip is SP channel (the end of the channel spreads across the tongue). Well the herbs worked for her. Thanks again... k. On 3/5/07, tayfx <aajohansen wrote: > > > > > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of > Zang/Fu > > patterns? > > There are not many students that want to learn from 3000pages thick > books. Especially the modern " uni " versity has cropped ancient > knowledge, on the other hand they published expensive thick > speciality books. > Schools edit books to attract students. > Few people in China can afford thick books. > > You will find these patterns in " thicker " chinese books, > and as there are different schools and practises (basic syndromes, > syndromes concerning the whole body, zangfu syndromes, febrile > diseases, shanghan syndromes etc.) to differentiate > diseases you will find them better described in other categories. > > As there seems to be scarce information I just translated a text > on SP yin deficiency > from > Differential diagnosis of TCM syndromes (2nd edition 2002 > renminweishengchubanshe page321) > > SP has Yin-Qi and Yang-Qi. Yang-Qi of SP is SP-Qi and SP-Yang; thus > Yin-Qi of SP is SP-Blood and fluids (jin-ye) of SP. > SP yin deficiency syndrome is a SP-Yin-Qi insufficiency syndrome with > SP-Yin-Blood or fluids insufficiency. > In clinical practise this is called SP-yin or SP-Blood or SP-fluids > insufficiency syndrome. > > Maiyinzhengzhi-book says: > " Sp defc can be divided into yin and yang. > With Sp-yin defc there is > - Sp-blood damaged and dispersed > - Sp-fire burning upwards > - Sp-defc developing heat > If one drinks warming tonics he will suffer from arising fire and yin > will diminish, > you must tonify SP-yin to withdraw Yang from its winning position. " > > So the excess-branch (shi-biao) on top of the SP-yin-deficiency > syndrome > is a " yin defc yang excess " syndrome of the SP. > > Main clinical observations, symptoms: > no desire to drink and eat, food is not digested, belching, caoza*)- > feeling and stomach pain, dry mouth, thirsty, dry stool, > emaciation, dry red tongue, yellow or no tongue coating, thin and > fast pulse. > > This syndrome is found in diseases like Stomach pain, obstipation, > Gastrointestinal bleeding, Haematemesis. > > Differential diagnosis: ST-yin deficiency, L.I.-fluid deficiency, > Heart and SP blood deficiency. > > (this is the translation of a fifth of the text, rest is desribing > symptoms more detailed > as described in ancient texts, which herbals and recipes are used by > which authors, indepth > differentialdiagnosis) > > *)caoza: a feeling of emptyness in the stomach, as if there is > nothing inside, hungry without being hungry, > burning heat without burning, pain without pain > > > -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Alon, She was a patient who came in for maintenance of glaucoma due to KD and LV yin and blood def. The SP yin def. was a one time diagnosis. After taking the herbs for one week, her mouth sores went away. She went back on a modified Ming mu di huang tang with added gou qi zi, ju hua and jue ming zi. k. On 3/5/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > John > How did she do? > > > > > > > > > > - > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Monday, March 05, 2007 6:22 PM > Re: Re: SP yin def. vs ST yin def. > > Thanks, this is really helpful. > The experience I've had with SP yin def. was a woman who had lower lip > mouth > sores, SP blood def. with heat. (this goes along with what you > translated). > My professor said that this was SP yin def. and we gave huang jing along > with Liu wei di huang... (shan yao...). > In the 2nd edition Bensky pg. 326, use sha shen and mai men dong with > huang > jing for SP/ST yin def. > > So there is a saying that the SP is almost never dry and the Stomach is > almost never damp. > Other than " hunger without being hungry " or " no desire to drink or eat " (SP > yin def) > vs over hungry or thirsty (ST yin def.) > how does this syndrome differentiate from ST yin def. with SP blood def. > Is it based on the channel flow? > > Going back to the woman with mouth sores, my professor claimed that if it > was on the upper lip, it would have been ST yin def. or ST fire. Bottom > lip > is SP channel (the end of the channel spreads across the tongue). Well the > herbs worked for her. > > Thanks again... > k. > > On 3/5/07, tayfx <aajohansen <aajohansen%40uni.de>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of > > Zang/Fu > > > patterns? > > > > There are not many students that want to learn from 3000pages thick > > books. Especially the modern " uni " versity has cropped ancient > > knowledge, on the other hand they published expensive thick > > speciality books. > > Schools edit books to attract students. > > Few people in China can afford thick books. > > > > You will find these patterns in " thicker " chinese books, > > and as there are different schools and practises (basic syndromes, > > syndromes concerning the whole body, zangfu syndromes, febrile > > diseases, shanghan syndromes etc.) to differentiate > > diseases you will find them better described in other categories. > > > > As there seems to be scarce information I just translated a text > > on SP yin deficiency > > from > > Differential diagnosis of TCM syndromes (2nd edition 2002 > > renminweishengchubanshe page321) > > > > SP has Yin-Qi and Yang-Qi. Yang-Qi of SP is SP-Qi and SP-Yang; thus > > Yin-Qi of SP is SP-Blood and fluids (jin-ye) of SP. > > SP yin deficiency syndrome is a SP-Yin-Qi insufficiency syndrome with > > SP-Yin-Blood or fluids insufficiency. > > In clinical practise this is called SP-yin or SP-Blood or SP-fluids > > insufficiency syndrome. > > > > Maiyinzhengzhi-book says: > > " Sp defc can be divided into yin and yang. > > With Sp-yin defc there is > > - Sp-blood damaged and dispersed > > - Sp-fire burning upwards > > - Sp-defc developing heat > > If one drinks warming tonics he will suffer from arising fire and yin > > will diminish, > > you must tonify SP-yin to withdraw Yang from its winning position. " > > > > So the excess-branch (shi-biao) on top of the SP-yin-deficiency > > syndrome > > is a " yin defc yang excess " syndrome of the SP. > > > > Main clinical observations, symptoms: > > no desire to drink and eat, food is not digested, belching, caoza*)- > > feeling and stomach pain, dry mouth, thirsty, dry stool, > > emaciation, dry red tongue, yellow or no tongue coating, thin and > > fast pulse. > > > > This syndrome is found in diseases like Stomach pain, obstipation, > > Gastrointestinal bleeding, Haematemesis. > > > > Differential diagnosis: ST-yin deficiency, L.I.-fluid deficiency, > > Heart and SP blood deficiency. > > > > (this is the translation of a fifth of the text, rest is desribing > > symptoms more detailed > > as described in ancient texts, which herbals and recipes are used by > > which authors, indepth > > differentialdiagnosis) > > > > *)caoza: a feeling of emptyness in the stomach, as if there is > > nothing inside, hungry without being hungry, > > burning heat without burning, pain without pain > > > > > > > > -- > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding > of > a problem.' > > Jiddu Krishnamurti > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Are you doing the low level laser? - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 05, 2007 8:54 PM Re: Re: SP yin def. vs ST yin def. Alon, She was a patient who came in for maintenance of glaucoma due to KD and LV yin and blood def. The SP yin def. was a one time diagnosis. After taking the herbs for one week, her mouth sores went away. She went back on a modified Ming mu di huang tang with added gou qi zi, ju hua and jue ming zi. k. On 3/5/07, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > John > How did she do? > > > > > > > > > > - > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Monday, March 05, 2007 6:22 PM > Re: Re: SP yin def. vs ST yin def. > > Thanks, this is really helpful. > The experience I've had with SP yin def. was a woman who had lower lip > mouth > sores, SP blood def. with heat. (this goes along with what you > translated). > My professor said that this was SP yin def. and we gave huang jing along > with Liu wei di huang... (shan yao...). > In the 2nd edition Bensky pg. 326, use sha shen and mai men dong with > huang > jing for SP/ST yin def. > > So there is a saying that the SP is almost never dry and the Stomach is > almost never damp. > Other than " hunger without being hungry " or " no desire to drink or eat " (SP > yin def) > vs over hungry or thirsty (ST yin def.) > how does this syndrome differentiate from ST yin def. with SP blood def. > Is it based on the channel flow? > > Going back to the woman with mouth sores, my professor claimed that if it > was on the upper lip, it would have been ST yin def. or ST fire. Bottom > lip > is SP channel (the end of the channel spreads across the tongue). Well the > herbs worked for her. > > Thanks again... > k. > > On 3/5/07, tayfx <aajohansen <aajohansen%40uni.de>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of > > Zang/Fu > > > patterns? > > > > There are not many students that want to learn from 3000pages thick > > books. Especially the modern " uni " versity has cropped ancient > > knowledge, on the other hand they published expensive thick > > speciality books. > > Schools edit books to attract students. > > Few people in China can afford thick books. > > > > You will find these patterns in " thicker " chinese books, > > and as there are different schools and practises (basic syndromes, > > syndromes concerning the whole body, zangfu syndromes, febrile > > diseases, shanghan syndromes etc.) to differentiate > > diseases you will find them better described in other categories. > > > > As there seems to be scarce information I just translated a text > > on SP yin deficiency > > from > > Differential diagnosis of TCM syndromes (2nd edition 2002 > > renminweishengchubanshe page321) > > > > SP has Yin-Qi and Yang-Qi. Yang-Qi of SP is SP-Qi and SP-Yang; thus > > Yin-Qi of SP is SP-Blood and fluids (jin-ye) of SP. > > SP yin deficiency syndrome is a SP-Yin-Qi insufficiency syndrome with > > SP-Yin-Blood or fluids insufficiency. > > In clinical practise this is called SP-yin or SP-Blood or SP-fluids > > insufficiency syndrome. > > > > Maiyinzhengzhi-book says: > > " Sp defc can be divided into yin and yang. > > With Sp-yin defc there is > > - Sp-blood damaged and dispersed > > - Sp-fire burning upwards > > - Sp-defc developing heat > > If one drinks warming tonics he will suffer from arising fire and yin > > will diminish, > > you must tonify SP-yin to withdraw Yang from its winning position. " > > > > So the excess-branch (shi-biao) on top of the SP-yin-deficiency > > syndrome > > is a " yin defc yang excess " syndrome of the SP. > > > > Main clinical observations, symptoms: > > no desire to drink and eat, food is not digested, belching, caoza*)- > > feeling and stomach pain, dry mouth, thirsty, dry stool, > > emaciation, dry red tongue, yellow or no tongue coating, thin and > > fast pulse. > > > > This syndrome is found in diseases like Stomach pain, obstipation, > > Gastrointestinal bleeding, Haematemesis. > > > > Differential diagnosis: ST-yin deficiency, L.I.-fluid deficiency, > > Heart and SP blood deficiency. > > > > (this is the translation of a fifth of the text, rest is desribing > > symptoms more detailed > > as described in ancient texts, which herbals and recipes are used by > > which authors, indepth > > differentialdiagnosis) > > > > *)caoza: a feeling of emptyness in the stomach, as if there is > > nothing inside, hungry without being hungry, > > burning heat without burning, pain without pain > > > > > > > > -- > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding > of > a problem.' > > Jiddu Krishnamurti > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.