Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Hi group, if there is still room to ask for information on these seldom heard or used patterns: Diagnosis and Treatment for: 1. SP Yin Def. 2. KD Excess The question is how and when are the differentiation of these patterns useful in practice and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of Zang/Fu patterns? Thanks, k. -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 John: In the Five Element world, this would be water counteracting on earth. Strenghen the earth meridians and/or sedate the water. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " " <johnkokko > Hi group, > if there is still room to ask for information on these seldom heard or used > patterns: > > Diagnosis and Treatment for: > > 1. SP Yin Def. > 2. KD Excess > > The question is how and when are the differentiation of these patterns > useful in practice > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of Zang/Fu > patterns? > > Thanks, k. > > > -- > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of > a problem.' > > Jiddu Krishnamurti > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 I thought the kidney was never excess Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology " " <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine SP yin def. / KD excess Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:51:08 -0800 Hi group, if there is still room to ask for information on these seldom heard or used patterns: Diagnosis and Treatment for: 1. SP Yin Def. 2. KD Excess The question is how and when are the differentiation of these patterns useful in practice and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of Zang/Fu patterns? Thanks, k. -- 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.' Jiddu Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 >I thought the kidney was never excess > I'd agree too... Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Kidney can not be excess????? HOwever, we may look it at a funny angle. in 5 elements : If the Earth, ( SP ? STO ) deficiency, it does not control the Water ( KI/UB ) then The water ( Kidneys ) becomes excess. The Kidneys outgrow and expands without control, is this not a kidneys excess condition??? If SP / STO not transform or transports its glucose and water, the glucose gets into the bloodstream and flows into the kidney causing diabetes, also water profusely pours into the UB and then into Kidneys. Do the kidney get excess here? WHat about the diabetes insipidus? The ADH is deficiency, not controlling the Kidney, water in the UB got excess or not controllable. Kidneys must overwork and empty the bladder. Is this not an excess ? How about the high blood pressrure, causing from excess adrenalin secretion? adrenalin in the kidneys stored or its production. It must be in excess to produce them???? Besides, if there is no excess there will be no deficiency? Kidneys is not exception, as I look at this way. Liv Yang ( LIv fire )excess comes from Liv YIn def. Liv YIn def comes from Kid Yin def, Kidney Yin def comes from Kid Yang excess ( This is not a true excess, but of its relative, this Kid Yang " Fire " will disturb Liv Yang and cause Liv Yang uprising )............ Is this also Kid excess??? We can see there are people who can have sex many times a day . Is this a kidney excess condition???? If it is a def how can he accomodate this, and where is this desire coming from ???? HOw about prostate? If someone has big prostate ( doe the prostate " its holding the sperms " belong to the kidney? ) or If someone does have a big kidney ( unusual circumstance )? Depend on how we look at and how we interpret them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Another example of editing in modern textbooks. The Zhong yi da ci dian/Great Dictionary of (Chinese language only) has two kidney repletion patterns, shen shih zheng/ kidney repletion pattern, and shen shih re/kidney repletion fire. In " Pathomechanisms of the Kidney " (not yet published, from Paradigm Press), it says the following: " Pathomechanisms related to abnormal physiological functioning of the kidney can be divided into the two major categories of vacuity and repletion. Since storing essential qi4 is the kidney’s main role, pathomechanisms of vacuity detriment are most common, manifesting in insufficiency of kidney essence, qi4, yin1, or yang2. Progressing into yin1-yang2 disharmony, the pathomechanical changes of reciprocal detriment of yin1 and yang2 can occur. Concrete mention of the pathomechanism of kidney repletion appeared rather late. After the existence of kidney repletion patterns was initially recognized in the early Spring and Autumn period, Chinese medicine went through a long developmental stage from the Song4 period on, during which authors either stated that the kidney never suffered from repletion patterns at all or mostly from vacuity and only rarely from repletion. Thus, the pathomechanism of kidney repletion gained wide-spread acceptance only gradually. Nevertheless, invading evil qi4 of the six excesses, collecting pathologic products, or cold, heat, dampness, phlegm, water, stagnant qi4, static blood, or lumps and stones can all obstruct the channels and network vessels of the kidney and the free flow of qi4 and blood in this viscus, forming the pathomechanism of kidney repletion. " I would point out that spleen yin vacuity, liver qi and yang vacuity, and kidney repletion patterns ARE controversial, and that these patterns have been debated for centuries. My contention is that we should be exposed to all the possibilities in pattern differentiation, so that we have more flexibility in diagnosis and are ready if and when such patterns appear. On Mar 4, 2007, at 4:21 AM, Patricia Jordan wrote: > I thought the kidney was never excess > > > > Sincerely, > Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology > > > > > > " " <johnkokko > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine > SP yin def. / KD excess > Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:51:08 -0800 > > Hi group, > if there is still room to ask for information on these seldom heard > or used > patterns: > > Diagnosis and Treatment for: > > 1. SP Yin Def. > 2. KD Excess > > The question is how and when are the differentiation of these patterns > useful in practice > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of > Zang/Fu > patterns? > > Thanks, k. > > > -- > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the > understanding of > a problem.' > > Jiddu Krishnamurti > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 > and why did TCM decide to edit them from the standard lexicon of Zang/Fu > patterns? There are not many students that want to learn from 3000pages thick books. Especially the modern " uni " versity has cropped ancient knowledge, on the other hand they published expensive thick speciality books. Schools edit books to attract students. Few people in China can afford thick books. You will find these patterns in " thicker " chinese books, and as there are different schools and practises (basic syndromes, syndromes concerning the whole body, zangfu syndromes, febrile diseases, shanghan syndromes etc.) to differentiate diseases you will find them better described in other categories. As there seems to be scarce information I just translated a text on SP yin deficiency from Differential diagnosis of TCM syndromes (2nd edition 2002 renminweishengchubanshe page321) SP has Yin-Qi and Yang-Qi. Yang-Qi of SP is SP-Qi and SP-Yang; thus Yin-Qi of SP is SP-Blood and fluids (jin-ye) of SP. SP yin deficiency syndrome is a SP-Yin-Qi insufficiency syndrome with SP-Yin-Blood or fluids insufficiency. In clinical practise this is called SP-yin or SP-Blood or SP-fluids insufficiency syndrome. Maiyinzhengzhi-book says: " Sp defc can be divided into yin and yang. With Sp-yin defc there is - Sp-blood damaged and dispersed - Sp-fire burning upwards - Sp-defc developing heat If one drinks warming tonics he will suffer from arising fire and yin will diminish, you must tonify SP-yin to withdraw Yang from its winning position. " So the excess-branch (shi-biao) on top of the SP-yin-deficiency syndrome is a " yin defc yang excess " syndrome of the SP. Main clinical observations, symptoms: no desire to drink and eat, food is not digested, belching, caoza*)- feeling and stomach pain, dry mouth, thirsty, dry stool, emaciation, dry red tongue, yellow or no tongue coating, thin and fast pulse. This syndrome is found in diseases like Stomach pain, obstipation, Gastrointestinal bleeding, Haematemesis. Differential diagnosis: ST-yin deficiency, L.I.-fluid deficiency, Heart and SP blood deficiency. (this is the translation of a fifth of the text, rest is desribing symptoms more detailed as described in ancient texts, which herbals and recipes are used by which authors, indepth differentialdiagnosis) *)caoza: a feeling of emptyness in the stomach, as if there is nothing inside, hungry without being hungry, burning heat without burning, pain without pain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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