LV yang deficiency--liver qi deficiency?

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

Maciocia says the following on pg 215 of his " Foundations " book:

 

" As the Liver ensures the smooth flow of Qi but has no part in the actual

production and supply of Qi, it does not have patterns involving deficiency of

Qi (although it does have patterns of deficiency of Blood and YIn). "

 

comments?

 

 

<zrosenbe wrote: Par,

Here is a quote from an upcoming translation of a Chinese text,

" Pathomechanisms of the Liver " , by Yan Shi-lin and Li Zheng-hua, to

be published by Paradigm Press:

 

" The unihibited orderly reaching of the qi dynamic and the upbearing

and warming functions of qi are all related to the liver's yang qi.

Liver yang vacuity can have different causes: If liver qi is

depressed for a long time, yang qi is worn and damaged as a

consequence. Alternatively, weak health in old age can deplete the

root of true yang and this can spread to liver yang. Or a direct

strike by a cold evil, or the passage and transmutation of diseases

from other viscera and bowels, or lack of/or inappropriate treatment

can damage liver yang. All of these can equally form the

pathomechanism of liver yang vacuity. "

 

In this text, there are several patterns associated with liver

yang vacuity, including " impaired warming (of the liver) " , liver yang

fall, and dual liver-stomach yang fall as well.

 

 

On Feb 22, 2007, at 6:25 AM, Par Scott wrote:

 

> I think one of the key factors is the timidity relating to liver/

> gallbladder

> emotional states. Again, I think this is why there aren't more TX

> plans for

> this disorder, it overlaps with other things too much for easy or

> clear

> diagnosis.

>

> Par

> -

> " yehuda frischman " <

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:37 AM

> RE: LV yang deficiency

>

> Tell me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be simply liver blood xu,

> with the

> additional signs of cold, but without the digestive disorders

> consistant

> with spleen yang xu as well as the low back pain consistant with

> kidney yang

> xu.

>

> wrote: Qin Bo-Wei

> says that signs of Liver yang deficiency are : ¡°Intimidation,

> headache, numbness, lack of warmth in the extremities¡± another

> place he

> says, ¡°Lassitude, inability to work, grief and timidity, deep,

> fine, and

> slow pulse¡± Medicinals recommended are: wu zhu yu, rou gui, yin

> yang huo,

> and formulas like Jiao Ai Tang.

>

> Hope this is of some help,

>

> ×£´ó¼ÒÐÂÄê¿ìÀÖ!

>

> -

>

> _____

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> john

> kokko

> Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:30 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> LV yang deficiency

>

> Hi all,

>

> Could there be some explanation about the LV yang deficiency pattern?

>

> I've seen this only in the context of Ikeda Masakazu's work

> and a bit in 5E,

> either with which I'm only familiar with their inclusion of this

> pattern,

> not with their definition or practice.

>

> Thank you in advance for the teachings.

>

> --

> 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> understanding of

> a problem.'

>

> Jiddu Krishnamurti

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Frischman et al,

 

The Japanese tradition supports yours and Mr. Maciocia's view as far as I

have understood!

 

A Liver Yang def in TCM would most likely be diagnosed as " Liver

deficiency/Cold " In the Japanese Tradition. (A Liver deficiency in the

Japanese tradition is always the same as a Liver Blood deficiency - NO Liver

Qi deficiency since Blood is moved by Qi governed by the Lung and not

actively by the Liver).

 

Liver Blood not being sufficient on a background of ie Kid or Sp def or as a

constitutional factor on it's own can/will impair Qi's ability to move

freely/smoothly and, as such, to provide heat and nourishment for activating

processes in the psyche (ie timidity, lack of resolve) and Soma (ie cold

limbs) (Blood/Ying Qi interaction) - Wood/Spring resonanse comes too mind -

and often this results in (local) Qi deficiencies as well as rebellious Qi

or even Blood stagnation.

 

Hope this was clear!

 

Best regards,

 

Thomas Sorensen

PA, RAB

 

Denmark

 

2007/2/23, :

>

> Dear Z'ev,

>

> Maciocia says the following on pg 215 of his " Foundations " book:

>

> " As the Liver ensures the smooth flow of Qi but has no part in the actual

> production and supply of Qi, it does not have patterns involving deficiency

> of Qi (although it does have patterns of deficiency of Blood and YIn). "

>

> comments?

>

> <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> wrote: Par,

> Here is a quote from an upcoming translation of a Chinese text,

> " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " , by Yan Shi-lin and Li Zheng-hua, to

> be published by Paradigm Press:

>

> " The unihibited orderly reaching of the qi dynamic and the upbearing

> and warming functions of qi are all related to the liver's yang qi.

> Liver yang vacuity can have different causes: If liver qi is

> depressed for a long time, yang qi is worn and damaged as a

> consequence. Alternatively, weak health in old age can deplete the

> root of true yang and this can spread to liver yang. Or a direct

> strike by a cold evil, or the passage and transmutation of diseases

> from other viscera and bowels, or lack of/or inappropriate treatment

> can damage liver yang. All of these can equally form the

> pathomechanism of liver yang vacuity. "

>

> In this text, there are several patterns associated with liver

> yang vacuity, including " impaired warming (of the liver) " , liver yang

> fall, and dual liver-stomach yang fall as well.

>

>

> On Feb 22, 2007, at 6:25 AM, Par Scott wrote:

>

> > I think one of the key factors is the timidity relating to liver/

> > gallbladder

> > emotional states. Again, I think this is why there aren't more TX

> > plans for

> > this disorder, it overlaps with other things too much for easy or

> > clear

> > diagnosis.

> >

> > Par

> > -

> > " yehuda frischman " < <%40>>

> > To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> >

> > Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:37 AM

> > RE: LV yang deficiency

> >

> > Tell me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be simply liver blood xu,

> > with the

> > additional signs of cold, but without the digestive disorders

> > consistant

> > with spleen yang xu as well as the low back pain consistant with

> > kidney yang

> > xu.

> >

> >

<<%40Chinese Medicine>>

> wrote: Qin Bo-Wei

> > says that signs of Liver yang deficiency are : " Intimidation,

> > headache, numbness, lack of warmth in the extremities " another

> > place he

> > says, " Lassitude, inability to work, grief and timidity, deep,

> > fine, and

> > slow pulse " Medicinals recommended are: wu zhu yu, rou gui, yin

> > yang huo,

> > and formulas like Jiao Ai Tang.

> >

> > Hope this is of some help,

> >

> > ×£´ó¼ÒÐÂÄê¿ìÀÖ!

> >

> > -

> >

> > _____

> >

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of

> > john

> > kokko

> > Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:30 AM

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > LV yang deficiency

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > Could there be some explanation about the LV yang deficiency pattern?

> >

> > I've seen this only in the context of Ikeda Masakazu's work

> > and a bit in 5E,

> > either with which I'm only familiar with their inclusion of this

> > pattern,

> > not with their definition or practice.

> >

> > Thank you in advance for the teachings.

> >

> > --

> > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > understanding of

> > a problem.'

> >

> > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

My thoughts are that any diagnostic category or language we use only

makes sense in so far as it leads to accurate treatment. There is

nothing in Chinese medicine that is purely descriptive with no

clinical relevance. With this in mind - the only reason to have a

category like Liver Yang or Liver Qi deficiency - is if it adds

something to our clinical repertoire that is not described in any

other way.

 

Clearly some of our predecessors thought it was a necessary category:

(Quotes from a JCM #71 article)

 

 

The Yellow Emperor’s Classic of Medicine (Huangdi neijing),

it was stated right in the first chapter “when a man is at the

age of seven by eight (56 years old), his Liver qi becomes

weak, and his tendons are not able to move.â€3 The classic

then further explained: “When a man is around the age of

fifty, his Liver qi begins to decline. The physical Liver

becomes thinner. Bile secretion is reduced and vision de-

creases.â€4 In the chapter on dream analysis, moreover, the

classic advises: “With Liver qi deficiency one will dream of

trees and grasses or of sleeping under a tree.†In another

place, the text warns that “Liver qi deficiency will cause a

person to become frightened.â€

 

Chao Yuanfang (570–632), for

instance, summarised the clinical signs and symptoms of

Liver qi and yang deficiency in his influential compendium,

General Treatise on the Causes and Symptoms of Diseases

(Zhubing yuanhou lun): “If the Liver qi is deficient, one may

suffer from blurred vision, contraction of the tendons,

tightness under the ribcage, shortness of breath, ridged and

thin nails, green complexion, and a tendency to be sad and

scared.†Furthermore, he described the sensation of Liver

qi deficiency as the feeling of “a refugee being chased

around.†To remedy this situation, he concludes, the Liver

qi must be tonified.

The Ming Dynasty’s most famous medical scholar, Zhang

Jingyue (1563–1640), also associated tendon problems with

Liver yang deficiency. He proposed that if “one has spasms,

convulsion, pain, or numbness, this is due to Liver yang

deficiency failing to nourish the tendons.â€

Later, the Liver disease expert Wang Xugao (1798–1862)

developed thirteen specific treatments for Liver disease.

These included protocols for tonifying Liver qi and warm-

ing Liver yang.

 

Zhang Xichun (1860–1933), in

his influential book Chinese at Heart But Western Where

Appropriate: Essays Investigating an Integrated Form of

Medicine (Yixue zhongzhong canxi lu), revealed anecdotes

about his own clinical experience. “Since I started my

practice, I have encountered many cases with Liver qi

deficiency and subsequent failure of Liver qi to drain and

course. To rectify these problems, I have used many herbs

to tonify the Liver yin and blood but with little effect. I

decided to add Huang Qi (Radix Astragali) in large doses to

tonify Liver qi, and the therapeutic results were immedi-

ately observed. The opinion that the Liver has no qi defi-

ciency is not true.â€

 

For me, there are a few things I keep in mind.

 

One is that the Liver likes orderly reaching and is deficient when it

cannot do this. Tonification of the Zang with herbal medicine works

in a Ko cycle relationship so the Liver is tonified by the flavor of

the Lung - Pungent. In this sense, when we course the liver with

pungent formulas such as Chai Hu Shu Gan Tang - we are tonifying the

Liver - i.e. helping it reach and spread.

 

Chapter 22 of the Nei Jing:

 

“When the Liver desires to disperse, quickly eat pungent

to disperse as it is tonified with pungent and purged with

sour "

 

Zhang Jing-Yue says

" Wood does not like to be depressed and therefore it desires to be

spread with

pungent. Complying with nature is to tonify; opposing

nature is to purge. As the Liver likes to spread and has

an aversion to being astringed, pungent tonifies and sour

purges ...

He continues in this way to describe the application of

the tastes according to the control cycle in each of the five

zang organs. "

 

Wu Kun comments in his

Medical Formulas Examination (yifang kao): “To comply

with nature is to tonify. To go against nature is to purge.â€

 

So it is interesting that to give the Liver strength, to tonify it,

is to actually help it discharge! A bit confusing but hopefully this

helps clear it up.

 

Secondly - diagnostically then we will see 1. signs of Liver

depression, Yu4, éƒ with 2. signs of deficiency. What signs of

deficiency? This is my third point:

 

Thirdly, the strength required to help the Liver rise and spread does

not come directly from the Liver itself. 1. The Liver is Yang within

Yin and that Yang comes from the Kidney Yang. So diagnostically you

will see signs of deficiency of Kidney warmth.

2. In addition, if the Earth is weak, it cannot support and hold the

Liver just like a tree cannot grow if there is no soil to bank it up.

The deficiency that is effecting the Liver's ability to rise and

spread will either be from the Yang within it or the Earth Qi around

it. So diagnostically you will see signs of Spleen Qi sinking

3. already mentioned is the Lung's ability to open (so the use of

pungent) Diagnostically you will see the signs of Liver depression.

 

This brings us to treatment: All of our predecessors use three

methods to " tonify the Liver Qi and Yang " . 1. Pungent herbs to open

the Liver. 2. Herbs to brace the Spleen like Huang Qi (main one)

Chai Hu, Sheng Ma, Bai Zhu.....3. Herbs to warm the Kidney Yang (like

Zev said Rou Gui, Yin Yang Huo and then Wu Zhu Yu or Wu Yao to guide

it to the Liver)

 

For me, this leaves me with one question which has to do with the

Liver Blood - clearly the signs and symptoms listed above are ones we

would attribute to Liver Blood deficiency: ridged nails, tight

tendons, blurred vision. So why is nourishing the blood not here as

a treatment principle? I think the answer to this lies in what Nam

Nguyen wrote in a previous email about the cooking pot and the fire.

The Yin aspect of the Liver, the blood, is deficient but it is

because the Yang is not transforming the Yin into physiological form,

i.e. blood. So, there is blood deficiency but it is a result of the

Qi and Yang deficiency.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Sharon

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

The authors of the " Pathomechanisms " text give these sources in

the Chinese medical literature:

 

1) the Su Wen (Methods of Treating Visceral Qi in Accordance with

the Seasons)

 

2) Zhong Zang Jing (Treatise on the Central Viscera by Hua Tuo: On

the Pulses and Patterns of Vacuity and Repletion, Cold and Heat, Life

and Death, and Favorable and Unfavorable Shifts in the Liver)

 

3) Sun Si-miao's Qianjinyaofang (Liver Vacuity and Repletion)

 

 

4) works by Chen Yan and Wang Huai-yin in the Song dynasty.

 

More recent physicians such as Tang Li-shan describes it as follows:

" when liver yang is vacuous and unable to upbear, the stomach lacks

qi, and the spleen has no strength for transformation. " Pu Fu-zhou

states " liver yang vacuity results in feebleness of the sinews,

aversion to wind, susceptibility to fright and fear, cold in the

scrotum, dampness in the genitals, and hunger with no desire to eat " .

 

 

 

On Feb 23, 2007, at 12:18 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Z'ev,

>

> Maciocia says the following on pg 215 of his " Foundations " book:

>

> " As the Liver ensures the smooth flow of Qi but has no part in the

> actual production and supply of Qi, it does not have patterns

> involving deficiency of Qi (although it does have patterns of

> deficiency of Blood and YIn). "

>

> comments?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

In this type of discussion, source texts become very important.

Which texts in the Japanese tradition are you citing, so that we may

discuss this further. The reason I am asking is that there may or

may not be differences between the 'meridian therapy' approaches to

acupuncture, largely based on the Nan Jing, which do not use the same

zang-fu based pattern differentiation as the herbal traditions.

 

 

On Feb 23, 2007, at 1:13 AM, Thomas Sørensen wrote:

 

> Dear Mr. Frischman et al,

>

> The Japanese tradition supports yours and Mr. Maciocia's view as

> far as I

> have understood!

>

> A Liver Yang def in TCM would most likely be diagnosed as " Liver

> deficiency/Cold " In the Japanese Tradition. (A Liver deficiency in the

> Japanese tradition is always the same as a Liver Blood deficiency -

> NO Liver

> Qi deficiency since Blood is moved by Qi governed by the Lung and not

> actively by the Liver).

>

> Liver Blood not being sufficient on a background of ie Kid or Sp

> def or as a

> constitutional factor on it's own can/will impair Qi's ability to move

> freely/smoothly and, as such, to provide heat and nourishment for

> activating

> processes in the psyche (ie timidity, lack of resolve) and Soma (ie

> cold

> limbs) (Blood/Ying Qi interaction) - Wood/Spring resonanse comes

> too mind -

> and often this results in (local) Qi deficiencies as well as

> rebellious Qi

> or even Blood stagnation.

>

> Hope this was clear!

>

> Best regards,

>

> Thomas Sorensen

> PA, RAB

>

> Denmark

>

> 2007/2/23, :

> >

> > Dear Z'ev,

> >

> > Maciocia says the following on pg 215 of his " Foundations " book:

> >

> > " As the Liver ensures the smooth flow of Qi but has no part in

> the actual

> > production and supply of Qi, it does not have patterns involving

> deficiency

> > of Qi (although it does have patterns of deficiency of Blood and

> YIn). "

> >

> > comments?

> >

> > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> wrote: Par,

> > Here is a quote from an upcoming translation of a Chinese text,

> > " Pathomechanisms of the Liver " , by Yan Shi-lin and Li Zheng-hua, to

> > be published by Paradigm Press:

> >

> > " The unihibited orderly reaching of the qi dynamic and the upbearing

> > and warming functions of qi are all related to the liver's yang qi.

> > Liver yang vacuity can have different causes: If liver qi is

> > depressed for a long time, yang qi is worn and damaged as a

> > consequence. Alternatively, weak health in old age can deplete the

> > root of true yang and this can spread to liver yang. Or a direct

> > strike by a cold evil, or the passage and transmutation of diseases

> > from other viscera and bowels, or lack of/or inappropriate treatment

> > can damage liver yang. All of these can equally form the

> > pathomechanism of liver yang vacuity. "

> >

> > In this text, there are several patterns associated with liver

> > yang vacuity, including " impaired warming (of the liver) " , liver

> yang

> > fall, and dual liver-stomach yang fall as well.

> >

> >

> > On Feb 22, 2007, at 6:25 AM, Par Scott wrote:

> >

> > > I think one of the key factors is the timidity relating to liver/

> > > gallbladder

> > > emotional states. Again, I think this is why there aren't more TX

> > > plans for

> > > this disorder, it overlaps with other things too much for easy or

> > > clear

> > > diagnosis.

> > >

> > > Par

> > > -

> > > " yehuda frischman " < <%

> 40>>

> > > To:

> <Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi

> cine%40>

> > >

> > > Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:37 AM

> > > RE: LV yang deficiency

> > >

> > > Tell me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be simply liver blood xu,

> > > with the

> > > additional signs of cold, but without the digestive disorders

> > > consistant

> > > with spleen yang xu as well as the low back pain consistant with

> > > kidney yang

> > > xu.

> > >

> > > <<%

> 40Chinese Medicine>>

> > wrote: Qin Bo-Wei

> > > says that signs of Liver yang deficiency are : " Intimidation,

> > > headache, numbness, lack of warmth in the extremities " another

> > > place he

> > > says, " Lassitude, inability to work, grief and timidity, deep,

> > > fine, and

> > > slow pulse " Medicinals recommended are: wu zhu yu, rou gui, yin

> > > yang huo,

> > > and formulas like Jiao Ai Tang.

> > >

> > > Hope this is of some help,

> > >

> > > ç¥å¤§å®¶æ–°å¹´å¿«ä¹!

> > >

> > > -

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > >

> Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_

> Medicine%40>

> > >

> [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chine

> se_Medicine%40>]

> > On Behalf Of

> > > john

> > > kokko

> > > Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:30 AM

> > >

> To:Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Me

> dicine%40>

> > > LV yang deficiency

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > Could there be some explanation about the LV yang deficiency

> pattern?

> > >

> > > I've seen this only in the context of Ikeda Masakazu's work

> > > and a bit in 5E,

> > > either with which I'm only familiar with their inclusion of this

> > > pattern,

> > > not with their definition or practice.

> > >

> > > Thank you in advance for the teachings.

> > >

> > > --

> > > 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

> > > understanding of

> > > a problem.'

> > >

> > > Jiddu Krishnamurti

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:18:21 0500, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

 

>>One is that the Liver likes orderly reaching

and is deficient when it cannot do this.

Tonification of the Zang with herbal medicine

works in a Ko cycle relationship so the Liver is

tonified by the flavor of the Lung - Pungent. In

this sense, when we course the liver with

pungent formulas such as Chai Hu Shu Gan Tang -

we are tonifying the Liver - i.e. helping it reach and spread.

 

>>Chapter 22 of the Nei Jing:

“When the Liver desires to disperse, quickly

eat pungent to disperse as it is tonified with pungent and purged with sour "

 

>>[later] 3. already mentioned is the Lung's

ability to open (so the use of pungent)

Diagnostically you will see the signs of Liver depression.

 

Often in discussing SuWen medicine, and further

on, prior to the zang-ification of CM in

Song-Yin-Yuan times, Jeffery Yuen interprets that

the lungs were considered to provide the moving

action for qi, as well as fluids, in many aspects

of physiology. And that the emphasis on the liver

taking on this kind of function were detailed

later. (I can't provide detailed textual

documentation at this time, but I will try to ask

him about this for more specifics.)

 

One can see, for instance, the parallel aspect in

the definitions (as we know them): the lungs

disperse and descend, the liver spreads and ascends.

 

The gongxiapai / School of Attacking and Purging

might provide a pivotal point in this evolution,

as lungs are there the primary locus (weiqi

front-line troops), but the liver provides the

indispensable support (yingqi/blood supply-lines

and base-camps). And the therapies in this school

are quite physical. The harshness here probably

contributed to the reaction of the Earth School

and its swing of emphasis into a more yin, zang perspective.

 

One possible line of argumentation might be that

the earlier view was based more in channel system

energetics (e.g. jin/sinew channels and physical

motion (qi/yang); luo-channels and visible,

palpable, painful Sx (blood)), and the more

empirically obvious movement of the lungs (qi)

(and the heart (blood) together the qi of the

chest). Then, across history, a sense of the more

subtle quality of physiological motion gradually

emerged. A culmination can be seen in the modern

bio-medical understanding of the vast repertoire

of metabolic functions associated with the liver organ.

 

I offer this less in the sense of mixing the

metaphors of Asian and Western views, and more in

the sense that " the human body reads neither

Asian nor Western medical theory " . And both

traditions developed ever more refinement across

the centuries, at times in parallel.

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/698 - Release 2/23/2007 4:39

AM

[Guest guest]

Sharon and group,

 

 

 

The flavor issue is not as cut and dry, I do not think is completely

accurate (or a bit misleading) to say, " So it is interesting that to give

the Liver strength, to tonify it,

 

is to actually help it discharge! " (by coursing). Or " Liver is tonified by

the flavor of

 

the Lung - Pungent " - It all depends on the problem and point of view,

people use words in interesting ways.

 

 

 

For example,

 

 

 

In the jin gui yao lue it says, " In liver illness, supplement with sour

medicinals, assisted by bitter medicinals. To augment this, use

sweet-tasting medicinals to regulate it. "

 

 

 

Qin Bo-Wei, puts for these four principles for treatment.

 

 

 

1. When supplementing the Liver, use sour flavors.

2. When relaxing the Liver, use sweet flavors

3. When coursing the Liver, use acrid flavors.

4. When clearing the Liver, use bitter flavors.

 

 

 

IMO, it really just comes down to the imbalance at hand. If there is a yin

(/blood) deficiency then one uses sweet and sour medicinals to transform

yin. If there is fire, use bitter and cold. IF there is deficiency in

fluids, use sweet and cold. And if there is stagnation (or to promote yang)

use acrid and sweet.

 

 

 

Anything that clears up the imbalance can be said to strengthen the liver

(and allow it to perform its function normally). It really is a sematical

issue, IMO.

 

If there is primarily blood deficiency then obviously liver strength is

obtained by increasing blood (not by coursing with acrid medicinals). This

will therefore allow the Liver to free-course. So sour, acrid, bitter, and

sweet, all can aid the liver and increase its " strength " . QBW basically says

that " medicinals used appropriately to disinhibit the function of the liver

viscus. supplement [it]. " and ones used inappropriately drain it. He

further states " Although the principles of draining and supplementation are

dissimilar, they have a single purpose, which is to supplement " [the liver].

 

 

 

So when the NeiJing says use acrid to supplement it and sour to dissipate it

this is only one piece of the puzzle. For example, sweet and sour can

supplement the liver and also dissipate it (meaning have a harmful effect)!

 

 

 

IMO, clinical practice is clear about this. If one moves someone's Liver too

much (without proper supplementation) you cause harm. IF you supplement too

much you clog the mechanism and prevent free-coursing.

 

 

 

Further comments,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sharon

weizenbaum

Friday, February 23, 2007 6:18 AM

 

 

For me, there are a few things I keep in mind.

 

One is that the Liver likes orderly reaching and is deficient when it

cannot do this. Tonification of the Zang with herbal medicine works

in a Ko cycle relationship so the Liver is tonified by the flavor of

the Lung - Pungent. In this sense, when we course the liver with

pungent formulas such as Chai Hu Shu Gan Tang - we are tonifying the

Liver - i.e. helping it reach and spread.

 

Chapter 22 of the Nei Jing:

 

" When the Liver desires to disperse, quickly eat pungent

to disperse as it is tonified with pungent and purged with

sour "

 

Zhang Jing-Yue says

" Wood does not like to be depressed and therefore it desires to be

spread with

pungent. Complying with nature is to tonify; opposing

nature is to purge. As the Liver likes to spread and has

an aversion to being astringed, pungent tonifies and sour

purges ...

He continues in this way to describe the application of

the tastes according to the control cycle in each of the five

zang organs. "

 

Wu Kun comments in his

Medical Formulas Examination (yifang kao): " To comply

with nature is to tonify. To go against nature is to purge. "

 

So it is interesting that to give the Liver strength, to tonify it,

is to actually help it discharge! A bit confusing but hopefully this

helps clear it up.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon and group,

 

The flavor issue is not as cut and dry, I do not think is completely

accurate (or a bit misleading) to say, " So it is interesting that to

give

the Liver strength, to tonify it,

 

is to actually help it discharge! " (by coursing). Or " Liver is

tonified by

the flavor of

 

the Lung - Pungent " - It all depends on the problem and point of view,

people use words in interesting ways.

 

For example,

 

In the jin gui yao lue it says, " In liver illness, supplement with sour

medicinals, assisted by bitter medicinals. To augment this, use

sweet-tasting medicinals to regulate it. "

 

Qin Bo-Wei, puts for these four principles for treatment.

 

1. When supplementing the Liver, use sour flavors.

2. When relaxing the Liver, use sweet flavors

3. When coursing the Liver, use acrid flavors.

4. When clearing the Liver, use bitter flavors.

 

IMO, it really just comes down to the imbalance at hand. If there is

a yin

(/blood) deficiency then one uses sweet and sour medicinals to transform

yin. If there is fire, use bitter and cold. IF there is deficiency in

fluids, use sweet and cold. And if there is stagnation (or to promote

yang)

use acrid and sweet.

 

Anything that clears up the imbalance can be said to strengthen the

liver

(and allow it to perform its function normally). It really is a

sematical

issue, IMO.

 

If there is primarily blood deficiency then obviously liver strength is

obtained by increasing blood (not by coursing with acrid medicinals).

This

will therefore allow the Liver to free-course. So sour, acrid,

bitter, and

sweet, all can aid the liver and increase its " strength " . QBW

basically says

that " medicinals used appropriately to disinhibit the function of the

liver

viscus. supplement [it]. " and ones used inappropriately drain it. He

further states " Although the principles of draining and

supplementation are

dissimilar, they have a single purpose, which is to supplement " [the

liver].

 

So when the NeiJing says use acrid to supplement it and sour to

dissipate it

this is only one piece of the puzzle. For example, sweet and sour can

supplement the liver and also dissipate it (meaning have a harmful

effect)!

 

IMO, clinical practice is clear about this. If one moves someone's

Liver too

much (without proper supplementation) you cause harm. IF you

supplement too

much you clog the mechanism and prevent free-coursing.

 

Further comments,

 

-

 

 

Well put Jason!

 

I agree that flavors are not so simple. My comments were directed

particularly to the question of whether Liver Qi and Yang deficiency

are " real " and what to do about it if they are.

 

The flavor I have the most difficulty getting my mind around is the

salty flavor - What does it actually do in the body?

 

I know it softens hardness and I often imagine this the way salt will

soften a piece of eggplant or pull water out of a swollen ankle to

make it softer. It osmotically shifts the water from one place to

another. Mang Xiao pulls water into the intestines....Xuan Shen and

Mu Li soften hard lumps this way.

 

I think what confuses me is that the salty flavor is both moistening

and drying. Like eating too much salty food - you wake up puffy with

a really dry mouth....So, is there a way to say exactly what it is

that salty moistens and what it drys?

 

Nei Jing Su Wen says:

 

“If one eats excess salt then vessels coagulate and change

colour;

 

and

 

" When the taste is overly salty, the qi of the great bones is

taxed and muscles shorten and there is oppression of Heart qi. "

 

 

Zhang Jing Yue's comments

Salty enters the Kidney and Kidney governs bones, so an

excess of salty damages the Kidney and taxes the qi of the

great bones. (‘Tax’ here means to severely bind). Salty goes

to the blood, thus when the blood is damaged the flesh

of the muscles shorten and contract. Salty is the taste of

water; excess water damages fire and therefore Heart qi

is oppressed.

 

 

In his Compendium of Materia Medica Ming dynasty

herbalist Li Shizhen combines the Neijing instructions

" When the heart desires to be soft, quickly eat salty to soften it:

Bie Jia (Amydae Sinensis Carapax) is salty and enters the

blood. The Heart is in charge of the blood and when the

Heart desires to be softened there is clearly the presence

of hardness. Here the hardness is in the blood in the form

of blood clots or masses. Bie Jia is the shell of carnivorous,

i.e. ‘blood-eating’, turtle and dissolves masses due to

blood stasis. This is because it is tonified with salty: Gui

Ban (Testudinis Plastrum) enters the blood layer and

replenishes fluid deficiency to control the imperial fire. Gui

Ban increases nutritive fluids to allow fire to be contained,

thus allowing for the physiological descent of fire to warm

the Kidney. "

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

Sharon

 

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

413-549-4021

sweiz

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon and all,

 

I'm wondering if the translation of " salty " from the original characters

holds true for our metaphorical understanding of this term?

Can someone elaborate on the original terms for the five flavors...

 

Also, we are taught that the five flavors, which correspond to the five

sounds and five colors, are more than just five " tastes " .

 

Can there be discussion about the differences/similarities between energetic

" flavors " of herbs and subjective " tastes " of herbs?

 

Thank you.

k.

 

 

On 2/25/07, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

>

> Sharon and group,

>

> The flavor issue is not as cut and dry, I do not think is completely

> accurate (or a bit misleading) to say, " So it is interesting that to

> give

> the Liver strength, to tonify it,

>

> is to actually help it discharge! " (by coursing). Or " Liver is

> tonified by

> the flavor of

>

> the Lung - Pungent " - It all depends on the problem and point of view,

> people use words in interesting ways.

>

> For example,

>

> In the jin gui yao lue it says, " In liver illness, supplement with sour

> medicinals, assisted by bitter medicinals. To augment this, use

> sweet-tasting medicinals to regulate it. "

>

> Qin Bo-Wei, puts for these four principles for treatment.

>

> 1. When supplementing the Liver, use sour flavors.

> 2. When relaxing the Liver, use sweet flavors

> 3. When coursing the Liver, use acrid flavors.

> 4. When clearing the Liver, use bitter flavors.

>

> IMO, it really just comes down to the imbalance at hand. If there is

> a yin

> (/blood) deficiency then one uses sweet and sour medicinals to transform

> yin. If there is fire, use bitter and cold. IF there is deficiency in

> fluids, use sweet and cold. And if there is stagnation (or to promote

> yang)

> use acrid and sweet.

>

> Anything that clears up the imbalance can be said to strengthen the

> liver

> (and allow it to perform its function normally). It really is a

> sematical

> issue, IMO.

>

> If there is primarily blood deficiency then obviously liver strength is

> obtained by increasing blood (not by coursing with acrid medicinals).

> This

> will therefore allow the Liver to free-course. So sour, acrid,

> bitter, and

> sweet, all can aid the liver and increase its " strength " . QBW

> basically says

> that " medicinals used appropriately to disinhibit the function of the

> liver

> viscus. supplement [it]. " and ones used inappropriately drain it. He

> further states " Although the principles of draining and

> supplementation are

> dissimilar, they have a single purpose, which is to supplement " [the

> liver].

>

> So when the NeiJing says use acrid to supplement it and sour to

> dissipate it

> this is only one piece of the puzzle. For example, sweet and sour can

> supplement the liver and also dissipate it (meaning have a harmful

> effect)!

>

> IMO, clinical practice is clear about this. If one moves someone's

> Liver too

> much (without proper supplementation) you cause harm. IF you

> supplement too

> much you clog the mechanism and prevent free-coursing.

>

> Further comments,

>

> -

>

>

> Well put Jason!

>

> I agree that flavors are not so simple. My comments were directed

> particularly to the question of whether Liver Qi and Yang deficiency

> are " real " and what to do about it if they are.

>

> The flavor I have the most difficulty getting my mind around is the

> salty flavor - What does it actually do in the body?

>

> I know it softens hardness and I often imagine this the way salt will

> soften a piece of eggplant or pull water out of a swollen ankle to

> make it softer. It osmotically shifts the water from one place to

> another. Mang Xiao pulls water into the intestines....Xuan Shen and

> Mu Li soften hard lumps this way.

>

> I think what confuses me is that the salty flavor is both moistening

> and drying. Like eating too much salty food - you wake up puffy with

> a really dry mouth....So, is there a way to say exactly what it is

> that salty moistens and what it drys?

>

> Nei Jing Su Wen says:

>

> " If one eats excess salt then vessels coagulate and change

> colour;

>

> and

>

> " When the taste is overly salty, the qi of the great bones is

> taxed and muscles shorten and there is oppression of Heart qi. "

>

>

> Zhang Jing Yue's comments

> Salty enters the Kidney and Kidney governs bones, so an

> excess of salty damages the Kidney and taxes the qi of the

> great bones. ('Tax' here means to severely bind). Salty goes

> to the blood, thus when the blood is damaged the flesh

> of the muscles shorten and contract. Salty is the taste of

> water; excess water damages fire and therefore Heart qi

> is oppressed.

>

>

> In his Compendium of Materia Medica Ming dynasty

> herbalist Li Shizhen combines the Neijing instructions

> " When the heart desires to be soft, quickly eat salty to soften it:

> Bie Jia (Amydae Sinensis Carapax) is salty and enters the

> blood. The Heart is in charge of the blood and when the

> Heart desires to be softened there is clearly the presence

> of hardness. Here the hardness is in the blood in the form

> of blood clots or masses. Bie Jia is the shell of carnivorous,

> i.e. 'blood-eating', turtle and dissolves masses due to

> blood stasis. This is because it is tonified with salty: Gui

> Ban (Testudinis Plastrum) enters the blood layer and

> replenishes fluid deficiency to control the imperial fire. Gui

> Ban increases nutritive fluids to allow fire to be contained,

> thus allowing for the physiological descent of fire to warm

> the Kidney. "

>

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> Sharon

>

>

> Sharon Weizenbaum

> 86 Henry Street

> Amherst, MA 01002

> 413-549-4021

> sweiz

> www.whitepinehealingarts.com

>

>

>

>

>