Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi all I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my area to be employed by an infertility clinic .Will mostly be working with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to research protocol of session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 mins after.Wondering if anyone else doing this type of work?Anyone know if during research patient remained lying on same couch during acupuncture and transfer.I shall be carrying out acu in seperate room and then they are moved for transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness?Does it have to be " 30 " mins pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling the pressure not to mess up!! Thanks Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi Sharon, Do you practice herbal medicine as well? There is an interesting research article published in the latest edition of CMT on IVF and Chinese herbal medicine, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=186 If you need any tips of acupuncture and IVF, check out the book by Lifang Liang titled Acupuncture & IVF: Increase IVF Success by 40-60%, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product.php?xProd=164 & xSec=171 Regards Attilio Chinese Medicine , " sharon391362 " <sharon.campbell8 wrote: > > Hi all > I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my > area to be employed by an infertility clinic .Will mostly be working > with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to research protocol of > session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 mins after.Wondering > if anyone else doing this type of work?Anyone know if during research > patient remained lying on same couch during acupuncture and transfer.I > shall be carrying out acu in seperate room and then they are moved for > transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness?Does it have to be " 30 " mins > pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling the pressure not to mess up!! > Thanks > Sharon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Sharon, I'd recommend getting yourself a copy of Dr. Lifang Liang's book too. She detailed the process working with IVF. She has a set of herbal prescriptions and variations too. Mike L. <attiliodalberto wrote: Hi Sharon, Do you practice herbal medicine as well? There is an interesting research article published in the latest edition of CMT on IVF and Chinese herbal medicine, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=186 If you need any tips of acupuncture and IVF, check out the book by Lifang Liang titled Acupuncture & IVF: Increase IVF Success by 40-60%, see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/product.php?xProd=164 & xSec=171 Regards Attilio Chinese Medicine , " sharon391362 " <sharon.campbell8 wrote: > > Hi all > I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my > area to be employed by an infertility clinic .Will mostly be working > with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to research protocol of > session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 mins after.Wondering > if anyone else doing this type of work?Anyone know if during research > patient remained lying on same couch during acupuncture and transfer.I > shall be carrying out acu in seperate room and then they are moved for > transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness?Does it have to be " 30 " mins > pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling the pressure not to mess up!! > Thanks > Sharon > Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi Sharon I do this acupuncture with some of my patients. One of the clinic aloud acupuncturist to come and do the acupuncture. In my case patients are in the bed while the personal checks BP, temperature... At that moment I do the acupuncture. After that they take them to a different room where they do the procedure. When they are back, I do acupuncture again.. They use moving beds so I really do not know if patients are transfered from one bed to another. It actually never bothered me. I think that NOT to work at such clinic giving more benefits to patients (for you it probably opposite, you get a stable income), because you treat them, you correct their BBT and treat the root. If they have a right BBT they will have more chances to get pregnant with IVF with or no acupuncture assistance. We improve the results with acupuncture by 60%. Still every second (almost) patient will loose. That is why when infertility patient comes to me I try to buy out time to treat them first and than to assist with IVF. Tatiana I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my > area to be employed by an infertility clinic .Will mostly be working > with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to research protocol of > session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 mins after.Wondering > if anyone else doing this type of work?Anyone know if during research > patient remained lying on same couch during acupuncture and transfer.I > shall be carrying out acu in seperate room and then they are moved for > transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness?Does it have to be " 30 " mins > pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling the pressure not to mess up!! > Thanks > Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi Sharon, I do a lot of pre and post IVF acupuncture. I also treat a lot of infertility in general. Each fertility clinic has their own system as far as moving the patient. I've had pretty good success just doing the protocol even if the timing is off by a few minutes here and there and if the patient is moved or not. I've even had the patient drive straight from the fertility clinic to my office for their post-IVF treatment. Get those protocol points down pat and get the timing down as best you can. 30 minutes pre and post is optimal. Often times the woman is slightly sedated with a valium, so for them the time fly's. I like to do some gentle massage and pressure on the feet and neck after the needles are out. I also believe that establishing a relationship with the patient before the transfer is important. Perhaps 2 or 3 treatments minimum a few weeks before the transfer just so they can have a better idea what to expect. I know about the pressure you feel. So much is on the line for these patients and you don't want to mess anything up. I believe that getting pregnant is such a mysterious process that we just barely understand. Do what you are trained to do, but the results really aren't up to us. This isn't something that can be forced to happen, like forcing a plant to grow. We can make the conditions as optimal as possible, but the growth itself is up to the most mysterious process of life itself. Check out Randine Lewis' book " The Infertility Cure " . I recommend this book to my patients when they start their infertility work with me. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sharon391362 Wednesday, February 21, 2007 4:48 AM Chinese Medicine infertility clinic Hi all I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my area to be employed by an infertility clinic .Will mostly be working with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to research protocol of session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 mins after.Wondering if anyone else doing this type of work?Anyone know if during research patient remained lying on same couch during acupuncture and transfer.I shall be carrying out acu in seperate room and then they are moved for transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness?Does it have to be " 30 " mins pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling the pressure not to mess up!! Thanks Sharon -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 - Release Date: 2/21/2007 3:19 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi Sharon & All, Sharon wrote: > I am in the brilliant position of being the first acupuncturist in my > area to be employed by an infertility clinic. Congratulations, and may you have great success. > Will mostly be working with IVF patients.Will be trying to keep to > research protocol of session 30 mins prior to embryo transfer and 30 > mins after.Wondering if anyone else doing this type of work? Anyone > know if during research patient remained lying on same couch during > acupuncture and transfer.I shall be carrying out acu in seperate room > and then they are moved for transfer.Will this reduce effectiveness? > Does it have to be " 30 " mins pre and post?Any other tips- I am feeling > the pressure not to mess up!! Thanks Sharon I am no expert on IVF / reproduction but ... 1. The birth of a live and healthy baby to IVF depends on many factors before and after fertilisation & implantation. (a) Best embryos come from healthy ova and sperm. The health (optimum Qi / Xue / Shen / Jing) of the donors (female and male) should be optimal before donation. Therefore, preparative therapy should be in place in the weeks BEFORE ova / sperm are collected for subsequent fertilisation. That preparative therapy should focus on the Qi / Xue / Shen / Jing of the male and female donors, and NOT just on the reproductive / genital aspects. (b) Assuming that IVF leads to cleavage and a " transferable embryo " , the SURVIVAL and health of that embryo will depend HUGELY on the post- implantation health of the female recipient. Therefore, ongoing therapy should be in place for weeks AFTER embryo- transfer, if not throughout pregnancy. 2. Women do not undertake IVF and embryo-transfer lightly. Weeks, months or years of preparation (counseling, expert medical care, etc) preceed the actual IVF and implantation. IMO, it should be no different when TCM / AP is used to complement expert gynaecolofical care. IMO, you may sell yourself (and TCM) short if you intervene only 30 minutes before and after IVF. 3. Sharon, my comments are not meant to offend you, or to criticise your protocol. However, I believe strongly that TCM has MUCH more to offer than two acupuncture sessions - & + 30 minutes of IVF! Can you persuade the gynaecologists in the project to let you work with the parents (especially the mother / embryo recipient) for a longer time pre- and post IVF? Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Two studies may help you with protocols in addition to the very excellent book suggested by Attilo. One is by Elisabet Stener Victorin the other by Paulus. You can find links to both and other articles at http://www.aborm.org/research, the website for the Advisory Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine. The Stener Victorin article describes a protocol for reducing the pulsatility index in uterine arteries, which increases uterine blood flow. I often treat women weekly for six weeks before the transfer, and have seen the pulsatility index go from 5 (unfavorable) to 1.9 (favorable). I have found that the exact protocol is not necessary (the protocol calls for e stim. I have had good results with needling and moxa.) Some sources suggest 3 mos of prior treatment for optimal results. Danish research in 2006 suggested benefit form just one treatment prior to transfer. Great that they are including you. Valerie Hobbs, Dipl. OM. _______________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms http://www.NexTag.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Hi All Thanks for the replies. Worry not! I do intend to see any clients for quite a few sessions prior to commencement of a cycle and indeed afterwards. The research protocols are brilliant as evidence of effectiveness but I will also use my own knowledge and experience to enhance this. Hope none of you will mind if I post for further advice as things progress!? Thanks a million Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hi Sharon Well done I'm sure many other clinics will follow suit. I am replying on behalf of Caroline Smith who I am sure will not mind this being posted. Caroline repeated the Paulus study in Adelaide South Australia, an extra session was added at about day 9 for a constitutional treatment to be done. I work with Caroline and so thought her methods might be of help answering you questions. We see the women an hour before treatment, as they need to be at the clinic (which is 5 minutes drive away) 30 mins before their procedure time. They then come back to us as close to straight away after the procedure as possible. Delays at the clinic can make timing things very difficult, the first treatment can be a fair time before the procedure, and return means sometimes they need to wait a short while for us to see them. Results are still very good, so I wouldn't get to upset about moving beds and time per se. I like to teach the women a relaxation breathing technique in case they hit a delay at the clinic. Doing this work is fantastic, I love it, but it is hard not to get too involved, you must not start seeing the ones who don't get a positive result as your failing, although we help improve results this is still a far from perfect means of conception. Lea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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