Fwd: Hepatitis C -Traditional Jewish therapy performed [Ethical Issues]

[Guest guest]

Dear group,

 

I have truly appreciated your interest and sensitivity concerning the Jewish

folk remedy that I presented to the group. Dr. and I exchanged

outside of the group thoughts relevant to this discussion that we would like to

share with you.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Yehuda

 

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast

with the Search weather shortcut.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

After posting the hepatitis segula, I discussed certain ethical issues

pertinent to it with Dr. . Below are Phil's questions and my

responses. I hope that you find our exchange interesting and informative

 

 

 

Yehuda wrote:

> Dear Phil, Your issues certainly deserve respectful comment. My

> responses are below:

 

 

Phil wrote:

> Three comments: (1) If this method must be tried, could the birds be

> held more gently, or held in a cage (without handling) placed on the

> navel? A tight grip on a bird not accustomed to handling can cause

> panic, struggling, massive increase in blood pressure, and rupture of

> internal organs. (2) The authorities who monitor cruelty to animals

> might be very awkward if they heard of so many birds dying as a result

> of this form of treatment.

 

 

Yehuda replied:

> Forgive me if I offend your humane sense of respect for all livings

> things. I truly share it. Please understand that holding the bird's

> bottom firmly against the umbilicus does not mean squeezing it,

> handling it roughly, or causing it pain through its handling,

> including internal organ rupture. The point is to create a firm

> vacuum, which doesn't require undue stress on the bird. Once the

> vacuum is created, the process is fairly quick; the bird chokes and

> the patient gets better. When the proper suction is not created, it is

> clear that, no matter how tightly the bird is pressed down (obviously

> without malevolent intent), it neither chokes nor panics.

 

 

> It is an important philosophical question as to whether a bird or

> other living being should be used to restore health. The Torah's

> perspective is that man is qualitatively different and higher than

> other living creatures, and any creature may be used to sustain and

> improve the quality of human life. However, this comes with the caveat

> that man be ever aware and in awe of his role as steward of the planet

> showing the highest respect for all living creatures. Included in that

> imperative is the severe prohibition of tearing a limb from a living

> creature or causing it unnecessary pain (the case of the doves would

> be considered necessary pain, as they are giving their lives to save a

> life or improve the quality of life for a sick human being). This

> prohibition of causing unnecessary pain to creature is one of the 7

> Noahide commandments that all mankind is viewed by the Torah as being

> required to observe.

 

 

Phil wrote:

> (3) http://tinyurl.com/24r2ra says: " Many mekubalim today promote

> various things which supposedly have supernatural powers to heal

> various illnesses. People who believe in this stuff (in general, I

> don't, but that is beside the point), are often easily drawn into what

> has been called the " culture of alternative medicine, " i.e. some

> people with long beards and peyos have been promoting all sorts of

> alternative remedies. In fact, some of these remedies have very

> suspicious origins - possibly in Avodah Zarah. Let me give one example,

> some people have used pigeons to heal hepatitis. By putting the pigeon

> near an afflicted person's navel, the pigeon supposedly dies by taking

> the " yellowness " from the ill person and thus the person is healed and

> the pigeon dies. A " mekubal " (whatever that means- and I will not

> mention his name) came to my town in Chicago, claiming that this had

> its origin in the Zohar and he promoted this treatment. In fact, there

> is no such Zohar. In fact the earliest reference to this " treatment in

> a " Torah " source is a book of remedies written by a Hungarian Rav in

> the late 1890's (I will bli neder when I get home look it up and give

> the exact quote) and it made it into the famous " taamei haminhagim "

> making it a popular remedy in the Jewish world. This sefer did not

> quote a source. Between me and you, I have strong suspicions that the

> source of this " remedy " is from Hungarian peasantry, and the many

> pagan customs which abounded in the Hungarian " backwoods. " This smacks

> of some real live animal sacrifice, and possibly some real live bona

> fide Avodah Zarah. As for the efficacy of this " treatment " Dr Fred

> Rosner once published a study on this treatment in the NY Journal of

> Medicine (I don't think this journal is published anymore) I will bli

> neder look up the reference. He discovered that miraculously, most

> people actually did recover completely from their illness several

> weeks after treatment. However, so does just about everyone else who

> gets hepatitis! In addition, some pigeons died, and some didn't

> (about 50%), those that died had no evidence of jaundice, but they did

> have ruptured spleens! Apparently, when the " mekubal " placed the bird

> near the patients navel he twisted it in such a way that the spleen

> ruptured. It is not surprising that it died! What a miraculous feat!

> Not much of a reason to engage in a practice that is borderline Avodah

> Zarah! In fact there are more examples of " mekubalim " using remedies

> that originated in clear Avodah Zarah. Another is the practice of

> throwing molten lead into a pot of cold water over someone's head to

> avert avodah zarah. There are still practitioners of this in

> Yerushalayim. I must admit that in my younger years, I had this done

> to me. My grandmother Alehah Hashalom (who grew up in Yerushalayim,

> pre-war), remembers how the Arab women used to use this method. A

> historical analysis I once read, found the origins of this practice to

> be in the pagan practices of the Pre-Islamic Arabs. There are many

> such examples. Nowadays, with all of the eastern " medicine " that is

> becoming so popular in some circles, we have to be very careful in

> what we learn from them. On the one hand, some of what they seem to

> have learned over the centuries can teach us (e.g. acupuncture has

> shown to be beneficial in many studies for some uses especially in the

> alleviation of pain.) But let us be very careful that we are not

> engaging in practices of Avodah Zarah. "

 

 

Yehuda replied:

> I am familiar with his opinion, Phil. The torah world is a cornucopia

> of opinions, many expressing their authority without basis. Whether

> the dove cure is an ancient Jewish tradition or whether its origins

> are of a folk basis, is really of secondary importance. When engaging

> in any therapy, it is the practitioner's intention that is important -

> does the object in and of itself possess healing properties, or is it

> an energy source or gift from the Creator to be humbly used as a

> conduit to direct healing from Above. The fact is that in traditional

> mainstream Torah circles this cure is used and is viewed as the

> latter, and is certainly not to be viewed as an expression of animal

> sacrifice which would be forbidden. My very best, Yehuda.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

wrote:

Dear group,

 

I have truly appreciated your interest and sensitivity concerning the Jewish

folk remedy that I presented to the group. Dr. and I exchanged

outside of the group thoughts relevant to this discussion that we would like to

share with you.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Yehuda

 

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast

with the Search weather shortcut.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Yehuda and Phil. This is most interesting, even though I do not

understand some of the terminology and Hebrew.

 

 

wrote:

Dear friends,

 

After posting the hepatitis segula, I discussed certain ethical issues pertinent

to it with Dr. . Below are Phil's questions and my responses. I hope

that you find our exchange interesting and informative

 

 

 

Yehuda wrote:

> Dear Phil, Your issues certainly deserve respectful comment. My

> responses are below:

 

 

Phil wrote:

> Three comments: (1) If this method must be tried, could the birds be

> held more gently, or held in a cage (without handling) placed on the

> navel? A tight grip on a bird not accustomed to handling can cause

> panic, struggling, massive increase in blood pressure, and rupture of

> internal organs. (2) The authorities who monitor cruelty to animals

> might be very awkward if they heard of so many birds dying as a result

> of this form of treatment.

 

 

Yehuda replied:

> Forgive me if I offend your humane sense of respect for all livings

> things. I truly share it. Please understand that holding the bird's

> bottom firmly against the umbilicus does not mean squeezing it,

> handling it roughly, or causing it pain through its handling,

> including internal organ rupture. The point is to create a firm

> vacuum, which doesn't require undue stress on the bird. Once the

> vacuum is created, the process is fairly quick; the bird chokes and

> the patient gets better. When the proper suction is not created, it is

> clear that, no matter how tightly the bird is pressed down (obviously

> without malevolent intent), it neither chokes nor panics.

 

 

> It is an important philosophical question as to whether a bird or

> other living being should be used to restore health. The Torah's

> perspective is that man is qualitatively different and higher than

> other living creatures, and any creature may be used to sustain and

> improve the quality of human life. However, this comes with the caveat

> that man be ever aware and in awe of his role as steward of the planet

> showing the highest respect for all living creatures. Included in that

> imperative is the severe prohibition of tearing a limb from a living

> creature or causing it unnecessary pain (the case of the doves would

> be considered necessary pain, as they are giving their lives to save a

> life or improve the quality of life for a sick human being). This

> prohibition of causing unnecessary pain to creature is one of the 7

> Noahide commandments that all mankind is viewed by the Torah as being

> required to observe.

 

 

Phil wrote:

> (3) http://tinyurl.com/24r2ra says: " Many mekubalim today promote

> various things which supposedly have supernatural powers to heal

> various illnesses. People who believe in this stuff (in general, I

> don't, but that is beside the point), are often easily drawn into what

> has been called the " culture of alternative medicine, " i.e. some

> people with long beards and peyos have been promoting all sorts of

> alternative remedies. In fact, some of these remedies have very

> suspicious origins - possibly in Avodah Zarah. Let me give one example,

> some people have used pigeons to heal hepatitis. By putting the pigeon

> near an afflicted person's navel, the pigeon supposedly dies by taking

> the " yellowness " from the ill person and thus the person is healed and

> the pigeon dies. A " mekubal " (whatever that means- and I will not

> mention his name) came to my town in Chicago, claiming that this had

> its origin in the Zohar and he promoted this treatment. In fact, there

> is no such Zohar. In fact the earliest reference to this " treatment in

> a " Torah " source is a book of remedies written by a Hungarian Rav in

> the late 1890's (I will bli neder when I get home look it up and give

> the exact quote) and it made it into the famous " taamei haminhagim "

> making it a popular remedy in the Jewish world. This sefer did not

> quote a source. Between me and you, I have strong suspicions that the

> source of this " remedy " is from Hungarian peasantry, and the many

> pagan customs which abounded in the Hungarian " backwoods. " This smacks

> of some real live animal sacrifice, and possibly some real live bona

> fide Avodah Zarah. As for the efficacy of this " treatment " Dr Fred

> Rosner once published a study on this treatment in the NY Journal of

> Medicine (I don't think this journal is published anymore) I will bli

> neder look up the reference. He discovered that miraculously, most

> people actually did recover completely from their illness several

> weeks after treatment. However, so does just about everyone else who

> gets hepatitis! In addition, some pigeons died, and some didn't

> (about 50%), those that died had no evidence of jaundice, but they did

> have ruptured spleens! Apparently, when the " mekubal " placed the bird

> near the patients navel he twisted it in such a way that the spleen

> ruptured. It is not surprising that it died! What a miraculous feat!

> Not much of a reason to engage in a practice that is borderline Avodah

> Zarah! In fact there are more examples of " mekubalim " using remedies

> that originated in clear Avodah Zarah. Another is the practice of

> throwing molten lead into a pot of cold water over someone's head to

> avert avodah zarah. There are still practitioners of this in

> Yerushalayim. I must admit that in my younger years, I had this done

> to me. My grandmother Alehah Hashalom (who grew up in Yerushalayim,

> pre-war), remembers how the Arab women used to use this method. A

> historical analysis I once read, found the origins of this practice to

> be in the pagan practices of the Pre-Islamic Arabs. There are many

> such examples. Nowadays, with all of the eastern " medicine " that is

> becoming so popular in some circles, we have to be very careful in

> what we learn from them. On the one hand, some of what they seem to

> have learned over the centuries can teach us (e.g. acupuncture has

> shown to be beneficial in many studies for some uses especially in the

> alleviation of pain.) But let us be very careful that we are not

> engaging in practices of Avodah Zarah. "

 

 

Yehuda replied:

> I am familiar with his opinion, Phil. The torah world is a cornucopia

> of opinions, many expressing their authority without basis. Whether

> the dove cure is an ancient Jewish tradition or whether its origins

> are of a folk basis, is really of secondary importance. When engaging

> in any therapy, it is the practitioner's intention that is important -

> does the object in and of itself possess healing properties, or is it

> an energy source or gift from the Creator to be humbly used as a

> conduit to direct healing from Above. The fact is that in traditional

> mainstream Torah circles this cure is used and is viewed as the

> latter, and is certainly not to be viewed as an expression of animal

> sacrifice which would be forbidden. My very best, Yehuda.

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

wrote:

Dear group,

 

I have truly appreciated your interest and sensitivity concerning the Jewish

folk remedy that I presented to the group. Dr. and I exchanged

outside of the group thoughts relevant to this discussion that we would like to

share with you.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast

with the Search weather shortcut.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all, just to point out some obvious stuff here:

Given that we were presented with a clinical case from the horse's mouth, some

measure of veracity must be attached to it.

Yehuda was very clear in his case that improvement of the hepatitis s & s

occurred very quickly, rather than within a few weeks.

Yehuda also explicitly stated that some birds underwent autopsy at a western

medical hospital (one of the major ones in the country if I am not mistaken) and

did not have ruptured organs, except perhaps of the lungs, since they were

assessed as having died from asphyxiation.

In several ways, not just the two listed above, there are severe discrepancies

between the report of a professional on this list, and the writings of a person

with an obvious axe to grind. Not that I don't grind, nay, enjoy grinding, my

own axes, I had just wished to state something contrary to the unknown writer

below, since, as we all might have learned from Monty Python, an argument is

simply the act of taking up a contrary position.

It did strike me as peculiar how the author's tone and logic was very similar

to anti-acupuncture / CM stances that I have read and heard over the years.

As far as the doves being a potential source of toxins or whatnot, my large

project at the moment involves a compilation of risks we face in the modern

world. Some of them real, such as driving a car, drinking alcohol, taking

prescription drugs, smoking, or eating meat, and others spurious, like catching

a disease from a bird (if avian flu were that dangerous, we'd be dead, because

birds FLY people, and they fly all OVER the place!). In fact we are beset by all

manner of other avoidable but accepted risks which are orders of magnitude more

dangerous. But because we perceive them to be controllable, or even merely

familiar, we downplay them or outright ignore them. The devil we know. Mayhaps

when I finally get this presentation done (which is tricky since it is so

" psychological " in nature) I will share it with interested list members.

There, i think my axe has been ground down to a nub.

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

> neder look up the reference. He discovered that miraculously, most

 

> people actually did recover completely from their illness several

 

> weeks after treatment. However, so does just about everyone else who

 

> gets hepatitis! In addition, some pigeons died, and some didn't

 

> (about 50%), those that died had no evidence of jaundice, but they did

 

> have ruptured spleens! Apparently, when the " mekubal " placed the bird

 

> near the patients navel he twisted it in such a way that the spleen

 

> ruptured. It is not surprising that it died! What a miraculous feat!

 

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

if you need translation just ask

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:21 PM

Re: Fwd: Hepatitis C -Traditional Jewish therapy performed

[Ethical Issues]

 

 

Thank you Yehuda and Phil. This is most interesting, even though I do not

understand some of the terminology and Hebrew.

 

 

wrote:

Dear friends,

 

After posting the hepatitis segula, I discussed certain ethical issues

pertinent to it with Dr. . Below are Phil's questions and my

responses. I hope that you find our exchange interesting and informative

 

Yehuda wrote:

> Dear Phil, Your issues certainly deserve respectful comment. My

> responses are below:

 

Phil wrote:

> Three comments: (1) If this method must be tried, could the birds be

> held more gently, or held in a cage (without handling) placed on the

> navel? A tight grip on a bird not accustomed to handling can cause

> panic, struggling, massive increase in blood pressure, and rupture of

> internal organs. (2) The authorities who monitor cruelty to animals

> might be very awkward if they heard of so many birds dying as a result

> of this form of treatment.

 

Yehuda replied:

> Forgive me if I offend your humane sense of respect for all livings

> things. I truly share it. Please understand that holding the bird's

> bottom firmly against the umbilicus does not mean squeezing it,

> handling it roughly, or causing it pain through its handling,

> including internal organ rupture. The point is to create a firm

> vacuum, which doesn't require undue stress on the bird. Once the

> vacuum is created, the process is fairly quick; the bird chokes and

> the patient gets better. When the proper suction is not created, it is

> clear that, no matter how tightly the bird is pressed down (obviously

> without malevolent intent), it neither chokes nor panics.

 

> It is an important philosophical question as to whether a bird or

> other living being should be used to restore health. The Torah's

> perspective is that man is qualitatively different and higher than

> other living creatures, and any creature may be used to sustain and

> improve the quality of human life. However, this comes with the caveat

> that man be ever aware and in awe of his role as steward of the planet

> showing the highest respect for all living creatures. Included in that

> imperative is the severe prohibition of tearing a limb from a living

> creature or causing it unnecessary pain (the case of the doves would

> be considered necessary pain, as they are giving their lives to save a

> life or improve the quality of life for a sick human being). This

> prohibition of causing unnecessary pain to creature is one of the 7

> Noahide commandments that all mankind is viewed by the Torah as being

> required to observe.

 

Phil wrote:

> (3) http://tinyurl.com/24r2ra says: " Many mekubalim today promote

> various things which supposedly have supernatural powers to heal

> various illnesses. People who believe in this stuff (in general, I

> don't, but that is beside the point), are often easily drawn into what

> has been called the " culture of alternative medicine, " i.e. some

> people with long beards and peyos have been promoting all sorts of

> alternative remedies. In fact, some of these remedies have very

> suspicious origins - possibly in Avodah Zarah. Let me give one example,

> some people have used pigeons to heal hepatitis. By putting the pigeon

> near an afflicted person's navel, the pigeon supposedly dies by taking

> the " yellowness " from the ill person and thus the person is healed and

> the pigeon dies. A " mekubal " (whatever that means- and I will not

> mention his name) came to my town in Chicago, claiming that this had

> its origin in the Zohar and he promoted this treatment. In fact, there

> is no such Zohar. In fact the earliest reference to this " treatment in

> a " Torah " source is a book of remedies written by a Hungarian Rav in

> the late 1890's (I will bli neder when I get home look it up and give

> the exact quote) and it made it into the famous " taamei haminhagim "

> making it a popular remedy in the Jewish world. This sefer did not

> quote a source. Between me and you, I have strong suspicions that the

> source of this " remedy " is from Hungarian peasantry, and the many

> pagan customs which abounded in the Hungarian " backwoods. " This smacks

> of some real live animal sacrifice, and possibly some real live bona

> fide Avodah Zarah. As for the efficacy of this " treatment " Dr Fred

> Rosner once published a study on this treatment in the NY Journal of

> Medicine (I don't think this journal is published anymore) I will bli

> neder look up the reference. He discovered that miraculously, most

> people actually did recover completely from their illness several

> weeks after treatment. However, so does just about everyone else who

> gets hepatitis! In addition, some pigeons died, and some didn't

> (about 50%), those that died had no evidence of jaundice, but they did

> have ruptured spleens! Apparently, when the " mekubal " placed the bird

> near the patients navel he twisted it in such a way that the spleen

> ruptured. It is not surprising that it died! What a miraculous feat!

> Not much of a reason to engage in a practice that is borderline Avodah

> Zarah! In fact there are more examples of " mekubalim " using remedies

> that originated in clear Avodah Zarah. Another is the practice of

> throwing molten lead into a pot of cold water over someone's head to

> avert avodah zarah. There are still practitioners of this in

> Yerushalayim. I must admit that in my younger years, I had this done

> to me. My grandmother Alehah Hashalom (who grew up in Yerushalayim,

> pre-war), remembers how the Arab women used to use this method. A

> historical analysis I once read, found the origins of this practice to

> be in the pagan practices of the Pre-Islamic Arabs. There are many

> such examples. Nowadays, with all of the eastern " medicine " that is

> becoming so popular in some circles, we have to be very careful in

> what we learn from them. On the one hand, some of what they seem to

> have learned over the centuries can teach us (e.g. acupuncture has

> shown to be beneficial in many studies for some uses especially in the

> alleviation of pain.) But let us be very careful that we are not

> engaging in practices of Avodah Zarah. "

 

Yehuda replied:

> I am familiar with his opinion, Phil. The torah world is a cornucopia

> of opinions, many expressing their authority without basis. Whether

> the dove cure is an ancient Jewish tradition or whether its origins

> are of a folk basis, is really of secondary importance. When engaging

> in any therapy, it is the practitioner's intention that is important -

> does the object in and of itself possess healing properties, or is it

> an energy source or gift from the Creator to be humbly used as a

> conduit to direct healing from Above. The fact is that in traditional

> mainstream Torah circles this cure is used and is viewed as the

> latter, and is certainly not to be viewed as an expression of animal

> sacrifice which would be forbidden. My very best, Yehuda.

 

Best regards,

 

wrote:

Dear group,

 

I have truly appreciated your interest and sensitivity concerning the Jewish

folk remedy that I presented to the group. Dr. and I exchanged

outside of the group thoughts relevant to this discussion that we would like to

share with you.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast

with the Search weather shortcut.