Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone know for certain that there are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies such as cupping and moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access to such information as it seems to change frequently. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi Diane, I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. cupping: 97016 moxa: 97026 tuina: 97140 hot/cold pack: 97010 Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. Elie Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane wrote: > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone know for certain that there > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies such as cupping and > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access to such information as it > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Hi Elie, I have the " Client Tracker " software, it has 97802 for cupping, 97803 for cupping, 97124 for acupressure. I did an on-line check and it said all updates were current. How long ago was the course that you took? Didn't some of the codes change about 1-2 years ago? Or could these treatments fall under different codes? Ron Chinese Medicine , " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 wrote: > > Hi Diane, > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > cupping: 97016 > moxa: 97026 > tuina: 97140 > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > Elie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I also did an internet search for some of the cpt codes and think we better not use them. The code that was suggested for moxa is really for infra-red therapy. One can argue what that really means, but I can assure you it was not intended for us but PT's. What this sounds like to me is that we are deciding for the AMA cpt committee what we think these codes should mean. We do not have that authority. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac _______________ Live Search: Better results, fast http://get.live.com/search/overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Elie, Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > elieg1969 > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Hi Diane, > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > cupping: 97016 > moxa: 97026 > tuina: 97140 > hot/cold pack: 97010 > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > Elie > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > know for certain that there > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > such as cupping and > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > to such information as it > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > _______________ Live Search: New search found http://get.live.com/search/overview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hey Ron, I don't know of those. Are you getting paid for those codes? Let me know if you are so we can compare. I took the course about a year ago (little less) and was told to use the 97016. For the massage I was told that you are correct to use the 97124 if you are a L.MT., but if not and just an L.Ac. then to use the 97140 so that is what I am doing. I am in NY so i do not know if anything is diff. for another state. Elie Chinese Medicine , " sekko572000 " <rbaddorf wrote: > > Hi Elie, > I have the " Client Tracker " software, it has 97802 for cupping, 97803 > for cupping, 97124 for acupressure. I did an on-line check and it > said all updates were current. How long ago was the course that you > took? Didn't some of the codes change about 1-2 years ago? Or could > these treatments fall under different codes? > > Ron > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " elieg1969 " > <elieg1969@> wrote: > > > > Hi Diane, > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > cupping: 97016 > > moxa: 97026 > > tuina: 97140 > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > Elie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hey Mike, I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! Elie Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Elie, > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > ________________________________ > > Chinese Medicine > > elieg1969 > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > Hi Diane, > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > cupping: 97016 > > moxa: 97026 > > tuina: 97140 > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > Elie > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > know for certain that there > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > such as cupping and > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > to such information as it > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > _______________ > Live Search: New search found > http://get.live.com/search/overview > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Interesting Elie: I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show more than 3 on a bill. I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am treating did say she use to to this. Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. -------------- Original message ---------------------- " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > Hey Mike, > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > Elie > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > > > > Elie, > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > ________________________________ > > > Chinese Medicine > > > elieg1969 > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > cupping: 97016 > > > moxa: 97026 > > > tuina: 97140 > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > Elie > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > > know for certain that there > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > > such as cupping and > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > > to such information as it > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > Live Search: New search found > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 In the California Work Comp, system, it is usual and customary to get reinbursed for the acupuncture treatment (with or without estem) PLUS two other modalities, (i.e., infra-red heat + whatever else) NOT three modalities. Yes you should document what you do and do for what you bill, But I agree, sending in high bills just sends out a red flag. You can put down three modalities, but you will only get reimbursed for two. Work Comp has it's own set of codes. Georgette elieg1969 <elieg1969 wrote: Hey Mike, I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! Elie Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Elie, > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > ________________________________ > > Chinese Medicine > > elieg1969 > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > Hi Diane, > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > cupping: 97016 > > moxa: 97026 > > tuina: 97140 > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > Elie > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > know for certain that there > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > such as cupping and > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > to such information as it > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > ________ > Live Search: New search found > http://get.live.com/search/overview > Georgette Young-Liebhaber, Dipl.O.M., L.Ac. Board Certified in Oriental Medicine Acupuncturist @ Sea www.energetic-medicine.com Mailing Address: P.O. Box 3314 Carefree, AZ 85377 (858) 212-4004 We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I am wondering if anyone, with a cpt maual, can show that moxa or cupping are listed for these reseptive codes? There has been some heated debate over whether or not tui na is manual therapy (home of the PT) or if we should be using 97124 and delineate time as units. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > anne.crowley > Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:41:14 +0000 > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Interesting Elie: > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show more than 3 on a bill. > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am treating did say she use to to this. > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hey Mike, > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > elieg1969 > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > > > to such information as it > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Live Search: New search found > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have the 2004 CPT Professional Edition published by AMA here. The description is rather brief: Under the subject of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation: Page 367: 97016 vasopneumatic devices -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:6 Dec 98:1, Nov 01:4, Aug 02:11 Page 368: 97026 infrared -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:6, Dec 98:1, Nov 01:4, Aug 02:11 97124 massage, including effleurage, petrissage and/or tapotement (stroking, compression, percussion) -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:8, May 96:10, Dec 99:7 97140 Manual therapy techniques (eg, mobilization/manipulation, manual lymphatic drainage, manual traction), one or more regions, each 15 minutes -> CPT Assistant Nov 98:37, Feb 99:10, Mar 99:1, July 99:11, Aug 01:10 Mike L. mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: I am wondering if anyone, with a cpt maual, can show that moxa or cupping are listed for these reseptive codes? There has been some heated debate over whether or not tui na is manual therapy (home of the PT) or if we should be using 97124 and delineate time as units. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > anne.crowley > Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:41:14 +0000 > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Interesting Elie: > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show more than 3 on a bill. > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am treating did say she use to to this. > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hey Mike, > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > elieg1969 > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > > > to such information as it > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Live Search: New search found > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Thank you everyone...who'd have thought that this question would evoke so much but then again.....LOL. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hi Ann, Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done 4 at this point. Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular the ones in your surrounding area. The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then pay a % of that. This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu is worth. Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Interesting Elie: > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show more than 3 on a bill. > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am treating did say she use to to this. > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hey Mike, > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) acu > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > > > to such information as it > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > Live Search: New search found > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Thanks for the info, Mike L. So, in reality, we are on thin ice with using some of the codes. We need to consider what our individual state laws designate us as well as what insurance companies will cover. My guess, is that most, will not give us permission to actually bill for PT services. That has been an issue in CA as well, where tui na was rejected as including myofascial release (97140). There tends to be lag time for changes and realization, if this were me, I would not risk it. By the way, I think that an infra-red heat lamp is considered under 97026. Anyone know if the TDK lamps are included in this. Lastly, the issue of worth seems confusing. These newer codes were set up to include time in the pocedure and not simply the procedure. Surgeons bill this way commonly. If you only perform a 10 minute session but get paid the same as one who performs 60 minutes, then how would you defend equal payment. Time is the key. I agree with the way of breaking it down and having it still add up to your cash amount. This covers your A** as the two amounts are the same. No argument. This also allows a practitioner to bill for more time as needed, as well. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > mikeliaw > Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:59:57 -0800 > RE: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > I have the 2004 CPT Professional Edition published by AMA here. The description is rather brief: > Under the subject of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation: > Page 367: 97016 vasopneumatic devices > -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:6 Dec 98:1, Nov 01:4, Aug 02:11 > Page 368: 97026 infrared > -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:6, Dec 98:1, Nov 01:4, Aug 02:11 > 97124 massage, including effleurage, petrissage and/or tapotement (stroking, > compression, percussion) > -> CPT Assistant Summer 95:8, May 96:10, Dec 99:7 > 97140 Manual therapy techniques (eg, mobilization/manipulation, manual > lymphatic drainage, manual traction), one or more regions, each 15 > minutes > -> CPT Assistant Nov 98:37, Feb 99:10, Mar 99:1, July 99:11, Aug 01:10 > Mike L. > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > I am wondering if anyone, with a cpt maual, can show that moxa or cupping are listed for these reseptive codes? > There has been some heated debate over whether or not tui na is manual therapy (home of the PT) or if we should > be using 97124 and delineate time as units. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > ________________________________ > > Chinese Medicine > > anne.crowley > > Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:41:14 +0000 > > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > Interesting Elie: > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show more than 3 on a bill. > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am treating did say she use to to this. > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > > Hey Mike, > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2)acu > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the bill > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even though I > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the insurance > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " and > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. Although > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > elieg1969 > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > Elie > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but does anyone > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive therapies > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get access > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Elie: I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I understood it in my state. Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. Anne rom: " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > Hi Ann, > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > 4 at this point. > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > the ones in your surrounding area. > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > pay a % of that. > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > is worth. > > > Chinese Medicine , > anne.crowley wrote: > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > > Hey Mike, > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > acu > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > bill > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > though I > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > insurance > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > and > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > Although > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > Elie > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > does anyone > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > therapies > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > access > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Anne, You are correct in your assumptions. If an office visit lasts for one hour then you would be able to bill up to 4 units, each unit is assigned an amount. It would by illegal to bill for multiple times your rate (if it was $85 for a cash patient) and you did this 3 or 4 times this rate. Plus each of the units is for a 15 minute time slot (these new cpt codes are billable in increments of 15 minutes). Since most of us do not treat for 15 minute treatments, it would be illegal. I have to question the info that was originally given as it seems to me to speak of fraud. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > anne.crowley > Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:18:19 +0000 > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Elie: > I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I understood it in my state. > Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer > BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. > Anne > rom: " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hi Ann, > > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > > 4 at this point. > > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > > the ones in your surrounding area. > > > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > > pay a % of that. > > > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > > is worth. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > anne.crowley wrote: > > > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > " elieg1969 " > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > > acu > > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > > bill > > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > > though I > > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > > insurance > > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > > and > > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > > Although > > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > > does anyone > > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > > therapies > > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > > access > > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Thanks for your clarifcation, Mike: Question: [ Since most of us do not treat for 15 minute treatments, it would be illegal. } Mike: What did you mean by this statemtent? You also mentioned 4 codes would be allowable - does that mean you have to have one-on-one contact for an hour? I am really at the point of contacting an insurance consultant that our state acupuncture society has brought it. Unfortunately, her last visit was during a snow storm, so I will probably have to pay some fee to consult with her. I will get that clear up front. But this whole insurance thing alludes me. It seems I should be able to call the indiviual plans and say " What do you reimburse, ask the specific questions. " There are only a few larger employers in my area, if I can get them to cooperate. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Hi Ann, The truth is, for your situation it is a little tricky! The reason is because you are not billing insurance. You are billing/charging your patient and they are submitting to their insurance for reimbursement. And of course charging a patient $255 would be rough. And we know charging a few diff. fees is illegal. BUT, contrary to what a few people are saying, we are 100% allowed to have 2 fees! You can have your normal fee and you can have a cash discount. (but can not have a normal price and then up it for insurance). So like any other L.Ac., M.D. and chiro that perform acu and charge that $255 to the insurance...so can you. Those who say otherwise, are they even billing insurance?? Most just have an opinion with no insurance billing experience! Are they just jealous that we are making $150-$200 per treatment? Us L.Ac's need to stick together and help each other and not be the ones to hold us back when we are excelling in a field where 75% of us don't. I am trying to help my acupuncture friends realize their highest earning potential. I am sharing the fact that I speak to insurance agents when verifying acu coverage. I am sharing the fact that my EOB's say to me that they allow $90 FOR EACH 15 MIN. CODE....EACH!!! So I can bill $90 $90 $90 or I can bill $30 $30 $30 if I want to do the insurance company a favor. I choose to do the higher one! Don't let other acu's scare you into not making money cause you are " doing something wrong " . I bet you those are the one's not even billing insurance! Elie Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Elie: > > I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I understood it in my state. > Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer > > BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. > > Anne > > > rom: " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hi Ann, > > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > > 4 at this point. > > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > > the ones in your surrounding area. > > > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > > pay a % of that. > > > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > > is worth. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969@> > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > > acu > > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > > bill > > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > > though I > > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > > insurance > > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > > and > > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > > Although > > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > > does anyone > > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > > therapies > > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > > access > > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Elie: This is all very interesting to me. How should I find out what they will accept? Ask them. I have eyeballed patient's receipts from insurance companies when they are sent my way, and this is what I was finding. Maybe they are reimbursing 70 % of what I am charging. This would be nice to know for both the patient and myself. I don't particpate in plans because I don't want to make less than $85 a treatment. If I could net that or a bit more for the time delay, I would consider joining them. This would of course help the patient's cash outlay tremendously. So I see what you are saying. Two fees, one for delayed payment, insurance or not, and another for same day cash, check, credit discount. Thanks for bearing with this conversation. It may help us all, patients and practitioners. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > Hi Ann, > The truth is, for your situation it is a little tricky! The reason is > because you are not billing insurance. You are billing/charging your > patient and they are submitting to their insurance for reimbursement. > And of course charging a patient $255 would be rough. And we know > charging a few diff. fees is illegal. BUT, contrary to what a few > people are saying, we are 100% allowed to have 2 fees! You can have > your normal fee and you can have a cash discount. (but can not have a > normal price and then up it for insurance). So like any other L.Ac., > M.D. and chiro that perform acu and charge that $255 to the > insurance...so can you. > > Those who say otherwise, are they even billing insurance?? Most just > have an opinion with no insurance billing experience! Are they just > jealous that we are making $150-$200 per treatment? Us L.Ac's need to > stick together and help each other and not be the ones to hold us back > when we are excelling in a field where 75% of us don't. I am trying to > help my acupuncture friends realize their highest earning potential. I > am sharing the fact that I speak to insurance agents when verifying > acu coverage. I am sharing the fact that my EOB's say to me that they > allow $90 FOR EACH 15 MIN. CODE....EACH!!! So I can bill $90 $90 $90 > or I can bill $30 $30 $30 if I want to do the insurance company a > favor. I choose to do the higher one! > > Don't let other acu's scare you into not making money cause you are > " doing something wrong " . I bet you those are the one's not even > billing insurance! > > Elie > > > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley > wrote: > > > > Elie: > > > > I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per > visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I > understood it in my state. > > Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units > was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or > deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a > $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer > > > > BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I > have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 > with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 > for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. > This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a > fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. > > > > Anne > > > > > > rom: " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > > Hi Ann, > > > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > > > 4 at this point. > > > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > > > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > > > > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > > > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > > > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > > > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > > > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > > > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > > > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > > > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > > > the ones in your surrounding area. > > > > > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > > > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > > > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > > > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > > > pay a % of that. > > > > > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > > > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > > > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > > > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > > > is worth. > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > > > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > > > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > > > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > > > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > > > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > > > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > > > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > > > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > > > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > > > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > > > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > > > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > > > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969@> > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > > > acu > > > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > > > bill > > > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > > > though I > > > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > > > insurance > > > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > > > and > > > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > > > Although > > > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > > > <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > > > does anyone > > > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > > > therapies > > > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > > > access > > > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Anne, Sorry for not clarifying this more. The 15 minute increments are what the new codes are attached to. The older codes never had any time factor so someone could treat for 10 minutes while another could treat for 90 and they would both be paid the same. Do you see how this could be a problem? They both could be considered equal to the insurance but in reality they are not. My point was about the charging of $85, $85, $85 to the insurance yet it sounded like your entire fee was only $85. It would be illegal and totally indefensible to charge 3X your normal rate. Let's try to break this down for simplicity sake and assume that you treated a patient for about 45 minutes of actual face-to-face contact time. You could bill the first code 97810 for an amount say ($35) and then you could add 2 units of 97811 (each for the additional 15 minutes of contact time) for each $25/ea or $50 for these two. The total would still remain as the $85 treatment but it is now brokendown into units that can billed separately and legally. If you still have questions, contact a professional. Just an FYI, bill what your rates are even if the insurance will pay more or less. Hope this helps. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > anne.crowley > Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:22:58 +0000 > RE: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Thanks for your clarifcation, Mike: > Question: > [ Since most of us do not treat for 15 minute treatments, it would be > illegal. } > Mike: What did you mean by this statemtent? > You also mentioned 4 codes would be allowable - does that mean you have to have one-on-one contact for an hour? > I am really at the point of contacting an insurance consultant that our state acupuncture society has brought it. Unfortunately, her last visit was during a snow storm, so I will probably have to pay some fee to consult with her. I will get that clear up front. But this whole insurance thing alludes me. It seems I should be able to call the indiviual plans and say " What do you reimburse, ask the specific questions. " There are only a few larger employers in my area, if I can get them to cooperate. > Anne > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Elie, You do bring up a good point about courage and success, which is why many practitioners are dialoguing on this site. If your fee is $270 to both insurance and cash patients then great but if your rates for cash are greatly reduced, you would have some real difficulty in explaining this or even defending it. Success is great, just not at the point of dishonesty. Consistency, consistency, consistency is what works. By the way, I have done lots of insurance work and billed acupuncture, also got paid for it. I previously did some contract and payment analysis for some very large HCA hospitals and spent a lot of phone time with some higher ups at Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I agree that many LAc's do not know much about insurance but then none of us wants to be auditted either. It is not about jealousy or fear of success but proper protocol that should motivate us. We have not had the best image in the past and there have been several LAc that been found guilty of insurance fraud. In the end, if you bill for your rates you should be fine but if you try to bill at the insurance payment rates and adjust for each company you may be auditted. Hope this helps. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac ________________________________ > Chinese Medicine > anne.crowley > Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:54:28 +0000 > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > Elie: > This is all very interesting to me. How should I find out what they will accept? Ask them. I have eyeballed patient's receipts from insurance companies when they are sent my way, and this is what I was finding. Maybe they are reimbursing 70 % of what I am charging. > This would be nice to know for both the patient and myself. I don't particpate in plans because I don't want to make less than $85 a treatment. If I could net that or a bit more for the time delay, I would consider joining them. This would of course help the patient's cash outlay tremendously. > So I see what you are saying. Two fees, one for delayed payment, insurance or not, and another for same day cash, check, credit discount. > Thanks for bearing with this conversation. It may help us all, patients and practitioners. > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > Hi Ann, > > The truth is, for your situation it is a little tricky! The reason is > > because you are not billing insurance. You are billing/charging your > > patient and they are submitting to their insurance for reimbursement. > > And of course charging a patient $255 would be rough. And we know > > charging a few diff. fees is illegal. BUT, contrary to what a few > > people are saying, we are 100% allowed to have 2 fees! You can have > > your normal fee and you can have a cash discount. (but can not have a > > normal price and then up it for insurance). So like any other L.Ac., > > M.D. and chiro that perform acu and charge that $255 to the > > insurance...so can you. > > > > Those who say otherwise, are they even billing insurance?? Most just > > have an opinion with no insurance billing experience! Are they just > > jealous that we are making $150-$200 per treatment? Us L.Ac's need to > > stick together and help each other and not be the ones to hold us back > > when we are excelling in a field where 75% of us don't. I am trying to > > help my acupuncture friends realize their highest earning potential. I > > am sharing the fact that I speak to insurance agents when verifying > > acu coverage. I am sharing the fact that my EOB's say to me that they > > allow $90 FOR EACH 15 MIN. CODE....EACH!!! So I can bill $90 $90 $90 > > or I can bill $30 $30 $30 if I want to do the insurance company a > > favor. I choose to do the higher one! > > > > Don't let other acu's scare you into not making money cause you are > > " doing something wrong " . I bet you those are the one's not even > > billing insurance! > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley > > wrote: > > > > > > Elie: > > > > > > I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per > > visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I > > understood it in my state. > > > Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units > > was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or > > deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a > > $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer > > > > > > BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I > > have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 > > with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 > > for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. > > This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a > > fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > rom: " elieg1969 " > > > > Hi Ann, > > > > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > > > > 4 at this point. > > > > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > > > > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > > > > > > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > > > > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > > > > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > > > > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > > > > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > > > > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > > > > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > > > > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > > > > the ones in your surrounding area. > > > > > > > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > > > > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > > > > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > > > > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > > > > pay a % of that. > > > > > > > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > > > > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > > > > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > > > > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > > > > is worth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > > > > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > > > > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > > > > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > > > > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > > > > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > > > > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > > > > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > > > > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > > > > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > > > > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > > > > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > > > > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > > > > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > > > > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > > > > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > > > > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > > > " elieg1969 " > > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > > > > acu > > > > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > > > > bill > > > > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > > > > though I > > > > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > > > > insurance > > > > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > > > > and > > > > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > > > > Although > > > > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > > > > does anyone > > > > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > > > > therapies > > > > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > > > > access > > > > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Hi Mike, I agree with you. I hope you didn't automatically assume I was being dishonest with the insurance companies. I speak to them all the time before I bill them and make it as legal as I can while at the same time...trying to get as much money as I can from them I understand that each State may be different too..esp. CA And you are right, as I know of an acu friend who was found guilty of insurance fraud as well, so of course we need to follow the law but also try to reach our highest earning potential that we can. Thanks, Elie Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Elie, > > You do bring up a good point about courage and success, which is why many practitioners are dialoguing on this site. If your fee is $270 to both insurance and cash patients then great but if your rates for cash are greatly reduced, you would have some real difficulty in explaining this or even defending it. Success is great, just not at the point of dishonesty. Consistency, consistency, consistency is what works. > > By the way, I have done lots of insurance work and billed acupuncture, also got paid for it. I previously did some contract and payment analysis for some very large HCA hospitals and spent a lot of phone time with some higher ups at Blue Cross/Blue Shield. > > I agree that many LAc's do not know much about insurance but then none of us wants to be auditted either. It is not about jealousy or fear of success but proper protocol that should motivate us. We have not had the best image in the past and there have been several LAc that been found guilty of insurance fraud. > > In the end, if you bill for your rates you should be fine but if you try to bill at the insurance payment rates and adjust for each company you may be auditted. Hope this helps. > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > ________________________________ > > Chinese Medicine > > anne.crowley > > Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:54:28 +0000 > > Re: Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > Elie: > > This is all very interesting to me. How should I find out what they will accept? Ask them. I have eyeballed patient's receipts from insurance companies when they are sent my way, and this is what I was finding. Maybe they are reimbursing 70 % of what I am charging. > > This would be nice to know for both the patient and myself. I don't particpate in plans because I don't want to make less than $85 a treatment. If I could net that or a bit more for the time delay, I would consider joining them. This would of course help the patient's cash outlay tremendously. > > So I see what you are saying. Two fees, one for delayed payment, insurance or not, and another for same day cash, check, credit discount. > > Thanks for bearing with this conversation. It may help us all, patients and practitioners. > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " elieg1969 " <elieg1969 > > > Hi Ann, > > > The truth is, for your situation it is a little tricky! The reason is > > > because you are not billing insurance. You are billing/charging your > > > patient and they are submitting to their insurance for reimbursement. > > > And of course charging a patient $255 would be rough. And we know > > > charging a few diff. fees is illegal. BUT, contrary to what a few > > > people are saying, we are 100% allowed to have 2 fees! You can have > > > your normal fee and you can have a cash discount. (but can not have a > > > normal price and then up it for insurance). So like any other L.Ac., > > > M.D. and chiro that perform acu and charge that $255 to the > > > insurance...so can you. > > > > > > Those who say otherwise, are they even billing insurance?? Most just > > > have an opinion with no insurance billing experience! Are they just > > > jealous that we are making $150-$200 per treatment? Us L.Ac's need to > > > stick together and help each other and not be the ones to hold us back > > > when we are excelling in a field where 75% of us don't. I am trying to > > > help my acupuncture friends realize their highest earning potential. I > > > am sharing the fact that I speak to insurance agents when verifying > > > acu coverage. I am sharing the fact that my EOB's say to me that they > > > allow $90 FOR EACH 15 MIN. CODE....EACH!!! So I can bill $90 $90 $90 > > > or I can bill $30 $30 $30 if I want to do the insurance company a > > > favor. I choose to do the higher one! > > > > > > Don't let other acu's scare you into not making money cause you are > > > " doing something wrong " . I bet you those are the one's not even > > > billing insurance! > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Elie: > > > > > > > > I thought I would have to charge a non insurance patient $255 per > > > visit; same as I would bill and insurance company. This is the way I > > > understood it in my state. > > > > Also, I have noticed that the reimbursement for each of those units > > > was only in the $25 dollar range. Far be it from me to undercharge or > > > deflate the amount we would be reimbursed. I just can't justify a > > > $255 visit for insurance and non insurance customer > > > > > > > > BTW I have seen other practitioners in the area do it the way I > > > have. I also saw another who is a BC/BS provider charge over $200 > > > with his codes, get reimbursed $20 copay and $75 from insurance, $95 > > > for treatment. I also know he has only charge $60 to some clients. > > > This is scary to me. I want the max reimbursement for my clients, a > > > fair rate for me, but I do not want to violate any insurance laws. > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > rom: " elieg1969 " > > > > > Hi Ann, > > > > > Me too, I have not been denied for 3 procedures, but I have not done > > > > > 4 at this point. > > > > > Actually you only billed 2 procedures. 97811 is one procedure with 2 > > > > > units that you did, but counts as one procedure code. > > > > > > > > > > One thing I just want to comment on regarding your biling that > > > > > caught my eye was that you only charge $35 a treatment? You said you > > > > > charge $85 per treatment but by breaking it down the way you do, you > > > > > are telling the ins. co. that the value of your treatment is only > > > > > $35. So if you gave someone a 10 minute tx, you would only charge > > > > > $35? Not only are you worth more than that but you are telling the > > > > > ins. co. that acu is only woth $35 and they will lower > > > > > there " standard fees " to the rest of us acupuncturists particular > > > > > the ones in your surrounding area. > > > > > > > > > > The ins. co. looks at all the acu bills in and around the zipcode > > > > > where you practice and bases their " acceptable fees " based on that. > > > > > So by only billing $35 for 97810 they then will say OH! see acu is > > > > > not worth that much and we will lower our acceptable fee and then > > > > > pay a % of that. > > > > > > > > > > This is actually very important to those acu's that bill ins. > > > > > According to the PCOM instructor you should bill $85 $85 $85. We are > > > > > worth that! Sure, MD acu's bill much higher than that. We don't need > > > > > to go as high as them but bill each tx code as you think you and acu > > > > > is worth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , > > > > > anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting Elie: > > > > > > > > > > > > I bill 3 procedures, one inital visit and two additional units. > > > > > My patients have never been denied a procedure, as far as I know. > > > > > They have showed me some bills. I think the real question is what > > > > > they reimburse per code. I remember the discussion a year or so ago > > > > > was to keep it to two codes. If they only reimburse $20 per code, > > > > > you are better off using 3,one at say 30, the others at 20; or 25 > > > > > and others 20. I bill 35 and 25, 25, and my rate is 85. I always > > > > > treat with the 3 units and sometimes more but was hesitant to show > > > > > more than 3 on a bill. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also don't bill insurance companies, so for me the same amount > > > > > that is on the bill is what the patient pays. This is the way I > > > > > heard it in MD anyway. Whatever gets billed to insurance, should be > > > > > billed to every patient. The Same Day Discount Thing, I have yet > > > > > to figure out if that would hold up in our state. A dentist I am > > > > > treating did say she use to to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow, insurance again. Forgive us neighbors to the East. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > > > > " elieg1969 " > > > > > > > Hey Mike, > > > > > > > I was told not to " overbill " . So for ex. if I do 1)acu initial 2) > > > > > acu > > > > > > > addtl 3)cupping 4)moxa 5)tuina on 1 patient for 1 treatment the > > > > > bill > > > > > > > to insurance would be crazy high and draw a red flag. Even > > > > > though I > > > > > > > did nothing wrong and actually gave a full treatment, the > > > > > insurance > > > > > > > may not like such a high bill so I was told to " play that game " > > > > > and > > > > > > > just bill less. One chiro told me to keep the bill under $400 and > > > > > > > someone else had told me to keep it to a max of 3 procedures. > > > > > Although > > > > > > > verifying a patient one time, the ins. co. told me that specific > > > > > > > patient is allowed up to 4 procedures. So Who knows! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elie, > > > > > > > > Why would you not bill for the work you did in that treatment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > > > elieg1969@ > > > > > > > > > Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:53:48 +0000 > > > > > > > > > Re: codes: cpt ICD9 etc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Diane, > > > > > > > > > I took a course at PCOM NY and was told the following. > > > > > > > > > cupping: 97016 > > > > > > > > > moxa: 97026 > > > > > > > > > tuina: 97140 > > > > > > > > > hot/cold pack: 97010 > > > > > > > > > Just don't bill everything for 1 treatment. > > > > > > > > > Elie > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Diane > > > > > > > > > Notarianni " wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Forgive me if this is information in the archives but > > > > > does anyone > > > > > > > > > know for certain that there > > > > > > > > > > are (and what they are, for that matter) for adjunctive > > > > > therapies > > > > > > > > > such as cupping and > > > > > > > > > > moxibustion. It would help me greatly to know where to get > > > > > access > > > > > > > > > to such information as it > > > > > > > > > > seems to change frequently. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > > > > > > Live Search: New search found > > > > > > > > http://get.live.com/search/overview > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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