Guest guest Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hi All, The long URLs for the Chinese Anticancer Herbs did not transmit correctly in my last mail. Here are tinyurls for them: Part A: http://tinyurl.com/37ae59 Part B: http://tinyurl.com/2od7ao Part C: http://tinyurl.com/32evak Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ann, > The links below to the anticancer herbs don't seem to work (I get a > page-not-availble page). And I can't find it at the site itself > (linked to by the first url below). Any hints? ann http://www.fzrm.com/herbextracts.htm works for me [broadband connection] but the page is slow to load. You can track the other links from within the site. Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 I was able to pick up the anticancer herbs from the tinyurl you sent us. Thanks for that, Phil. Ann Ann, > The links below to the anticancer herbs don't seem to work (I get a > page-not-availble page). And I can't find it at the site itself > (linked to by the first url below). Any hints? ann http://www.fzrm.com/herbextracts.htm works for me [broadband connection] but the page is slow to load. You can track the other links from within the site. Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 I had a very severly ill cancer patient come in to the student clinic last week. Very tragic case, the man was 40 years old and metastasis to lung and liver from the original Kidney cancer. Fortunately he is not in much pain right now. His friend had put him on a macrobiotic diet. I see little hope for long or even short-term survival outside of a miracle. My intern was confused because of the number of tonic herbs that I put in his formula along with a few anti-cancer herbs. He thought that the tonics would just " feed the cancer " . What have others thoughts been in terminal cases? Doug , <snakeoil.works wrote: > > I was able to pick up the anticancer herbs from the tinyurl you sent us. Thanks for that, Phil. > Ann > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi Doug, I have treated a few cancer patients recently, and maybe it's just me, but they all display two very interesting yet disturbing common denominators: they all seem to be extremely guarded, controlling and irritable, and they also seem to reflect different deep and superficial pulses, on at least one point, for example Kidney Yang being superficially thready and weak, but deep being thready and rapid. This brings me to my observation on your patient. I think that cancer patients really need to get some kind of body work to get in touch with their bodies, be it tui na, Tai ji, qi gong, Craniosacral therapy, or something else. I have read that cancer cells, which don't have mitochondria are cells which proliferate out of control, from a host being disconnected from his/her body. As such, I would absolutely agree with you to use tonic herbs as well as anti-cancer herbs. Strengthening the soma by tonifying qi and Yang promote the body's connectivity and metabolism, and tonifying the blood and yin give the building blocks that enable the qi to distribute the life force. I personally don't think that the rule we are taught of not tonifying in the presence of an outside pathogen applies with Cancer, because I believe that the mechanism of Cancer is completely different. Yehuda wrote: I had a very severly ill cancer patient come in to the student clinic last week. Very tragic case, the man was 40 years old and metastasis to lung and liver from the original Kidney cancer. Fortunately he is not in much pain right now. His friend had put him on a macrobiotic diet. I see little hope for long or even short-term survival outside of a miracle. My intern was confused because of the number of tonic herbs that I put in his formula along with a few anti-cancer herbs. He thought that the tonics would just " feed the cancer " . What have others thoughts been in terminal cases? Doug , <snakeoil.works wrote: > > I was able to pick up the anticancer herbs from the tinyurl you sent us. Thanks for that, Phil. > Ann > > > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Hi Yehuda. Do you see the patients as being " guarded, controlling and irritable " when they are going through treatment; that is being given chemotherapy at the same time? Or is this your observation with those who aren't necessarily being treated with western drugs? I see that sometimes several days after chemotherapy the patients seem to be very irritable, with a type of " gui " stuck in their body. All the best, Joyce - yehuda frischman Friday, February 02, 2007 10:29 AM Re: Re: Chinese Anticancer Herbs Hi Doug, I have treated a few cancer patients recently, and maybe it's just me, but they all display two very interesting yet disturbing common denominators: they all seem to be extremely guarded, controlling and irritable, and they also seem to reflect different deep and superficial pulses, on at least one point, for example Kidney Yang being superficially thready and weak, but deep being thready and rapid. This brings me to my observation on your patient. I think that cancer patients really need to get some kind of body work to get in touch with their bodies, be it tui na, Tai ji, qi gong, Craniosacral therapy, or something else. I have read that cancer cells, which don't have mitochondria are cells which proliferate out of control, from a host being disconnected from his/her body. As such, I would absolutely agree with you to use tonic herbs as well as anti-cancer herbs. Strengthening the soma by tonifying qi and Yang promote the body's connectivity and metabolism, and tonifying the blood and yin give the building blocks that enable the qi to distribute the life force. I personally don't think that the rule we are taught of not tonifying in the presence of an outside pathogen applies with Cancer, because I believe that the mechanism of Cancer is completely different. Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yehuda, and Doug, Adding some tonification herbs is the right thing to do when you see the need. One very important thing though is to observe the change of s/s from 4-diagnosis very closely and modify the prescription accordingly. Often, a prescription is used for a day or two, then changed because of the s/s change. Mike L. wrote: Hi Doug, I have treated a few cancer patients recently, and maybe it's just me, but they all display two very interesting yet disturbing common denominators: they all seem to be extremely guarded, controlling and irritable, and they also seem to reflect different deep and superficial pulses, on at least one point, for example Kidney Yang being superficially thready and weak, but deep being thready and rapid. This brings me to my observation on your patient. I think that cancer patients really need to get some kind of body work to get in touch with their bodies, be it tui na, Tai ji, qi gong, Craniosacral therapy, or something else. I have read that cancer cells, which don't have mitochondria are cells which proliferate out of control, from a host being disconnected from his/her body. As such, I would absolutely agree with you to use tonic herbs as well as anti-cancer herbs. Strengthening the soma by tonifying qi and Yang promote the body's connectivity and metabolism, and tonifying the blood and yin give the building blocks that enable the qi to distribute the life force. I personally don't think that the rule we are taught of not tonifying in the presence of an outside pathogen applies with Cancer, because I believe that the mechanism of Cancer is completely different. Yehuda wrote: I had a very severly ill cancer patient come in to the student clinic last week. Very tragic case, the man was 40 years old and metastasis to lung and liver from the original Kidney cancer. Fortunately he is not in much pain right now. His friend had put him on a macrobiotic diet. I see little hope for long or even short-term survival outside of a miracle. My intern was confused because of the number of tonic herbs that I put in his formula along with a few anti-cancer herbs. He thought that the tonics would just " feed the cancer " . What have others thoughts been in terminal cases? Doug , <snakeoil.works wrote: > > I was able to pick up the anticancer herbs from the tinyurl you sent us. Thanks for that, Phil. > Ann > > > > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Small Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest practitioners with the most education and experience. When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally ready to deal with cancer patients. On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was medically ethical. But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), we are supposed to do nothing. I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that are beyond our personal training and experience. Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not think they should be doing it. Just my rambling out loud. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I agree with your thinking Bob, I am currently taking Mazin Al Kafaji's dermatology diploma course here in London England and the difference in training between specialization and what is taught at an undergraduate level is uncomparable. In college my dermatology training was only 14 hours long and included no slides or actual case studies, in other words totally useless in clinical practise. In Mazin's course we are taking about 14 hours just to study Psoriasis! I have seen many practitioners, including myself, attempt to treat problems that are realy beyond their scope of practise. This means that the results are usually poor and that both the Doctor and the patient are left with a sense that CM doesn't work effectively for their problem. When in fact CM might work extremely well for their condition when the right treatment is given by a practitioner who knows that condition, inside and out. Not only do we shoot ourself in the foot when we treat conditions above our training, we also bring down the profession at large. I would be very interested in any CM practitioners in my home land of Canada to add to this list you have started Bob, so that I could refer cancer patients to them. I feel completely inadequate to do so myself. Trevor , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > practitioners with the most education and experience. > > When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed > because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming > to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there > typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM > oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we > want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these > posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when > evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally > ready to deal with cancer patients. > > On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed > the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been > trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If > we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat > gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't > treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing > to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts > professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was > medically ethical. > > But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of > the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not > where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to > help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We > are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At > least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime > imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, > if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), > we are supposed to do nothing. > > I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us > feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I > do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. > > Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive > instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM > oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three > names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: > > 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I > believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA > 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA > 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 > > I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out > there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred > such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our > cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that > are beyond our personal training and experience. > > Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer > patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a > training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. > Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to > train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what > you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in > tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and > airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM > oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, > but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit > at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not > think they should be doing it. > > Just my rambling out loud. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 No, I'm talking about both those receiving chemo and those who don't. I intuitively feel that this quality has a major influence on the pathogenesis of cancer-- even with those who are not going through Western oncological treatments. It was expressed very well by one patient who mentioned that she needed to " fight for her life " Yehuda Joyce <joyces wrote: Hi Yehuda. Do you see the patients as being " guarded, controlling and irritable " when they are going through treatment; that is being given chemotherapy at the same time? Or is this your observation with those who aren't necessarily being treated with western drugs? I see that sometimes several days after chemotherapy the patients seem to be very irritable, with a type of " gui " stuck in their body. All the best, Joyce - yehuda frischman Friday, February 02, 2007 10:29 AM Re: Re: Chinese Anticancer Herbs Hi Doug, I have treated a few cancer patients recently, and maybe it's just me, but they all display two very interesting yet disturbing common denominators: they all seem to be extremely guarded, controlling and irritable, and they also seem to reflect different deep and superficial pulses, on at least one point, for example Kidney Yang being superficially thready and weak, but deep being thready and rapid. This brings me to my observation on your patient. I think that cancer patients really need to get some kind of body work to get in touch with their bodies, be it tui na, Tai ji, qi gong, Craniosacral therapy, or something else. I have read that cancer cells, which don't have mitochondria are cells which proliferate out of control, from a host being disconnected from his/her body. As such, I would absolutely agree with you to use tonic herbs as well as anti-cancer herbs. Strengthening the soma by tonifying qi and Yang promote the body's connectivity and metabolism, and tonifying the blood and yin give the building blocks that enable the qi to distribute the life force. I personally don't think that the rule we are taught of not tonifying in the presence of an outside pathogen applies with Cancer, because I believe that the mechanism of Cancer is completely different. Yehuda http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I agree with Bob, training is strongly recommended. The language advantage allows me to have the opportunity to learn from very experienced doctors like Prof. Xin, Chang Shan (still teaches at South Baylo, I believe) with 20~30 years experience focusing on Zhong Liu Ke, and late Prof. Ma, Guang Yao (of CM univ. in Taiwan) who accumulated almost 70 years of clinical experience, including many successful Zhong Liu cases. Despite many hours of one on one teaching while treating cancer patients with Dr. Ma, I have been hesitant to address cancer cases head-on, partly because of my part-time nature. Locally in the SF bay area, I usually refer them to my other mentor, Dr. Wu, Andrew (the Wu/Wu who has a version of English translation of Nei Jing) of Cupertino. Mike L. Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest practitioners with the most education and experience. When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally ready to deal with cancer patients. On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was medically ethical. But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), we are supposed to do nothing. I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that are beyond our personal training and experience. Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not think they should be doing it. Just my rambling out loud. Bob 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Search movie showtime shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Doug, The idea that supplementing medicinals 'feed the cancer' is purely unsubstantiated dogma. I wonder where your students are picking up such ideas, are their teachers telling them this? Like all patients with complicated diseases, the treatment of cancer patients requires flexibility, and a clear understanding of vacuity and repletion vis a vis the stage of the disease, visceral systems effected, etc. Many cancer patient herbal prescriptions contain supplementing medicinals, there is no simplistic contraindication. On Feb 1, 2007, at 11:06 PM, wrote: > I had a very severly ill cancer patient come in to the student > clinic last week. Very tragic case, > the man was 40 years old and metastasis to lung and liver from the > original Kidney cancer. > Fortunately he is not in much pain right now. His friend had put > him on a macrobiotic diet. I > see little hope for long or even short-term survival outside of a > miracle. > My intern was confused because of the number of tonic herbs that I > put in his formula along > with a few anti-cancer herbs. He thought that the tonics would just > " feed the cancer " . > > What have others thoughts been in terminal cases? > > Doug > > , <snakeoil.works wrote: > > > > I was able to pick up the anticancer herbs from the tinyurl you > sent us. Thanks for that, > Phil. > > Ann > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Bob, You are not so 'odd man out' as you might think. A lot of us feel the same about this as you do. To answer your first question, four weeks of one of the " Oriental Medicine " series of classes is devoted to oncology, which simply gives a comprehensive introduction to the specialty. I've taught this section for a few semesters, alternating with other teachers. I don't think four weeks is enough, but I think it would provide a foundation for further training in TCM oncology, in a post-graduate course. I know that Bastyr College in Seattle has more comprehensive oncology training, including courses in mainland China, as part of its doctorate program. Secondly, I agree we need to get a list of practitioners who do treat cancer patients. I know all three individuals you've mentioned as able and confident practitioners, and there are others as well. Mentoring is always a good approach. In my own practice, I started seeing cancer patients almost 30 years ago when I was a macrobiotic consultant and shiatsu therapist in Denver. These patients started coming after the Dr. Sattilaro book, about the time macrobiotics went from being a health-promoting regimen and lifestyle to " the cancer diet " . I was never comfortable with this, and it led to my decision to go to a Chinese medicine school in New Mexico for almost two years, to be able to help patients with more than a superficial " too yin or too yang " diagnosis. Michael Broffman, in my opinion, is one of the great experts in treatment of cancer patients in the West. I've worked with him with my own cancer patients for almost the entire 25 years of my Chinese medicine practice. The large majority of patients who come to see me with one form or stage of cancer or another I ask to travel to San Anselmo to see him. He will put them on a regimen of diet, supplements, herbs, and work with oncologists to provide a comprehensive program. I then monitor the patients, treat them with acupuncture, provide the herbs, and follow up on their pulses and vital signs. I've learned a lot by working in this manner, but I must say I can only handle a few cancer patients at a time, a small percent of my 35-40 patients per week. Otherwise, it is just too exhausting, it requires a lot of qi and extra work and devotion. Michael has several assistants, someone to operate the herbal pharmacy. I am alone with no assistants in my practice. On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > practitioners with the most education and experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I don't know that he got this particularily idea from anyone in TCM school. Seeing how the patient's friend had put him on a macrobiotic diet I think the first impulse for most persons is to starve the cancer, drain the toxins, etc... doug , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Doug, > The idea that supplementing medicinals 'feed the cancer' is > purely unsubstantiated dogma. I wonder where your students are > picking up such ideas, are their teachers telling them this? Like > all patients with complicated diseases, the treatment of cancer > patients requires flexibility, and a clear understanding of vacuity > and repletion vis a vis the stage of the disease, visceral systems > effected, etc. Many cancer patient herbal prescriptions contain > supplementing medicinals, there is no simplistic contraindication. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Very possible. I know that many macrobiotic councillors say that any food other than strict grains and vegetables 'feeds the cancer'. I always found that to be absurd when watching later stage cancer patients starve to death of cachexia while losing weight rapidly. On Feb 2, 2007, at 4:21 PM, wrote: > I don't know that he got this particularily idea from anyone in TCM > school. Seeing how the > patient's friend had put him on a macrobiotic diet I think the > first impulse for most persons is > to starve the cancer, drain the toxins, etc... > doug > > , " " > <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > Doug, > > The idea that supplementing medicinals 'feed the cancer' is > > purely unsubstantiated dogma. I wonder where your students are > > picking up such ideas, are their teachers telling them this? Like > > all patients with complicated diseases, the treatment of cancer > > patients requires flexibility, and a clear understanding of vacuity > > and repletion vis a vis the stage of the disease, visceral systems > > effected, etc. Many cancer patient herbal prescriptions contain > > supplementing medicinals, there is no simplistic contraindication. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Well put. I doubt that you are always playing the role of the odd man out, perhaps just the only one typing at the moment. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? PCOM SD had a nice CM oncology specialty when I was there. Yuan Wang was the instructor and we took as many notes as our hands could write for the whole semester. She was very informed and experienced, and she'd be a good resource for people in the San Diego area if a referral group is getting developed. The class was an elective at the time, I think now there may just be a few weeks integrated into another required class, rather than a full semester elective class (which is a bare minimum to really even get a taste of the depth of the material). Of course, nothing can come close to immersion in a Chinese hospital. There are huge hospitals devoted purely to cancer, the zhong liu yi yuan in Beijing for example. Without seeing the true scale and scope of our field in Asia, it is hard to appreciate just how complex and sophisticated the larger world of CM really is. Oncology is just one of many such examples. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Z'ev, Glad to hear about the classes at both PCOM and Bastyr. I didn't know they existed. That's at least something. Wish more lurkers on the list would chime in with names and locations of senior practitioners in their areas that are qualified to treat cancer. It's be great if we could create such a referral list. Bob , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Bob, > You are not so 'odd man out' as you might think. A lot of us > feel the same about this as you do. > > To answer your first question, four weeks of one of the " Oriental > Medicine " series of classes is devoted to oncology, which simply > gives a comprehensive introduction to the specialty. I've taught > this section for a few semesters, alternating with other teachers. I > don't think four weeks is enough, but I think it would provide a > foundation for further training in TCM oncology, in a post-graduate > course. I know that Bastyr College in Seattle has more comprehensive > oncology training, including courses in mainland China, as part of > its doctorate program. > > Secondly, I agree we need to get a list of practitioners who do treat > cancer patients. I know all three individuals you've mentioned as > able and confident practitioners, and there are others as well. > > Mentoring is always a good approach. In my own practice, I started > seeing cancer patients almost 30 years ago when I was a macrobiotic > consultant and shiatsu therapist in Denver. These patients started > coming after the Dr. Sattilaro book, about the time macrobiotics went > from being a health-promoting regimen and lifestyle to " the cancer > diet " . I was never comfortable with this, and it led to my decision > to go to a Chinese medicine school in New Mexico for almost two > years, to be able to help patients with more than a superficial " too > yin or too yang " diagnosis. > > Michael Broffman, in my opinion, is one of the great experts in > treatment of cancer patients in the West. I've worked with him with > my own cancer patients for almost the entire 25 years of my Chinese > medicine practice. The large majority of patients who come to see me > with one form or stage of cancer or another I ask to travel to San > Anselmo to see him. He will put them on a regimen of diet, > supplements, herbs, and work with oncologists to provide a > comprehensive program. I then monitor the patients, treat them with > acupuncture, provide the herbs, and follow up on their pulses and > vital signs. > > I've learned a lot by working in this manner, but I must say I can > only handle a few cancer patients at a time, a small percent of my > 35-40 patients per week. Otherwise, it is just too exhausting, it > requires a lot of qi and extra work and devotion. Michael has > several assistants, someone to operate the herbal pharmacy. I am > alone with no assistants in my practice. > > > On Feb 2, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > > > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > > practitioners with the most education and experience. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Mike, Can you tell us more exactly where Andrew Wu is located so that others could make a referral? Bob , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > > I agree with Bob, training is strongly recommended. > The language advantage allows me to have the opportunity to learn from very experienced doctors like Prof. Xin, Chang Shan (still teaches at South Baylo, I believe) with 20~30 years experience focusing on Zhong Liu Ke, and late Prof. Ma, Guang Yao (of CM univ. in Taiwan) who accumulated almost 70 years of clinical experience, including many successful Zhong Liu cases. Despite many hours of one on one teaching while treating cancer patients with Dr. Ma, I have been hesitant to address cancer cases head-on, partly because of my part-time nature. Locally in the SF bay area, I usually refer them to my other mentor, Dr. Wu, Andrew (the Wu/Wu who has a version of English translation of Nei Jing) of Cupertino. > > Mike L. > > Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > practitioners with the most education and experience. > > When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed > because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming > to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there > typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM > oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we > want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these > posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when > evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally > ready to deal with cancer patients. > > On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed > the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been > trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If > we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat > gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't > treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing > to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts > professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was > medically ethical. > > But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of > the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not > where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to > help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We > are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At > least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime > imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, > if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), > we are supposed to do nothing. > > I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us > feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I > do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. > > Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive > instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM > oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three > names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: > > 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I > believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA > 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA > 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 > > I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out > there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred > such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our > cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that > are beyond our personal training and experience. > > Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer > patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a > training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. > Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to > train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what > you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in > tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and > airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM > oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, > but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit > at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not > think they should be doing it. > > Just my rambling out loud. > > Bob > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Search movie showtime shortcut. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Bob, Dr. Wu's clinic address: Wu, Qi Andrew 20600 Mariani Ave. Cupertino CA 95014 408-257-3767 Also, Dr. Xin I mentioned has 20+ years of experience treating Zhong Liu in Liao Ning Zhong Liu hospital before coming to the states. He almost always uses heavy dosage, but often with good result. His English is much more limited than Dr. Wu though. I don't have his contact info handy, but if you want to include him, I can dig out. Thanks for compiling the list. I think this is a responsible thing to do. Mike L. Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: Mike, Can you tell us more exactly where Andrew Wu is located so that others could make a referral? Bob , Mike Liaw <mikeliaw wrote: > > I agree with Bob, training is strongly recommended. > The language advantage allows me to have the opportunity to learn from very experienced doctors like Prof. Xin, Chang Shan (still teaches at South Baylo, I believe) with 20~30 years experience focusing on Zhong Liu Ke, and late Prof. Ma, Guang Yao (of CM univ. in Taiwan) who accumulated almost 70 years of clinical experience, including many successful Zhong Liu cases. Despite many hours of one on one teaching while treating cancer patients with Dr. Ma, I have been hesitant to address cancer cases head-on, partly because of my part-time nature. Locally in the SF bay area, I usually refer them to my other mentor, Dr. Wu, Andrew (the Wu/Wu who has a version of English translation of Nei Jing) of Cupertino. > > Mike L. > > Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote: > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > practitioners with the most education and experience. > > When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed > because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming > to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there > typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM > oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we > want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these > posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when > evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally > ready to deal with cancer patients. > > On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed > the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been > trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If > we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat > gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't > treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing > to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts > professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was > medically ethical. > > But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of > the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not > where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to > help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We > are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At > least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime > imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, > if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), > we are supposed to do nothing. > > I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us > feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I > do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. > > Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive > instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM > oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three > names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: > > 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I > believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA > 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA > 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 > > I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out > there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred > such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our > cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that > are beyond our personal training and experience. > > Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer > patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a > training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. > Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to > train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what > you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in > tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and > airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM > oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, > but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit > at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not > think they should be doing it. > > Just my rambling out loud. > > Bob > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Search movie showtime shortcut. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 If folks are looking for a TCM oncologist in the New York City area, my teacher, Dr. Liu Xiao Kui is a brilliant, kind, and talented practioner, trained in both CM and Western oncology. I had several lectures (also in the course of an OM sequence) with him, and he was my clinical supervisor. I treated a couple of cancer patients under his direct supervision and many more as part of my school's externship program with a local hospital. However the more experience I got with cancer, the less qualified I felt to treat it, especially with herbs. (Some good symptomatic relief with acupuncture, though.) But watching Dr. Liu in clinic, especially his understanding of chemotherapy protocols, it seemed insurmountable without a lot of time to devote to studying not only CM but the phamacology of anti-cancer drugs. It's just such a specific knowledge set. If anyone wants Dr. Liu's contact information, I can get it for you. --Sarah Sarah E. Rivkin, MS, LAc, Dipl. OM www.slopeacupuncture.com , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Sorry for being odd person out here (as usual), but this discussion of > anticancer herbs disturbs me. Do any schools currently teach a class > on CM oncology as part of their undergraduate curriculum? So far, I'm > not aware of any. In contemporary Chinese medicine in China, oncology > is a specialty (zhong liu ke), just like gynecology or pediatrics. > From the little I know of it, it entails a lot of specialized > knowledge and techniques, such as specific protocols to use on > specific days of specific chemo regimes, etc., not just a separate > materia medica. I also know that this information, by and large, is > not available in English. Further, it is my experience in China that > those who specialize in oncology are some of the best and brightest > practitioners with the most education and experience. > > When I say I'm distrubed, I need to say that partly I am disturbed > because I'm conflicted. I understand that cancer patients are coming > to us asking for help with a life-threatening situation, and there > typically is no one professionally trained and experienced as a CM > oncologist to which we can refer them. At least not locally. So we > want to help, to do what we can. But the level of unknowing in these > posts is scary to me. If people are worrying about supplementing when > evils are present, IMO, they are a long way from being professionally > ready to deal with cancer patients. > > On the one hand, I would like to say that we simply should not exceed > the scope of practice we have been trained in. If we have not been > trained specifically in pediatrics, we should not treat pediatrics. If > we have not been trained in gynecology, we should not treat > gynecology. If we have not been trained in oncology, we shouldn't > treat cancer. In my mind, that would be the mature, professional thing > to do, the thing most of our co-professionals in other healing arts > professions, such as MDs, nurses, and PTs, would probably tell us was > medically ethical. > > But, on the other hand, that stance is predicated on the existence of > the availability professionally trained specialists, and that's not > where we're at. We also have a medical ethical imperative to try to > help others, and I know that's where must of us are coming from. We > are a very compassionate and humane group of people as a whole. At > least that's my experience. So, how do we juggle that with the prime > imperative of " First do no harm? " According to that prime imperative, > if we are not sure of what we are doing (or at least reasonably sure), > we are supposed to do nothing. > > I know we have touched on these issues before, and I know most of us > feel we are in a bind between what should be and what is. However, I > do think we need to pay more attention to such ethical issues. > > Further, on a positive note, i.e., trying to do something positive > instead of just criticizing, how about our trying to create a CM > oncology referral network? To kick off that initiative, here are three > names of practitioners I know are trained and experienced in CM oncology: > > 1. Michael Broffman @ The Pine Streat Benevolent Association in, I > believe, Corte Madera or San Rafael,, CA > 2. Issac Cohen, I believe in either Berkeley or Oakland, CA > 3. Zhou Ming-ying in Boulder, CO, 303-546-6464 > > I'm sure there are others similarly qualified and experienced out > there; I just don't who or where they are. But, if we had a hundred > such names scattered across the U.S., we would be able to refer our > cancer patients more easily and not be forced to take on cases that > are beyond our personal training and experience. > > Here's another positive suggestion. If you want to treat cancer > patients, get yourself trained to do so. Go to China and set up a > training program in specifically CM oncology. This is not hard to do. > Most CM schools in the larger cities in China are set up and happy to > train Westerners. If you have the greenbacks, they'll teach you what > you want to know. A one-month training should cost around $1,000 in > tuition with translation. How much you spend on room and board and > airfare is up to you. One to three months of training just in CM > oncology would accomplish a whole lot. Not everything you should know, > but enough to get started. Personally, if one is not willing to commit > at least this much to learning how to treat cancer with CM, I do not > think they should be doing it. > > Just my rambling out loud. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.