Guest guest Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Thanks Thomas, When I first read this last night, I said, " Hmm, what is he getting at here. " It's a head turner, when my name appears in the salutation, so I read it again more carefully. I believe there are several points that you are making. One of them I learned the hard way, while in the clinic and early in my practice. You cannot push a person to move faster than they are ready to do. You can, however probe, when you think the time is right. Usually this requires a risk on our part. " Throw yourself on the altar of healing " as one practitioner put it. One way I explain my treatments is that we can go to 3 levels. One is the symtom level, the next level - what caused the symptoms (which we are really doing in step one as well), and three deeper life changing spiritual issues (your spirit). I really think we do all three of these simultaneously, but once the symptoms are under control, people can go so much deeper with this medicine if they want to go there. Thomas, your point is well taken about the talking. It is a challenge for me. My practitioner allows me a lot of talking and I quite frankly like it. However, one does not have to do it to get to the core issues. So Thomas, again I wrestle with how long to spend talking, how far to probe a patient. I appreciate your comments. If I expect (I mean hope) my patients will grow, I have to be willing to do that also. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Thomas Boegedal Soerensen " <> > Hi Anne, > > Thank you for taking the time! There is so much to be said/discussed > about this(these) issue(s) which stand(s) so close to my heart and > imho the very center of CM/OM - not just the 5E version > > I haven't put this into words before and might be lacking in coherence > - I apologize! > > Oftentimes patients does not need to be listened to, but to be heard - > and to have their true nature acknowledged! And that does not > necessarily take hours or even minutes to do this. > > I usually think of the initial consultation as a meeting where the > patient(unconsciously) and I(consciously) negotiate the terms of an > unwritten and unspoken contract. This contract is purely a contract > based on the Jing-Qi-Shen interaction between us. This contract is > renegotiable, since everything and everybody are always in > transformation! > > The contract establishes what the patient hopes to achieve from > consultation/treatment and gives me a pointer towards what the > patients current potential is in terms of Jing-Qi-Shen, prognosis, > etc. might be. > > Most often patients have specific problems they want to get rid of, a > tennis elbow, emotional problems, cancer, whatever the symptom, but > the point here is to see where they are as individuals and > treat/interact accordingly - not exerting my ambition of wanting a > so-called better life for them. > > A patient MUST give an invitation to help him/her initiate change > towards realizing true nature/potential - it cannot be forced on > anybody and trying to will make sure that patients will not come back > for (maintanaince) treatments after their initial complaints have been > taken care of because YOU as a practitioner has broken trust by trying > to change the initial contract without inviting the patient to > renegotiate the terms and you will have done him/her/yourself a > disservice by breaking this trust. > > Sometimes people need to only have their symptoms fixed because that > is all their current state of Jing-Qi-Shen allows; sometimes they will > invite you to help them change what caused their symptoms to appear in > the first place; and sometimes, through treatment, the patients > Jing-Qi-Shen improves enough for them to start realizing that their > symptoms are expressions of something more than just: eating wrong, > working long hours, etc. and then invite you - presuming that you are > always interested in the development of potential in any given patient > (and, of course, yourself) at any given time - to renegotiate the > terms of a new contract between you and the patient. > > The point is that if you allow yourself to experience the patient and > the state of his/her Jing-Qi-Shen you will at any given time be able > to know what that patient needs and not take up precious time with > useless chit-chat which needlessly concume Blood and Qi of both > parties anyway. > > Having two treatment rooms actually accomodates this providing > flexibility! Noone says that both treatment rooms have to be occupied > at all times. > > When a patient comes in I try to fulfill our contract to my very best > ability and sometimes that requires 60-90 minutes (or more, or less) > with a given patient and sometimes it takes as little as 15-20 minutes > everything included. > > After the initial visit you will form a basic idea of the condition > and prognosis of the patient. This will allow you to, not alone help > the patient better, but also schedule your time around what you expect > to be enough for your individual patients and what you, yourself > require as a practitioner to preserve your own health and thus sustain > you own growth, which is primary to that of the patient's growth... > everybody wins! > > Hope this makes sense > > humbly, > > Thomas > > ----- > Klinik AiKi - Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > 5000 Odense C > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > I briefly scanned Tom's message about this. This was the whole crux > of our treatment philosphy in 5E. A relationship is formed and the > patient grows over time, much beyond the original signs and symptoms. > The downside of our tx learning is we do a lot of talking (or someone > does - tha patient or us) and it is a challenge to get ot run the > business with two patients in a time slot. It really can be done > efficiently, allowing the patiient to be alone with the needles and > get to the message with fewer words. Real healing comes with internal > change - attitudes about who we are as homosapiens on this planet. > Sure we have real backpain and we want to help the patient soon; but > what got them into that in the first place, maybe repetive use and > maybe not. Are they happy, peaceful? And do they want to be.. My > philosphy is to let people know they have choice. They can change > anything, anytime. They may not be able to change the circumstances > they are in (in the short run) but the > > y can sure change their mind about it. > > > > Anne > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Hi Anne, I always enjoy your posts btw! We are in total agreeance ...and, personally, I really enjoy the talks I have with my patients - getting familar with them... and myself at the same time If you take the time to really hear them when they need it, it will, needless to say, introduce a much different quality to the treatment. Except from maybe sparking a healing process in the individual you will also tend to get rewarded with nice gestures like when patients invite you over to see their new kitchen or have a cup of coffee - That sort of thing (Mind you I never accept such invitations, but respectfully decline!) ..and even better when they trust you enough to bring in relatives, spouses or even thei children in for treatment or to just meet " the acupuncturist that changed their lives. " humbly, Thomas Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Thanks Thomas, > > When I first read this last night, I said, " Hmm, what is he getting at here. " > It's a head turner, when my name appears in the salutation, so I read it again > more carefully. > > I believe there are several points that you are making. One of them I learned > the hard way, while in the clinic and early in my practice. You cannot push a > person to move faster than they are ready to do. You can, however probe, when > you think the time is right. Usually this requires a risk on our part. " Throw > yourself on the altar of healing " as one practitioner put it. > > One way I explain my treatments is that we can go to 3 levels. One is the > symtom level, the next level - what caused the symptoms (which we are really > doing in step one as well), and three deeper life changing spiritual issues > (your spirit). I really think we do all three of these simultaneously, but once > the symptoms are under control, people can go so much deeper with this medicine > if they want to go there. > > Thomas, your point is well taken about the talking. It is a challenge for me. > My practitioner allows me a lot of talking and I quite frankly like it. > However, one does not have to do it to get to the core issues. > > So Thomas, again I wrestle with how long to spend talking, how far to probe a > patient. I appreciate your comments. If I expect (I mean hope) my patients > will grow, I have to be willing to do that also. > > Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Thomas Boegedal Soerensen " <> > > Hi Anne, > > > > Thank you for taking the time! There is so much to be said/discussed > > about this(these) issue(s) which stand(s) so close to my heart and > > imho the very center of CM/OM - not just the 5E version > > > > I haven't put this into words before and might be lacking in coherence > > - I apologize! > > > > Oftentimes patients does not need to be listened to, but to be heard - > > and to have their true nature acknowledged! And that does not > > necessarily take hours or even minutes to do this. > > > > I usually think of the initial consultation as a meeting where the > > patient(unconsciously) and I(consciously) negotiate the terms of an > > unwritten and unspoken contract. This contract is purely a contract > > based on the Jing-Qi-Shen interaction between us. This contract is > > renegotiable, since everything and everybody are always in > > transformation! > > > > The contract establishes what the patient hopes to achieve from > > consultation/treatment and gives me a pointer towards what the > > patients current potential is in terms of Jing-Qi-Shen, prognosis, > > etc. might be. > > > > Most often patients have specific problems they want to get rid of, a > > tennis elbow, emotional problems, cancer, whatever the symptom, but > > the point here is to see where they are as individuals and > > treat/interact accordingly - not exerting my ambition of wanting a > > so-called better life for them. > > > > A patient MUST give an invitation to help him/her initiate change > > towards realizing true nature/potential - it cannot be forced on > > anybody and trying to will make sure that patients will not come back > > for (maintanaince) treatments after their initial complaints have been > > taken care of because YOU as a practitioner has broken trust by trying > > to change the initial contract without inviting the patient to > > renegotiate the terms and you will have done him/her/yourself a > > disservice by breaking this trust. > > > > Sometimes people need to only have their symptoms fixed because that > > is all their current state of Jing-Qi-Shen allows; sometimes they will > > invite you to help them change what caused their symptoms to appear in > > the first place; and sometimes, through treatment, the patients > > Jing-Qi-Shen improves enough for them to start realizing that their > > symptoms are expressions of something more than just: eating wrong, > > working long hours, etc. and then invite you - presuming that you are > > always interested in the development of potential in any given patient > > (and, of course, yourself) at any given time - to renegotiate the > > terms of a new contract between you and the patient. > > > > The point is that if you allow yourself to experience the patient and > > the state of his/her Jing-Qi-Shen you will at any given time be able > > to know what that patient needs and not take up precious time with > > useless chit-chat which needlessly concume Blood and Qi of both > > parties anyway. > > > > Having two treatment rooms actually accomodates this providing > > flexibility! Noone says that both treatment rooms have to be occupied > > at all times. > > > > When a patient comes in I try to fulfill our contract to my very best > > ability and sometimes that requires 60-90 minutes (or more, or less) > > with a given patient and sometimes it takes as little as 15-20 minutes > > everything included. > > > > After the initial visit you will form a basic idea of the condition > > and prognosis of the patient. This will allow you to, not alone help > > the patient better, but also schedule your time around what you expect > > to be enough for your individual patients and what you, yourself > > require as a practitioner to preserve your own health and thus sustain > > you own growth, which is primary to that of the patient's growth... > > everybody wins! > > > > Hope this makes sense > > > > humbly, > > > > Thomas > > > > ----- > > Klinik AiKi - Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > I briefly scanned Tom's message about this. This was the whole crux > > of our treatment philosphy in 5E. A relationship is formed and the > > patient grows over time, much beyond the original signs and symptoms. > > The downside of our tx learning is we do a lot of talking (or someone > > does - tha patient or us) and it is a challenge to get ot run the > > business with two patients in a time slot. It really can be done > > efficiently, allowing the patiient to be alone with the needles and > > get to the message with fewer words. Real healing comes with internal > > change - attitudes about who we are as homosapiens on this planet. > > Sure we have real backpain and we want to help the patient soon; but > > what got them into that in the first place, maybe repetive use and > > maybe not. Are they happy, peaceful? And do they want to be.. My > > philosphy is to let people know they have choice. They can change > > anything, anytime. They may not be able to change the circumstances > > they are in (in the short run) but the > > > y can sure change their mind about it. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Thomas, You mention being invited to patients' homes and " respectfully declining. " I would appreciate any insight from you, or anyone else on this list, on how to do that. Because I'm such a friendly person, I've had a number of patients want to go out to lunch with me, or have me visit their homes to see their garden or such. How do you say no without hurting someone's feelings? Thanks, Liz - Thomas Boegedal Soerensen Chinese Medicine Monday, January 29, 2007 6:51 AM Re: Treatment Philosophy Hi Anne, I always enjoy your posts btw! We are in total agreeance ...and, personally, I really enjoy the talks I have with my patients - getting familar with them... and myself at the same time If you take the time to really hear them when they need it, it will, needless to say, introduce a much different quality to the treatment. Except from maybe sparking a healing process in the individual you will also tend to get rewarded with nice gestures like when patients invite you over to see their new kitchen or have a cup of coffee - That sort of thing (Mind you I never accept such invitations, but respectfully decline!) ..and even better when they trust you enough to bring in relatives, spouses or even thei children in for treatment or to just meet " the acupuncturist that changed their lives. " humbly, Thomas Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Thanks Thomas, > > When I first read this last night, I said, " Hmm, what is he getting at here. " > It's a head turner, when my name appears in the salutation, so I read it again > more carefully. > > I believe there are several points that you are making. One of them I learned > the hard way, while in the clinic and early in my practice. You cannot push a > person to move faster than they are ready to do. You can, however probe, when > you think the time is right. Usually this requires a risk on our part. " Throw > yourself on the altar of healing " as one practitioner put it. > > One way I explain my treatments is that we can go to 3 levels. One is the > symtom level, the next level - what caused the symptoms (which we are really > doing in step one as well), and three deeper life changing spiritual issues > (your spirit). I really think we do all three of these simultaneously, but once > the symptoms are under control, people can go so much deeper with this medicine > if they want to go there. > > Thomas, your point is well taken about the talking. It is a challenge for me. > My practitioner allows me a lot of talking and I quite frankly like it. > However, one does not have to do it to get to the core issues. > > So Thomas, again I wrestle with how long to spend talking, how far to probe a > patient. I appreciate your comments. If I expect (I mean hope) my patients > will grow, I have to be willing to do that also. > > Anne > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Thomas Boegedal Soerensen " <> > > Hi Anne, > > > > Thank you for taking the time! There is so much to be said/discussed > > about this(these) issue(s) which stand(s) so close to my heart and > > imho the very center of CM/OM - not just the 5E version > > > > I haven't put this into words before and might be lacking in coherence > > - I apologize! > > > > Oftentimes patients does not need to be listened to, but to be heard - > > and to have their true nature acknowledged! And that does not > > necessarily take hours or even minutes to do this. > > > > I usually think of the initial consultation as a meeting where the > > patient(unconsciously) and I(consciously) negotiate the terms of an > > unwritten and unspoken contract. This contract is purely a contract > > based on the Jing-Qi-Shen interaction between us. This contract is > > renegotiable, since everything and everybody are always in > > transformation! > > > > The contract establishes what the patient hopes to achieve from > > consultation/treatment and gives me a pointer towards what the > > patients current potential is in terms of Jing-Qi-Shen, prognosis, > > etc. might be. > > > > Most often patients have specific problems they want to get rid of, a > > tennis elbow, emotional problems, cancer, whatever the symptom, but > > the point here is to see where they are as individuals and > > treat/interact accordingly - not exerting my ambition of wanting a > > so-called better life for them. > > > > A patient MUST give an invitation to help him/her initiate change > > towards realizing true nature/potential - it cannot be forced on > > anybody and trying to will make sure that patients will not come back > > for (maintanaince) treatments after their initial complaints have been > > taken care of because YOU as a practitioner has broken trust by trying > > to change the initial contract without inviting the patient to > > renegotiate the terms and you will have done him/her/yourself a > > disservice by breaking this trust. > > > > Sometimes people need to only have their symptoms fixed because that > > is all their current state of Jing-Qi-Shen allows; sometimes they will > > invite you to help them change what caused their symptoms to appear in > > the first place; and sometimes, through treatment, the patients > > Jing-Qi-Shen improves enough for them to start realizing that their > > symptoms are expressions of something more than just: eating wrong, > > working long hours, etc. and then invite you - presuming that you are > > always interested in the development of potential in any given patient > > (and, of course, yourself) at any given time - to renegotiate the > > terms of a new contract between you and the patient. > > > > The point is that if you allow yourself to experience the patient and > > the state of his/her Jing-Qi-Shen you will at any given time be able > > to know what that patient needs and not take up precious time with > > useless chit-chat which needlessly concume Blood and Qi of both > > parties anyway. > > > > Having two treatment rooms actually accomodates this providing > > flexibility! Noone says that both treatment rooms have to be occupied > > at all times. > > > > When a patient comes in I try to fulfill our contract to my very best > > ability and sometimes that requires 60-90 minutes (or more, or less) > > with a given patient and sometimes it takes as little as 15-20 minutes > > everything included. > > > > After the initial visit you will form a basic idea of the condition > > and prognosis of the patient. This will allow you to, not alone help > > the patient better, but also schedule your time around what you expect > > to be enough for your individual patients and what you, yourself > > require as a practitioner to preserve your own health and thus sustain > > you own growth, which is primary to that of the patient's growth... > > everybody wins! > > > > Hope this makes sense > > > > humbly, > > > > Thomas > > > > ----- > > Klinik AiKi - Akupunktur & Orientalsk Medicin > > Albanigade 23A, Kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > > > Tlf.: (+45) 31 25 92 26 > > www.orientalskmedicin.dk > > > > > > > > > I briefly scanned Tom's message about this. This was the whole crux > > of our treatment philosphy in 5E. A relationship is formed and the > > patient grows over time, much beyond the original signs and symptoms. > > The downside of our tx learning is we do a lot of talking (or someone > > does - tha patient or us) and it is a challenge to get ot run the > > business with two patients in a time slot. It really can be done > > efficiently, allowing the patiient to be alone with the needles and > > get to the message with fewer words. Real healing comes with internal > > change - attitudes about who we are as homosapiens on this planet. > > Sure we have real backpain and we want to help the patient soon; but > > what got them into that in the first place, maybe repetive use and > > maybe not. Are they happy, peaceful? And do they want to be.. My > > philosphy is to let people know they have choice. They can change > > anything, anytime. They may not be able to change the circumstances > > they are in (in the short run) but the > > > y can sure change their mind about it. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Hi Liz, I'd like to believe that I am friendly person to The patient/therapist relationship is sacred to me! Patients are patients, much as students are students, and masters are masters and should/could never be friends. Because I DO think that accepting such an offer poses a risk to the socalled therapeutic intervention. We will lose our benefit of a strictly professional/therapeutic relationship and trust/intimacy is at risk of getting compromised. Once in a while there are people that I would like to have conversations with outside of the clinic, but I brace myself! The way I go about is different from situation to situation however I might say somthing straight forward like: " I truly appreciate the offer, but I have to decline " without offering explanation of why, but with deepfelt sincerity - I AM truly touched when a patient offers me trust and friendship in such a way! I have never experienced anyone become offended on that account - often they will bring a small present instead, which I accept. Hope this helps! Kind regards, Thomas Chinese Medicine , Liz <lizzzrd wrote: > > Thomas, You mention being invited to patients' homes and " respectfully declining. " I would appreciate any insight from you, or anyone else on this list, on how to do that. Because I'm such a friendly person, I've had a number of patients want to go out to lunch with me, or have me visit their homes to see their garden or such. How do you say no without hurting someone's feelings? > Thanks, Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 > How do you say no without hurting someone's feelings? > I thank them but say that I am unfortunately really busy. Or you can hide behind the code of ethics " I would love to, but unfortunately I am not allowed to socialise with clients " . Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 After many months or years treating some patients the relationship can get quite murky. What started out as a purely therapeutic relationship morphs into a friendship relationship. In my experience this typically ends the therapeutic relationship unfortunately. I find it impossible to be effective as a practitioner while being " their friend " . This can be challenging as I have many patients that I really like, and if circumstances were different I would love to socialize with. After a few such experiences however I know how it spells the demise of the sacred space I hold for my patients. The therapeutic relationship is very special and unlike any other. In my experience it can't co-exist with any other kind of relationships we have. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Artemis Papert Monday, January 29, 2007 10:02 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Treatment Philosophy > How do you say no without hurting someone's feelings? > I thank them but say that I am unfortunately really busy. Or you can hide behind the code of ethics " I would love to, but unfortunately I am not allowed to socialise with clients " . Artemis -- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.14/658 - Release Date: 1/29/2007 2:49 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 This is not meant as a specific reply to Mr. Papert, but more as a comment on treatment philosophy in general! One important thing here is that you do not have to justify your actions in this given situation - it will put you in a defensive position, which your patients will be confused about and/or take a dislike to! Noone wins! It will certainly drain you of your Qi and Blood! Another important point here is integrity. If you can't keep your integrity in this seemingly insignificant situation then where can you keep your integrity?! " Hide behind " is also a defensive position - why do you have to be on the defence?! There is nothing to be afraid of! My point here is to state clearly that everything you do, how and what you say matters in the treatment room and in any of your life's situations - no matter how insignificant it might seem to you at the time it might mean a world of difference to somebody else. I am not suggesting to " watch your step " all the time, but to take some time to work on your integrity/self-development - find out where your strengths and weaknesses are and perfect your strengths and better your weaknesses remembering that Shen moves the Qi and you must nurture the Yin to transform the Yang! Think positive and your messages will come through in a positive manner! ...you will build and improve on your clinic, your daily life as well as on your own constitution - a win/win situation! ....this WILL shine through! Chinese Medicine , " Artemis Papert " <artemis.artemis wrote: > > > How do you say no without hurting someone's feelings? > > > I thank them but say that I am unfortunately really busy. Or you can hide > behind the code of ethics " I would love to, but unfortunately I am not > allowed to socialise with clients " . > > Artemis > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I often ask people what they would do if their pain, etc. were not there. They almost can't answer. They are so use to living with it and may have created a road map in the brain as Dr. Joe Esperensa says in What the Bleep. The trick is undoing that roadmap and they have to be willing to go there. Jump in the black hole. I guess what I was saying Artemis is that they do realize you can help. You do relieve the pain. Then they bolt or another crisis occurs because they really don't want to give up the pain med. Or maybe it's the patterning in the brain. This is not every patient, thank goodness, but it is something I have been noticing in some patients lately. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Artemis Papert " <artemis.artemis > Hello, > > > I have been coming to a realization lately. I think there are people > > hooked on medications in this country,.... > > > Or hooked to their disease/problem. They'll disappear as soon as they > realise that you could REALLY help them. I once knew this person who was > always run down with colds and feeling exhausted. One day she says " If I had > more energy I don't know what I'd do with it " ! > > Artemis > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 After a long discussion with a practitioner about the Daoist idea of pathology as pattern difficulty or transitional dysfunction (as opposed to the war model that says you must eradicate all so called pathogens from invading the body-mind), i then proceeded to ask a patient right from the start " so tell me what is working in your life, where is your passion? " As i am an intern, this patient has seen multiple other students as well, and was dumb-struck at the question. At this point, i must confess, as the air layed heavy and she realised that she thought primarily in terms of what was wrong, i was a bit uncomfortable as well...but i persisted, well i waited. What is the more interesting is that now i do this with every patient, and so very often get one of two responses, either firstly as with this patient they say " well i just don't think about that... " and then as if a cork has been removed from their spirit they then volunteer positive information throughout the session (which is simply fantastic to observe) or they immediately say the first thing, which is usually a pat answer such as " well i'm alive... " , but then sink in (oft i'll ask the question again using a different tact), and they'll come back in the next session ready to tell me all the positive things in their lives. What i realise with this is that i am not treating their pathology, i am treating the Spirit, i am not an allopath ready to dissect out what is wrong, it's much more subtle than that. We have to ask ourselves " am i living in a positive state? Do i think in terms of what is working in my life or am i content with focusing on what's wrong and living there? " The wonderfully disciplined aspect for me is that every patient i treat is mirroring where i am in my evolution, this truly is the concept of dharma. Regards, Tymothy Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > > I often ask people what they would do if their pain, etc. were not there. They almost can't answer. They are so use to living with it and may have created a road map in the brain as Dr. Joe Esperensa says in What the Bleep. The trick is undoing that roadmap and they have to be willing to go there. Jump in the black hole. > > I guess what I was saying Artemis is that they do realize you can help. You do relieve the pain. Then they bolt or another crisis occurs because they really don't want to give up the pain med. Or maybe it's the patterning in the brain. This is not every patient, thank goodness, but it is something I have been noticing in some patients lately. > > Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi all, I must express support for Tymothy on this one. I find that perhaps as a profession there is too much focus on " T " CM, and not enough on what our roots actually are. Every patient who walks through our doors is a living, breathing buddha or sage, perhaps mostly asleep, but there nonetheless. The attitude I take in clinic is to assume that every single patient knows pretty much _exactly_ what is wrong with them, and is only looking for two things: 1. someone whom they feel safe enough to share it with 2. a way to express it and contextualise it. It then becomes my job to help them feel safe, provide some ideas that will help catalyse their own development and insight, and to help contextualise (in this case) using . From there we can find a road that is honest to the tremendously varied factors that are present. Hugo miracles28 <jellyphish wrote: After a long discussion with a practitioner about the Daoist idea of pathology as pattern difficulty or transitional dysfunction (as opposed to the war model that says you must eradicate all so called pathogens from invading the body-mind), i then proceeded to ask a patient right from the start " so tell me what is working in your life, where is your passion? " As i am an intern, this patient has seen multiple other students as well, and was dumb-struck at the question. At this point, i must confess, as the air layed heavy and she realised that she thought primarily in terms of what was wrong, i was a bit uncomfortable as well...but i persisted, well i waited. What is the more interesting is that now i do this with every patient, and so very often get one of two responses, either firstly as with this patient they say " well i just don't think about that... " and then as if a cork has been removed from their spirit they then volunteer positive information throughout the session (which is simply fantastic to observe) or they immediately say the first thing, which is usually a pat answer such as " well i'm alive... " , but then sink in (oft i'll ask the question again using a different tact), and they'll come back in the next session ready to tell me all the positive things in their lives. What i realise with this is that i am not treating their pathology, i am treating the Spirit, i am not an allopath ready to dissect out what is wrong, it's much more subtle than that. We have to ask ourselves " am i living in a positive state? Do i think in terms of what is working in my life or am i content with focusing on what's wrong and living there? " The wonderfully disciplined aspect for me is that every patient i treat is mirroring where i am in my evolution, this truly is the concept of dharma. Regards, Tymothy Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > > I often ask people what they would do if their pain, etc. were not there. They almost can't answer. They are so use to living with it and may have created a road map in the brain as Dr. Joe Esperensa says in What the Bleep. The trick is undoing that roadmap and they have to be willing to go there. Jump in the black hole. > > I guess what I was saying Artemis is that they do realize you can help. You do relieve the pain. Then they bolt or another crisis occurs because they really don't want to give up the pain med. Or maybe it's the patterning in the brain. This is not every patient, thank goodness, but it is something I have been noticing in some patients lately. > > Anne New Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out more at the Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi Tymothy, & All, > After a long discussion with a practitioner about the Daoist idea of > pathology as pattern difficulty or transitional dysfunction (as > opposed to the war model that says you must eradicate all so called > pathogens from invading the body-mind), i then proceeded to ask a > patient right from the start " so tell me what is working in your life, > where is your passion? " As i am an intern, this patient has seen > multiple other students as well, and was dumb-struck at the question. > At this point, i must confess, as the air layed heavy and she realised > that she thought primarily in terms of what was wrong, i was a bit > uncomfortable as well...but i persisted, well i waited. What is the > more interesting is that now i do this with every patient, and so very > often get one of two responses, either firstly as with this patient > they say " well i just don't think about that... " and then as if a cork > has been removed from their spirit they then volunteer positive > information throughout the session (which is simply fantastic to > observe) or they immediately say the first thing, which is usually a > pat answer such as " well i'm alive... " , but then sink in (oft i'll ask > the question again using a different tact), and they'll come back in > the next session ready to tell me all the positive things in their > lives. Right on target! Bing Crosby is crooning in my ear: " Accentuate the Positive, Eliminate the Negative, Don't Mess with Mister In-between " . And I hear the words of a Great Teacher who said: " I would that you be hot or cold; but because you are lukewarm I will vomit you out of my mouth. " Have you taken the SILVA METHOD of positive thinking / stress control? I took it in the 1970s, repeated in the 80s, and found it fantastic. Your question to new patients really cuts to the quick. The physical / mental and spiritual health status of " people without passion " could be a topic for another day. > What i realise with this is that i am not treating their pathology, i > am treating the Spirit. Again, spot on target, IMO. The Spirit/Shen/Psyche is critical in most chronic health problems. > i am not an allopath ready to dissect out what is wrong, it's much > more subtle than that. We have to ask ourselves " am i living in a > positive state? Do i think in terms of what is working in my life or am > i content with focusing on what's wrong and living there? " The > wonderfully disciplined aspect for me is that every patient i treat is > mirroring where i am in my evolution, this truly is the concept of > dharma. Regards, Tymothy Having asked " what turns you on / fires you up / is your passion " , one might follow up later sessions with the opposite: " what turns you off / douses your fires / is your phobia/terror " . Discussion of those aspects can be very revealing for patient and therapist. We cannot treat " the whole patient " adequately unless we know their background - loves and hates, joys and sorrows, etc. We cannot know that without discussion. Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Hi all, I must express support for Tymothy on this one. . . Every patient who walks through our doors is a living, breathing buddha or sage, perhaps mostly asleep, but there nonetheless. The attitude I take in clinic is to assume that every single patient knows pretty much _exactly_ what is wrong with them, and is only looking for two things: 1. someone whom they feel safe enough to share it with 2. a way to express it and contextualise it. It then becomes my job to help them feel safe, provide some ideas that will help catalyse their own development and insight, and to help contextualise (in this case) using . From there we can find a road that is honest to the tremendously varied factors that are present. Hugo yes, yes. i just had an interesting experience in clinic, today with a patient. i had gone to the Dr. Tan seminar in Raleigh, NC last week-end, so of course this week several appropriate patients for that style tx presented. the patient today had some acute knee pain, in the background of some emo/spiritual changes she is working through. i had tx her wed. for the pain, and requested she rtn today for follow-up. the pain was worse post tx. i explained to her that i felt the injury occured in the context of the stress she is dealing with which has weakened her immune fx (due to para/sym, fight or flight responce) and that the pain has an emo. cause. she is quite ready to do the emo work. so i put in several needles in the opp. limb to address the pain, utilizing ht/pc in tan's system. while asking her to move the knee and assess improvement, i removed a sj pt. and the floodgates opened up. boy did she release. as she cried and i stayed present, she confided that she feels isolated, though she has many close friends to whom she can talk, they are often busy, etc. its the classic case of just needed a compassionate, heartfelt shoulder to cry on. as others have noted in this stream, the healings often not about the TCM, its about a ht connection needed for the healing to occur. and yes, the patients are sages, sometimes we forget. they come in trying to comm. what is wrong and what needs to be done to heal, we just need to see the signs, sometimes revealed in an off-handed comment, sometimes in an odd sx that acutely appears, sometimes in the P. they'll find a way to comm. to us what must be done, we just need to listen and observe. k -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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