Guest guest Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 i looked at your website and noticed you're selling chinese patent herbs and other products on the web. do you require a phone consult prior to dispensing the herbs? kb On 1/24/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I have found acufinder very effective. Also when I have a patient moving > out of state or a family member out of state, I find an AP from acufinder, > call and see if they are a good fit for the patient. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > There seem to be lots of internet advertising opportunities now-a-days, > such as listings on a site, such as acufinder. > > I wondered if people would be willing to share what has worked for them - > or not worked. > I tried google adwords. It was hard to track if it brought in clients but > it's afterall very inexpensive once you actually have a website. > Angela Pf > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 No I don't require it. But I do contact them by email and give them cautions and encourage them to contact me if questions or see their local herbalist/acupuncturist. Most of the folks already have seen an ap, but they are unable to get herbs from the ap or in a remote area. Others are purchases such as Gan Mao Ling Wan or Bi Yan Pian which don't really need intense diagnostic work. There are other formulas that I stock but don't put on the website because they do require more input or effort from an herbalist. Bob www.acuherbals.com " " wrote: i looked at your website and noticed you're selling chinese patent herbs and other products on the web. do you require a phone consult prior to dispensing the herbs? kb On 1/24/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I have found acufinder very effective. Also when I have a patient moving > out of state or a family member out of state, I find an AP from acufinder, > call and see if they are a good fit for the patient. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > There seem to be lots of internet advertising opportunities now-a-days, > such as listings on a site, such as acufinder. > > I wondered if people would be willing to share what has worked for them - > or not worked. > I tried google adwords. It was hard to track if it brought in clients but > it's afterall very inexpensive once you actually have a website. > Angela Pf > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Kath- I think this is a great question. I have often pondered selling herbs on my own website (which is currently still just a dream), and have wondered how I would handle the professional aspects of proper pattern identification and prescription when I cannot personally see/hear/smell, etc. the prospective " patient " to confirm what they are telling me, and would be lacking these sensory clues which often prompt me to ask questions I otherwise might not think to ask. I know there are many acupuncturists, and even people who are not acupuncturists who sell Chinese herbal formulas online, and I don't know how they do it - ethically, legally, and professionally. Also, there is the aspect that many herbal manufacturers attempt to prevent this sort of sale, and I don't know how those who do sell herbal formulas online get around that. If there's anyone on this list who does this, I'd like to know your thoughts and experience with it. I know this discussion is one potentially big can of worms, but I think it is worth talking about. My father recently was looking for information about Haradas disease treatments for my sister, and found a group of acupuncturists online operating out of England, who sell pretty potent herbal formulas with the only requirement being a health history form to fill out. There is no way to call them, yet they say they will modify your formula based on your questionnaire. Their disclaimer is that they do not recommend herbal use without a personal consultation, but they do not require it. When you buy their herbs, they sell 6 months' worth at a time, for several hundreds of dollars. I looked at the formula they had for Haradas disease, which included many of the herbs I would have thought to use for that condition as it is described in medical journals, but those descriptions do not at all match my sister's pattern differentiation. It was a good learning experience which made my hair stand on end and also prompts my questions here. " " wrote: i looked at your website and noticed you're selling chinese patent herbs and other products on the web. do you require a phone consult prior to dispensing the herbs? kb On 1/24/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I have found acufinder very effective. Also when I have a patient moving > out of state or a family member out of state, I find an AP from acufinder, > call and see if they are a good fit for the patient. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > There seem to be lots of internet advertising opportunities now-a-days, > such as listings on a site, such as acufinder. > > I wondered if people would be willing to share what has worked for them - > or not worked. > I tried google adwords. It was hard to track if it brought in clients but > it's afterall very inexpensive once you actually have a website. > Angela Pf > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western medicine claims. As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my rights to use and buy it if I want!) Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. Love to hear from others on their thoughts... Bob www.acuherbals.com < wrote: Kath- I think this is a great question. I have often pondered selling herbs on my own website (which is currently still just a dream), and have wondered how I would handle the professional aspects of proper pattern identification and prescription when I cannot personally see/hear/smell, etc. the prospective " patient " to confirm what they are telling me, and would be lacking these sensory clues which often prompt me to ask questions I otherwise might not think to ask. I know there are many acupuncturists, and even people who are not acupuncturists who sell Chinese herbal formulas online, and I don't know how they do it - ethically, legally, and professionally. Also, there is the aspect that many herbal manufacturers attempt to prevent this sort of sale, and I don't know how those who do sell herbal formulas online get around that. If there's anyone on this list who does this, I'd like to know your thoughts and experience with it. I know this discussion is one potentially big can of worms, but I think it is worth talking about. My father recently was looking for information about Haradas disease treatments for my sister, and found a group of acupuncturists online operating out of England, who sell pretty potent herbal formulas with the only requirement being a health history form to fill out. There is no way to call them, yet they say they will modify your formula based on your questionnaire. Their disclaimer is that they do not recommend herbal use without a personal consultation, but they do not require it. When you buy their herbs, they sell 6 months' worth at a time, for several hundreds of dollars. I looked at the formula they had for Haradas disease, which included many of the herbs I would have thought to use for that condition as it is described in medical journals, but those descriptions do not at all match my sister's pattern differentiation. It was a good learning experience which made my hair stand on end and also prompts my questions here. " " wrote: i looked at your website and noticed you're selling chinese patent herbs and other products on the web. do you require a phone consult prior to dispensing the herbs? kb On 1/24/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I have found acufinder very effective. Also when I have a patient moving > out of state or a family member out of state, I find an AP from acufinder, > call and see if they are a good fit for the patient. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > wrote: > There seem to be lots of internet advertising opportunities now-a-days, > such as listings on a site, such as acufinder. > > I wondered if people would be willing to share what has worked for them - > or not worked. > I tried google adwords. It was hard to track if it brought in clients but > it's afterall very inexpensive once you actually have a website. > Angela Pf > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 My take on it: I don't think there is an issue for him to sell Chinese patent formulas online. Patent formulas don't and shouldn't need prescriptions. I see many acupuncturists (also retailers) sell Chinese patents online and in health food stores including the founder of this forum and I see nothing wrong with it ethically. To sell individual Chinese herbs to make up a formula is when I would say it should be dispensed by a practitioner and not online or in health food stores. I am not sure if we are even allowed to use the word prescription though, only the MD's. (not sure) But to sell Chinese PATENTS online or in a store next to over the counter drugs is fine and will give the consumer an opportunity to choose a Chinese patent formula for their headache instead of choosing a western drug. I would love to hear that a consumer went to CVS/Longs and browsed the aisle and decided not to take the over the counter laxative and chose Persica & Cistanches Formula by Golden Flower. Do you think someone needs a prescription for that Chinese patent formula? I do not! That's the difference between a patent formula and a made up formula for a specific individual. Chinese patents are made specifically for that reason. I think there should be a difference in our field of what should be dispensed by a practitioner and what shouldn't…just like western drugs ie. Prescription and non-prescription/over the counter. So for a consumer/patient to get a Chinese herbal treatment by writing up a formula I think should be done ONLY by a trained practitioner of Chinese herbal medicine. And if they want a Chinese Patent formula, that should be over the counter. (But of course we can sell it to them as well) One of the world's best known authorities on Chinese medicine (well, at least he thinks so , and author of many books on TCM says one may " experiment " with patent formuls. I agree with him (and not just for brownie points..I already graduated My Summary: To get an individualized pattern discrimination Chinese herbal formula SHOULD be by a practitioner. To buy PATENT formulas one need NOT get a prescription. In fact for us to not let a consumer buy Persica & Cistanches Formula for their constipation would be silly and I think THAT would be ethically wrong of us. I am starting to like this forum Thanks, Elie Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western medicine claims. > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my rights to use and buy it if I want!) > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > < wrote: > Kath- > > I think this is a great question. I have often pondered selling herbs on my own website (which is currently still just a dream), and have wondered how I would handle the professional aspects of proper pattern identification and prescription when I cannot personally see/hear/smell, etc. the prospective " patient " to confirm what they are telling me, and would be lacking these sensory clues which often prompt me to ask questions I otherwise might not think to ask. I know there are many acupuncturists, and even people who are not acupuncturists who sell Chinese herbal formulas online, and I don't know how they do it - ethically, legally, and professionally. Also, there is the aspect that many herbal manufacturers attempt to prevent this sort of sale, and I don't know how those who do sell herbal formulas online get around that. If there's anyone on this list who does this, I'd like to know your thoughts and experience with it. I know this discussion is one potentially > big can of worms, but I think it is worth talking about. > > My father recently was looking for information about Haradas disease treatments for my sister, and found a group of acupuncturists online operating out of England, who sell pretty potent herbal formulas with the only requirement being a health history form to fill out. There is no way to call them, yet they say they will modify your formula based on your questionnaire. Their disclaimer is that they do not recommend herbal use without a personal consultation, but they do not require it. When you buy their herbs, they sell 6 months' worth at a time, for several hundreds of dollars. I looked at the formula they had for Haradas disease, which included many of the herbs I would have thought to use for that condition as it is described in medical journals, but those descriptions do not at all match my sister's pattern differentiation. It was a good learning experience which made my hair stand on end and also prompts my questions here. > > > > " " wrote: > i looked at your website and noticed you're selling chinese patent herbs and > other products on the web. do you require a phone consult prior to > dispensing the herbs? > > kb > > On 1/24/07, Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > > > I have found acufinder very effective. Also when I have a patient moving > > out of state or a family member out of state, I find an AP from acufinder, > > call and see if they are a good fit for the patient. > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > Angela Pfaffenberger <angela.pf <angela.pf%40comcast.net>> > > wrote: > > There seem to be lots of internet advertising opportunities now-a-days, > > such as listings on a site, such as acufinder. > > > > I wondered if people would be willing to share what has worked for them - > > or not worked. > > I tried google adwords. It was hard to track if it brought in clients but > > it's afterall very inexpensive once you actually have a website. > > Angela Pf > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that. Tom. ---- elieg1969 26/01/2007 14:53:45 Chinese Medicine Re: Internet herb store Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western medicine claims. > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my rights to use and buy it if I want!) > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > Bob > www.acuherbals.com Recent Activity 14New Members Visit Your Group Give Back for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So that's an interesting use of Liu Wei! - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Friday, January 26, 2007 8:08 AM Re: Internet herb store Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that. Tom. ---- elieg1969 26/01/2007 14:53:45 Chinese Medicine Re: Internet herb store Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western medicine claims. > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my rights to use and buy it if I want!) > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > Bob > www.acuherbals.com Recent Activity 14New Members Visit Your Group Give Back for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? xSec=132. As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available > on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang > wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan > mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with > that. > > Tom. > ---- > > elieg1969 > 26/01/2007 14:53:45 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote: > > > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine > claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely > unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but > that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no > training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the > language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western > medicine claims. > > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled > with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each > formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So > far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus > much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it > up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a > diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma > Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the > public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my > rights to use and buy it if I want!) > > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At > the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of > the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that > likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. > We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on > what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > Recent Activity > 14New Members > Visit Your Group > Give Back > for Good > Get inspired > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > Get it Free! > easy 1-click access > to your groups. > > Start a group > in 3 easy steps. > Connect with others.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Yes, this is a big ball of wax. I had a patient order a Health Concerns product I had prescribed on the internet (from some other website besides Health Concerns.) She made a comment like oh, I ran out so I bought a large bottle on the internet. Yikes. I chose that formula for " her " signs and symptoms. I tried to drive that point home but don't know if I did. I am not trained in herbs (formally), lots of workshops and a willingness to learn. I use only certain formulas that I am comfortable with. If a patient presents with something that I have any question about I ask the herbalist at the company or my own herbalist (who is an hour and a half away). He grills me by the way, with questions. Sometimes it is just not practical to get the formal herbal training or to get patients to go to someone who is formally trained. We have to use our judgement and work in our comfort level. Yes, the Chinese market - it appears that perscription is by " what I heard my neighbor say about it. " Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe > > Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available > on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang > wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan > mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with > that. > > Tom. > ---- > > elieg1969 > 26/01/2007 14:53:45 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine > claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely > unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but > that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no > training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the > language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western > medicine claims. > > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled > with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each > formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So > far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus > much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it > up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a > diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma > Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the > public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my > rights to use and buy it if I want!) > > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At > the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of > the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that > likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. > We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on > what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > Recent Activity > 14New Members > Visit Your Group > Give Back > for Good > Get inspired > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > Get it Free! > easy 1-click access > to your groups. > > Start a group > in 3 easy steps. > Connect with others.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Well, be careful... the Chinese neighbors may be more knowledgeable about herbs than an average New Yorker, for example. I bet a lot of them are. anne.crowley wrote: Yes, this is a big ball of wax. I had a patient order a Health Concerns product I had prescribed on the internet (from some other website besides Health Concerns.) She made a comment like oh, I ran out so I bought a large bottle on the internet. Yikes. I chose that formula for " her " signs and symptoms. I tried to drive that point home but don't know if I did. I am not trained in herbs (formally), lots of workshops and a willingness to learn. I use only certain formulas that I am comfortable with. If a patient presents with something that I have any question about I ask the herbalist at the company or my own herbalist (who is an hour and a half away). He grills me by the way, with questions. Sometimes it is just not practical to get the formal herbal training or to get patients to go to someone who is formally trained. We have to use our judgement and work in our comfort level. Yes, the Chinese market - it appears that perscription is by " what I heard my neighbor say about it. " Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe > > Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available > on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang > wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan > mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with > that. > > Tom. > ---- > > elieg1969 > 26/01/2007 14:53:45 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine > claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely > unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but > that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no > training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the > language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western > medicine claims. > > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled > with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each > formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So > far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus > much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it > up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a > diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma > Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the > public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my > rights to use and buy it if I want!) > > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At > the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of > the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that > likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. > We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on > what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > Recent Activity > 14New Members > Visit Your Group > Give Back > for Good > Get inspired > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > Get it Free! > easy 1-click access > to your groups. > > Start a group > in 3 easy steps. > Connect with others.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 What do you mean, Turya? Most of the Chinese people know that liu wei di huang wan is for yin xu so I can really follow their reasoning that if they do not sleep well and are tired in the evenings,... they will take a yin supplement. We as practitioners may know that tiredness is not a yin xu symptom per se, but the laymen do not always know that. Tom. ---- Turiya Hill 27/01/2007 5:01:08 Chinese Medicine Re: Internet herb store So that's an interesting use of Liu Wei! - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Friday, January 26, 2007 8:08 AM Re: Internet herb store Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that. Tom. Recent Activity 12New Members 1New Links Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Yes, Mike, I see your point. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Mike Liaw <mikeliaw > Well, be careful... the Chinese neighbors may be more knowledgeable about herbs > than an average New Yorker, for example. I bet a lot of them are. > > anne.crowley wrote: Yes, this is a big ball of wax. I had a > patient order a Health Concerns product I had prescribed on the internet (from > some other website besides Health Concerns.) She made a comment like oh, I ran > out so I bought a large bottle on the internet. Yikes. I chose that formula for > " her " signs and symptoms. I tried to drive that point home but don't know if I > did. I am not trained in herbs (formally), lots of workshops and a willingness > to learn. I use only certain formulas that I am comfortable with. If a patient > presents with something that I have any question about I ask the herbalist at > the company or my own herbalist (who is an hour and a half away). He grills me > by the way, with questions. > > Sometimes it is just not practical to get the formal herbal training or to get > patients to go to someone who is formally trained. We have to use our judgement > and work in our comfort level. Yes, the Chinese market - it appears that > perscription is by " what I heard my neighbor say about it. " > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe > > > > Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available > > on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang > > wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan > > mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with > > that. > > > > Tom. > > ---- > > > > elieg1969 > > 26/01/2007 14:53:45 > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Internet herb store > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, > > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > > > > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine > > claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely > > unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but > > that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no > > training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the > > language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western > > medicine claims. > > > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled > > with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each > > formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So > > far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus > > much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it > > up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a > > diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma > > Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the > > public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my > > rights to use and buy it if I want!) > > > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At > > the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of > > the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that > > likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. > > We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on > > what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > > > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > > > Bob > > > www.acuherbals.com > > Recent Activity > > 14New Members > > Visit Your Group > > Give Back > > for Good > > Get inspired > > by a good cause. > > Y! Toolbar > > Get it Free! > > easy 1-click access > > to your groups. > > > > Start a group > > in 3 easy steps. > > Connect with others.. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Bob wrote: " As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my rights to use and buy it if I want!) Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. Love to hear from others on their thoughts... Bob www.acuherbals.com " Bob, This issue came up recently on one of the martial arts forums. It would appear that martial artists who would like to prepare their own Die Da Wan honey pills for use for acute injury find it difficult to get the formula due to the presence of ma haung. As some are typicaly from small towns in the mid-West, it's hard to find an herbalist who could prescribe for them, so their options are to turn to patents that are generally not as effective and/or actually not as safe to use as raw herbs in the first place. Since these are people who (a) understand that they are using a specific formula for a specific purpose over a short period of time, (b) understand the contra-indications and side-effects associated with ma huang, © are NOT using the formula for such foolish purposes as weight-loss or to get more " energy, " and (d) are NOT buying hundreds of pounds of Die Da Wan so that they can somehow extract the ephedrine in the formula in a mid-West amphedamine lab: it seems unfair that they are penalized for being such small fish in a very large pond. Best, Steve Lamade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 TCM is a major feature of Chinese culture. Therefore Chinese people know how to use herb formulas safely. Western medicine is a major feature of Occidental culture. Therefore I know how to perform cholecystectomies safely. Even though I have no training in naturopathic fasting I'm comfortable prescribing an olive oil fast to move gallstones that might x5> the diameter of the bile duct. I think in assertions and intuitions and divine inspiration therefore I'm a safe and ethical practitioner. Oh jeez, omfg, ahhh....., be over there now. JOE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than the US. To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they outlawed all medicinal herbs or just chinese? Bob www.acuherbals.com <attiliodalberto wrote: Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? xSec=132. As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > Let us also not forget that in China, Chinese patents are freely available > on every street corner. Many Chinese people will take some liu wei di huang > wan when they feel tired in the evening and don't sleep that well. Or gan > mao ling when they have a cold. I don't see that there's anything wrong with > that. > > Tom. > ---- > > elieg1969 > 26/01/2007 14:53:45 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote: > > > > Legally herbs are regulated as foods, so long as no western medicine > claims are made there is no real regulation. Herbalism is completely > unregulated....you may have it as part of your scope of practice but > that does not restrict herbalists from practicing with little or no > training. Many herbalists practice TCM sans the needles because the > language that we use allows them to avoid the pitfalls of western > medicine claims. > > As to the ethical end of it, it is something that I struggled > with. I felt that I made clear distinctions as to how to choose each > formula and mentioned cautions as well as possible side effects. So > far internet sales have been slow mainly because I don't really focus > much energy on promoting it yet. So far in the one year I have had it > up no one has tried to order anything I consider unsafe without a > diagnosis...well other than a few folks looking for formulas with Ma > Huang or bulk Ma Huang....I have both but would never sell to the > public and have never actually prescribed internally (but reserve my > rights to use and buy it if I want!) > > Without a doubt it is a difficult issue that has no good answers. At > the moment the webstore pays for itself and that is about it. Most of > the orders do come from small towns that I have never heard of that > likely have no access to APs or herbs so for them its a great service. > We are still a very small company so I am able to keep close tabs on > what goes out to who. So far no one is abusing anything. > > Love to hear from others on their thoughts... > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > Recent Activity > 14New Members > Visit Your Group > Give Back > for Good > Get inspired > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > Get it Free! > easy 1-click access > to your groups. > > Start a group > in 3 easy steps. > Connect with others.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across Europe. Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian law applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen without much media and public attention. I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I respectfully disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, all OTC medicines should be outlawed, right? regards, Tom. ---- Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist 29/01/2007 14:58:39 Chinese Medicine Re: Internet herb store amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than the US. To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they outlawed all medicinal herbs or just chinese? Bob www.acuherbals.com <attiliodalberto wrote: Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? xSec=132. As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Recent Activity 11New Members 1New Links Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Tom, A new European directive was introduced in October 2004, which has to be fully implemented by April 2011. The UK has been quick to implement this law whilst other European countries haven't. But herbal OTC sales have been outlawed. These decisions were made at th European HQ in Belgium! I'm not sure if Belgium uses the same Napolenic laws which means only western MD's can be called doctors or state their ability to treat, but in countries that do use Napolenic law such as France and Spain, herbal medicine will be totally outlawed whether its over the internet or in a clinic. You won't be able to even teach the use of herbs. If you read Stephen Gascoigne's column a few issues ago in Times, he states how this is affecting herbalists in France. I suggest you read the EU herbal regulation article again, carefully http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132 If European countries do not introduce legislation to protect the title of herbalist (which also involves introducing regulation for herbal medicine), the practice of herbal medicine will be outlawed under the new European directive. Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across Europe. > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian law > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen without > much media and public attention. > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I respectfully > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, all OTC > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > regards, > > Tom. > > ---- > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than the US. > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they outlawed > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > xSec=132. > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Recent Activity > 11New Members > 1New Links > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 P.S. That European regulation article i mentioned is to be reprinted in a future issue of Thieme Almanac (central European Chinese medicine journal). Perhaps then people in central Europe will be more aware of the situation. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across Europe. > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian law > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen without > much media and public attention. > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I respectfully > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, all OTC > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > regards, > > Tom. > > ---- > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than the US. > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they outlawed > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > xSec=132. > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Recent Activity > 11New Members > 1New Links > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Great article, For those of you in the US I would recommend checking out the American Herbalists Guild www.americanherbalistsguild.com They have a great conference every year, with amazing speakers and they are working hard to unify and create a standard for all herbalists regardless of system. Bob www.acuherbals.com <attiliodalberto wrote: Tom, A new European directive was introduced in October 2004, which has to be fully implemented by April 2011. The UK has been quick to implement this law whilst other European countries haven't. But herbal OTC sales have been outlawed. These decisions were made at th European HQ in Belgium! I'm not sure if Belgium uses the same Napolenic laws which means only western MD's can be called doctors or state their ability to treat, but in countries that do use Napolenic law such as France and Spain, herbal medicine will be totally outlawed whether its over the internet or in a clinic. You won't be able to even teach the use of herbs. If you read Stephen Gascoigne's column a few issues ago in Times, he states how this is affecting herbalists in France. I suggest you read the EU herbal regulation article again, carefully http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132 If European countries do not introduce legislation to protect the title of herbalist (which also involves introducing regulation for herbal medicine), the practice of herbal medicine will be outlawed under the new European directive. Regards, Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across Europe. > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian law > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen without > much media and public attention. > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I respectfully > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, all OTC > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > regards, > > Tom. > > ---- > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Internet herb store > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than the US. > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they outlawed > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, for > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > xSec=132. > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Recent Activity > 11New Members > 1New Links > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 My apologies. Please pardon my temporary lapse of judgment and proriety. JOE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Okay Bob, you may have opened a can of worms for me. Can't you be included in the American Herbalist Guild after obtaining a distance degree such as Michael Tierra's 36 lessons for 3 types of herbs, Chinese, Auryvedic, and Western. This brings up the question of training again. While you can certainly learn from these programs, I rather prefer someone who has sat in a seat in acupuncture school for 1800, 2000 or 2300 hours. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > Great article, For those of you in the US I would recommend checking out the > American Herbalists Guild www.americanherbalistsguild.com They have a great > conference every year, with amazing speakers and they are working hard to unify > and create a standard for all herbalists regardless of system. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > Tom, > > A new European directive was introduced in October 2004, which has to > be fully implemented by April 2011. The UK has been quick to > implement this law whilst other European countries haven't. But > herbal OTC sales have been outlawed. These decisions were made at th > European HQ in Belgium! > > I'm not sure if Belgium uses the same Napolenic laws which means only > western MD's can be called doctors or state their ability to treat, > but in countries that do use Napolenic law such as France and Spain, > herbal medicine will be totally outlawed whether its over the > internet or in a clinic. You won't be able to even teach the use of > herbs. If you read Stephen Gascoigne's column a few issues ago in > Times, he states how this is affecting herbalists in > France. > > I suggest you read the EU herbal regulation article again, carefully > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132 If European > countries do not introduce legislation to protect the title of > herbalist (which also involves introducing regulation for herbal > medicine), the practice of herbal medicine will be outlawed under the > new European directive. > > Regards, > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " > <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across > Europe. > > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian > law > > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen > without > > much media and public attention. > > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I > respectfully > > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, > all OTC > > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > > > regards, > > > > Tom. > > > > ---- > > > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Internet herb store > > > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than > the US. > > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they > outlawed > > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, > for > > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > > xSec=132. > > > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Recent Activity > > 11New Members > > 1New Links > > Visit Your Group > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 anyone can join, but to be a professional member you have to have a some form of training, letters of recommondation, 4 years clinical experience, and turn in 3 case studies that are reviewed by a three tiered system of other professional members. I know of many people who are turned down. MTs course is a good one and to get his recommendation to be a professional member requires that you attend 3 of his 10 day intensives the last of which is working in his clinic under his direct supervision. I know many people who can memorize really well and pass the herb exam and yet have no ability to work with herbs. For me, I would choose a professional member to treat me with herbs before another acupuncturist. Bob www.acuherbals.com anne.crowley wrote: Okay Bob, you may have opened a can of worms for me. Can't you be included in the American Herbalist Guild after obtaining a distance degree such as Michael Tierra's 36 lessons for 3 types of herbs, Chinese, Auryvedic, and Western. This brings up the question of training again. While you can certainly learn from these programs, I rather prefer someone who has sat in a seat in acupuncture school for 1800, 2000 or 2300 hours. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > Great article, For those of you in the US I would recommend checking out the > American Herbalists Guild www.americanherbalistsguild.com They have a great > conference every year, with amazing speakers and they are working hard to unify > and create a standard for all herbalists regardless of system. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > Tom, > > A new European directive was introduced in October 2004, which has to > be fully implemented by April 2011. The UK has been quick to > implement this law whilst other European countries haven't. But > herbal OTC sales have been outlawed. These decisions were made at th > European HQ in Belgium! > > I'm not sure if Belgium uses the same Napolenic laws which means only > western MD's can be called doctors or state their ability to treat, > but in countries that do use Napolenic law such as France and Spain, > herbal medicine will be totally outlawed whether its over the > internet or in a clinic. You won't be able to even teach the use of > herbs. If you read Stephen Gascoigne's column a few issues ago in > Times, he states how this is affecting herbalists in > France. > > I suggest you read the EU herbal regulation article again, carefully > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132 If European > countries do not introduce legislation to protect the title of > herbalist (which also involves introducing regulation for herbal > medicine), the practice of herbal medicine will be outlawed under the > new European directive. > > Regards, > > Attilio > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " > <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across > Europe. > > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian > law > > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen > without > > much media and public attention. > > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I > respectfully > > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, > all OTC > > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > > > regards, > > > > Tom. > > > > ---- > > > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > > Chinese Medicine > > Re: Internet herb store > > > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than > the US. > > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they > outlawed > > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, > for > > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > > xSec=132. > > > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Recent Activity > > 11New Members > > 1New Links > > Visit Your Group > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks for that background on Tierra's program. There is a graduate of that program in my town, so it helps in knowing the training. I do know that people can acheive this without a college degree and I guess I go back to my bias about that. I strongly believe in liberal arts education with technical education if the field requires. I just think professionals with certificaitons like herbalist, acupuncturists, doctor of anything should have degress, starting with a Bachelors and with the word doctor, an advanced degree of some kind, hopefully a Ph.D or MD or equivalent. Oh, boy I may have opened a flood gate on this education thing. I earned my Masters degree by the age of 25, put myself through college, was not living at home and it was not free education. I guess I am highly biased in this regard but always thought of education as I described above. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > anyone can join, but to be a professional member you have to have a some form of > training, letters of recommondation, 4 years clinical experience, and turn in 3 > case studies that are reviewed by a three tiered system of other professional > members. I know of many people who are turned down. MTs course is a good one > and to get his recommendation to be a professional member requires that you > attend 3 of his 10 day intensives the last of which is working in his clinic > under his direct supervision. > I know many people who can memorize really well and pass the herb exam and yet > have no ability to work with herbs. For me, I would choose a professional member > to treat me with herbs before another acupuncturist. > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > anne.crowley wrote: > Okay Bob, you may have opened a can of worms for me. Can't you be > included in the American Herbalist Guild after obtaining a distance degree such > as Michael Tierra's 36 lessons for 3 types of herbs, Chinese, Auryvedic, and > Western. This brings up the question of training again. While you can certainly > learn from these programs, I rather prefer someone who has sat in a seat in > acupuncture school for 1800, 2000 or 2300 hours. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > > Great article, For those of you in the US I would recommend checking out the > > American Herbalists Guild www.americanherbalistsguild.com They have a great > > conference every year, with amazing speakers and they are working hard to > unify > > and create a standard for all herbalists regardless of system. > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Tom, > > > > A new European directive was introduced in October 2004, which has to > > be fully implemented by April 2011. The UK has been quick to > > implement this law whilst other European countries haven't. But > > herbal OTC sales have been outlawed. These decisions were made at th > > European HQ in Belgium! > > > > I'm not sure if Belgium uses the same Napolenic laws which means only > > western MD's can be called doctors or state their ability to treat, > > but in countries that do use Napolenic law such as France and Spain, > > herbal medicine will be totally outlawed whether its over the > > internet or in a clinic. You won't be able to even teach the use of > > herbs. If you read Stephen Gascoigne's column a few issues ago in > > Times, he states how this is affecting herbalists in > > France. > > > > I suggest you read the EU herbal regulation article again, carefully > > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php?xSec=132 If European > > countries do not introduce legislation to protect the title of > > herbalist (which also involves introducing regulation for herbal > > medicine), the practice of herbal medicine will be outlawed under the > > new European directive. > > > > Regards, > > > > Attilio > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " > > <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm not so sure if selling herbs (online) has been outlawed across > > Europe. > > > Many websites are active, and no changes have been made to Belgian > > law > > > applying to herbs. I don't see that this kind of thing can happen > > without > > > much media and public attention. > > > I'm not sure if outlawing sales of herbs is in fact progress, I > > respectfully > > > disagree with Attilio on this matter. If we follow this reasoning, > > all OTC > > > medicines should be outlawed, right? > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Tom. > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist > > > 29/01/2007 14:58:39 > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Internet herb store > > > > > > amazing since I usually think of Europe as being more liberal than > > the US. > > > To think they would outlaw plant medicine is surprising. Have they > > outlawed > > > all medicinal herbs or just chinese? > > > Bob > > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > > > Selling patents and/or raw herbs online is now illegal in Europe, > > for > > > more info see http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section.php? > > > xSec=132. > > > > > > As i've said on another forum, i'm sure the US will follow and > > > introduce regulation to govern herbal medicine. It's progress. > > > > > > Attilio > > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > > > > Recent Activity > > > 11New Members > > > 1New Links > > > Visit Your Group > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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