gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first place?

[Guest guest]

Ami, thanks for the info.

How does one re-use these gold needles, if you can't autoclave them or boil

them or put them to the flame?

 

" Because you can't autocrave nor boiling

them to ruin the quality of the needles. You use deer skin to polish

them. Before polishing, you may need to straighten the needle by

fingers and sharpen them because they are so soft and easy to bend and

the tip gets rough, too "

 

Instead of using gold needles to create a tonifiying charge, why not use

ion-pumping cords or just use copper handled needles, which conduct

electricity/ qi really well ?

 

In other words, what can gold needles do, that other devices or techniques

can not ?

Thank you.

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John and everyone who are interested in gold needles,

 

Since I know little about gold needles, I thought it would be nice

to have a professional opinion, so I sent e mail to the company in

Japan. I found e mail from them this morning. It was quite long, and

interesting one. I think you would like to read it all. I am trying

to translate it. It may take a while. Please be patient and wait for

it.

 

Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<johnkokko wrote:

>

> Ami, thanks for the info.

> How does one re-use these gold needles, if you can't autoclave

them or boil

> them or put them to the flame?

>

> " Because you can't autocrave nor boiling

> them to ruin the quality of the needles. You use deer skin to

polish

> them. Before polishing, you may need to straighten the needle by

> fingers and sharpen them because they are so soft and easy to bend

and

> the tip gets rough, too "

>

> Instead of using gold needles to create a tonifiying charge, why

not use

> ion-pumping cords or just use copper handled needles, which conduct

> electricity/ qi really well ?

>

> In other words, what can gold needles do, that other devices or

techniques

> can not ?

> Thank you.

> --

> 'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the

understanding of

> a problem.'

>

> Jiddu Krishnamurti

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone who is interested in gold needles,

 

I asked a company in Tokyo who makes needles and guide tubes. They

have been doing buisiness since late priod of the Edo era, about 150

years ago.

 

The person who wrote e mail was so humble and wrote " We are just a

maker... " , but I could learn many things from his writing and I hope

it will help you, too.

 

I feel sorry that my English is not so good that you may not feel

the way I feel from his writing, but his writing in Japanese was

excellent!

 

Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac.

 

Hi Ami,

 

We are just a maker of acupuncture needles, so I am not sure if I

can explain it as you like.

But I can say these things....

 

In Japan, for a long time needles were made of gold, silver and

iron.

Iron needles have switched to stainless steel during the Showa era

(1926~1989).

I believe that the reason we have used gold and silver needles for

several hundred years is the optimal results the practitioner

recieved from using them. If the results were poor, there was no

need to use expensive materials as they don't exist presently.

The problem with iron is that you can't use it for a long time

because it rusts easily and is thick in diameter.

Thin stainless steel needles were so successful that we sold the

products. The reason they were not popular was simple.

At that time acupuncturists said,

" They are not needles. " " You use stainless needles because you

don't have good skills. " " You can't do real treatment by using

stainless needles. " The reputation was bad.

At that time, Serizawa sensei at Tsukuba University invented Pulse

treatment and used the stainless steel needles for the treatment.

This is one of the very few excemptions at that time.

Stainless steel needles were used in China for anestesia. After

that, stainless needles started to be accepted gradually. Because of

their long lasting life and easy maintenance. Stainless needles are

popular now in Japan.

It is true that gold needles are good for tonification.

Speaking of myself, I have been having acupuncture treatment and I

prefer gold needles, then silver needles, then stainless needles. To

tell the truth, I don't care for stainless needles. I feel pretty

tired after treatment. I also don't like the feeling of the invasion

when the needle goes through the skin.

On the other hand, I love the feeling when the silver, especially

the gold needle goes through the skin. I can feel the tissues slowly

wrap around the needles, feels my body warm up, sometimes makes me

fall asleep.

You never feel the same way when you have treatment with stainless

needles.

There are various reasons why acupuncturists place their orders for

gold needles..

" It is because they are effective. " " I tried both and found out

gold needles worked better. " " Using gold, silver and stainless

needles depends on the patients. "

Does gold needles work better because of its ion effect? I don't

know if it is its ion effect, some patients experience their skin

colour get red or body feel warm when the practitioner place the

gold needle not on the skin but above( 5mm~10mm ) the skin.

It is true that gold needles are gentle to the patient and there are

cases practitioner have better result on the same patient.

I think this is why gold needles still exist presently.

It is the best if you can try gold needles by yourself. If you or

your patients feel it is good, it is worth using them.

Talking about copper, it is no good.

It is o.k. when you think about ion in copper, but copper rusts and

produces verdigris, which is toxic for the body.

Lastly,

it is not good if you boil or autoclave gold needles. You can feel

gold needles get little too soft after boiling. It is a very sutle

change, but you would feel it. If it is only once, there should be

no problem, but if you do it many times, you will see the effect.

Using the autoclave produces the same results or worse.

These ideas I hope give you a better understanding .

 

Aoki

 

 

 

* I also searchred internet and found out gold and silver needles

are more elastic and flexible. I think that because of their

elasticity and flexibility, it absorbs the shock when the finger

hits the needle and it alleviates the pain.

 

*Unfortunately, they don't ship abroad because they have to pay $50

of wiring fee at bank to get money and shipment costs a lot.

 

Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ami,

This has been very informative.

However, I still do not see how to sterilize the gold needles for repeat

usage.

Looks like, we'll have to stick with non-reusable gold plated needles for

practice, especially in Cal.U.S.

 

I remember from hear-say that gold needles were only used below the waist,

while silver needles were used above the waist. Maybe someone can debunk or

validate that claim.

 

Also, according to Suzanne Friedman:

" A silver needle is used to sedate or purge from an organ, anatomical body

area, or meridian. A gold needle is used to tonify an organ, body area, or

meridian. One exception is the Japanese technique of using a gold needle to

treat (sedate) musculoskeletal pain. "

http://www.goldenspirit.com/JapaneseMeridiantherapy/suzanne-friedman.html

 

A friend used one gold needle on KD 1 to bring someone out of a coma.

If the ancient practitioners chose gold and silver over other metals, there

must be some reason to look further into this. Thank you for your energy

in translating the material. K.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

Thank you for asking me because I could learn new things, too!

 

There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from Ikeda sensei that

gold was for tonification and silver was more sedative effect as Kath wrote.

I think since our upper body is our yang part and our lower part is our yin

part, we tend to accumulate heat/excess in upper body and cold/deficiency in

lower body, therefore gold needles are for lower body and silver needles are for

upper body.

How to use gold needles in Japan without autoclave nor boiling them is (as far

as I know),

using it just as a contact needle so that it would not invade the skin or

keeping a set of gold needles for an individual as Z'ev mentioned before.

 

Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac.

 

 

 

<johnkokko wrote: Thank

you Ami,

This has been very informative.

However, I still do not see how to sterilize the gold needles for repeat

usage.

Looks like, we'll have to stick with non-reusable gold plated needles for

practice, especially in Cal.U.S.

 

I remember from hear-say that gold needles were only used below the waist,

while silver needles were used above the waist. Maybe someone can debunk or

validate that claim.

 

Also, according to Suzanne Friedman:

" A silver needle is used to sedate or purge from an organ, anatomical body

area, or meridian. A gold needle is used to tonify an organ, body area, or

meridian. One exception is the Japanese technique of using a gold needle to

treat (sedate) musculoskeletal pain. "

http://www.goldenspirit.com/JapaneseMeridiantherapy/suzanne-friedman.html

 

A friend used one gold needle on KD 1 to bring someone out of a coma.

If the ancient practitioners chose gold and silver over other metals, there

must be some reason to look further into this. Thank you for your energy

in translating the material. K.

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English

years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no

longer funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a

serious mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The

practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey.

Unless I missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie,

but not sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles

and translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced

for almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by

Korean officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color,

looking like closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the

benefit described by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I

can be convinced of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

 

[Guest guest]

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English

years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no

longer funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a

serious mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The

practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey.

Unless I missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie,

but not sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles

and translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

[Guest guest]

Don't you think it would be silly to call draining " tomatoes " ? You

yourself understand what is meant even with an inaccurate

translation, but in my experience, most students and practitioners of

CM do not.

 

 

On Jan 29, 2007, at 11:49 AM, wrote:

 

> using that term.

> Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one

> calls it draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I don't have problem with a defined term or acronym used only deeply within

one specialty.

Think about if a layperson is told that the plumber will use tomato to drain

the blocked sewage pipe. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English years

ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no longer

funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a serious

mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The practice

of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey. Unless I

missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie, but not

sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles and

translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

As you pointed out, there has been somewhat of a turnaround in

published works on a more correct use of xie, however the earlier use

of 'sedation' remains the English term of choice among most

practitioners. An example of where force of habit leads to potential

consequences in treatment.

 

 

On Jan 29, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Mike Liaw wrote:

 

> Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of

> translation on Xie.

> Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in

> English years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years

> passed by, it's no longer funny to me because too many people are

> using that term. It's quite a serious mistake, especially IF

> practitioners actually sedate the patients using acupuncture.

> However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

> their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of

> relief as they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The

> remaining concern is the impression to the new practitioners and

> ousiders.

>

> The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's

> The practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by

> Edward Obaidey. Unless I missed something, I have seen only

> draining or shunting used for Xie, but not sedating in this book.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike

At the same time what is sedating a point mean? can a point " feel " sedated?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

 

Alon,

 

I don't have problem with a defined term or acronym used only deeply within

one specialty.

Think about if a layperson is told that the plumber will use tomato to drain

the blocked sewage pipe. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English

years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no

longer funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a

serious mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The

practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey.

Unless I missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie,

but not sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles

and translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Do you mean sedation or draining?

Assuming you mean draining, most like not.

Draining is an effect to be brought upon to the meridian/channel or organ.

A point is only where the needle or finger is applied against, which, together

with the techniques (needle manipulation or Qi direction), brings about the

effect to the channel or organ.

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

At the same time what is sedating a point mean? can a point " feel " sedated?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Alon,

 

I don't have problem with a defined term or acronym used only deeply within one

specialty.

Think about if a layperson is told that the plumber will use tomato to drain the

blocked sewage pipe. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English years

ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no longer

funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a serious

mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The practice

of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey. Unless I

missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie, but not

sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles and

translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ze'v and Mike,

 

Thank you for pointing out!

 

I learned tonification and sedation at my school when I

learned " Tonify mother, sedate son " things. It was my first year and

I automatically thought sedation is the opposite word of

tonification. It is really nice to know about the real meaning of

sedation, thanks Z'ev!

 

And Yes, Mike,

In Ikeda sensei's book, Edward sensei clearly defines Draining and

Shunting in his Translator's introduction. Thank you for mentioning

that!

 

For someone who doesn't have the book,

 

Draining (sha/xie)

*The process whereby stagnant qi, blood, and fluids are discharged

from the body.

*The process which qi is radiated out from the body;this can be done

using heat perception moxibustion or dispersive scatter needling.

*The process whereby blood removed from the body to improve its

flow;this can be done using pricking to bleed, hook needling, and

suppurative moxibustion.

 

Shunting (sha/Xie)

*The process usedto free the movement of stuck qi, blood, and fluids.

*The process used to resupply areas lacking in qi, blood, and fluids.

*The process whereby the yin qi of the qi, blood, and fluids is

increased and the yang qi is decreased or inhibited.

 

If you think it is hard to understand, please get the book and read

whole " Translator's Note " . I bet you will understand them very well

then.

 

The tittle of the book is,

 

The practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxibustion

Masakazu Ikeda Translated by Edward Obaidey

Eastland Press

 

Sha(draining) and sha(shunting) are very similar Chinese caracter.

Draining sha is added water symbols to Shunting sha. So Draining sha

looks to have more drastic effort, on the other hand, Shunting sha

looks more gentle to me. How do you think, Mike?

If I can find any further information, I definitely will post it!

 

Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Mike Liaw

<mikeliaw wrote:

>

> Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of

translation on Xie.

> Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books

in English years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years

passed by, it's no longer funny to me because too many people are

using that term. It's quite a serious mistake, especially IF

practitioners actually sedate the patients using acupuncture.

However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of

relief as they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining

concern is the impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

>

> The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda

Sensei's The practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion

translated by Edward Obaidey. Unless I missed something, I have seen

only draining or shunting used for Xie, but not sedating in this

book.

>

> Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and

silver needles and translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma,

Guang Ya, who practiced for almost 70 years, gave me a few gold

needles that were presented to him by Korean officials. These gold

needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like closer to

24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be

convinced of way to sterilize them. :-)

>

> Mike L.

>

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> Dear Ami,

> Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

> needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

> this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

> character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

> shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

> does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to

sleep,

> to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives

the

> impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

> exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep,

this

> is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

> technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended.

Draining

> means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

> there is repletion of qi.

>

>

> On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

>

> > There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> > Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> > sedative effect as Kath wrote.

>

>

[Guest guest]

So what about the opioid receptors in the brain

(discoved by Candace Pert) and their input into pain response.

Do we not elicit a pain when achieving de qi?

Hmmh, me thinks that there may be more to this then we think.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

________________________________

> Chinese Medicine

> zrosenbe

> Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:50:26 -0800

> Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

>

> Dear Ami,

> Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

> needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

> this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

> character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

> shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

> does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

> to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

> impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

> exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

> is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

> technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

> means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

> there is repletion of qi.

>

> On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

> > There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> > Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> > sedative effect as Kath wrote.

>

[Guest guest]

Mike

I was replying to the idea that the word sedate evokes a drug like effect. To me

it was just a word chosen as something to counter the Excess state of Qi in

acupuncture. If we are to talk about the most appropriate English word than we

again leave the territory of a professional lingo or terms. I guess the image of

language is not as important to me as defined meanings. Anyway it does not

change the way i am using a needle.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 1:25 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

 

Alon,

 

Do you mean sedation or draining?

Assuming you mean draining, most like not.

Draining is an effect to be brought upon to the meridian/channel or organ.

A point is only where the needle or finger is applied against, which, together

with the techniques (needle manipulation or Qi direction), brings about the

effect to the channel or organ.

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

At the same time what is sedating a point mean? can a point " feel " sedated?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Alon,

 

I don't have problem with a defined term or acronym used only deeply within

one specialty.

Think about if a layperson is told that the plumber will use tomato to drain

the blocked sewage pipe. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English

years ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no

longer funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a

serious mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The

practice of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey.

Unless I missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie,

but not sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles

and translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

[Guest guest]

While there is minor tissue damage and irritation with needling,

there doesn't necessarily need to be a pain response to obtaining de

qi, especially if one follows the Japanese definition of de qi (as I

do), where it is the practitioner who becomes aware of the qi

response, not necessarily the patient. I think Candace's work is

great, I've taken seminars with her, and I think one of the 'secrets'

of acupuncture is that it works with what I call the 'internal

pharmacy', the various substances in the body such as

neurotransmitters and hormones to modify, balance and intensify their

effects.

 

 

On Jan 29, 2007, at 1:59 PM, mike Bowser wrote:

 

>

> So what about the opioid receptors in the brain

> (discoved by Candace Pert) and their input into pain response.

> Do we not elicit a pain when achieving de qi?

> Hmmh, me thinks that there may be more to this then we think.

>

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I agree it most likely won't change the way one uses the needle because one is

" in " the field already; as long as it's defined and understood.

 

As to the drug-like effect, I don't know how to bring along that with needles

myself, but I see the possibility of that done by someone. I reserve the usage

of sedation for that type of effects.

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

I was replying to the idea that the word sedate evokes a drug like effect. To me

it was just a word chosen as something to counter the Excess state of Qi in

acupuncture. If we are to talk about the most appropriate English word than we

again leave the territory of a professional lingo or terms. I guess the image of

language is not as important to me as defined meanings. Anyway it does not

change the way i am using a needle.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 1:25 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Alon,

 

Do you mean sedation or draining?

Assuming you mean draining, most like not.

Draining is an effect to be brought upon to the meridian/channel or organ.

A point is only where the needle or finger is applied against, which, together

with the techniques (needle manipulation or Qi direction), brings about the

effect to the channel or organ.

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Mike

At the same time what is sedating a point mean? can a point " feel " sedated?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Alon,

 

I don't have problem with a defined term or acronym used only deeply within one

specialty.

Think about if a layperson is told that the plumber will use tomato to drain the

blocked sewage pipe. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

using that term.

Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one calls it

draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Mike Liaw

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 9:36 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

Hats off to Z'ev for tiredlessly pointing out the issue of translation on Xie.

Since I learned CM in Chinese, when I started reading CM books in English years

ago, I laughed at using sedation for Xie. As years passed by, it's no longer

funny to me because too many people are using that term. It's quite a serious

mistake, especially IF practitioners actually sedate the patients using

acupuncture. However, as I see more and more English-only practitioners doing

their " sedation " work and actually failed to do so I got a sense of relief as

they actully drained or shunted the evil qi. The remaining concern is the

impression to the new practitioners and ousiders.

 

The case in point here: I have read key chapters of Ikeda Sensei's The practice

of Japanese Acupuncture and Moxbustion translated by Edward Obaidey. Unless I

missed something, I have seen only draining or shunting used for Xie, but not

sedating in this book.

 

Indeed, thanks to Ami for getting the information on gold and silver needles and

translating it for us. My late mentor, Prof. Ma, Guang Ya, who practiced for

almost 70 years, gave me a few gold needles that were presented to him by Korean

officials. These gold needles are pretty soft and darker in color, looking like

closer to 24k than 18k gold. I have not used them. Given the benefit described

by Ami's translation, I may give it a try on my own ST36 if I can be convinced

of way to sterilize them. :-)

 

Mike L.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

Dear Ami,

Thank you again for all of the information about gold and silver

needles. However, I did want to point out that several people in

this discussion are still talking about 'sedation'. The Chinese

character xie cannot be translated as sedation, but draining or

shunting. Sedation gives the wrong idea about what the acupuncture

does when using draining technique. Sedation means to put to sleep,

to dull or desensitize. The use of " sedative " or sedation gives the

impression of a drug-like effect for acupuncture which does not

exist. While patients may relax to the point of falling asleep, this

is not the same as ascribing an effect to a specific acupuncture

technique that Chinese or Japanese authors never intended. Draining

means to move qi away from the acupuncture point/hole chosen when

there is repletion of qi.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2007, at 10:37 PM, ami matsumoto wrote:

 

> There is a thing I kept forgetting to tell you. I learned from

> Ikeda sensei that gold was for tonification and silver was more

> sedative effect as Kath wrote.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev

You definitely have more contact than me with students and practitioners but i

would think all technical terms must be learned

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, January 29, 2007 11:55 AM

Re: Re: gold needle sterilizing and why use them in the first

place?

 

 

Don't you think it would be silly to call draining " tomatoes " ? You

yourself understand what is meant even with an inaccurate

translation, but in my experience, most students and practitioners of

CM do not.

 

On Jan 29, 2007, at 11:49 AM, wrote:

 

> using that term.

> Since we are talking about a technical term does it matter if one

> calls it draining or tomatoes? as long as it is defined?

>

>