Guest guest Posted January 14, 2007 Report Share Posted January 14, 2007 Valerie: you raise some valid points i had not considered, and may have prevented me from unwittingly making a huge ethical blunder: i really had not considered the ethics of taking payment directly from a student (even if in trade, not actual cash currency) i would be evaluating for her student record. thank you for raising this important issue. at this point, i have asked her to contact me with a proposal, as i really didn't know what to suggest, since the situation is highly irregular. if/when she contacts me with a proposal, i will ask her to have the clinic director of the school contact me to discuss the matter directly. i suspect that the idea she has proposed will be unacceptable to the school, as you suggest, and the matter will drop. i had been avoiding contacting the school directly, as i'm not really interested in becoming an off campus provider of externships for them, for various reasons, not the least of which being that i have my doubts about the quality of the program, and am not ready to become directly involved in their edu experience at this point in time. i thought in this one case, we might be able to make a mutually beneficial arrangement and eliminate the middleman so to speak by negotiating terms directly with the student involved. i see the ethical folly here, and do not wish to get dragged into any metaphoric sewage. thank you again for speaking up about the issue and sharing your insights. in appreciation, k On 1/13/07, Valerie Hobbs <valeriehobbs wrote: > > I administer a college program, so I want to let you know from my > experience that > accreditaiton standards require that every clinical site where a student > gains experience > has to meet certain criteria, and although private practice sites can be > used, there would > be formal agreement between the supervisor and the school itself. > > So in your situaiton, it may be that the school has not encountered or > fully developed the > criteria, or the student is not giving you the straight story, or doesn't > have enough > information. > > Before I would agree to anything, I would want documentation from the > school that they > will indeed accept this observation, and what their criteria for your > supervision would be. > Imagine going through all this to find out that the student can't use > those hours towards > their program. There should also be clinical learning objectives that the > student would be > required to meet. I would be surprised if an educational experience under > current > accreditation standards can just be negotiated between a private > practitioner and the > student. > > Ethically, any payment for the situation should be directly from the > school to you, and > from the student to the school if the hours are really meant to fulfill > program > requirements. You should have to evaluate the student, and therefore > receiving any > compensation directly from the student would be a conflict of interest. > > Lots of students seek out addtional experience, and they are lucky to get > it. These > situations are privately arranged but they don't confer college credit. > > It's great that you are seeking all this feedback. Wish you the best. > > Valerie Hobbs, Dipl. OM > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " " > wrote: > > > > thanks AB, these are helpful and useful ideas to consider. i'm thinking > the > > observation hours will be time spent following me in clinic. she might > help > > me make herb px, and perhaps do some moxa or cupping (if she's been > taught > > that yet in school, not sure) or massage. i wouldn't ask her to do > office > > work during clinic observation hrs, that should be clinic exp. time for > her. > > she should spend as much time in tx rm with me as possible. i've > determined > > that it seems that the colleges are charging students +/-$15/hr tuition > for > > clinic hours, and they pay an avg of $30 to clinic supervisors. since > this > > trade is her idea, i sent her that info and asked her to make a proposal > to > > me about what she would offer in trade of office work in rtn for an > > externship observing in my clinic, as i'm not really sure what to ask. > > we've discussed tasks/projects that i might ask her to do, ranging from > > computer work to herb pharm. she's sent a proposal with a time estimate > to > > complete the projects, and a varying hrly trade rate, depending on the > > complexity and knowledge required to complete the task. > > > > one thing to consider is that the office work is really an additional > prac > > mngt internship, as she'ld be learning real life prac. mgnt skills they > > would not even mention in school that she'll be able to use in her own > > practice. so its not really grunt work on her part, it would all be a > > valuable learning experience. > > > > i welcome your thoughts/ideas on a trade rate for the externship. > > > > k > > > > > > On 1/12/07, < wrote: > > > > > > Hi Kath, > > > > > > You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to > whether > > > she will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing > also > > > include assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working > > > observation " . If you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you > should > > > also figure out for yourself what this will amount to in hours per > week, and > > > somehow be compensated for that time, in addition to the time she > spends > > > " observing " you. You might also want to specify how many hours per > week will > > > work for you to set aside for this activity. If I were in your shoes, > I'd > > > make it one specific day or half-day per week, and have her work time > be a > > > different day. In terms of how many hours of her time are worth one of > > > yours, I think that's a question open to interpretation. > > > > > > You could have her start working for you several weeks before she > begins > > > observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she > does > > > begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful. > > > > > > since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked > her to > > > make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will > be > > > stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is > offering to > > > do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i > > > gave > > > her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on > a > > > varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks > requested. > > > the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many > hours > > > does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my > clinic? > > > since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, > and > > > see how it feels. > > > > > > if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions. > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > k > > > > > > On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay > > > > their > > > > mentors neither. > > > > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. > (Bay > > > > area has a higher cost of living) > > > > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this > > > moxa > > > > slavery) > > > > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some > kind > > > of > > > > insurance (I'm not sure) > > > > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the > trainees > > > > make up herbs and do office work. > > > > > > > > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which > are > > > > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get > college > > > > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer > acupuncturists. > > > > > > > > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal. > > > state > > > > boards (3000 hour requirement) > > > > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock > hours. > > > > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the > country- > > > > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years. > > > > > > > > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, > remembering > > > > that > > > > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. > (average > > > home > > > > worth $750,000 in SF) last year. > > > > > > > > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic > > > credits > > > > by > > > > working at your private clinic. > > > > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's > > > > office; > > > > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic > > > (including > > > > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the > rules > > > > are state to state or school by school). > > > > > > > > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official > > > > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard > > > > they're > > > > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did > not > > > > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and > > > > dedication. > > > > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic > from > > > > the > > > > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of > > > course. > > > > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay > back > > > in > > > > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses, > > > > mentorship > > > > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway. > > > > > > > > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in > calligraphy to > > > > my > > > > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain > > > principles. > > > > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my > palm. I > > > > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for > no > > > pay > > > > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me > > > they've > > > > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an > > > > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he > > > felt > > > > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to > him. > > > > That's how it is. > > > > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. > I > > > > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't > need > > > > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the > practice. > > > > > > > > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your > > > experience > > > > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If > not, > > > > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience > is > > > > worth all the money in the world. > > > > > > > > Just my 2 cents, K. > > > > > > > > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com> > > > <acukath%40gmail.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the > student > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift. > > > > > > > > > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students > for > > > > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the > > > rates > > > > > to > > > > > me. > > > > > > > > > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one > > > > > tutorial > > > > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. > any > > > > > thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > thx in adv, > > > > > > > > > > k > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Oriental Medicine > > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > > > > > > > > > Asheville Center For > > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh > > > eville.com> > > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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