externship/ student assistant shift fees

[Guest guest]

still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student of the

local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

 

i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the rates to

me.

 

i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one tutorial

would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

thoughts?

 

thx in adv,

 

k

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay their

mentors neither.

If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

area has a higher cost of living)

The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this moxa

slavery)

but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind of

insurance (I'm not sure)

I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

make up herbs and do office work.

 

At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

 

I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal. state

boards (3000 hour requirement)

I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

$46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

 

If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering that

SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average home

worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

 

I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic credits by

working at your private clinic.

I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's office;

the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic (including

paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

are state to state or school by school).

 

The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard they're

trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and dedication.

These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from the

bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of course.

However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back in

student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses, mentorship

and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

 

My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to my

tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain principles.

He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no pay

was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me they've

been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he felt

sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

That's how it is.

In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

 

So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your experience

and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

worth all the money in the world.

 

Just my 2 cents, K.

 

On 1/12/07, wrote:

>

> still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student of

> the

> local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

>

> i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the rates

> to

> me.

>

> i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> tutorial

> would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> thoughts?

>

> thx in adv,

>

> k

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

 

since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i gave

her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

see how it feels.

 

if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

 

thanks,

 

k

 

 

On 1/12/07, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> their

> mentors neither.

> If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> area has a higher cost of living)

> The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this moxa

> slavery)

> but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind of

> insurance (I'm not sure)

> I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> make up herbs and do office work.

>

> At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

>

> I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal. state

> boards (3000 hour requirement)

> I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

>

> If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> that

> SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average home

> worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

>

> I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic credits

> by

> working at your private clinic.

> I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> office;

> the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic (including

> paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> are state to state or school by school).

>

> The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> they're

> trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> dedication.

> These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> the

> bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of course.

> However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back in

> student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> mentorship

> and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

>

> My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> my

> tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain principles.

> He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no pay

> was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me they've

> been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he felt

> sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> That's how it is.

> In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

>

> So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your experience

> and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> worth all the money in the world.

>

> Just my 2 cents, K.

>

> On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student of

> > the

> > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> >

> > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the rates

> > to

> > me.

> >

> > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > tutorial

> > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > thoughts?

> >

> > thx in adv,

> >

> > k

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Kath,

 

You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to whether she

will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing also include

assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working observation " . If

you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you should also figure out for

yourself what this will amount to in hours per week, and somehow be compensated

for that time, in addition to the time she spends " observing " you. You might

also want to specify how many hours per week will work for you to set aside for

this activity. If I were in your shoes, I'd make it one specific day or

half-day per week, and have her work time be a different day. In terms of how

many hours of her time are worth one of yours, I think that's a question open to

interpretation.

 

You could have her start working for you several weeks before she begins

observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she does

begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours.

 

 

" " wrote:

thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

 

since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i gave

her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

see how it feels.

 

if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

 

thanks,

 

k

 

On 1/12/07, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> their

> mentors neither.

> If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> area has a higher cost of living)

> The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this moxa

> slavery)

> but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind of

> insurance (I'm not sure)

> I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> make up herbs and do office work.

>

> At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

>

> I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal. state

> boards (3000 hour requirement)

> I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

>

> If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> that

> SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average home

> worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

>

> I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic credits

> by

> working at your private clinic.

> I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> office;

> the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic (including

> paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> are state to state or school by school).

>

> The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> they're

> trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> dedication.

> These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> the

> bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of course.

> However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back in

> student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> mentorship

> and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

>

> My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> my

> tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain principles.

> He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no pay

> was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me they've

> been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he felt

> sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> That's how it is.

> In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

>

> So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your experience

> and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> worth all the money in the world.

>

> Just my 2 cents, K.

>

> On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student of

> > the

> > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> >

> > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the rates

> > to

> > me.

> >

> > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > tutorial

> > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > thoughts?

> >

> > thx in adv,

> >

> > k

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kath -

 

A few questions for you: how will you make your observance process HIPAA

compliant? And how will you decide which patients she has access to? Will

patients have any say in the matter, as to whether or not she observes their

treatments with you?

 

 

" " wrote:

thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

 

since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i gave

her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

see how it feels.

 

if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

 

thanks,

 

k

 

On 1/12/07, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> their

> mentors neither.

> If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> area has a higher cost of living)

> The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this moxa

> slavery)

> but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind of

> insurance (I'm not sure)

> I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> make up herbs and do office work.

>

> At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

>

> I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal. state

> boards (3000 hour requirement)

> I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

>

> If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> that

> SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average home

> worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

>

> I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic credits

> by

> working at your private clinic.

> I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> office;

> the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic (including

> paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> are state to state or school by school).

>

> The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> they're

> trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> dedication.

> These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> the

> bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of course.

> However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back in

> student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> mentorship

> and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

>

> My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> my

> tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain principles.

> He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no pay

> was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me they've

> been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he felt

> sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> That's how it is.

> In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

>

> So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your experience

> and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> worth all the money in the world.

>

> Just my 2 cents, K.

>

> On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student of

> > the

> > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> >

> > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the rates

> > to

> > me.

> >

> > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > tutorial

> > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > thoughts?

> >

> > thx in adv,

> >

> > k

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

thanks AB, these are helpful and useful ideas to consider. i'm thinking the

observation hours will be time spent following me in clinic. she might help

me make herb px, and perhaps do some moxa or cupping (if she's been taught

that yet in school, not sure) or massage. i wouldn't ask her to do office

work during clinic observation hrs, that should be clinic exp. time for her.

she should spend as much time in tx rm with me as possible. i've determined

that it seems that the colleges are charging students +/-$15/hr tuition for

clinic hours, and they pay an avg of $30 to clinic supervisors. since this

trade is her idea, i sent her that info and asked her to make a proposal to

me about what she would offer in trade of office work in rtn for an

externship observing in my clinic, as i'm not really sure what to ask.

we've discussed tasks/projects that i might ask her to do, ranging from

computer work to herb pharm. she's sent a proposal with a time estimate to

complete the projects, and a varying hrly trade rate, depending on the

complexity and knowledge required to complete the task.

 

one thing to consider is that the office work is really an additional prac

mngt internship, as she'ld be learning real life prac. mgnt skills they

would not even mention in school that she'll be able to use in her own

practice. so its not really grunt work on her part, it would all be a

valuable learning experience.

 

i welcome your thoughts/ideas on a trade rate for the externship.

 

k

 

 

On 1/12/07, < wrote:

>

> Hi Kath,

>

> You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to whether

> she will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing also

> include assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working

> observation " . If you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you should

> also figure out for yourself what this will amount to in hours per week, and

> somehow be compensated for that time, in addition to the time she spends

> " observing " you. You might also want to specify how many hours per week will

> work for you to set aside for this activity. If I were in your shoes, I'd

> make it one specific day or half-day per week, and have her work time be a

> different day. In terms of how many hours of her time are worth one of

> yours, I think that's a question open to interpretation.

>

> You could have her start working for you several weeks before she begins

> observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she does

> begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours.

>

>

>

> " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

>

> since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

> make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

> stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

> do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> gave

> her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

> varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

> the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

> does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

> since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

> see how it feels.

>

> if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

>

> thanks,

>

> k

>

> On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > their

> > mentors neither.

> > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> > area has a higher cost of living)

> > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> moxa

> > slavery)

> > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind

> of

> > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> > make up herbs and do office work.

> >

> > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

> >

> > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> state

> > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> >

> > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> > that

> > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average

> home

> > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> >

> > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> credits

> > by

> > working at your private clinic.

> > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > office;

> > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> (including

> > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> > are state to state or school by school).

> >

> > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > they're

> > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > dedication.

> > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> > the

> > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> course.

> > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back

> in

> > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > mentorship

> > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> >

> > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> > my

> > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> principles.

> > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no

> pay

> > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> they've

> > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> felt

> > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> > That's how it is.

> > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

> >

> > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> experience

> > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> > worth all the money in the world.

> >

> > Just my 2 cents, K.

> >

> > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student

> of

> > > the

> > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > >

> > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> rates

> > > to

> > > me.

> > >

> > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > tutorial

> > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > > thoughts?

> > >

> > > thx in adv,

> > >

> > > k

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > > Oriental Medicine

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > >

> > > Asheville Center For

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> eville.com>

> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Kath,

another story..

in the year 2000, I did a year of apprenticeship with a successful

acupuncture/herbalist on the Big Island of Hawaii. In the beginning, he

paid me $10/hr to come in and clean his bathroom, vacuum his carpets, change

sheets and take packages to the copier and postoffice etc. After a month, I

was upgraded to weighing out raw herbs and making special salves. About six

months later, he allowed me to observe a few tongues and then check a few

pulses. By the end of the year, I was doing moxa stick application . I was

still getting paid $10/hr. My point is that unless the student needs to

graduate asap, there's plenty of time to hang around.

 

Alot of patients are uncomfortable with a student or anyone else being in

the room during a consultation/intake. Others don't care.

My teacher would call me in after asking the patient if they felt

comfortable. Usually, he would know without even asking.

The secret to his success, I believe, was his bed-side manner.

 

Alot of patients admired this acupuncture/herbalist for having a student

doing the stuff that students should be doing. They thought it was really

funny watching a kid run around in the rain and sweeping the front door

early in the morning.

They admired this healer for being a teacher, as well as their

acupuncturist.

 

I think at that time I was worth the $10/hr, but that's not really what it

was about.

There's something about touching herbs and inhaling moxa that brings back

the best kind of memories.

And those first years of being one-on-one with a teacher in their practice,

those are scenes in a life that can't be re-lived.

Is this what this student is asking for?

 

On 1/12/07, wrote:

>

> thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

>

> since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

> make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

> stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

> do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> gave

> her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

> varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

> the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

> does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

> since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

> see how it feels.

>

> if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

>

> thanks,

>

> k

>

>

> On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > their

> > mentors neither.

> > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> > area has a higher cost of living)

> > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> moxa

> > slavery)

> > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind

> of

> > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> > make up herbs and do office work.

> >

> > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

> >

> > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> state

> > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> >

> > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> > that

> > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average

> home

> > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> >

> > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> credits

> > by

> > working at your private clinic.

> > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > office;

> > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> (including

> > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> > are state to state or school by school).

> >

> > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > they're

> > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > dedication.

> > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> > the

> > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> course.

> > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back

> in

> > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > mentorship

> > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> >

> > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> > my

> > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> principles.

> > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no

> pay

> > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> they've

> > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> felt

> > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> > That's how it is.

> > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

> >

> > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> experience

> > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> > worth all the money in the world.

> >

> > Just my 2 cents, K.

> >

> > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student

> of

> > > the

> > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > >

> > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> rates

> > > to

> > > me.

> > >

> > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > tutorial

> > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > > thoughts?

> > >

> > > thx in adv,

> > >

> > > k

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > > Oriental Medicine

> > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > >

> > > Asheville Center For

> > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> eville.com>

> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

john,

 

thanks for sharing your rich and vivid experience with your beloved teacher.

 

 

There's something about touching herbs and inhaling moxa that brings back

the best kind of memories.

And those first years of being one-on-one with a teacher in their practice,

those are scenes in a life that can't be re-lived.

Is this what this student is asking for?

 

 

at this point, she hasn't really indicated what she is looking for, other

than to fulfill her clinic observation shift off campus, so as to avoid a

2hr commute to her school in order to complete the clinic rotation there.

(the school offers an unusual acu only program, where students attend only

one week per month. . . yes, the school did manage to gain accreditation

with this schedule).

 

she told me she sought me out after googling my website, which impressed

her. she approached me with her own idea of offering office/computer work

(she has a strong computer background, as has shown herself to be well

organized) in trade for the opportunity to do her clinic observation

rotation as an externship in my clinic. she first sent an email presenting

the idea in mid-dec, which i dismissed. a few weeks later she called while i

was with a patient. i wasn't really interested, so i told her i couldn't

talk, and to call back after the first of the year. later, i got to

thinking about it, and re-read her orginal email. i realized i do have a

list of put-off 'to-do's', and it would free me up to turn them over to

someone. she called again last week and left a detailed and warm phone

message offering up her computer services, " grunt work " or whatever i might

need in return for the observation opportunity (not an easy message to

leave, she was both professional and friendly in tone). so i emailed her,

requesting a resume (reflecting the computer background as a systems

administrator, some Chinese/ tabetan lang. skills, tai qi knowledge and

asian travel) and setup an interview on thurs.

 

i outlined some projects i might ask her to do. she came up with an hrly

rate for the tasks, varies depending on task and complexity. so at this

point is seems we need to figure out what is a fair trade for the

externship. i'm not sure how to put a $ value on the externship, or what to

suggest in terms of trade work offered in return for the observation hrs at

my clinic. i am mindful that even the office/computer/herb pharm hours

would provide valuable prac. mngt skills she will not be introduced to in

acu college, prior to graduation. so even the trade hrs in office work are

in themselves an internship.

 

i would set this up with integrity & respect, keeping the clinic observation

hrs separate from office tasks. i would provide her with a rich,

mentoring opportunity, and would not turn her into a moxa slave. that would

be in return for the offering of office work/ prac. mngt interning as a

trade payment for the mentoring opportunity, she suggests.

 

k

 

 

 

 

On 1/12/07, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> Kath,

> another story..

> in the year 2000, I did a year of apprenticeship with a successful

> acupuncture/herbalist on the Big Island of Hawaii. In the beginning, he

> paid me $10/hr to come in and clean his bathroom, vacuum his carpets,

> change

> sheets and take packages to the copier and postoffice etc. After a month,

> I

> was upgraded to weighing out raw herbs and making special salves. About

> six

> months later, he allowed me to observe a few tongues and then check a few

> pulses. By the end of the year, I was doing moxa stick application . I was

> still getting paid $10/hr. My point is that unless the student needs to

> graduate asap, there's plenty of time to hang around.

>

> Alot of patients are uncomfortable with a student or anyone else being in

> the room during a consultation/intake. Others don't care.

> My teacher would call me in after asking the patient if they felt

> comfortable. Usually, he would know without even asking.

> The secret to his success, I believe, was his bed-side manner.

>

> Alot of patients admired this acupuncture/herbalist for having a student

> doing the stuff that students should be doing. They thought it was really

> funny watching a kid run around in the rain and sweeping the front door

> early in the morning.

> They admired this healer for being a teacher, as well as their

> acupuncturist.

>

> I think at that time I was worth the $10/hr, but that's not really what it

> was about.

> There's something about touching herbs and inhaling moxa that brings back

> the best kind of memories.

> And those first years of being one-on-one with a teacher in their

> practice,

> those are scenes in a life that can't be re-lived.

> Is this what this student is asking for?

>

> On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

> >

> > since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her

> to

> > make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

> > stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering

> to

> > do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> > gave

> > her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

> > varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

> > the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many

> hours

> > does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

> > since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers,

> and

> > see how it feels.

> >

> > if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

> >

> > thanks,

> >

> > k

> >

> >

> > On 1/12/07, <johnkokko

<johnkokko%40gmail.com><johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > > their

> > > mentors neither.

> > > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin.

> (Bay

> > > area has a higher cost of living)

> > > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> > moxa

> > > slavery)

> > > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind

> > of

> > > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the

> trainees

> > > make up herbs and do office work.

> > >

> > > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which

> are

> > > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> > > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

> > >

> > > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> > state

> > > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock

> hours.

> > > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> > > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> > >

> > > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by,

> remembering

> > > that

> > > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average

> > home

> > > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> > >

> > > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> > credits

> > > by

> > > working at your private clinic.

> > > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > > office;

> > > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> > (including

> > > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the

> rules

> > > are state to state or school by school).

> > >

> > > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > > they're

> > > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did

> not

> > > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > > dedication.

> > > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic

> from

> > > the

> > > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> > course.

> > > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back

> > in

> > > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > > mentorship

> > > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> > >

> > > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy

> to

> > > my

> > > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> > principles.

> > > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm.

> I

> > > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no

> > pay

> > > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> > they've

> > > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> > felt

> > > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to

> him.

> > > That's how it is.

> > > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> > > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> > > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the

> practice.

> > >

> > > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> > experience

> > > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If

> not,

> > > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> > > worth all the money in the world.

> > >

> > > Just my 2 cents, K.

> > >

> > > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> <acukath%40gmail.com>

> > <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the

> student

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > > >

> > > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students

> for

> > > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> > rates

> > > > to

> > > > me.

> > > >

> > > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > > tutorial

> > > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic.

> any

> > > > thoughts?

> > > >

> > > > thx in adv,

> > > >

> > > > k

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > >

> > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> > eville.com>

> > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I administer a college program, so I want to let you know from my experience

that

accreditaiton standards require that every clinical site where a student gains

experience

has to meet certain criteria, and although private practice sites can be used,

there would

be formal agreement between the supervisor and the school itself.

 

So in your situaiton, it may be that the school has not encountered or fully

developed the

criteria, or the student is not giving you the straight story, or doesn't have

enough

information.

 

Before I would agree to anything, I would want documentation from the school

that they

will indeed accept this observation, and what their criteria for your

supervision would be.

Imagine going through all this to find out that the student can't use those

hours towards

their program. There should also be clinical learning objectives that the

student would be

required to meet. I would be surprised if an educational experience under

current

accreditation standards can just be negotiated between a private practitioner

and the

student.

 

Ethically, any payment for the situation should be directly from the school to

you, and

from the student to the school if the hours are really meant to fulfill program

requirements. You should have to evaluate the student, and therefore receiving

any

compensation directly from the student would be a conflict of interest.

 

Lots of students seek out addtional experience, and they are lucky to get it.

These

situations are privately arranged but they don't confer college credit.

 

It's great that you are seeking all this feedback. Wish you the best.

 

Valerie Hobbs, Dipl. OM

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> thanks AB, these are helpful and useful ideas to consider. i'm thinking the

> observation hours will be time spent following me in clinic. she might help

> me make herb px, and perhaps do some moxa or cupping (if she's been taught

> that yet in school, not sure) or massage. i wouldn't ask her to do office

> work during clinic observation hrs, that should be clinic exp. time for her.

> she should spend as much time in tx rm with me as possible. i've determined

> that it seems that the colleges are charging students +/-$15/hr tuition for

> clinic hours, and they pay an avg of $30 to clinic supervisors. since this

> trade is her idea, i sent her that info and asked her to make a proposal to

> me about what she would offer in trade of office work in rtn for an

> externship observing in my clinic, as i'm not really sure what to ask.

> we've discussed tasks/projects that i might ask her to do, ranging from

> computer work to herb pharm. she's sent a proposal with a time estimate to

> complete the projects, and a varying hrly trade rate, depending on the

> complexity and knowledge required to complete the task.

>

> one thing to consider is that the office work is really an additional prac

> mngt internship, as she'ld be learning real life prac. mgnt skills they

> would not even mention in school that she'll be able to use in her own

> practice. so its not really grunt work on her part, it would all be a

> valuable learning experience.

>

> i welcome your thoughts/ideas on a trade rate for the externship.

>

> k

>

>

> On 1/12/07, < wrote:

> >

> > Hi Kath,

> >

> > You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to whether

> > she will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing also

> > include assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working

> > observation " . If you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you should

> > also figure out for yourself what this will amount to in hours per week, and

> > somehow be compensated for that time, in addition to the time she spends

> > " observing " you. You might also want to specify how many hours per week will

> > work for you to set aside for this activity. If I were in your shoes, I'd

> > make it one specific day or half-day per week, and have her work time be a

> > different day. In terms of how many hours of her time are worth one of

> > yours, I think that's a question open to interpretation.

> >

> > You could have her start working for you several weeks before she begins

> > observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she does

> > begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours.

> >

> >

> >

> > " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> > thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

> >

> > since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked her to

> > make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will be

> > stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is offering to

> > do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> > gave

> > her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on a

> > varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks requested.

> > the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many hours

> > does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my clinic?

> > since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers, and

> > see how it feels.

> >

> > if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

> >

> > thanks,

> >

> > k

> >

> > On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > > their

> > > mentors neither.

> > > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin. (Bay

> > > area has a higher cost of living)

> > > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> > moxa

> > > slavery)

> > > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some kind

> > of

> > > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the trainees

> > > make up herbs and do office work.

> > >

> > > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which are

> > > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get college

> > > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer acupuncturists.

> > >

> > > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> > state

> > > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock hours.

> > > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the country-

> > > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> > >

> > > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by, remembering

> > > that

> > > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S. (average

> > home

> > > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> > >

> > > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> > credits

> > > by

> > > working at your private clinic.

> > > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > > office;

> > > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> > (including

> > > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the rules

> > > are state to state or school by school).

> > >

> > > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > > they're

> > > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did not

> > > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > > dedication.

> > > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic from

> > > the

> > > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> > course.

> > > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay back

> > in

> > > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > > mentorship

> > > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> > >

> > > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in calligraphy to

> > > my

> > > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> > principles.

> > > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my palm. I

> > > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for no

> > pay

> > > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> > they've

> > > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> > felt

> > > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to him.

> > > That's how it is.

> > > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour. I

> > > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't need

> > > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the practice.

> > >

> > > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> > experience

> > > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If not,

> > > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience is

> > > worth all the money in the world.

> > >

> > > Just my 2 cents, K.

> > >

> > > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> > <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the student

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > > >

> > > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students for

> > > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> > rates

> > > > to

> > > > me.

> > > >

> > > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > > tutorial

> > > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic. any

> > > > thoughts?

> > > >

> > > > thx in adv,

> > > >

> > > > k

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > >

> > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > >

> > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> > eville.com>

> > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Valerie,

 

thanks for your concern and your insights. she showed me a letter from the

school stating requirements of initialing a record of hours and completing a

student eval. i figure making sure she is indeed eligible for credit for

this is her responsibility. i'll make sure she does confirm it.

 

k

 

 

On 1/13/07, Valerie Hobbs <valeriehobbs wrote:

>

> I administer a college program, so I want to let you know from my

> experience that

> accreditaiton standards require that every clinical site where a student

> gains experience

> has to meet certain criteria, and although private practice sites can be

> used, there would

> be formal agreement between the supervisor and the school itself.

>

> So in your situaiton, it may be that the school has not encountered or

> fully developed the

> criteria, or the student is not giving you the straight story, or doesn't

> have enough

> information.

>

> Before I would agree to anything, I would want documentation from the

> school that they

> will indeed accept this observation, and what their criteria for your

> supervision would be.

> Imagine going through all this to find out that the student can't use

> those hours towards

> their program. There should also be clinical learning objectives that the

> student would be

> required to meet. I would be surprised if an educational experience under

> current

> accreditation standards can just be negotiated between a private

> practitioner and the

> student.

>

> Ethically, any payment for the situation should be directly from the

> school to you, and

> from the student to the school if the hours are really meant to fulfill

> program

> requirements. You should have to evaluate the student, and therefore

> receiving any

> compensation directly from the student would be a conflict of interest.

>

> Lots of students seek out addtional experience, and they are lucky to get

> it. These

> situations are privately arranged but they don't confer college credit.

>

> It's great that you are seeking all this feedback. Wish you the best.

>

> Valerie Hobbs, Dipl. OM

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> wrote:

> >

> > thanks AB, these are helpful and useful ideas to consider. i'm thinking

> the

> > observation hours will be time spent following me in clinic. she might

> help

> > me make herb px, and perhaps do some moxa or cupping (if she's been

> taught

> > that yet in school, not sure) or massage. i wouldn't ask her to do

> office

> > work during clinic observation hrs, that should be clinic exp. time for

> her.

> > she should spend as much time in tx rm with me as possible. i've

> determined

> > that it seems that the colleges are charging students +/-$15/hr tuition

> for

> > clinic hours, and they pay an avg of $30 to clinic supervisors. since

> this

> > trade is her idea, i sent her that info and asked her to make a proposal

> to

> > me about what she would offer in trade of office work in rtn for an

> > externship observing in my clinic, as i'm not really sure what to ask.

> > we've discussed tasks/projects that i might ask her to do, ranging from

> > computer work to herb pharm. she's sent a proposal with a time estimate

> to

> > complete the projects, and a varying hrly trade rate, depending on the

> > complexity and knowledge required to complete the task.

> >

> > one thing to consider is that the office work is really an additional

> prac

> > mngt internship, as she'ld be learning real life prac. mgnt skills they

> > would not even mention in school that she'll be able to use in her own

> > practice. so its not really grunt work on her part, it would all be a

> > valuable learning experience.

> >

> > i welcome your thoughts/ideas on a trade rate for the externship.

> >

> > k

> >

> >

> > On 1/12/07, < wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Kath,

> > >

> > > You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to

> whether

> > > she will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing

> also

> > > include assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working

> > > observation " . If you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you

> should

> > > also figure out for yourself what this will amount to in hours per

> week, and

> > > somehow be compensated for that time, in addition to the time she

> spends

> > > " observing " you. You might also want to specify how many hours per

> week will

> > > work for you to set aside for this activity. If I were in your shoes,

> I'd

> > > make it one specific day or half-day per week, and have her work time

> be a

> > > different day. In terms of how many hours of her time are worth one of

> > > yours, I think that's a question open to interpretation.

> > >

> > > You could have her start working for you several weeks before she

> begins

> > > observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she

> does

> > > begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> > > thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

> > >

> > > since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked

> her to

> > > make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will

> be

> > > stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is

> offering to

> > > do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> > > gave

> > > her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on

> a

> > > varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks

> requested.

> > > the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many

> hours

> > > does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my

> clinic?

> > > since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers,

> and

> > > see how it feels.

> > >

> > > if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

> > >

> > > thanks,

> > >

> > > k

> > >

> > > On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > > > their

> > > > mentors neither.

> > > > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin.

> (Bay

> > > > area has a higher cost of living)

> > > > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> > > moxa

> > > > slavery)

> > > > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some

> kind

> > > of

> > > > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > > > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the

> trainees

> > > > make up herbs and do office work.

> > > >

> > > > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which

> are

> > > > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get

> college

> > > > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer

> acupuncturists.

> > > >

> > > > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> > > state

> > > > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > > > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock

> hours.

> > > > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the

> country-

> > > > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> > > >

> > > > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by,

> remembering

> > > > that

> > > > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S.

> (average

> > > home

> > > > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> > > >

> > > > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> > > credits

> > > > by

> > > > working at your private clinic.

> > > > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > > > office;

> > > > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> > > (including

> > > > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the

> rules

> > > > are state to state or school by school).

> > > >

> > > > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > > > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > > > they're

> > > > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did

> not

> > > > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > > > dedication.

> > > > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic

> from

> > > > the

> > > > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> > > course.

> > > > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay

> back

> > > in

> > > > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > > > mentorship

> > > > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> > > >

> > > > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in

> calligraphy to

> > > > my

> > > > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> > > principles.

> > > > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my

> palm. I

> > > > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for

> no

> > > pay

> > > > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> > > they've

> > > > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > > > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> > > felt

> > > > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to

> him.

> > > > That's how it is.

> > > > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour.

> I

> > > > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't

> need

> > > > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the

> practice.

> > > >

> > > > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> > > experience

> > > > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If

> not,

> > > > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience

> is

> > > > worth all the money in the world.

> > > >

> > > > Just my 2 cents, K.

> > > >

> > > > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> > > <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the

> student

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > > > >

> > > > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students

> for

> > > > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> > > rates

> > > > > to

> > > > > me.

> > > > >

> > > > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > > > tutorial

> > > > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic.

> any

> > > > > thoughts?

> > > > >

> > > > > thx in adv,

> > > > >

> > > > > k

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > > >

> > > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> > > eville.com>

> > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

In California State, the externship site has to be evaluated and approved by the

board in addition to the well defined processes between the school and the

externship site.

It did take me a lot of time before it's formally recognized and agreed upon

among the school, the board, and the externship site. The fee schedule is

decided by the school and paid to the school. It is up to the school and the

externship site to decide how it's split between the two. Other than personal

gifts, like I did for the supervisor in the school, I never had to discuss fee

issues with the externship supervisor.

 

Mike L.

 

" " wrote:

Valerie,

 

thanks for your concern and your insights. she showed me a letter from the

school stating requirements of initialing a record of hours and completing a

student eval. i figure making sure she is indeed eligible for credit for

this is her responsibility. i'll make sure she does confirm it.

 

k

 

On 1/13/07, Valerie Hobbs <valeriehobbs wrote:

>

> I administer a college program, so I want to let you know from my

> experience that

> accreditaiton standards require that every clinical site where a student

> gains experience

> has to meet certain criteria, and although private practice sites can be

> used, there would

> be formal agreement between the supervisor and the school itself.

>

> So in your situaiton, it may be that the school has not encountered or

> fully developed the

> criteria, or the student is not giving you the straight story, or doesn't

> have enough

> information.

>

> Before I would agree to anything, I would want documentation from the

> school that they

> will indeed accept this observation, and what their criteria for your

> supervision would be.

> Imagine going through all this to find out that the student can't use

> those hours towards

> their program. There should also be clinical learning objectives that the

> student would be

> required to meet. I would be surprised if an educational experience under

> current

> accreditation standards can just be negotiated between a private

> practitioner and the

> student.

>

> Ethically, any payment for the situation should be directly from the

> school to you, and

> from the student to the school if the hours are really meant to fulfill

> program

> requirements. You should have to evaluate the student, and therefore

> receiving any

> compensation directly from the student would be a conflict of interest.

>

> Lots of students seek out addtional experience, and they are lucky to get

> it. These

> situations are privately arranged but they don't confer college credit.

>

> It's great that you are seeking all this feedback. Wish you the best.

>

> Valerie Hobbs, Dipl. OM

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " "

> wrote:

> >

> > thanks AB, these are helpful and useful ideas to consider. i'm thinking

> the

> > observation hours will be time spent following me in clinic. she might

> help

> > me make herb px, and perhaps do some moxa or cupping (if she's been

> taught

> > that yet in school, not sure) or massage. i wouldn't ask her to do

> office

> > work during clinic observation hrs, that should be clinic exp. time for

> her.

> > she should spend as much time in tx rm with me as possible. i've

> determined

> > that it seems that the colleges are charging students +/-$15/hr tuition

> for

> > clinic hours, and they pay an avg of $30 to clinic supervisors. since

> this

> > trade is her idea, i sent her that info and asked her to make a proposal

> to

> > me about what she would offer in trade of office work in rtn for an

> > externship observing in my clinic, as i'm not really sure what to ask.

> > we've discussed tasks/projects that i might ask her to do, ranging from

> > computer work to herb pharm. she's sent a proposal with a time estimate

> to

> > complete the projects, and a varying hrly trade rate, depending on the

> > complexity and knowledge required to complete the task.

> >

> > one thing to consider is that the office work is really an additional

> prac

> > mngt internship, as she'ld be learning real life prac. mgnt skills they

> > would not even mention in school that she'll be able to use in her own

> > practice. so its not really grunt work on her part, it would all be a

> > valuable learning experience.

> >

> > i welcome your thoughts/ideas on a trade rate for the externship.

> >

> > k

> >

> >

> > On 1/12/07, < wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Kath,

> > >

> > > You might want to make a distinction for your own clarity, as to

> whether

> > > she will also be working while she is " observing " . Will her observing

> also

> > > include assisting? If so, I call that " working " , or perhaps, " working

> > > observation " . If you truly feel she will slow you down, I think you

> should

> > > also figure out for yourself what this will amount to in hours per

> week, and

> > > somehow be compensated for that time, in addition to the time she

> spends

> > > " observing " you. You might also want to specify how many hours per

> week will

> > > work for you to set aside for this activity. If I were in your shoes,

> I'd

> > > make it one specific day or half-day per week, and have her work time

> be a

> > > different day. In terms of how many hours of her time are worth one of

> > > yours, I think that's a question open to interpretation.

> > >

> > > You could have her start working for you several weeks before she

> begins

> > > observing. This might speed up the " familiarization " process once she

> does

> > > begin observing, and make better use of both her time and yours.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > " " <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> > > thanks, john for your insights. that is helpful.

> > >

> > > since this whole thing was her idea, and she approached me, i asked

> her to

> > > make me an offer. she wants to do 60hr of clinic observation. it will

> be

> > > stressful and slow me down having her there. in return, she is

> offering to

> > > do what ever office/ help i would require (including computer work). i

> > > gave

> > > her a list of tasks/projects. she put a $ value on the work, based on

> a

> > > varing hourly rate of the different complexities of the tasks

> requested.

> > > the question is what is the trade value of the externship? how many

> hours

> > > does she work in rtn for the opportunity to observe 60hrs at my

> clinic?

> > > since i'm not sure what to suggest, i'm going to see what she offers,

> and

> > > see how it feels.

> > >

> > > if you have ideas, i welcome any and all suggestions.

> > >

> > > thanks,

> > >

> > > k

> > >

> > > On 1/12/07, <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > In the SF bay area, apprentices usually don't get paid and don't pay

> > > > their

> > > > mentors neither.

> > > > If they do get paid, it is usually $10 in SF and $15/ hr in Marin.

> (Bay

> > > > area has a higher cost of living)

> > > > The duties usually include office work, moxa, cleanup, (we call this

> > > moxa

> > > > slavery)

> > > > but taking out needles (touching needles) etc. might require some

> kind

> > > of

> > > > insurance (I'm not sure)

> > > > I know one clinic where the interns do consultations, while the

> trainees

> > > > make up herbs and do office work.

> > > >

> > > > At the American College of TCM there are official extern-sites which

> are

> > > > community-setting clinics, where trainees and interns can get

> college

> > > > credit. Many of those clinics are staffed by volunteer

> acupuncturists.

> > > >

> > > > I'm in my last semester at this college, before I can take the Cal.

> > > state

> > > > boards (3000 hour requirement)

> > > > I have to pay $15/ hour at the clinic or $740 for 48 clinic clock

> hours.

> > > > ACTCM, I believe, also has the most expensive tuition in the

> country-

> > > > $46, 400 for the tuition alone -in 4 years.

> > > >

> > > > If you think that's fair, then that may be a rate to go by,

> remembering

> > > > that

> > > > SF is the most expensive major city to live in - in the U.S.

> (average

> > > home

> > > > worth $750,000 in SF) last year.

> > > >

> > > > I'm surprised that your prospective student can get school clinic

> > > credits

> > > > by

> > > > working at your private clinic.

> > > > I remember when I tried to study at a well respected acupuncturist's

> > > > office;

> > > > the college and accreditation team had to approve of the clinic

> > > (including

> > > > paper-work etc). It didn't happen. (this was in Hawaii) (maybe the

> rules

> > > > are state to state or school by school).

> > > >

> > > > The other scenario is the one where a student does an official

> > > > apprenticeship (hours counted) with an acupuncturist (which I heard

> > > > they're

> > > > trying to phase out). I have met two students who did this. They did

> not

> > > > get paid and did not pay anything except for their hard work and

> > > > dedication.

> > > > These people learned everything it takes to run a successful clinic

> from

> > > > the

> > > > bottom up, but they were also lacking in certain perspectives, of

> > > course.

> > > > However, they saved a lot of money, which they didn't have to pay

> back

> > > in

> > > > student loans and most of the goodies are learned at CEU courses,

> > > > mentorship

> > > > and self-learning (meditation/textual) anyway.

> > > >

> > > > My own story is that I had to write a written contract in

> calligraphy to

> > > > my

> > > > tuina shifu, contracting my honor that I would uphold certain

> > > principles.

> > > > He put me through the ringer, until he saw water blisters on my

> palm. I

> > > > guess this meant that I was worthy. Working up to 12 hours/ day for

> no

> > > pay

> > > > was the price to learn his skills. This is what my teacher told me

> > > they've

> > > > been doing for millenia. Since I wasn't born into an

> > > > acupuncturist/herbalist family, I had to work twice as hard. When he

> > > felt

> > > > sorry for me, he would buy me dinner and I knew that meant alot to

> him.

> > > > That's how it is.

> > > > In the beginning, he said he'd only take me on if I paid $50/ hour.

> I

> > > > agreed. Of course, he never made me pay a dime. My teacher didn't

> need

> > > > money, he needed someone who could be dedicated to him and the

> practice.

> > > >

> > > > So you could also do a trade instead of collecting money. Your

> > > experience

> > > > and knowledge for the observor's enthusiasm and physical labor. If

> not,

> > > > then I think you would be selling yourself cheaply. Your experience

> is

> > > > worth all the money in the world.

> > > >

> > > > Just my 2 cents, K.

> > > >

> > > > On 1/12/07, <acukath<acukath%40gmail.com>

> > > <acukath%40gmail.com>>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > still working on a fee for an externship at my clinic for the

> student

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > local acu college needing an offsite clinic observation shift.

> > > > >

> > > > > i'm wondering what the various acu colleges are charging students

> for

> > > > > externships/ clinic assistant shifts. if known, please forward the

> > > rates

> > > > > to

> > > > > me.

> > > > >

> > > > > i'm thinking an externship at a private acu clinic with one-on-one

> > > > > tutorial

> > > > > would have a higher value than a group shift at a student clinic.

> any

> > > > > thoughts?

> > > > >

> > > > > thx in adv,

> > > > >

> > > > > k

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Oriental Medicine

> > > > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> > > > >

> > > > > Asheville Center For

> > > > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > > > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> > > > > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > > <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsh

> > > eville.com>

> > > > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > > > >

> > > > >