Water shooting the Pure Yang (John Kokko)

January 1, 2007

Very interesting material (the Van Nghi Institute site). Strikes me as

a genuine classical lineage of Chinese medicine, in depth and quality

similar to that which Jeffery Yuen teaches. For instance the depiction

of qi energetics in terms of and ying, wei, jing, and jingshen

energetics, and the idea of sanjiao.

1) Jeffery structures his channel theory along the lines of three

energetic layers – external/wei, internal/ying, and

constitutional/jing. And jingshen is a fascinating term which appears

throughout the Han classics, but isn't discussed much nowadays. In

modern Chinese medicine it is simply reduced to " the nervous system " .

2) Similarly the image of the sanjiao as a distribution mechanism in

the heart/fire -- kidney/water axis. Jeffery discusses this often. He

has described human development (lifetime trajectory) as expression of

the jing (kidney possibilities) through the sanjiao as a sort of tree,

rooted in the low abdomen (kidneys/dantien) and sending its trunk up

through the spine, branching off (through the shu points) to feed the

source yinyang into the organs, bringing them to life, so to speak.

(Fran's description of the pathway of Pure Yang (Sat, 30 Dec 2006

20:34:13 -0800 (PST) looks like the same mechanism.) We can recognize

this in TCM expressions such as " kidney grasping the qi through the

lungs " , " kidney yang rescuing the spleen " , etc., and, of course,

" kidney-heart communication " .

3) The remarks throughout the Van Nghi material about the relationship

of such classical interpretations and orthodox TCM are noteworthy, as

exemplifying the prototypical Chinese attitude of avoiding dialectical

conflict. That is, in-depth classical interpretations bring to life

the abstracted maxims that are codified as TCM. To use the historical

backdrop of Kim Taylor's account of the political/social history of

TCM, a lot of it was formulated by bureaucrats and Western-trained

Chinese doctors, without input from masters of classical lineages.

These latter were largely eliminated during the cultural revolution –

either fleeing the country, being killed, or going into the closet, so

to speak. The authors of TCM, given their background, and a mandated

pseudo-scientific bias, had no idea what levels of meaning were buried

in the traditional material.

Example, again, the TCM information on sanjiao. From the textbooks in

school: " name with no form " (superstition?); " the minister of

waterworks " ; the three anatomical divisions of the trunk; energetics

of damp-heat conditions. Not much to go on. And later when I was

teaching TCM, I systematically surveyed the textbooks again (after the

spurt of new TCM texts of the 1990's, Maciocio, etc.), and couldn't

come up with anything more that really could be said to breath life

into the notion of sanjiao. From Jeffery's descriptions, and my hit

that Van Nghi's interpretation is along the same lines, the sanjiao

takes on whole new dimensions of importance, both theoretically and

clinically.

Van Nghi's ideas could be an interesting thread of some sort in TCMpedia.

January 1, 2007

Chris,

Intellectually and Intuitively, I also find that both J. Yuen and Nguyen

Van Nghi's interpretations of the classical knowledge resonate with the core

of this medicine. More about the sanjiao energetics, as well as other

distinct lines of thought can be found at

http://www.jungtao.edu/productions/multimedia.html

The Nguyen Van Nghi group is also in the process of translating several

classics, such as the Mai Jing, Shang han lun and Zhen Jiu Da Cheng, as well

as already having two Volumes of the English version of the Ling Shu

available currently (three volumes- Books 1-9 = 81 chapters)

http://www.jungtao.edu/productions/print.html

Going back to what Z'ev wrote about in the failure of certain kinds of

translations, I see a discrepancy between what Henry Lu translates and what

the Nguyen Van Nghi group writes in the LingShu Chapter 9

Paragraphs 1-6.

This concerns pulse reading in relation to the Ren Ying pulse and the Qi Kuo

pulse.

Henry Lu interprets the Ren Ying pulse to be the pulse at the neck (ST 9-

carotid artery),

while the Qi Kuo is seen as the mouth of Qi at the wrist.

NVN (Nguyen Van Nghi) interprets Ren Ying to be the left wrist pulse, with

the Qi Kuo pulse located on the right wrist.

NVN cautions not to interpret the RenYing pulse to be the same as the pulse

on the neck - ST 9 (Ren Ying).

I lean towards NVN's interpretation on this issue, but am curious how Henry

Lu interpreted Ren Ying as the carotid artery pulse, as this is what I was

trained in TCM school to believe also.

These are two fundamentally different interpretations of these passages,

which can mean all the world in difference in practice.

Has anyone used this fascinating pulse system in practice? Thanks, K.

On 12/31/06, chris_macie < wrote:

>

> Very interesting material (the Van Nghi Institute site). Strikes me as

> a genuine classical lineage of Chinese medicine, in depth and quality

> similar to that which Jeffery Yuen teaches. For instance the depiction

> of qi energetics in terms of and ying, wei, jing, and jingshen

> energetics, and the idea of sanjiao.

>

> 1) Jeffery structures his channel theory along the lines of three

> energetic layers – external/wei, internal/ying, and

> constitutional/jing. And jingshen is a fascinating term which appears

> throughout the Han classics, but isn't discussed much nowadays. In

> modern Chinese medicine it is simply reduced to " the nervous system " .

>

> 2) Similarly the image of the sanjiao as a distribution mechanism in

> the heart/fire -- kidney/water axis. Jeffery discusses this often. He

> has described human development (lifetime trajectory) as expression of

> the jing (kidney possibilities) through the sanjiao as a sort of tree,

> rooted in the low abdomen (kidneys/dantien) and sending its trunk up

> through the spine, branching off (through the shu points) to feed the

> source yinyang into the organs, bringing them to life, so to speak.

> (Fran's description of the pathway of Pure Yang (Sat, 30 Dec 2006

> 20:34:13 -0800 (PST) looks like the same mechanism.) We can recognize

> this in TCM expressions such as " kidney grasping the qi through the

> lungs " , " kidney yang rescuing the spleen " , etc., and, of course,

> " kidney-heart communication " .

>

> 3) The remarks throughout the Van Nghi material about the relationship

> of such classical interpretations and orthodox TCM are noteworthy, as

> exemplifying the prototypical Chinese attitude of avoiding dialectical

> conflict. That is, in-depth classical interpretations bring to life

> the abstracted maxims that are codified as TCM. To use the historical

> backdrop of Kim Taylor's account of the political/social history of

> TCM, a lot of it was formulated by bureaucrats and Western-trained

> Chinese doctors, without input from masters of classical lineages.

> These latter were largely eliminated during the cultural revolution –

> either fleeing the country, being killed, or going into the closet, so

> to speak. The authors of TCM, given their background, and a mandated

> pseudo-scientific bias, had no idea what levels of meaning were buried

> in the traditional material.

>

> Example, again, the TCM information on sanjiao. From the textbooks in

> school: " name with no form " (superstition?); " the minister of

> waterworks " ; the three anatomical divisions of the trunk; energetics

> of damp-heat conditions. Not much to go on. And later when I was

> teaching TCM, I systematically surveyed the textbooks again (after the

> spurt of new TCM texts of the 1990's, Maciocio, etc.), and couldn't

> come up with anything more that really could be said to breath life

> into the notion of sanjiao. From Jeffery's descriptions, and my hit

> that Van Nghi's interpretation is along the same lines, the sanjiao

> takes on whole new dimensions of importance, both theoretically and

> clinically.

>

> Van Nghi's ideas could be an interesting thread of some sort in TCMpedia.

>

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

Jiddu Krishnamurti

January 1, 2007

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on the phrase. I am combing materials including

suggested material, but also trying to contact the person who used that phrase,

to nail down a little better, what he meant. Any gobbledy-gook is mine.

I know there has been detailed discussions on san jiao, shu xie, shen/spirit

and other maybe obscure topics here, and I love hearing what, you, the best have

to say about these things. Thank you.

I have a feeling the phrase is a personal take, based on how the person views

the healthy mind-space(not just the head), and when it gets clouded by other

illegitimate views. The concurrent forum dealing with injury to spirit is right

along with the subjective aspect of pure yang.

Where Chris says, " do you (or who you got it from) take " shooting " in the

sense that

the water is striking, damaging the Yang (like with a bullet or arrow), or in

the sense of propelling, maybe overactively energizing the Yang, to the point of

wildness? " , yes even that far of a psychosis, but even less dramatically as it

can merely turn a person from a something or someone that could have been

beneficial.

I don't want to go on and on about subconcious secondary gains, or suspicion

becoming reality, and how they may or may not be primary pathogens of a

multitude of organic dysfunctions.

As concerns acupuncture, John's statement, " In my own experience, when Baihui

Du 20 is needled correctly on a sensitive individual, the sensation of water

flows down the spine. Upon needling Si Shen Cong, patients have told me that

they feel like rain is showering down on them. " , the operative condition is

maybe sensitive, maybe timing too. A person was needled on approximately LI11

and said they felt it going right into their brain. The needles just vibrated

there for a half hour, and she just closed her eyes and rode some pleasant

current, as in a trance, very beautiful. This medicine is so unusual and

precious. What was touched, happening, there?

If I have something more of clinical use, or if I get a response about water

shooting the pure yang, I'll post it if its ok. Thanks.

January 2, 2007

Hello,

I'm a new member of this list, so this is my first post.

will know me, as we are classmates.

Regarding the question on Ren Ying pulse taking, the folks at Working

Class Acupuncture in Portland use a pulse taking method called Jin Gei.

From what I understand, Jin Gei is the Japanese name for Ren Ying

(St9), and it works by comparing relative size and strength of the

carotid and radial pulses. Beyond that, I know very little. I do know

that the WCA folks learned it from a Japanese practitioner, and that

they consider it essential for diagnosis in their practice. I also

know that they offer workshops on how to do it -- I hope to either

attend one of the workshops in Portland or see if I can arrange for

them to give one here in San Francisco.

Cheers,

David Lesseps

On Jan 1, 2007, at 8:45 AM, wrote:

> Going back to what Z'ev wrote about in the failure of certain kinds of

> translations, I see a discrepancy between what Henry Lu translates and

> what

> the Nguyen Van Nghi group writes in the LingShu Chapter 9

> Paragraphs 1-6.

> This concerns pulse reading in relation to the Ren Ying pulse and the

> Qi Kuo

> pulse.

> Henry Lu interprets the Ren Ying pulse to be the pulse at the neck (ST

> 9-

> carotid artery),

> while the Qi Kuo is seen as the mouth of Qi at the wrist.

> NVN (Nguyen Van Nghi) interprets Ren Ying to be the left wrist pulse,

> with

> the Qi Kuo pulse located on the right wrist.

>

> NVN cautions not to interpret the RenYing pulse to be the same as the

> pulse

> on the neck - ST 9 (Ren Ying).

> I lean towards NVN's interpretation on this issue, but am curious how

> Henry

> Lu interpreted Ren Ying as the carotid artery pulse, as this is what I

> was

> trained in TCM school to believe also.

>

> These are two fundamentally different interpretations of these

> passages,

> which can mean all the world in difference in practice.

>

> Has anyone used this fascinating pulse system in practice? Thanks, K.

>

January 3, 2007

David,

Welcome to the group. It'll be great to have your expertise on tea

varieties.

And count me in if you bring the WCA crew down to SF from Portland for

workshops.

I wonder if countries outside of the United States are using the Working

Class Acupuncture model in their business practices.

In summary, lower fees allowing acupuncture sessions 2 or more times/ week

if needed with collective space shared by participants. ie. Chinese

hospital setting?

Is anyone practicing this methodology in Europe or elsewhere?

How is it working for you? Advantages/ Limitations?

Thanks, K.

On 1/1/07, davelcorp <davelcorp wrote:

>

> Hello,

> I'm a new member of this list, so this is my first post.

> will know me, as we are classmates.

>

> Regarding the question on Ren Ying pulse taking, the folks at Working

> Class Acupuncture in Portland use a pulse taking method called Jin Gei.

> From what I understand, Jin Gei is the Japanese name for Ren Ying

> (St9), and it works by comparing relative size and strength of the

> carotid and radial pulses. Beyond that, I know very little. I do know

> that the WCA folks learned it from a Japanese practitioner, and that

> they consider it essential for diagnosis in their practice. I also

> know that they offer workshops on how to do it -- I hope to either

> attend one of the workshops in Portland or see if I can arrange for

> them to give one here in San Francisco.

>

> Cheers,

> David Lesseps

>

> On Jan 1, 2007, at 8:45 AM, wrote:

>

> > Going back to what Z'ev wrote about in the failure of certain kinds of

> > translations, I see a discrepancy between what Henry Lu translates and

> > what

> > the Nguyen Van Nghi group writes in the LingShu Chapter 9

> > Paragraphs 1-6.

> > This concerns pulse reading in relation to the Ren Ying pulse and the

> > Qi Kuo

> > pulse.

> > Henry Lu interprets the Ren Ying pulse to be the pulse at the neck (ST

> > 9-

> > carotid artery),

> > while the Qi Kuo is seen as the mouth of Qi at the wrist.

> > NVN (Nguyen Van Nghi) interprets Ren Ying to be the left wrist pulse,

> > with

> > the Qi Kuo pulse located on the right wrist.

> >

> > NVN cautions not to interpret the RenYing pulse to be the same as the

> > pulse

> > on the neck - ST 9 (Ren Ying).

> > I lean towards NVN's interpretation on this issue, but am curious how

> > Henry

> > Lu interpreted Ren Ying as the carotid artery pulse, as this is what I

> > was

> > trained in TCM school to believe also.

> >

> > These are two fundamentally different interpretations of these

> > passages,

> > which can mean all the world in difference in practice.

> >

> > Has anyone used this fascinating pulse system in practice? Thanks, K.

> >

>

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of

a problem.'

Jiddu Krishnamurti

January 3, 2007

A couple of points:

- Jin Gei is the (not very exact) pronounciation of Japanese of the same

character as Ren Ying.

- I practice the Working Class Acupuncture model extensively when doing free

clinic outreach for migrant workers. As ~ 90% of them (help seekers, not the

whole population) suffer from back and/or knee pain, I use scalp needles and

have them perform certain movements to enhance the therapeutic effect. There

could be as many as 10 patients having needles on their scalps at the same time.

- Since the subject line still carries Water shooting the Pur Yang.... I

couldn't resist sharing what I read yesterday. I was able to figure out what the

following expressions mean in Chinese: " A time sex thing " " Fxxk the fruit area "

Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out what

Water Shooting the Pure Yang might mean with my extensive Chinese language

background.

Mike L.

<johnkokko wrote: