Guest guest Posted December 31, 2006 Report Share Posted December 31, 2006 I use these points with entry/exit blocks SI 19 and BL 1 VI 22 and GB 1 LI 20 and ST 1 etc. These can be very powerful if this block exist (e.g. very full pulse on small intestine and very empty on BL 1. Tonify SI 19 and BL1) I use a small needle 1/2 inch for BL1 (you have to be sure patient is aware that bruising can occur - actually it hasn't happened very often with my patients) I also use BL 2 for sinues and also ST 1 - again gingerly, shallow insertion. All the face points I have used for various reasons, Bells Palsey, sinsuses, headache. I would not be afraid to use them but I personally would needle very shallow and with shorter 1/2 needles, I like the red 1/2 inch Serins. Face needles are being used a lot in facial rejuvenation acupuncture. Took a workshop but haven't really used it. I also use direct moxa and free hand needles (no guide tube). I remember this discussion earlier. I guess it is what you get comfortable with in the clinic and in school. Of course I have to push beyond comfort levels, like everyone else - e.g. with more herb training. Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much. Take Care, Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Pete Theisen <petetheisen > On Saturday 30 December 2006 05:32, Ben-Yakir wrote: > > Hi Dr. Sagiv, > > Generally, these points are not used. The one time we tried it on a student > volunteer - she had a " panda eye " for months. That was just one point, and > the teacher did the needling. Bummer . . . > > > Hi Lynn, > > > > >>welcome, sagiv, and 1 non tcm question, what does sagiv mean? thx, lynn<< > > > > Thanks for your greetings. > > Sagiv means Mighty... and the next question someone might asks: " did it > > influence your life? " - it might if I was a small guy (in cm/inches) or a > > stupid one :-) ,and than you have " to fight your way in life " or a better > > solution - change your name accordingly. > > Let me take this opportunity and pose/ask a question to you and others in > > the list: " In animals I am using acupuncture points around the eyes (BL-01, > > BL-02, ST-01, GB-01, GB-14 etc) and the insertion is done very deep, how do > > you feel about acupuncturing in humans in these " kind-of-delicate " areas? > > is it done? > -- > Regards, > > Pete > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 On Sunday 31 December 2006 11:55, anne.crowley wrote: Hi Anne! Interesting about the shallow insertion. In the example I witnessed, the teacher pushed the eyeball aside and inserted the needle quite deep beside the eyeball. I believe that method is published in CAM. > I use these points with entry/exit blocks > > SI 19 and BL 1 > VI 22 and GB 1 > LI 20 and ST 1 > etc. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hi guys, >> In the example I witnessed, the teacher pushed the eyeball aside and inserted the needle quite deep beside the eyeball.<< and a good teacher! the same stands for the mentioned acupts in animals & even more - meaning the way you insert the needle. e.g for ST-01 - you have to push the eye deep(=posterior) and up(cranial/dorsal) and it performs by pushing with one finger of the-non-used-hand-for-holding-the-needle and that finger is put on the mid-lower part of the eye just below mid-pupil( but of course not on the eye itself but on the lower lid). The needle itself is inserted from up/dorsal and threaded down close to the zygomatic arch. All these measures are taken in order to avoid puncturing the eye ball itself. What about puncturing blood vessels? it seems that the needle can not penetrate the blood vessels walls, especially if threading the needle is done with very flexi-mobile movements of the therapist. At the same token - sometimes you would like to bleed the acupts, and that should be done from Bladder(foot taiyang) or from Stomach(foot yangming), and you should not bleed Gallbladder(foot shaoyang). The first 2 have lot of bld, little energy, and it is the other way around for GB. Bleeding the first 2 will give the eyes more clarity, but by doing GB we shall increase eyes fogginess. I must confess I just enjoy tremendously to compare & contrast human & animal acupuncture, I hope you too. I do believe that we can also learn from each other, and sometimes even reinforce TCM data by telling you about work done in animals. Sagiv. Dr. Sagiv Ben-Yakir BSC DVM(in honor) MRCVS CVA(IVAS) benyakir - Pete Theisen Chinese Medicine Monday, January 01, 2007 4:06 AM Re: BL 1 and Other Face Points On Sunday 31 December 2006 11:55, anne.crowley wrote: Hi Anne! Interesting about the shallow insertion. In the example I witnessed, the teacher pushed the eyeball aside and inserted the needle quite deep beside the eyeball. I believe that method is published in CAM. > I use these points with entry/exit blocks > > SI 19 and BL 1 > VI 22 and GB 1 > LI 20 and ST 1 > etc. -- Regards, Pete http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hi Anne, thanks for joining in, >>Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much.<< good point, but at the same token - do they agree for distal acupts in their legs? just think about doing KID-01 or TH-02 in a dog??? but surprisingly enough I am known in my clientele as " Dr. High " due to the extreme flow of endorphins release done in these animals...and there you have A CAT(!) sitting with needles in BL-01, BL-02, GB-01, GB-14, ST-01, ST-02, SI-18 bi-lateral and is taking a long nap in its cage...and keep in mind - some times I leave needles for 90 minutes. >>deep insertion<< I can only talk for myself, but for disc prolepses in dogs I am going deep as far as the transverse process of the spine skeleton... Now, I need some in put from the senior members od the list and even maybe the list owner - am I pushing too much? should I just sit down and enjoy the excellent of the others? pls, be honest with me - does this compare & contrast of human/animal TCM done by me is out of the scope of this list? Happy New Year to you, your loved ones, your animals, your kindred spirit, Sagiv. Dr. Sagiv Ben-Yakir BSC DVM(in honor) MRCVS CVA(IVAS) benyakir - anne.crowley Chinese Medicine Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:55 PM Re: BL 1 and Other Face Points I use these points with entry/exit blocks SI 19 and BL 1 VI 22 and GB 1 LI 20 and ST 1 etc. These can be very powerful if this block exist (e.g. very full pulse on small intestine and very empty on BL 1. Tonify SI 19 and BL1) I use a small needle 1/2 inch for BL1 (you have to be sure patient is aware that bruising can occur - actually it hasn't happened very often with my patients) I also use BL 2 for sinues and also ST 1 - again gingerly, shallow insertion. All the face points I have used for various reasons, Bells Palsey, sinsuses, headache. I would not be afraid to use them but I personally would needle very shallow and with shorter 1/2 needles, I like the red 1/2 inch Serins. Face needles are being used a lot in facial rejuvenation acupuncture. Took a workshop but haven't really used it. I also use direct moxa and free hand needles (no guide tube). I remember this discussion earlier. I guess it is what you get comfortable with in the clinic and in school. Of course I have to push beyond comfort levels, like everyone else - e.g. with more herb training. Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much. Take Care, Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Pete Theisen <petetheisen > On Saturday 30 December 2006 05:32, Ben-Yakir wrote: > > Hi Dr. Sagiv, > > Generally, these points are not used. The one time we tried it on a student > volunteer - she had a " panda eye " for months. That was just one point, and > the teacher did the needling. Bummer . . . > > > Hi Lynn, > > > > >>welcome, sagiv, and 1 non tcm question, what does sagiv mean? thx, lynn<< > > > > Thanks for your greetings. > > Sagiv means Mighty... and the next question someone might asks: " did it > > influence your life? " - it might if I was a small guy (in cm/inches) or a > > stupid one :-) ,and than you have " to fight your way in life " or a better > > solution - change your name accordingly. > > Let me take this opportunity and pose/ask a question to you and others in > > the list: " In animals I am using acupuncture points around the eyes (BL-01, > > BL-02, ST-01, GB-01, GB-14 etc) and the insertion is done very deep, how do > > you feel about acupuncturing in humans in these " kind-of-delicate " areas? > > is it done? > -- > Regards, > > Pete > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Sagiv: My response would be continue to do what works. It sounds like you are having a lot of success with the animals with deep insertion. Your one example was a blind animal was able to see. Well, then it sounds worth it. I would prefer a little sedation first - human or animal. My school, 5E Worsley school, taught gentle needling, certain fen depths on points, most shallow. We emphasized a lot of other things like intention, constitutional type - things that can be very powerful. Every students brings their own uniqueness to it. We all learn different continuing ed classes. Someone mentioned Jeffrey Yuen. His teachings are an excellent additition to any school' s training. I think we all work with our strengths, and then break out of our comfort zones and continue to learn and bring new things to the treatment room. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Ben-Yakir <benyakir > Hi Anne, thanks for joining in, > >>Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see > Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much.<< > good point, but at the same token - do they agree for distal acupts in their > legs? just think about doing KID-01 or TH-02 in a dog??? but surprisingly enough > I am known in my clientele as " Dr. High " due to the extreme flow of endorphins > release done in these animals...and there you have A CAT(!) sitting with needles > in BL-01, BL-02, GB-01, GB-14, ST-01, ST-02, SI-18 bi-lateral and is taking a > long nap in its cage...and keep in mind - some times I leave needles for 90 > minutes. > >>deep insertion<< I can only talk for myself, but for disc prolepses in dogs I > am going deep as far as the transverse process of the spine skeleton... > Now, I need some in put from the senior members od the list and even maybe the > list owner - am I pushing too much? should I just sit down and enjoy the > excellent of the others? pls, be honest with me - does this compare & contrast > of human/animal TCM done by me is out of the scope of this list? > Happy New Year to you, your loved ones, your animals, > your kindred spirit, > Sagiv. > > > Dr. Sagiv Ben-Yakir > BSC DVM(in honor) MRCVS CVA(IVAS) > benyakir > > - > anne.crowley > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:55 PM > Re: BL 1 and Other Face Points > > > I use these points with entry/exit blocks > > SI 19 and BL 1 > VI 22 and GB 1 > LI 20 and ST 1 > etc. > > These can be very powerful if this block exist (e.g. very full pulse on small > intestine and very empty on BL 1. Tonify SI 19 and BL1) I use a small needle 1/2 > inch for BL1 (you have to be sure patient is aware that bruising can occur - > actually it hasn't happened very often with my patients) > > I also use BL 2 for sinues and also ST 1 - again gingerly, shallow insertion. > > All the face points I have used for various reasons, Bells Palsey, sinsuses, > headache. I would not be afraid to use them but I personally would needle very > shallow and with shorter 1/2 needles, I like the red 1/2 inch Serins. > Face needles are being used a lot in facial rejuvenation acupuncture. Took a > workshop but haven't really used it. > > I also use direct moxa and free hand needles (no guide tube). I remember this > discussion earlier. I guess it is what you get comfortable with in the clinic > and in school. Of course I have to push beyond comfort levels, like everyone > else - e.g. with more herb training. > > Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see > Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much. > > Take Care, > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Pete Theisen <petetheisen > > On Saturday 30 December 2006 05:32, Ben-Yakir wrote: > > > > Hi Dr. Sagiv, > > > > Generally, these points are not used. The one time we tried it on a student > > volunteer - she had a " panda eye " for months. That was just one point, and > > the teacher did the needling. Bummer . . . > > > > > Hi Lynn, > > > > > > >>welcome, sagiv, and 1 non tcm question, what does sagiv mean? thx, > lynn<< > > > > > > Thanks for your greetings. > > > Sagiv means Mighty... and the next question someone might asks: " did it > > > influence your life? " - it might if I was a small guy (in cm/inches) or a > > > stupid one :-) ,and than you have " to fight your way in life " or a better > > > solution - change your name accordingly. > > > Let me take this opportunity and pose/ask a question to you and others in > > > the list: " In animals I am using acupuncture points around the eyes (BL-01, > > > BL-02, ST-01, GB-01, GB-14 etc) and the insertion is done very deep, how > do > > > you feel about acupuncturing in humans in these " kind-of-delicate " areas? > > > is it done? > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Anne, I have been using exit/entry points too, but I don't know what Lonnie means when he refers to the Yang pulses. I only learned the conventional: Lung, Spleen, Kidney Yang on the right, and Heart, Liver, Kidney Yin on the left. Where does your teaching place the Yang pulses? I use lime green Seirin's on BL1 or St 1 and I haven't had any problems yet, but I barely insert. Thanks, Gabrielle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2007 Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 Hi Anne, In TCVM we do have representatives of the different schools (e.g Dr. Fleming for 5E Worsley school etc), and for sure we are having lectures by Jeffrey Yuen, Tan etc just to mention a few. Myself, I have a different status as I am also a teacher, and that means that in our school (for complementary & alternative veterinary medicine[CAVM] in Wingate Institute, Israel) I do not have the " pleasure " to go " my personal way " , I have to be able to teach 5E, 8P, Yuen concepts or Tan concept at the same degree of enthusiasm & devotion. I did this specific declaration in order that you & others on the list will not get the wrong idea about TCVM, you can find the different schools of thoughts in vet TCMedicine as in human TCMedicine, you have to be able to teach all of them, perform research and clinical activities using all of them, and eventually each student and graduate will be able to pick up what he/she finds fit him/her the most, or for the clinical case at hand as you just wrote.Thanks a lot for sharing,Sagiv. Dr. Sagiv Ben-Yakir BSC DVM(in honor) MRCVS CVA(IVAS) benyakir - anne.crowley Chinese Medicine Monday, January 01, 2007 6:01 PM Re: BL 1 and Other Face Points Sagiv: My response would be continue to do what works. It sounds like you are having a lot of success with the animals with deep insertion. Your one example was a blind animal was able to see. Well, then it sounds worth it. I would prefer a little sedation first - human or animal. My school, 5E Worsley school, taught gentle needling, certain fen depths on points, most shallow. We emphasized a lot of other things like intention, constitutional type - things that can be very powerful. Every students brings their own uniqueness to it. We all learn different continuing ed classes. Someone mentioned Jeffrey Yuen. His teachings are an excellent additition to any school' s training. I think we all work with our strengths, and then break out of our comfort zones and continue to learn and bring new things to the treatment room. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- Ben-Yakir <benyakir > Hi Anne, thanks for joining in, > >>Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see > Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much.<< > good point, but at the same token - do they agree for distal acupts in their > legs? just think about doing KID-01 or TH-02 in a dog??? but surprisingly enough > I am known in my clientele as " Dr. High " due to the extreme flow of endorphins > release done in these animals...and there you have A CAT(!) sitting with needles > in BL-01, BL-02, GB-01, GB-14, ST-01, ST-02, SI-18 bi-lateral and is taking a > long nap in its cage...and keep in mind - some times I leave needles for 90 > minutes. > >>deep insertion<< I can only talk for myself, but for disc prolepses in dogs I > am going deep as far as the transverse process of the spine skeleton... > Now, I need some in put from the senior members od the list and even maybe the > list owner - am I pushing too much? should I just sit down and enjoy the > excellent of the others? pls, be honest with me - does this compare & contrast > of human/animal TCM done by me is out of the scope of this list? > Happy New Year to you, your loved ones, your animals, > your kindred spirit, > Sagiv. > > > Dr. Sagiv Ben-Yakir > BSC DVM(in honor) MRCVS CVA(IVAS) > benyakir > > - > anne.crowley > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:55 PM > Re: BL 1 and Other Face Points > > > I use these points with entry/exit blocks > > SI 19 and BL 1 > VI 22 and GB 1 > LI 20 and ST 1 > etc. > > These can be very powerful if this block exist (e.g. very full pulse on small > intestine and very empty on BL 1. Tonify SI 19 and BL1) I use a small needle 1/2 > inch for BL1 (you have to be sure patient is aware that bruising can occur - > actually it hasn't happened very often with my patients) > > I also use BL 2 for sinues and also ST 1 - again gingerly, shallow insertion. > > All the face points I have used for various reasons, Bells Palsey, sinsuses, > headache. I would not be afraid to use them but I personally would needle very > shallow and with shorter 1/2 needles, I like the red 1/2 inch Serins. > Face needles are being used a lot in facial rejuvenation acupuncture. Took a > workshop but haven't really used it. > > I also use direct moxa and free hand needles (no guide tube). I remember this > discussion earlier. I guess it is what you get comfortable with in the clinic > and in school. Of course I have to push beyond comfort levels, like everyone > else - e.g. with more herb training. > > Wow , the deep insertion with animals. I guess it's effective but I can't see > Teddy, my toy poodle or Snowflake, my Bischon, liking that too much. > > Take Care, > > Anne > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > Pete Theisen <petetheisen > > On Saturday 30 December 2006 05:32, Ben-Yakir wrote: > > > > Hi Dr. Sagiv, > > > > Generally, these points are not used. The one time we tried it on a student > > volunteer - she had a " panda eye " for months. That was just one point, and > > the teacher did the needling. Bummer . . . > > > > > Hi Lynn, > > > > > > >>welcome, sagiv, and 1 non tcm question, what does sagiv mean? thx, > lynn<< > > > > > > Thanks for your greetings. > > > Sagiv means Mighty... and the next question someone might asks: " did it > > > influence your life? " - it might if I was a small guy (in cm/inches) or a > > > stupid one :-) ,and than you have " to fight your way in life " or a better > > > solution - change your name accordingly. > > > Let me take this opportunity and pose/ask a question to you and others in > > > the list: " In animals I am using acupuncture points around the eyes (BL-01, > > > BL-02, ST-01, GB-01, GB-14 etc) and the insertion is done very deep, how > do > > > you feel about acupuncturing in humans in these " kind-of-delicate " areas? > > > is it done? > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Pete > > http://www.pete-theisen.com/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Sorry Gabrielle, I didn't see this until I was cleaning up email. My teaching is that on the left HT, LR, KI at the deep level, and correspondlingy SI, GB, and BL at the superficial (not to be confused with pulse quality) level. Closer to the surface, might be a better choice of words. On the right LU, SP, PC at the deeper level and correspondingly LI, ST, and TH at the surface or first level. Now on entry exits, the pulse has to be full on the meridian where you use the exit point, e.g SP 21 and deficient or almost not there on the meridan where you use the entry, HT 1. You tonify SP 21 and then Tonify HT1. These entry exits can be very powerful, shift on the pulses and (often) the patient notices a big shift in their energy I once heard this block described as a pipe where water is backed up and is forceful because it wants to flow. When you tonify the point it releases the energy and then you tonify the entry point so it brings it into the next meridian. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " gabriellemathieu " <gabriellemathieu > Anne, > > I have been using exit/entry points too, but I don't know what Lonnie means when > he refers > to the Yang pulses. I only learned the conventional: Lung, Spleen, Kidney Yang > on the right, > and Heart, Liver, Kidney Yin on the left. > Where does your teaching place the Yang pulses? > I use lime green Seirin's on BL1 or St 1 and I haven't had any problems yet, but > I barely insert. > Thanks, > Gabrielle > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Hi Anne, Where can one learn more about the entry/ exit points system? This wasn't part of my TCM training. Thanks. On 1/4/07, anne.crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > Sorry Gabrielle, I didn't see this until I was cleaning up email. > > My teaching is that on the left HT, LR, KI at the deep level, and > correspondlingy SI, GB, and BL at the superficial (not to be confused with > pulse quality) level. Closer to the surface, might be a better choice of > words. > On the right LU, SP, PC at the deeper level and correspondingly LI, ST, > and TH at the surface or first level. > > Now on entry exits, the pulse has to be full on the meridian where you use > the exit point, e.g SP 21 and deficient or almost not there on the meridan > where you use the entry, HT 1. You tonify SP 21 and then Tonify HT1. These > entry exits can be very powerful, shift on the pulses and (often) the > patient notices a big shift in their energy > > I once heard this block described as a pipe where water is backed up and > is forceful because it wants to flow. When you tonify the point it releases > the energy and then you tonify the entry point so it brings it into the next > meridian. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " gabriellemathieu " <gabriellemathieu<gabriellemathieu%40> > > > > Anne, > > > > I have been using exit/entry points too, but I don't know what Lonnie > means when > > he refers > > to the Yang pulses. I only learned the conventional: Lung, Spleen, > Kidney Yang > > on the right, > > and Heart, Liver, Kidney Yin on the left. > > Where does your teaching place the Yang pulses? > > I use lime green Seirin's on BL1 or St 1 and I haven't had any problems > yet, but > > I barely insert. > > Thanks, > > Gabrielle > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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